Aaron Francis

In today's episode, I had an emotional conversation with Aaron Francis, the founder of TryHard Studios, and a powerhouse in the PHP/Laravel Community. Aaron went to school to become an accountant, but later found love the love for technology that propels him to these days. He shared with us an inspiring example of how he persisted in his faith, which he considers irresistible, through hardship and periods of questioning. Learn more about Aaron Francis: https://x.com/aarondfrancis HighPerformanceSQLite.com http://tryhardstudios.com

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Transcript

Glauber

00:00:04 – 00:00:11

Aaron Aaron Francis, man. Finally, you're here. Thank you so much for coming. I've been looking forward to today.

Aaron

00:00:11 – 00:00:20

Yeah. Of course. I'm excited to be here. I mean, I think most people would imagine we're talking about SQLite, but today, we're not. We're talking about something else.

Glauber

00:00:21 – 00:00:23

Is SQLite a religion?

Aaron

00:00:24 – 00:00:27

I mean, if you read their code of conduct, yes. It is. Yeah.

Glauber

00:00:27 – 00:00:29

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

Glauber

00:00:29 – 00:01:02

And look, you usually, you don't know. I mean, in many cases, you don't know, who believes in what, who, you know, who sides with, this or that. In some cases, you don't know. I think this is part of the reason I was I'm doing this podcast is that, like, as as I said in the introduction, when I tweeted about it, for almost 20 years, I have been a atheist and a very staunch edit. In fact, I had very low opinion, never in public, which is something she like, but you you kinda think lowly about how can this person believe this kind of stuff.

Glauber

00:01:03 – 00:01:24

And I had no idea when when you responded to that saying, I would love to be a guest. I we just did not know that you would consider yourself a religious person. In fact, Michael, who works with me that you know, thought that you were a he actually thought that you were religious. He thought you were Mormon because you are so nice, and Mormons are so nice. So Mormons are so nice.

Glauber

00:01:26 – 00:01:45

So because, you know, if you play, I think you you are, again, contending for the the title of the nicest guy on the Internet. But here's the thing, let's not assume that everybody in the audience, knows who you are, although I would believe, that most do. Tell us a little bit more about yourself professionally. And then Mhmm. From that, like, you're not a Mormon.

Glauber

00:01:45 – 00:01:49

So what are you and and Mhmm. Who's Aaron Francis on a personal level?

Aaron

00:01:49 – 00:01:58

App? Yeah. Totally. So like you said, my name is Aaron Francis. I'm a software developer, by trade, by education.

Aaron

00:01:58 – 00:02:20

I'm actually an accountant, but I have put I've put the spreadsheets far, far behind me, which is so much better. So, yeah, I, I am a software developer, but I've started to do a lot more education recently. And so I'm making a lot of educational videos. I've done a few courses. I'm working on a course right now.

Aaron

00:02:20 – 00:02:24

This may be news to you, Glad, but I'm working on a course with a company called Terso. It's

Glauber

00:02:24 – 00:02:25

just great.

Aaron

00:02:25 – 00:02:53

It's yeah. It's a great a great company. I'm doing I'm doing a SQLite course, that launches on Thursday. And so, yeah, me and a friend are out on our own doing our own, business, of which, you know, education is is a big part. I live in Dallas, Texas with, my beautiful wife and 4 perfect children, 2 sets of twins, 2 boy, girl sets of twins.

Aaron

00:02:53 – 00:03:03

So So I have, 2 3 year olds and surprisingly 27 month olds. So life is very, very busy, but also very, very good.

Glauber

00:03:05 – 00:03:18

Aaron, one of the when I learned about this, I mean, you were tweeting way back then about being a parent. I come from a family, from a large family. I think I think you could say that I come from a large family. My father had 12 siblings.

Aaron

00:03:18 – 00:03:19

It's a large family.

Glauber

00:03:19 – 00:03:31

Although although one of them was eaten by an alligator, so I never got to meet him. And, it's true. It's true story. But, like, you know, we want this to be about you. Here's here's why I'm saying this.

Glauber

00:03:34 – 00:03:51

Statistically, this is something that I've said many times. Statistically, if you have a family this large, everything happens. If you think about something, it happens in your family because you just had that many people. I have an uncle that has 3 sets of boy girl twins.

Aaron

00:03:51 – 00:03:53

No. And

Glauber

00:03:53 – 00:04:05

and you are getting there. You are you are getting there. You are getting there, man. Like, when I heard your story, it was like, people say it's impossible, but Aaron Aaron is getting there. Aaron got us the first 2 sets.

Glauber

00:04:05 – 00:04:07

If you have another set, talk to

Aaron

00:04:07 – 00:04:09

me or introduce me. No. No. No. No.

Aaron

00:04:09 – 00:04:14

No. I need to go visit the doctor. We are we're done. Yeah. Two sets of twins is

Glauber

00:04:14 – 00:04:14

a lot.

Aaron

00:04:14 – 00:04:17

I cannot imagine 3 sets of twins.

Glauber

00:04:17 – 00:04:22

Oh, yeah. Hello. And and Tina is here saying hi. Hi, Tina. Hello.

Glauber

00:04:23 – 00:04:46

Look, Aaron. But let's let's now jump into the the, you know, the other part of the discussion. You although you are a nice person, probably the nicest guy on the Internet and the way nice people fight is awesome because you and Kent were fighting to see who is the nicest person on the Internet, And you're all you're saying no. Kent is obviously the nicest person, and Kent is saying no. That that is Aaron.

Glauber

00:04:46 – 00:04:53

But it's surprising that you can be that nice not being a Mormon. So what are you and, you know, what are how would you summarize your core beliefs?

Aaron

00:04:54 – 00:05:12

Oh, man. That's hysterical. So I would summarize my core beliefs as, evangelical Christian. I think historically, I would have been more closely aligned with, what we would call Baptist. Mhmm.

Aaron

00:05:12 – 00:06:00

But this I don't know where where we start diving in, but, I don't really associate myself with, like, the Southern Baptist convention or anything like that. I think there have been some, they've been slightly problematic. And so I would say I'm an evangelical Christian, Christian Bible believing Christian, but not really associated with like the Southern Baptist Convention, which is kind of what you would expect down here in Texas, So it's like, we would call it a Bible church. So it's like, we would call it a Bible church. That's kinda what I grew up in, which again was almost Baptist, but wasn't associated with the, the denomination.

Aaron

00:06:00 – 00:06:15

And so I grew up in that, and now I currently attend, like, a nondenominational evangelical church still. So that's kinda that's kinda my my background and where I'm at now.

Glauber

00:06:16 – 00:06:26

Awesome. So you grew up like that. You you can you raised your family. You you were always a a Christian. So that's essentially what I'm reading here.

Glauber

00:06:26 – 00:06:36

You didn't have, like, the like like, my self described period in which, you believe something and then you don't believe something, and and so your story is more stable than that.

Aaron

00:06:37 – 00:07:09

Yeah. I guess you could characterize it that way. I think there have definitely been there have definitely been periods where I'm, like, not as not as, feeling quite as close to, as close to God as I have. But Mhmm. Through ebbs and flows, I would say that, yes, I have always since I was a kid, I mean, I think, you know, I think when I was 5, 6, 7, something like that, that's when I first, like, felt like I understood and believed.

Aaron

00:07:09 – 00:07:24

And then, you know, what does a 5, 6, 7 year old know? But I never really, like, had a long period of wandering or or being away from the church even if I did have periods of, like, doubt and, despair, we'll say.

Glauber

00:07:25 – 00:07:54

Yeah. No. Which is which is interesting because, I mean, not not to, I think our experiences, I don't know if it this is relevant or not and maybe this is something for us to explore. You just mentioned, and I only learned that about you recently, that by trade you are an accountant. So so you've been around numbers, but I understand, like, that in an in an accounting degree, like, when you when you're trying to be in accounting, do you a lot of background in sciences, stem, etcetera, like physics and biology?

Glauber

00:07:55 – 00:07:58

Were you ever interested in in this kind of stuff or or not?

Aaron

00:07:58 – 00:08:17

No. Not super interested in Mhmm. In the science side of it. I think I have always been interested in the, kind of the cold, hard logic of programming. And I, you know, I picked up, I picked up, programming when I was like, gotta be 10 or 11, something like that.

Aaron

00:08:17 – 00:08:57

And, you know, ever since then, I've just been enamored by, software development. I found that in in, I got a I started out getting a business degree and I took the first few accounting classes and I was like, holy crap. This stuff freaking rules. And I I just love I just fell in love with accounting, and I found it very similar to programming in the, in, like, the logical puzzle, parts of my brain and adored accounting all the way through completely rational, completely logical. And then I got into the big firm and was like, you just put these numbers on that form and those numbers on this form.

Aaron

00:08:57 – 00:09:01

And I was like, this is awful. So I never I never got super into, like

Glauber

00:09:01 – 00:09:08

I I I was I was about to say that you are probably you are probably the first person I met in my life that likes accounting.

Aaron

00:09:08 – 00:09:27

I love it. I love, love, love, and I still love financial accounting. I think it is extremely logical and beautiful. I still have a website where I tutor financial accounting for college students. I was, you know, when I was in school, I tutored a lot of accounting and I just, it's it's a delight.

Aaron

00:09:27 – 00:09:28

It just makes sense to me.

Glauber

00:09:29 – 00:09:52

That's awesome. And and but then again, you you you didn't have this training in the sciences that you will get. For example, I've been to engineering school, so it was very deep in physics, and you got people talking about, like, how how the world is is a mechanical thing. And and and if I also personally, always had a lot of interest in in that as well. Biology, not that much, but you would read something here and there.

Glauber

00:09:53 – 00:10:33

And one one of the things that led me it was a again, my my story is is way more complex than that, and I don't want this to be about me. But just just to contextualize, one of the things that led me, we could say today, astray, was this idea that, like, hey. We live in this it seems to us that we live in this mechanistic, rational, logical way. And the idea, of God, which can be construed in many ways, but, in in some sense, at some level, is just this idea that, you know, there is this being that interferes, with this mechanistic order, and is doing things that are supposedly miraculous. Mhmm.

Glauber

00:10:33 – 00:10:42

And and seems to contradict that. And have you ever questioned yourself in that direction or or is this not something that would cross your mind?

Aaron

00:10:42 – 00:10:47

No. I absolutely have. I absolutely of course, I have. Yes. I totally have.

Aaron

00:10:47 – 00:11:14

And I think, I think the there is like, there is a hard thing. There's a hard part about believing. Like there really is something hard about believing. You have to, there are many hard things. 1 is you have to have a right view of yourself and a right view of what you understand God to be.

Aaron

00:11:14 – 00:11:34

I understand God to be the God of the Bible. And so when I look at what is a proper view of myself and a proper view of God, I am very lowly. I am not the most important thing in the universe. I, honestly, I live to preach the gospel, die and be forgotten. And it's like, wow.

Aaron

00:11:34 – 00:11:49

That you know, everybody's talking about, oh, I wanna I wanna be remembered for a 1000 years. First of all, good luck. Like, good freaking luck. I cannot remember anybody except maybe the bad guys from the past 1000 years, you know? So good good luck with that.

Aaron

00:11:49 – 00:12:08

Like, you know, Ozymandias, look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. And it's like just a desert and some broken feet in the desert. Like, so go we all. That's what I constantly say, like, so go we all, we are all going to be forgotten. And it's like, oh, that's, that's kind of depressing, right?

Aaron

00:12:08 – 00:12:37

But when you put it in perspective of, like, my, what I believe my my mission here on earth is is to to know God and follow his will. It's like, okay. That makes, like, having a right understanding of where I am in relation to God of the universe, and this is what I believe, makes like takes a lot of that pressure off. I don't have to be remembered for a 1000 years. I know what my responsibility is.

Aaron

00:12:38 – 00:13:04

And that works its way out in several different areas. My responsibility is to love care, provide for my family. My responsibility is to make earth look more like heaven, by being kind and generous and caring towards people, to care for the needy, to care for the marginalized, to care for the poor. And like, that is my responsibility. And if I'm never remembered after, you know, after hopefully my grandkids will know me, I just pray that I'm able to meet my grandchildren.

Aaron

00:13:04 – 00:13:40

But if I'm never remembered after that, but I've done my job, I've done my duty, that's all I want. Like that that is wonderful. And so, yes, it is hard for me to imagine, like, a God of the universe tinkering with the lives of the mortals, but, like, that is actually what I believe, that God exists and I am able not only does he exist, I am able to know him, which is like, holy crap. You're able to know the God of the universe and he cares for you so much that he sent his only son to die. And like, these are things I actually believe, and they sound crazy.

Aaron

00:13:40 – 00:13:58

And so, yeah, it's I mean, it is kind of unexplainable the way by which the faith, like, manifests itself. And I think that is a working of, a supernatural working of God himself that allows that faith to exist.

Glauber

00:13:59 – 00:14:08

When you say that you think this is just something that comes to you, Is that is that what you imply when

Aaron

00:14:10 – 00:14:39

yes. I think so to get a little bit, to get a little bit theological, I think that God has chosen me and his grace is irresistible. And so because he has chosen me and his grace is irresistible, I am one of the elect. I am a saved person because God chose for me to be saved. So it is by faith alone and even the faith is not my own.

Aaron

00:14:39 – 00:14:43

It was given to me by God. And so, yeah, it just Yeah.

Glauber

00:14:44 – 00:15:01

That that's super interesting because, I mean, I I I know nothing, theologically, and even socially about your church and about your own particular. But this sounds like exactly I could be talking to John Calvin here if John Calvin is. Right? Yeah. Is that is is that is that fair?

Glauber

00:15:01 – 00:15:03

Is that a first person? Yeah.

Aaron

00:15:03 – 00:15:13

Yeah. Yeah. He he probably knows less about PHP than I do, but, yes. He but he knows more about he knows more about Calvinism than I do since, you know, he's the father of it. So yeah.

Glauber

00:15:13 – 00:15:23

Yeah. So how how how do you square that? So, like, is this just something because, by the way, this is not how I view this at all. Mhmm. And and it it could mean that I am not saved.

Glauber

00:15:23 – 00:16:08

I guess, many Calvinists could say that, that, you know, there's always this discussion who's right and who's wrong, and I believe this and you believe that. But and and, again, my my ultimate opinion on that is that there are different kinds of people on different kinds of paths and, with different kinds of visions, and and we are a diverse species for a reason. We have to believe that, you know, if if if things have a reason, God may have and probably had a reason to make us all different than than each other with different perspectives and appealing to different, parts of of of the human experience. But so, I mean, I I don't I I would love to know more about that because that's not, again, an experience that I share. It's just something that you feel inside you, and that and that's what you're saying.

Glauber

00:16:08 – 00:16:13

Okay. You just you just believe those things to be true, and you know those things to be true because you feel like it.

Aaron

00:16:15 – 00:17:00

Yeah. I mean, at at a most basic level, yes. I think so I think there is something, there is something about experiencing God that cannot be, it almost cannot be intellectually understood. Like, having an experience with the living God is kind of a supernatural thing that is hard to just like reason your way into. I think you will find, one will find if you approach, if you approach the Bible with a rational, logical, reasonable mind, it is still, it is still effective.

Aaron

00:17:00 – 00:17:39

So it's not like I'm, I'm, I'm not asking anyone, I'm not, I'm not actually asking anyone to do anything, but I'm not suggesting that you should suspend your logic or your reason when you're approaching things of religion. Absolutely not. Not at all. What I am saying is that approach it approach it in a highly rigorous, logical, reasoned manner, and also hope and pray and beg for an experience with the living God. Pray for an experience to meet the supernatural, and then your logic and reason will be a good a good foundation and a bedrock.

Aaron

00:17:39 – 00:18:10

But you will understand on a different level when you have that relationship with God. And that is the thing that it's like, that's the thing that, like, you can say to another person all you want, like, you should believe, but it's just, it's like, I can tell you my story. And I think my story is compelling. And I believe that I have, like, I have met God and I am one of the chosen people. I believe that.

Aaron

00:18:11 – 00:18:28

And that to me is the more compelling story than, like, trying to, you know, bonk somebody on the head with the Bible and be like, you're so stupid. You gotta believe this. I'm like, woah, woah, hang on. Let me just tell you how it happened in my life. And I'm happy to, like, I mean, I I'm happy to to share and explain So,

Glauber

00:18:28 – 00:18:41

Erin, I I was not I was going yeah. I was going there. We we hear now at the safe podcast where I wanna surface those experiences. Please tell us a experience in which you've you've had this connection.

Aaron

00:18:41 – 00:19:00

Yeah. I mean, it's it's a little, it's gonna take me a second, and it's gonna get it's gonna get a little a little misty in here. This is not a story. It's a story that I've shared, but not, in this format before. So just I'll just keep going.

Aaron

00:19:00 – 00:19:02

I'll just keep going until you got me.

Glauber

00:19:02 – 00:19:18

But but first, thank you again. Again, this is exactly what I wanna do here, and we are delighted. And I think the audience is the same. Just before you start, because as you said, like, you you're going, right in. There are a couple of people on Twitter saying, like, I'm I feel like I'm really gonna love this chat.

Glauber

00:19:18 – 00:19:36

So, I mean, this is the people that we know that love you. Other people saying the same thing. So we we have 650, 652 people at the moment connected on x. If you have questions for for Aaron, please feel free to drop your question in the chat. I will make sure that is conveyed.

Glauber

00:19:37 – 00:19:44

We don't see those questions here on StreamYard, but I will make sure that Aaron sees them. Aaron, let us walk us through your your experience.

Aaron

00:19:44 – 00:19:55

Let me tell you a story. And just know that, I am prone to crying, so nothing unusual is going to happen if I start crying. I actually don't cry at all in the sequelite course, but this is a little bit this is a

Glauber

00:19:55 – 00:19:56

little bit different.

Aaron

00:19:56 – 00:20:16

So so brace yourself. So we had a lot of trouble getting pregnant, which is kind of, you know, surprising given we've got so many kids. We had a lot of trouble getting pregnant. And that was a very, like like, if anybody has ever been through that, you understand, like, how

Glauber

00:20:16 – 00:20:28

I had. I had. And we had a miscarriage in in on the way through. So, I mean, we had Exactly. It took us it took us almost 3 years from the time we decided, let's have kids to the point that we had our first one with a miscarriage in the middle.

Glauber

00:20:28 – 00:20:32

Fully, you know I I I I fully connect on that.

Aaron

00:20:32 – 00:20:53

Yep. So you you understand you understand that that pain. And so, you know, we had been trying for a long time and it was very, very, discouraging and emotionally fraught. And we, you know, we had a few miscarriages. And then finally we got, we got news that we were pregnant.

Aaron

00:20:53 – 00:21:13

And this is like, I feel like this goodness, this must have been like very beginning of the pandemic. Because I wasn't allowed I wasn't allowed to go to anything. Like, I none of the appointments I was allowed to go to. I had to stay at home, and so I was like, this is awful. And so we found out we were pregnant, and my wife called me and was like, hey.

Aaron

00:21:13 – 00:21:27

Good news. Like, they saw they saw the, they saw the egg in the right place because we had had an ectopic where it didn't make it to the right place. The egg is in the right place. It's great news. However and I was like, oh, shoot.

Aaron

00:21:27 – 00:21:45

What's coming next? I can't, like, I can't handle what's coming next. However, they saw 3 eggs were having triplets. And I just, like, I started laughing and I started crying and I was like, okay, we can do this. Like, just come home.

Aaron

00:21:46 – 00:21:49

We can do this. I'm laughing. She's crying. She's laughing. I'm crying.

Aaron

00:21:49 – 00:22:05

And it's like, oh, what are we gonna do? So we found out we're having triplets. And, you know, it's like, holy crap, we don't have the space. We don't have the money. We don't have the anything, and we realize, like, wait, maybe this is perfect.

Aaron

00:22:05 – 00:22:43

Like, we get a full, full family in one go, Like everybody's the same age. Everybody's gonna be like, it's what an insane thing to happen, but we're so delighted. And so over the course of, you know, many, many months, we like start wrapping our heads around, oh my gosh, we're gonna have, we're gonna have triplets. And, like, this is so exciting. And it gets to the point where it's like, maybe 26 weeks in and we start to there starts to be some complications with 1 of, one of the kiddos.

Aaron

00:22:43 – 00:23:17

And, you know, I think by God's grace was able to go with Jennifer to an appointment. And we, we went into the appointment and they're doing the sonogram and the tech, you know, the tech leaves without saying much and it's like, okay. This is kinda scary. And the doctor comes in and she says, your little girl is gone. And

Glauber

00:23:19 – 00:23:29

I'm sorry, man. This part this part is the worst part. It's the worst part. When you know there's something there, and you're just waiting for them to confirm it. And so sorry that it happened to you.

Aaron

00:23:29 – 00:23:46

And so, we we lost our our triplet. And so, at that point, it's like, why? What is the point? I didn't want triplets. I didn't want triplets.

Aaron

00:23:46 – 00:24:02

Then I got triplets and I'm like, yes, I can do this. Like, I am so excited. This is perfect. And then it's just gone. Like where's where's why?

Aaron

00:24:02 – 00:24:39

What is the point of this? And so this is like, you know, we're, we're 26 weeks in and we've we're in this we're in this spot where, like, she's still carrying the twins, you know? And and it's like, we named her Hannah. Hannah is still in there with her brother and sister, and we've gotta just carry we've gotta carry her out the whole way. And so there's no there's no procedure.

Aaron

00:24:39 – 00:24:52

There's no anything because the twins are in there. And so Hannah is just in there. Hannah's just in there with her brother and sister. And throughout this time, I'm like, I'm pretty mad. I'll be honest.

Aaron

00:24:52 – 00:24:54

I'm I'm pretty mad to God.

Glauber

00:24:55 – 00:24:56

Well, who wouldn't be, man? Just,

Aaron

00:24:58 – 00:25:18

So, like, give me something I don't want. Give me time to get like, wrap my head around it and get to a place where I'm excited. Like, you gave me a challenge that I didn't want, and I feel like I did my job and, like, came to terms with it and then went beyond and got excited about it. And then you take it away. Like, what are we doing here?

Aaron

00:25:18 – 00:25:51

What is, what, what is the point? And so I'm wrestling with this and I'm like having a hard time. I'm having a hard time, like, reading and reading the bible and praying, and I'm like, I I just I'm having a hard time. And And so we've got, you know, another, whatever that is, 26 to, what is it, 39 or 40 weeks. So we've got 13 or 14 weeks that we're just in this limbo period where we're looking forward to this incredibly complicated day where we're going to meet our twins and also deliver our triplets.

Aaron

00:25:52 – 00:26:28

It's like, man, I'm not ready for that. That's for sure. And so during this during this process, I'm like, I'm talking to friends, I'm talking to my pastor, I'm meeting with, I'm meeting with a friend weekly, to like help me process through this. And throughout this time, I'm just doing my best to read anything at all because it's all so like empty. And I start reading, I start reading the story of Lazarus.

Aaron

00:26:28 – 00:26:29

Great story.

Glauber

00:26:29 – 00:26:30

Mhmm.

Aaron

00:26:30 – 00:26:50

Great story. Everybody, everybody probably knows it, but, you know, Lazarus dies, Jesus brings him back. Like that's the punchline. But the story's a little bit richer than that. And so, I'm reading this story, and this is this is where I I felt like I heard the audible voice of God.

Aaron

00:26:52 – 00:27:12

And so I'm reading this story about, Jesus is off in some other town, and his disciples are like, hey, man. That guy you love, Lazarus, he's sick. We should go see him. And Jesus is like, I'm gonna stay here. I'm gonna stay here for a couple days.

Aaron

00:27:12 – 00:27:30

And Lazarus dies. And you're like, come on, man. You should have seen that coming. Lazarus dies. And so Jesus goes to, the town where Lazarus lives and, these 2 women, Mary and Martha, Mary and Martha come out.

Aaron

00:27:32 – 00:27:42

Mary and Martha come out to meet Jesus on the road. In fact, Martha comes out to meet Jesus on the road. And so there are a couple characters in this story. Right? We've got Jesus.

Aaron

00:27:42 – 00:27:56

We've got Lazarus. We've got Mary and Martha. Martha comes out and she's like, if you had been here, my brother wouldn't have died, but I understand that you hold all things in your hands and I trust you, basically. Right?

Glauber

00:27:56 – 00:27:57

Yeah.

Aaron

00:27:57 – 00:28:12

So Martha comes out with this immediate belief of like, hey man, if you'd been here, you wouldn't have died, but it's okay. I understand you're God. Like, I get it. That's cool. And I look at Martha and I'm like, I don't I don't feel that.

Aaron

00:28:12 – 00:28:33

I don't see myself I don't see myself as Martha. I wish I I wish I did. I wish I looked at God and said, like, if you had been here, Hannah would be alive, but I understand, like, you're God and I'm not. And I didn't see I wasn't there. I didn't believe it.

Aaron

00:28:33 – 00:28:45

I didn't see myself and Martha. So then we get to Mary. Right? And, somebody had to go get Mary because Mary's not coming out. And I'm like, all right, now we're talking.

Aaron

00:28:46 – 00:28:59

Like now, now we're talking. And Mary comes out and they're like, hey, the teacher wants to see you. And she's like, great. I'm gonna go out there. And Mary comes out and Mary says the same thing, but slightly different.

Aaron

00:29:00 – 00:29:19

Mary says, if you had been here She says, if you had been here, my brother wouldn't have died. And that's it. That's all she says. And I'm like, yes. I am Mary.

Aaron

00:29:19 – 00:29:36

I am bawling at the feet of the living God and saying, this is your fault. Like, I get that. I feel that in my bones, Mary. This is the same Mary that broke the perfume and poured it on Jesus's feet. And so it's like, Mary feels things pretty deeply.

Aaron

00:29:36 – 00:29:50

And I'm kinda, I'm kinda team Mary. Like I feel like Mary a lot of the time. So Mary comes out and she accosts him. She says, if you had been here, my brother wouldn't have died. And I'm like, yeah, I'm Mary.

Aaron

00:29:51 – 00:30:03

If you had been here, my daughter would be alive. Where were you? And, I thought, this is a good story. I see myself here. This is a good story.

Aaron

00:30:03 – 00:30:28

The story goes on, and I'm thinking, I'm I'm Mary. I see I see my emotions. I see my anger with God. I am I am able, as a side note, I am able to approach the God of the universe and say, this is your fault, and God can handle that. Like, he is able to handle my anger.

Aaron

00:30:28 – 00:30:54

He's able to handle my misunderstandings. He's able to handle my emotions. And so the God that created the universe and holds all things together in his hands and nothing happens apart from God's will, and the universe is created by the breath of his mouth, and I'm able to say, where were you? And he's like, I'm here. I'm like, man, what a great story.

Aaron

00:30:54 – 00:31:22

But it goes on. It goes on. And Jesus Jesus sees the bible says that Jesus sees that the women were moved and the people were moved and they were weeping and Jesus wept. And Jesus Jesus openly weeps. And he goes to, he goes to the tomb where Lazarus has been laid, and they're like, man, don't open it.

Aaron

00:31:22 – 00:31:28

It's gonna stink. Like, he's been dead. You know this. He's been dead. Do not open it.

Aaron

00:31:30 – 00:32:23

And they open the tomb and Jesus looks into the tomb and says, Lazarus, come out. And the dead man walks out of the tomb. And in that moment, when I read that, it was honestly the closest encounter to God I've ever felt because it was immediately clear to me, as if spoken, it was immediately clear to me, you are not Mary. You are Lazarus, and you were absolutely dead in your sins and transgressions until Jesus set up and said, come out. You are no longer dead, Aaron.

Aaron

00:32:23 – 00:32:50

Come out of the tomb. You are alive. And in that moment, I knew, like, I thought I had known all along that, like, yes, God is real, and I have a relationship with him. In that moment, I knew, like, God is real, and I have been called out of death. Here I am thinking, I'm Mary and I'm screaming at God, and God says, yes, but you were dead.

Aaron

00:32:52 – 00:33:32

And I saved you, and I called you out of that death. And I just like that I mean, as far as as far as life changing moments go, that has gotta be that has gotta be top 1 or 2. When I realized that the story of Lazarus is actually a story of Aaron and the story of Lazarus is actually a story of God's grace telling me to be not dead and to be alive. It's like, I don't know how you I don't know, how you reason or logic your way into or out of that, but when it happens, it's irresistible.

Glauber

00:33:34 – 00:33:37

And it stays with you forever, I would presume. Right?

Aaron

00:33:37 – 00:33:39

Yes. Forever.

Glauber

00:33:41 – 00:34:15

Man, I don't even know how to respond to that. Thank you thank you for sharing this, Aaron. And it's, I was having this conversation the other day with someone at church, and and and I said that, I was reading the book of Job. So and it's fine and it's interesting, it's interesting how before I realized and Ken C. Dodds just said on Twitter that he's watching us, so Ken, great great to have you around.

Glauber

00:34:15 – 00:34:57

Ken volunteer actually to interview me on my own podcast so I can tell my story, which is coming at the end of the month. But, again, be be it as, like, before I had this realization that this is real, and I see a lot my I see it's great that you said that, like, that we we read the bible, and we see ourselves in those characters. And we see the ourselves in different characters at different times and before. I before I had this realization that this is actually factually real, which I do not believe, I had a prerealization that that was psychologically real. And this is something that I tried to explore the other day because it it could be both things.

Glauber

00:34:57 – 00:35:20

I mean, it could be that it's factually false, but it's psychologically real. You can read a story, like, you can read a fable, you can read the Lord of the Rings, and that can communicate something to you, which, again, I don't think this is factually false, but I used to. And I used to see myself a lot in in Thomas, right, in in that sense, which is which is, like, show me. Right? Show me.

Glauber

00:35:20 – 00:36:02

If if this is true, show me. And understood that, you know, the but, again, reading the book of Job, I I had a similar well, again, not similar because the story is completely different, but, like, a similar moment in which I'm reading that story about how God, you know, showered Job with blessings and then takes them away essentially because you all know the story of Job. And the thing the things that happen are, like, his family dies, his kids die, and then he's granted a new family. But all I could think about all I could think about was man, he sucks to be Job's kid. Right?

Glauber

00:36:02 – 00:36:25

Yeah. Because it's it's a story it's a story of of redemption. It is a story of God's grace for that main character. But look at being being someone else, being his kid, which is just a side character, there's is is just a side character in in in the story. I I was having this conflict in in exactly like like you mentioned in the beginning.

Glauber

00:36:25 – 00:36:43

Like, who who the hell am I? Like, I will die I will die, and nobody will remember me. Give it 300 give it 300 years, nobody knows who I am. And and right? So but you have those stories, but am I just an MPC?

Glauber

00:36:43 – 00:36:44

Right? You might have heard the

Aaron

00:36:44 – 00:36:44

the the

Glauber

00:36:49 – 00:37:02

realization that we had that that I had at the time is that I am an MPC. I'm just I'm not the main character, and I have to just, but but but guess what? Job is not the main character either. We're all here. It's so this is liberating.

Glauber

00:37:02 – 00:37:32

It was liberating to me, that you can either be fighting to be the main character in those stories and make it everything about you, or you can finally realize that we are all helper characters in the story of Jesus Christ. Right? He is the only main character. And and, you know, you're just there to make the story work. And like Lazarus was, like Mary was, like Martha was, they were not the main characters.

Glauber

00:37:32 – 00:37:48

It looks like Lazarus was the main character in that story. Who wasn't? Right? And and in fact in in at least for me this was liberating in the sense that, yeah, it doesn't actually matter between the difference between Job and and these kids are you know, looks looks big, but it's not. Yeah.

Glauber

00:37:48 – 00:37:50

There is a there is a universe between us.

Aaron

00:37:51 – 00:38:17

Yep. We we exist we exist to bring glory to God and that is that is the reason that we exist. And we exist to enjoy him forever. We do not exist to make much of ourselves. And I think I think one particularly American thing that happens is people, particularly like conservative Christian Americans, they'll read the Bible and be like, yeah, I'm David.

Aaron

00:38:18 – 00:38:45

I'm gonna slay Goliath. I'm gonna slay my tens of 1,000 upon 1,000. I'm going to be the hero warrior and everyone, like, everyone is going to bow to me. And you're like, man, I think you're reading the wrong, like, you're getting the wrong thing out of that. Like, this is not when you when you read these stories in the Bible and you want to identify with the characters, like, you're not the main character.

Aaron

00:38:45 – 00:38:56

David is David is a type of Jesus. David is the the worst and imperfect Jesus. Jesus is the better and perfect David. Jesus is the better and perfect Moses. Jesus is the better and perfect Noah.

Aaron

00:38:56 – 00:39:14

Like, he's the better and perfect Adam. You're not you're not Dave you're not King David. And I think, like, if you read the Bible and you look at the characters like Lazarus and like Thomas and like Zacchaeus, the wee little man who had to climb up in the tree to see Jesus, was attacked.

Glauber

00:39:14 – 00:39:19

Did you identify yeah. I was gonna ask if you did you see any when you read the story of Zacchaeus,

Aaron

00:39:20 – 00:39:22

and He's a tax collector. Yeah.

Glauber

00:39:22 – 00:39:22

It's a little a little

Aaron

00:39:23 – 00:39:30

it's a little different to the Yeah. To the Jews because he was, you know, working with the oppressive force. But, yeah, he's he's an accountant. He's one of my people. And so Yeah.

Aaron

00:39:30 – 00:39:54

These are these are the people that you should more closely identify with. Just like the poor and the needy and the helpless, because that's what we truly are. I think we trick ourselves into believing that we have control over things when in all reality you are dead in your sins and trespasses until Christ calls you out of that death. And so like, yes, reading the Bible and thinking, yeah, I'm king David. I'm awesome.

Aaron

00:39:54 – 00:40:37

It's like, ah, you're kinda that's not exactly what that story is about. But, yeah, I I definitely recognize that. And I mean, like, the just the story, I wanna share just briefly why we named our, our triplet Hannah, Because of characters in the Bible that, can be identified with and you can see yourself in, There is there is, like, there's a character in in first Samuel named Hannah, who has so much trouble conceiving. When she just wants

Glauber

00:40:37 – 00:40:37

she just

Aaron

00:40:37 – 00:41:14

wants a child and she cannot have a child, and she's just praying and praying and praying to have a child. And there's this passage that says, God remembered Hannah. God remembered Hannah, and she conceived. And that is just like we we name we named our our our our triplet, our daughter. We named her Hannah because god remembers Hannah.

Aaron

00:41:15 – 00:41:57

Like, I believe that god is more gracious than I can understand. I believe that god is more just than I can understand. I believe that God remembers Hannah, and I hope and pray that I get to meet her someday in heaven. The theology on that is I don't I don't know exactly. But I believe that God is more gracious than I could ever imagine, and I believe that God is more faithful and just than I could ever begin to comprehend.

Aaron

00:41:58 – 00:42:30

And I believe that God remembers Hannah, and I I remember Hannah. And so we named we named her Hannah. She has no middle name. She's just named Hannah because god remember god remembered Hannah, and God remembers God remembers my Hannah. And so there are characters with which you you can identify, and usually usually they're they're the lowly ones.

Aaron

00:42:30 – 00:42:46

And I think, theological theological accuracy would say you should identify with the lowly characters, the weak in spirit, the ones who need the most help because if that's not us, I don't know which ones are.

Glauber

00:42:46 – 00:42:51

You are saying, like, how god, didn't forgot Hannah in this way, injured.

Aaron

00:42:52 – 00:43:21

Yes. Exactly. And I think my my my final point on that was I believe that God remembers our Hannah as well, and I don't fully know. I hope and pray that, she is rejoicing with God right now, but I don't know. I don't I don't fully understand, when the spirit is breathed into a child, but I I understand that God is kind and God is gracious.

Aaron

00:43:23 – 00:43:37

And I understand that he cares about me more than I care about myself, which I think is hard for me to internalize sometimes. And so we we remember Hannah, and god god remembers Hannah.

Glauber

00:43:39 – 00:43:59

Aaron, so thankfully you share your story, man. And what would you say like, one one of the things it's funny. I I I was I was discussing that with, the other day with Lane. Lane who actually left the the Mormon church. Mhmm.

Glauber

00:43:59 – 00:44:24

So his episode was quite nice because it's the exact like, he eventually left and does not believe any of that anymore. But one of the things that takes a lot of people away from religion, which incredibly enough was not a thing for me, was the problem of evil. And you felt close to that point. I mean, if you you got to that point in which you said, man, this is right? This is just why?

Glauber

00:44:24 – 00:44:47

Like Yep. People people can people can understand the idea of, like, men commit evil against other other ones and and and, like so, yes, yes, there is evil in us. Nobody disputes that. But things that just happen naturally, like, without like like like your story or or, like, somebody dying on on a car crash or a volcano eruption or whatnot. Like, why?

Glauber

00:44:47 – 00:45:10

I love this person, and and and it was taken away from me. And I don't know if you have ever heard about a dude by the name of Bart Ehrman. Mm-mm. And I guess people say God works in mysterious ways, and and Bart Ehrman is a historian. Lots of people, do know about him, and he specializes in in New Testament Bible scholarship.

Glauber

00:45:11 – 00:45:36

Cool. And he was instrumental in in getting me to believe the things that I believe today, but he himself actually, not through the not through the study of history, but he is no longer a Christian. He calls himself an atheist today. But he said the the the thing that did it for me was not even the thing. Historically, he said I see no problem with that, which again was instrumental for me to Mhmm.

Glauber

00:45:36 – 00:45:44

Understand those things. But I I just couldn't make peace with the problem of evil. So this that you described, I think, is the hardest part. Like, when

Aaron

00:45:44 – 00:45:45

Hardest part.

Glauber

00:45:45 – 00:45:56

When you when you believe something, but then you confront them with this thing. Like, this is evil. And and and you you manage to keep your faith through through that moment. Right?

Aaron

00:45:56 – 00:46:15

It it gets, you know, that's the hardest part for sure, and I think it gets worse the more the more you understand, the more you understand theologically, it gets harder because, if you believe, which I do, that God is all knowing and all powerful.

Glauber

00:46:16 – 00:46:16

Oh, yeah.

Aaron

00:46:16 – 00:46:46

And nothing nothing happens outside of his control. And the, the the universe is upheld by the breath of his mouth. And like, if you believe all of those things, which I do, it's not that there's a cosmic battle between good and evil. There is only God waiting to destroy and crush evil at the end, in the end times. And so it's like, there's it's not 2 equally equally matched teams.

Aaron

00:46:46 – 00:47:11

It's not like who's gonna win. It is there's only final and total destruction of evil by God himself without lifting a finger. And he's gonna ride a he's gonna ride around with king of kings and lord of lords tattooed on his leg with a sword vanquishing his enemies. Like, that's not really a fair fight. And so you look at, like, you look at the problem of evil and you're like, wait a second.

Aaron

00:47:11 – 00:47:17

It's not that it's not that, like, god can't stop it. It's that he could stop it. And if nothing happens

Glauber

00:47:17 – 00:47:18

And he didn't. Yes.

Aaron

00:47:18 – 00:47:36

And he didn't. And if nothing happens outside of his control, then what does that mean? And so you get in this you get in this really hard spot where you're like, if you had been here, my daughter wouldn't have died. And you get in the spot where it's like, there's no one else to blame.

Glauber

00:47:37 – 00:47:37

It's

Aaron

00:47:37 – 00:48:01

alright. There's nobody else to blame. That's that's just the reality. If God is in control, and I believe he is, there's just nobody else to blame, and so that's incredibly difficult. And the thing that gives me peace is that we have a promise.

Aaron

00:48:01 – 00:48:43

1. One, we have a promise that all things work together for the good of those who are called according to his his purposes. And so it's like, okay. I I do believe that me getting type 1 diabetes at age 20, that me having my wife having miscarriages and then us losing our our triplet, getting rheumatoid arthritis at 34, it's like all all things. And that can be empty if you don't believe it, and it can be so incredibly, incredibly pure and sweet if if you have reason to believe it.

Aaron

00:48:43 – 00:49:06

And the other thing I think that is theologically accurate is that everything exists to bring glory to God. And this is again, like, understanding your position. Like, the universe does not exist to bring Aaron Francis glory.

Glauber

00:49:06 – 00:49:07

Mhmm.

Aaron

00:49:07 – 00:49:28

Aaron Francis exists to bring God glory. And whatever, like, whatever that means, God will be glorified. And that is, once you understand positionally where you are, that is soothing because we,

Glauber

00:49:30 – 00:49:38

Because it doesn't matter once you understand that, it doesn't matter if you have Job or one of his kids. It doesn't make a difference. Right?

Aaron

00:49:38 – 00:50:11

Mhmm. Yep. You, at that point, you understand that the main character of the universe, is not you. It is God. But God made a way through Jesus Christ for us to know him and for us to be his child, not his servant, not his servant, not his friend, a fully flesh and blood child of the living God.

Aaron

00:50:11 – 00:50:27

And you're like, wow. That is I don't deserve that. Especially especially the Gentiles who were grafted in. Like, we weren't even we weren't even the original people. The original people were an ethnic group.

Aaron

00:50:28 – 00:50:38

They were the Israel the the Israelis. They were the the Jewish people. God called Abram and said, stop worshiping the moon. You are my child now. And Abram said, I'm Abraham.

Aaron

00:50:38 – 00:50:53

Let's do this. And, like, at some point, the Gentiles get grafted in. I'm not even of of the characters, I'm not main. I'm not even secondary. I'm this guy that got added in later, by the grace of God, grafted in, and now I'm a child.

Aaron

00:50:54 – 00:51:36

Now I have the rights to approach the king. I can I can go to the king and wake him up and say, I need you, and he's not gonna kill me? He's gonna welcome me in and say, my my child, my child, I love you. It's like, yeah, life is hard. Life sucks a lot of the times, but the king of the universe, the living God views me as someone who is able to approach his throne room without fear and make requests of him and beseech him and to beg him for things, and he'll say, my child, I love you.

Aaron

00:51:36 – 00:51:45

It's like once that once that settles, it makes a lot of the other stuff, bearable.

Glauber

00:51:48 – 00:52:07

Love to explore that, and for the benefit I mean, forgive us in advance that it goes in in in weird directions. But, like, I I guess for the benefits of people in the audience who I know are watching, who do not buy into the Christian story. Mhmm. Are you have you ever heard of a person by the name of Viktor Frankl?

Aaron

00:52:08 – 00:52:11

I have heard of Viktor Frankl, but I don't know why.

Glauber

00:52:11 – 00:52:29

Viktor Frankl, well, the why is because you're a smart guy, so you you with smart people, you hear good names. But let me tell you a little bit more about Victor Franco. And Victor Franco, was one of how you how you positioned the original ones. He was a Jew. I actually have no idea.

Glauber

00:52:29 – 00:52:50

One one thing people don't understand about Jews is this, lots of Jews don't actually believe in God. They are an ethnic group before it is a religious, identity. Right? So, like, I I have many friends intact in the database world. The same dominance that the Mormons has in front end developers, the Israelis have in in databases and things like that.

Glauber

00:52:51 – 00:53:08

Most of my Israeli friends, if not all, do not believe in God. Yeah, in fact, we connected back then through this. I mean, just, lots of them think they they wish religion didn't exist because they attribute, sometimes all the problems in Israel Mhmm. To religious in fighting. Right?

Glauber

00:53:08 – 00:53:42

Just, but be it as you may, I have no idea actually, if Victor Franco was a believer or not, but he went through this thing called the holocaust, which is, not not usually seen as the nicest part of history. Right? So, he survived the concentration camp. And one of the thing one of the insights that he had, later he became a a a psychologist and and and which is how most and he wrote a book. I just forgot the name of the book because my memory has been failing me a lot.

Glauber

00:53:42 – 00:54:04

Some people call it age. So if anybody on the chat remembers the name of the book, please comment. But, the book essentially the core of this book is telling that story of him in in the concentration camp. And the conclusion that he reaches is that the person who has a why can if withstand anyhow. Right?

Glauber

00:54:04 – 00:54:13

So once, like, he saw, like, people in that situation, which is can you imagine yourself in a worse situation? No. I I can't. I mean, I I actually tried. I tried.

Glauber

00:54:14 – 00:54:34

Call me whatever you want, but I tried, sadistic or masochistic or I tried to imagine myself in a situation worse than that. I I cannot imagine, and and I have no idea what I would do. And it's easy to say I would do this, I would do that. Right? And according to my favorite philosopher, Mike Tyson, everybody's got a plan until you punch in the face.

Glauber

00:54:34 – 00:55:02

So I have no idea what I would do in that situation. But what Victor noticed is that the people who had something to live for were the people who withstood that because they were able to integrate that into the reason that they were there. And then he created a whole, psychological school in terms of, like, therapy, how to approach therapy with that in mind, with that in in the thing that, hey, look. I mean, at the end of the day, it's all about meaning. At the end of the day, you can have the worst problem in in your hands.

Glauber

00:55:02 – 00:55:46

And if you have that meaning, you can withstand it. All of this to say all of this to say that the old me, right, would have heard stories like the ones we're sharing today. And, as much as we would empathize at a human level because it's terrible, like, you shared your story and, like, the holocaust is arguably worse, but be it as it made equally terrible at the very least. And then what what what we would say what we would have said is essentially, like, look, none of this is really true. However, you can use that to ground yourself and and live a better life because this gives you a sense of meaning.

Glauber

00:55:46 – 00:56:06

So this whole story about God and this whole story about, like, the characters of the bible, you know what? None of that really is true, but he helps you withstand just the as Sartre would put, as Camus would put, like, the fact that the world makes absolutely no sense, and it would just destroy you if if you let it. Right? How how do you view that?

Aaron

00:56:08 – 00:56:48

Oh, man. I think it's very, very difficult. I'm not gonna lie. Like, I look at you look at the the Israelites in slavery for 400 years in Egypt, And you have to imagine at year 200, 300, you're so many generations out that you're like, none none of this like, what are you talking about? If if God if God were here and he were real and we were his chosen people or whatever, we wouldn't be slaves in Egypt for 400 years.

Aaron

00:56:49 – 00:56:59

And then, of course, God shows up and they walk across water on dry land, and you're like, I don't get it, man. I just Why not before? Yeah. Why? What is the point?

Aaron

00:56:59 – 00:57:09

And that is the hard like, that's the hard thing for me. I want to know what the point is. I wanna know, like Mhmm. Yeah. But why?

Aaron

00:57:09 – 00:57:21

But why? Like, okay. Fine. Getting getting type 1 getting juvenile diabetes at 20, pretty weird. Like, I understand it's for your glory and my good, but, like, give me a little hint.

Aaron

00:57:21 – 00:57:30

Give me a just give me a little hint. Like, why? Why is this good? Because from where I'm standing, looks pretty bad. Looks pretty bad.

Aaron

00:57:30 – 00:58:12

And then you have stories of, like, like my experience reading the story of Lazarus, but you have stories of like, the friendship between God and Moses, where God comes down to the earth and Moses says, show me your face. And he says, I can't show you my face without utterly destroying you. I'm gonna hide you. I'm gonna pick you up with my hand and hide you in the cleft of the rock, and my glory will pass by you. And it's like, what an intimate and he goes up on the mountain and and he goes up on the mountain and he comes back down later, and Moses is just glowing from literally glowing from the encounter with the living God.

Aaron

00:58:12 – 00:58:29

And they're like, God is personal, and you can know him. And through Jesus Christ, we're all able to do that. The old testament, the spirit used to come and be taken away. But through Jesus Christ, we're all able to approach God and see him face to face. And it's like, what?

Aaron

00:58:29 – 00:58:48

I don't understand the difference. Like, 400 years of slavery and silence and speaking face to face as if he's a friend. And that is hard for me. Like, that's still hard for me. It's still hard for me to experience hardships and be like, why?

Aaron

00:58:49 – 00:59:18

Like, I'm doing my best here. Like, I I feel like I'm doing everything you've asked me to, and yet still everything's gonna be hard and terrible. But I think there is I truly believe that there is 1, a purpose, and 2, it is for it is for my benefit. And maybe that's not clear until the fullness of time. And, like, maybe you just don't ever get to know that until it's over, and that is something I've had to come to terms with.

Glauber

00:59:19 – 00:59:32

I think this is the hardest part because I I feel much like you. I just wanna know. I just wanna know. 11 of 1 of the things that I pray a lot for is exactly this. I mean, can I please just get to know some of that stuff?

Glauber

00:59:32 – 00:59:45

I just wanna know how it works. And and a lot of that, I think, is what unites us as technologists. Right? You wanna know how things work. JavaScript people does not they don't wanna know how things work because they already know it doesn't work.

Glauber

00:59:46 – 00:59:57

But by but by and large, like, you you wanna know how things work. You wanna know what's the purpose. You know, you wanna know what this component is doing there. Yep. And you want that story to make sense, in in your head.

Glauber

00:59:57 – 01:00:12

And, you know, it's hard to you know, I I approach this from a different angle, as I said, that we will discuss later. But sometimes it's hard to make sense with so many missing pieces. Right?

Aaron

01:00:13 – 01:00:15

Yes. Very, very hard.

Glauber

01:00:17 – 01:00:35

For some reason and this is something that I think it it it's easy. Like, the book of science is also missing pieces, And and there's there's a lot in the book of science that, we don't know. Mhmm. We're just a little bit more comfortable saying, that's fine. We don't know.

Glauber

01:00:35 – 01:00:54

At some point, we're gonna find out. Like, Newton was, at his time, did not know, of course, many things that we know today about nature, but it's just something that we learn to make peace with. I think the thing about God is that it can get so personal. Right? The experience can get so close that we're not that comfortable with the fact that we don't know.

Glauber

01:00:54 – 01:01:03

I'm not I'm not comfortable. I wish I I wish I could know. I mean, I sometimes I think, man, I would give everything to know. Just to know. Right?

Glauber

01:01:03 – 01:01:21

Why? Just just to know why things exist. The the first question, like, I what you were talking about, like, when you were 5 or 6. Okay? One of the first questions that I remember asking myself sitting on a porch, I I remember exactly where I was, and I remember, right, just the was why things exist?

Aaron

01:01:22 – 01:01:23

Tough question.

Glauber

01:01:24 – 01:01:28

Tough question. Right? But why things exist? I do not know.

Aaron

01:01:29 – 01:02:14

Things, I mean, things exist to bring glory to God. That is that is why, like, that is the in my in my, opinion, my understanding, the, God of the universe in an explosion and overflow of his own creativity created the universe and upholds all things and created us in his image to bring himself glory, which I will admit sounds insane. Like, if any one of us were to do something like that, if any one of us were to say, I'm gonna have a bunch of kids so that they bring me glory, you'd be like, hey, man. That's that's kind of messed up.

Glauber

01:02:15 – 01:02:17

But Elon Musk is kind of doing that, though. Right?

Aaron

01:02:17 – 01:02:21

Yeah. He's he is doing that, and it's kind of messed up. But, like

Glauber

01:02:21 – 01:02:21

Exactly.

Aaron

01:02:22 – 01:02:46

We're not God. Like, the the best and highest use of the universe is to bring glory to God. And that is my, like, that is my responsibility. And that is the Bible says that if if if we do not praise God, the very stones will cry out. Like the universe is a testament to his handiwork.

Aaron

01:02:46 – 01:03:03

And so, like, why why this expression? I don't fully understand. Like, why why this way? Why is it best that, man should fall and need saving? Why not just, like, create us so we can enjoy perfect union forever?

Aaron

01:03:03 – 01:03:19

I don't know, but it must bring God more glory to do it this way. It must be more glorious for God to have his son violently murdered in this way to redeem us back. It's like, that's not the way I would have done it. I'm not gonna lie. But that's okay.

Aaron

01:03:19 – 01:03:36

I'm I'm not God. And there's a great comfort to finally realizing I'm not God. I'm just not. And I think that, like, permeates, that just has to permeate everything you believe is like, you know what? I don't know.

Aaron

01:03:36 – 01:03:52

I'm not God. And that's very difficult, especially for a bunch of hyper logical people to be like, yeah. Well, I don't understand why it is that way. I understand that it must bring glory to God to do it this way, but that's about all I can that's about all I can say. It's kinda tough.

Glauber

01:03:53 – 01:04:15

How how literally in in your tradition and look, if you don't wanna talk about, your tradition in general, feel free to give the answer as Aaron Francis as as a person. But but how how literally do you guys read the bible? Like, when you read, like, a yeah. What what was, was was Jonah inside the whale for 3 days? Literally.

Glauber

01:04:15 – 01:04:18

Actually. How do you view that?

Aaron

01:04:19 – 01:04:53

It depend I mean, it depends on parts of the tradition. I mean, I think I think there are, there are things that are read open handedly. And when I say open handedly, I mean like, it doesn't super matter if you take it as oral tradition to communicate certain stories, or if you take it as literal fact, there are some of those things. And there are some parts of the Bible that are written as poetry, and those are to be taken less literally than the parts that are written as narrative or like observation. And so some of those things are like Jonah in the whale.

Aaron

01:04:54 – 01:05:09

I don't know, honestly. Do I believe he was swallowed by a whale or a big fish and spit up at Nineveh because he jumped off the boat or they threw him off the boat because of the storms? Like, I don't know. Honestly, I I don't really know. I can't it'd be kind of cool if that were the case.

Aaron

01:05:09 – 01:05:37

So like, I don't know. Yeah. But the things that, the things that can be read with, kind of an open hand are not issues of salvation in my opinion. So like the creation story, is that a creation myth about, God setting in process, you know, 1,000,000 and billions of years of evolution and guiding the whole thing along the way? Or is it a creation story that God created the earth in 6 days?

Aaron

01:05:38 – 01:05:52

Like, I don't know. And I think reasonable people, reasonable Christians differ on that. And I'm just not super concerned with arguing about, like, which ones of these are like, is it a global flood or is it a local flood? I don't know. Like, I

Glauber

01:05:52 – 01:06:08

don't know. The flood the flood is interesting, and and I will give you my commentary on the flood. But the the before that, I think one of the things that get a lot of people hang up on is when people who are atheists, who are science minded

Aaron

01:06:09 – 01:06:10

Mhmm.

Glauber

01:06:10 – 01:06:28

Sometimes look at at religious people, and here I'm trying to be brother than just Christians, what they will see again and and and this is my old self speaking through my new self in, in the sense, like, look. You guys believe all of those stories that are clearly, clearly, clearly false.

Aaron

01:06:29 – 01:06:29

Mhmm.

Glauber

01:06:29 – 01:06:43

To to the point you can get snarky about the talking snake and etcetera. You believe there was a talking snake. And, like, you believe those literal those literal things. And then, on top of that, you build your whole moral foundation

Aaron

01:06:43 – 01:06:44

Sure.

Glauber

01:06:44 – 01:07:18

Because of something you read in this book clearly full, you know, of of things that are not true. So in in I think in in some sense, it is important, right, to to address I mean, it's not important to you personally. Mhmm. But when when you address the the the culture at large, if if you had to pick a side, right, and and or learn Git versus don't learn Git or whatever fight of the day we have today, like, this does it matter that those stories are are factually true or not? And if if if not, like, we'll explore.

Aaron

01:07:19 – 01:07:50

Yeah. So I don't think I think it is interesting. I think it is interesting to discuss, particularly Old Testament, which of those things are literal, which are, indicative of a broader story and they're using it as a way to communicate the oral tradition passed down through generations. I think that is an interesting, that is an interesting discussion. So let's narrow in on like the question of the talking snake in Genesis.

Aaron

01:07:50 – 01:08:16

Did that actually happen? You know what? That's not the craziest thing that we believe. The craziest thing, the craziest thing that we believe, that that I believe to be literally true. And so, like, if you wanna talk about the talking snake or a global flood or the walking, the parting of the sea and the walking on dry land, all of those things are interesting.

Aaron

01:08:16 – 01:08:49

All of those things are crazy, totally insane. The totally insane thing that we believe that actually, like, I literally believe and is extremely important is that the God of the universe had a son and sent him as as a human to live a perfect life and die for our sins. And by doing that, he ransomed me out of hell. That is by far the craziest thing that anyone could believe. And I fully literally believe that.

Aaron

01:08:49 – 01:09:27

And so, like, all of the other stuff is interesting and valuable, and worth discussing. But if you don't, like, if you're just kind of bandying about the edges and picking off stories that are like, this is kind of weird, like, okay. You want a weird one? Go to the middle. Go to the part where God sends his son, who is also God, by the way, to the earth to become a human born of a woman born of a virgin woman, crazy, then lives a perfect life, insane, and then dies, but in the process, adopts all of my sins and I get his goodness.

Aaron

01:09:27 – 01:09:52

It's like, hey, come on, talking snake or not. That's the crazy one, and that's the one that you have to reason with. And if you can't, like, if you don't believe that, then you're you're free to like, the other stuff doesn't super matter. But if you believe that, then the other stuff is like, oh, well, I can hold that with a more open hand because this central tenant of our faith is literally true to me.

Glauber

01:09:54 – 01:10:16

It's funny you put it this way because for me in my journey, just for clarity, to put my cards on the table. Right? Because I'm asking this of you. But, like, I I do I I believe that what what I believe is that the stories of the bible have genres, and you have to be aware of the genre of the story before you engage with the story. Yes.

Glauber

01:10:16 – 01:10:29

So, I I, I do not believe that the story of Jonah is factually true, and I don't believe it is presented if you're aware of the genre of the story Mhmm. I don't believe it is it is meant

Aaron

01:10:29 – 01:10:31

to be read as Yeah. To make it. Yeah.

Glauber

01:10:31 – 01:10:42

Yeah. Yeah. And and the same thing, by the way, with the story of Job. I think that, I personally think this is a story much like, a fable of ease of fable in which, like, it's trying to communicate something to you. Mhmm.

Glauber

01:10:42 – 01:11:27

I don't believe those things necessarily. It might have been a story that is inspired by something that you saw, and and, you know, you can have a root of truth, but I I don't actually think this is the the role of that story is to tell you something that's factually true. But some of those, you know, those stories, in my process of coming to terms, like some of the miraculous events, I think I I I had a a very similar realization to you in which, hey, look. This thing about Jesus that I just came to believe is true from other sources that Kent and I are gonna discuss, in in the end of July. In light of that, the other stories, some of them don't look that crazy anymore.

Aaron

01:11:27 – 01:11:28

They don't.

Glauber

01:11:28 – 01:11:29

Right?

Aaron

01:11:29 – 01:11:30

They don't.

Glauber

01:11:30 – 01:11:54

Right? So so if if I'm starting if I'm starting from like you're right. So if you're showing me the story, and the flood is one of them, if you're showing me the story of the flood, it looks pretty crazy. It looks it looks pretty insane. Or or the I think the talking snake is even a better one in the sense because the genre of that story is clearly not history in the sense that nobody was there to write it down.

Glauber

01:11:54 – 01:12:07

So, again, you can claim it it is it happened. If even if it is history, it's a different kind of history than a 1st century biography or 1st century eyewitness account. Right?

Aaron

01:12:07 – 01:12:08

Totally.

Glauber

01:12:09 – 01:12:31

So was there a talking snake there? Again, I don't know. But in the I I fully agree with you in in that sense that in once I came to believe that a person who died after spending years claiming that, oh, and by the way, I'm not just a nice guy, I'm God. Yes.

Aaron

01:12:32 – 01:12:32

Which is crazy.

Glauber

01:12:32 – 01:12:53

Yeah. It's one of the arguments that CS Lewis had. Like, a one of there are 3 options here. One of them is this guy's a lunatic, so let us explore whether or not it was true. And one of the ways in which it shows this this he wasn't a lunatic is that, I've I've I've heard people claiming any an an argument that we use that's used a lot as atheist.

Glauber

01:12:53 – 01:13:04

Yeah. Go to New York right now. You you walk 5 miles, and you find a a 100 people claiming they're god as well. Yep. Some of them died for all sorts of reasons.

Glauber

01:13:04 – 01:13:20

None of them came back. Right? So so the the once you accept that as historically true, which I did again, I don't know if the other stories are true or not. I think they have to be looked at independently, but they definitely sound less ridiculous.

Aaron

01:13:20 – 01:13:33

Right? They certainly they certainly do, and I think I think, you're I I actually agree with you on the genres. You need to understand is this, is this narrative? Is this poetry? Is this something else?

Aaron

01:13:33 – 01:13:57

Is this wisdom? But I think reading reading the particularly the old testament for historical trivia, I feel like is, is common, but is a miss, is a waste. I think of course first you have to decide is the craziest thing about this religion true? Because if it's not, it doesn't matter. Like what?

Aaron

01:13:57 – 01:14:26

I can read all these other stories and they're just stories because I don't believe that this is the inspired word of God. I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. And so then you read the old Testament and it's like, well, what am I supposed to do with the fact that this guy was or wasn't eaten by a whale or a fish, and then thrown up to preach to the Ninevites who used to like impale people on sticks? Like, what am I supposed to do with that if I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God? I think you read it and say, what does this story say about God?

Aaron

01:14:26 – 01:14:39

And what does this story say about me? Like, that's how you that's what when you read the old testament, you're looking at it and you're like, great. David slew Goliath. What does this say about God? What does this say about me?

Aaron

01:14:39 – 01:14:56

What is the story? Whether or not it is literally historically accurate, point for point, what does this say about God? And what does this say about me? And what should I do in response to it? So if it says this about God and it says this about me, what does it matter?

Aaron

01:14:56 – 01:15:42

What, how do I change my life in response to it? And then, of course, I do think it is valuable to apply intellectual rigor to the old testament and figure out, okay, given the genre, given corroborating historical evidence, given what the story says, what do I believe to be historically true? And what do I believe to be thematically correct? And that's where you have to, like, you have to ask the holy spirit to illuminate the text for you, and you have to you have to cite other biblical scholars and historical record. And, like, that work is valuable, but I think it's an easy it's an easy sticky wicket for people, outside of the faith to be like, oh, these stories are so wild.

Aaron

01:15:42 – 01:15:56

And I'm like, yeah, they are. But listen, don't waste your time on the wild ones on the outskirts. You need to address the wild one at the very center. That's the most insane story we have. And honestly, that's the one that matters.

Aaron

01:15:56 – 01:16:05

So like focus there and see if see if that one can become true to you. Because otherwise, the the rest of it's just kinda like, I don't know. It doesn't matter.

Glauber

01:16:05 – 01:16:25

Yeah. When I when I came back from Russia, because I lived in Russia for 5 years, by the way. And, man, I regret so much. I I regret so much because, again, I was a complete atheist at the time. And what an opportunity I lost, and completely missed to go visit, you know, the cathedrals, the Orthodox cathedrals, and understand more about orthodoxy, which Mhmm.

Glauber

01:16:25 – 01:16:53

Which I just wasn't interested, and and, you know, I I feel terrible about it. But just to I I was I I remember this event in my life, which was one of the things that put me in this path. I was talking to a friend of mine who was Catholic, and he had another friend, who was orthodox, and they were always trying to, you know, convert me in in one way or another. And at the time, I was reading a lot of call proper and philosophy. I always liked philosophy.

Glauber

01:16:53 – 01:17:01

Always. Always. Always. Always. I'm trying to get my boy in in in the same my girls are still too too little for that, but I'm trying to get my boy interested in that as well.

Glauber

01:17:01 – 01:17:16

Mhmm. And since since an early age. So I was reading popper, and, you know, you read something and then you fight you start trying to apply that all the time. And then everything you would tell me was like, oh, falsifiable. Like, this is not falsifiable.

Glauber

01:17:16 – 01:17:27

This is not falsifiable. And having this conversation with the with those 2 gentlemen, and and I I I came with, like, a yeah. You guys are religious. None of that. You're telling me the story.

Glauber

01:17:27 – 01:17:44

This is all about belief. I mean, it's one thing that, you know, you read in popper. It's like, this is not even this is not even wrong. This is worse than wrong. It's, it it it it cannot even be put in the category of right and wrong because I have no way to figure out if any of this is true or not.

Glauber

01:17:44 – 01:17:58

So why why would I waste my time? Right? So I'm so enlightened. That that's what I'm enlightened. And to my surprise and and and and here's here's what why I think that, like, we need different people with different perspectives because we are all different.

Glauber

01:17:58 – 01:18:17

Right? To my surprise, the orthodox man came to me and said, I agree with you. Those religion is in general non falsifiable, But there is one exception, Christianity. And then I said, no way. I mean, this is all like a bunch of stuff from a book like any other thing.

Glauber

01:18:17 – 01:18:45

And then it's okay. But in the letter of Romans, Saint Paul and and I see that somebody on the chat, made mention to that as well, Josh, that looks Saint Paul in the letter of Romans says that our faith again, I I I am terrible with quoting stuff verbatim, but you all will remember what I'm talking about. Saint Paul will say that we are here because we believe this happened. Right? Because Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

Glauber

01:18:45 – 01:18:56

If this everything hinges on it, and if it didn't happen, we're all fools. Yes. So he told me that, he told me that to which I replied, great. We finally agree on something. I think you're all fools.

Glauber

01:18:58 – 01:19:33

But but but I appreciate it. I think this idea of, like, yeah, like, look, this person is making a claim that, like, this religion here, this is falsifiable because, like, this event happened, which is why, again, I have conversations I I have conversations with people who ask me, yeah. But, like, nothing could happen that would change your mind and and and, you know, you just believe this because you believe it. I said, no. I mean, if you can show it to me, the convince with with the same level of of of of, you know, in a convincing way, that this event did not happen, I would abandon this tomorrow.

Glauber

01:19:34 – 01:20:02

Right? So like I I came to believe by looking at history that we have way more than enough evidence to believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. That is hard to believe, but it did happen. And it's funny because if you if this statement was something about, oh, this is the circularity that you have to get yourself out at this. If the statement was Jesus' drunk water, this is not hard to believe, but also doesn't prove anything.

Glauber

01:20:02 – 01:20:32

Anything that he would do anything that he would do to prove to you that he was god, by definition would be hard to believe because otherwise we all would do it. Then I came to believe that and which is why, you know, I I I will put myself in this path. But in retrospect, as I said, like, all the other stories become more believable. I don't know if they're individually true or not, but they are at least believable. Like, it compared to this, I think we are full you know, we are in full agreement, if it's safe to say, with with that part.

Aaron

01:20:33 – 01:20:45

Yes. I think so. And I I I think that is a, you bring up I think it's Paul in in Romans. It's like, if if this is not true, we are to be pitied above all. Like Mhmm.

Aaron

01:20:45 – 01:21:00

This is not you'll often hear, like, you hear people say something like, well, you know, being a Christian is just a good way. It's just a good moral way to live. And if it's not true, like, well, I still think it's it's the best way to live. Paul Paul says, listen. No.

Glauber

01:21:00 – 01:21:01

No. No.

Aaron

01:21:01 – 01:21:51

If it if it's not true, we are to be pitied above all people. We are to be pitied above all people because actually being a Christian is not just like a good way to be moral. It costs it costs you your life. And if this is not true, above all, we should be pitied. And so, yeah, that is like, I think there's, I think we're, we're honing in on like, you need to, whether by, whether by intellectual rigor, or by experiencing God himself, you need to come to a decision on the central, insane tenant of Christianity, that Jesus Christ is in fact God and did in fact die for your sins.

Aaron

01:21:51 – 01:22:21

That's the insane thing that you have to come to believe. I think I think that you can, intellectually reason your way. I think you can reason your way into it. And I think that the only way that you will come to that, understanding is if God removes the scales from your eyes and that you see. And so there's this there's this combination of, like, the the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any 2 edged sword.

Aaron

01:22:21 – 01:23:08

And you can read the Bible and become and you can experience God, the universe, like, testifies to God's glory. No man has an excuse to not understand. And so you can do that intellectually by yourself, but there is some point where you you have the experience and you understand and you meet God, that it's like at that point, there's there's no dissuading. There's no going back. There's no once you become enlightened to this relationship with God, then at that point, everything else starts to fall in place.

Aaron

01:23:08 – 01:23:28

This is not a, this is not a purely, like, how to live your life and what to believe in your head religion. This is a relationship with a living and active God, and that's where I feel like there's a there's a difference kind of in sciences and tech. It's like, I need to prove it. And you're like, great. Please try.

Aaron

01:23:28 – 01:23:49

I would love I believe that it withstands that scrutiny. I truly believe it withstands scrutiny. But once you try and try and try, at some point, you're going to have an encounter, should God allow it. You're going to have an encounter with God, and that is the thing that will save you. And so, I would encourage everyone to try, like give it a go.

Aaron

01:23:49 – 01:23:56

If you want to read the Bible, read the Bible. Like it's, I think it's powerful, and I think it's God's word, but I would encourage you to at least explore it.

Glauber

01:23:56 – 01:24:29

Mhmm. I I am not a Calvinist. Right, so, like, we would disagree, I think, in a lot of, things, about that, those center tenants. However however, I sometimes I feel that a lot of those theological discussions, they are arguing at the border of the issue and at the margin of the issue because Yep. Go back go back, for example, to the 500 year old discussion between protestants and Catholics about works.

Glauber

01:24:30 – 01:24:47

Right? At the end of the day, from a vantage point, they kinda look the same because I think every Protestant would agree that if you are safe, you will do those works. Yep. It's just that you don't need them. But when you look when you look from the outside, I mean, you're doing them.

Glauber

01:24:47 – 01:25:04

So, like, did did you need to do them? Yep. And then maybe you stopped doing it. So you weren't saved in the 1st place. I mean, there is a can can you see, like and and, again, maybe we're gonna be burned and be completely heretic, the the both of us here, but it kinda looks the same to me from some vantage points.

Glauber

01:25:04 – 01:25:20

I think there is some vantage point in which none of this matters. There is some vantage point from which this does matter. And I keep coming back to that story about, like, Jesus, if if all of us were equal and the same and had the same personality and the same needs, he would have maybe a single disciple. Right? Why 12?

Glauber

01:25:21 – 01:25:47

And and and for the Thomases among us, you know, just there there you can come through this through complete rationality. However, there is an element of grace that nobody will dispute. I don't dispute, like as a catholic I don't dispute. I would say that you can reject that grace if if you decide to, but I don't dispute that it was there to begin with. Because, look, I'm looking at my story.

Glauber

01:25:47 – 01:26:19

It's a story about how I looked into those things and about how I did the intellectual work to try to to convince myself that those things did happen. But I had exposure to all of those things, and it didn't convince me before. And and things happen in my life that without those things, I would not have seen it in that particular way. So so there is some element here, which is why I don't and and and, you know, I I usually, I don't go around just trying to convert people because, like, look. But it's not up to me.

Glauber

01:26:20 – 01:26:34

In in due time, you know, if if whenever god decides whether or not it is is it is irresistible, we can debate. But the grace is there to you know, for sure. And it's something that happens to you. Right?

Aaron

01:26:34 – 01:26:58

Yep. Yep. And I think, I think you make you make an interesting and good point about, well, we'll just take the faith versus works thing from, like, you know, from one perspective, it's like, the works prove the faith. It's like you're doing these works because you have the faith and the works are not required, but because you have the faith, you do the works. And if you didn't do the works, you wouldn't have the faith.

Aaron

01:26:58 – 01:27:27

But it's the faith that it's like, oh my goodness. Boy, from the outside, this all looks the same, but it's like, what do you actually believe? And I think there is, again, I think there is value in being rigorous about it and studying theology, but I will, I will again point to, let's take the, the thief on the cross. So when for the audience, when, when Christ was crucified, there were 2 other guys there being crucified also. So there are these, there are these 3 guys on crosses and 2 thieves and Christ.

Aaron

01:27:27 – 01:27:48

And one of the thieves says like, aren't you the Messiah? Like save yourself and save us. Like, what are you if you're so great, like what are you doing up here? And then the other one, the other thief on the cross says to Jesus, remember me when you are in your kingdom.

Glauber

01:27:49 – 01:27:49

Yeah.

Aaron

01:27:49 – 01:28:18

And like, listen, of of all time historical deathbed confessions, I don't think anybody is better than the thief on the cross. Like the thief on the cross understands fully, their station in life. He fully understands I am a sinner being put to death for my sins. And he looks at Christ and says, remember me. Remember me.

Aaron

01:28:18 – 01:28:50

Like, that is the, that is the simplicity of what we believe. We look to we look to God and say, God help me. God help me. And, like, the theology is good, and the theology is powerful, and it is right and pure and noble to to study the theology. But when you are dying on the cross and you look upon the face of Christ and say, remember me, and he says, truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.

Aaron

01:28:51 – 01:29:08

Like, did he believe did he even know any of the stories? I don't know. But he believed he believed that Jesus Christ was the son of God capable of saving him from his sins. And he looked upon his face and said, remember me. And Christ said, today, you will be with me in paradise.

Aaron

01:29:09 – 01:29:22

And so we can make it as complicated. And I think it's valuable because I think there's, there's rich understanding of God's character in studying theology, or you can make it as simple and say, God help me. And that is pure and undefiled Christianity.

Glauber

01:29:25 – 01:29:37

Man, that's that is great. I'm taking a look here at the questions that we're getting. Lots lots of, interest there. You certainly pulled the crowd. So we have people here saying incredible things.

Glauber

01:29:37 – 01:30:03

Like, if Adam Joey is saying, if Adam and Eve never sinned in the garden, there's a huge part of God's character, his grace, and redemptive heart for a broken people would never be known. Mhmm. So, I mean, this is a very interesting, way way of looking at the issue. Right? So, like, I I certainly don't know why things are the way they are, but we can it's possible to see this line of reasoning.

Glauber

01:30:03 – 01:30:34

Right? The the theology thing you're talking about, it is possible, I believe. I don't think it is possible to understand, to to just to discern the question does God exist or not Through a I'm not gonna say reason, but through a philosophical process alone, by looking like some people try to do, like an and like like I would try to do. I think it is possible to come to God through reason like I did

Aaron

01:30:35 – 01:30:35

Mhmm.

Glauber

01:30:35 – 01:30:57

By understanding that if if you look at the historical record and if you look at the trail that that leaves Mhmm. This one person came back from the dead, and it is possible to come through a process like you're describing yourself to be at. But what once you accept it once you accept it, now you have the tools that you need to reason. Mhmm. Right?

Glauber

01:30:57 – 01:31:11

So, like, I I don't think reason is the start of it, but you can reason and and you can do things like Joey just did in which, like, knowing what I know Mhmm. I can now use those things that I know to fill the gaps and reason about the process. Mhmm.

Aaron

01:31:12 – 01:31:39

Yep. I think fundamentally I think fundamentally, God is accessible to us by way of Jesus Christ. And if you approach that through screaming and gnashing and wailing of teeth saying, this is insane. I'm never gonna believe this, but God captures you. Great.

Aaron

01:31:40 – 01:32:06

If you approach it through intellectual curiosity and rigor, great. If you approach it through purely experiential, like, I am going to pray and ask God to make himself known to me, great. There are, the the full this full statement is important, so don't don't clip half of it. There are many ways to reach God. They just happen to all go through Jesus Christ, in my opinion.

Glauber

01:32:06 – 01:32:06

Yeah.

Aaron

01:32:06 – 01:32:38

Whether whether that is rigor or experience or death or life, whatever it is, you can you can approach God through Jesus Christ. And I don't think, like, I think you and I are have approached that very differently. And I think that's good for people to understand. Like that is good for people to understand God slash God slash the Bible can withstand your scrutiny, and you should apply all of your scrutiny to it. It you should not hold back.

Aaron

01:32:38 – 01:32:51

You should not, tread softly. You can approach the living God in any way you want through Jesus Christ, and God willing, you will find him.

Glauber

01:32:52 – 01:33:31

Jesus' response to Thomas is usually used by, again, my former crew, to to show how religious can be anti science and anti knowledge. Right? Because, you you you believe because you saw, but blessed are those who didn't see and yet believe. But, again, I identify a lot with Thomas as as I mentioned a couple of times. And one of the things that I understood in in that, in that journey is that, look, Jesus said that and whatever we can argue about whatever exactly he meant by that because there is always a they think about what what does it mean, but let's look at the actions.

Glauber

01:33:31 – 01:33:50

Right? And let's look at at the recorded actions that in no place I mean, he he did show himself to Thomas. So despite saying, like, blessed are those who do not need to see, yet he showed. And and so, Thomas, I understand you need to see this, and here I am. Right?

Glauber

01:33:50 – 01:34:29

Here here is the proof. And at no time, he rebukes Thomas, and at no time, he would say, like, this is not you know, I don't like you or you're not one of us anymore or anything of that sort. Like, is if this is what you needed, here I am to to show myself to you. So for for I think one of the things that I wanna try to do by making those counterpoints and by bringing a huge host of of guests with a completely different experience, including my own experiences, for those of you intact that are like my former self that see yourself like Thomas, like, I, you know, there is a path for you.

Aaron

01:34:29 – 01:34:32

Has to put my hand in the wounded side of Christ.

Glauber

01:34:32 – 01:34:35

I had to. I had to. I had to. I was not Paul. I was not Peter.

Glauber

01:34:35 – 01:34:54

I was Thomas in that story. And and, you know, some peep that's, you know, some people are. That that's just the the way it is. But, I would change the order because of that. Now now maybe let's get polemic because dev, who is going to hell, but he's not going to hell be because, lack of faith or anything like that.

Glauber

01:34:54 – 01:35:06

He's going to help for his JavaScript work. Oh, good sense. Yeah. He he he is saying, Hindus cry in corner with their and then he didn't complete the phrase. So, what are they crying?

Glauber

01:35:06 – 01:35:22

With their I guess, Dev, if you're still around and you wanna clarify that, but I guess what he means is that by claiming that all paths go through Jesus Christ are excluding people from other faith, I think that's what I I would understand that. So how what do we say for to that?

Aaron

01:35:23 – 01:35:27

With there was a type of just Hindus crying in the corner.

Glauber

01:35:27 – 01:35:29

Just yeah.

Aaron

01:35:29 – 01:35:33

Yeah. This is this is I mean, this is the hard part.

Glauber

01:35:34 – 01:35:34

Mhmm.

Aaron

01:35:34 – 01:36:03

The the Bible that I believe, says that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Not a way, not a truth, and not a life. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man comes to god except through him, and that's what I believe. And so that is, that is exclusive. It just simply is exclusive, and that is, not palatable.

Aaron

01:36:04 – 01:36:26

I mean, you wanna talk about insane insane things we believe. We believe that Jesus Christ is the only son of God and has redeemed us from our sins. We also believe that no man comes to God except through him. And, like, it's just full of insane things that are not palatable, especially in this day and age that I just I believe.

Glauber

01:36:28 – 01:36:48

I think my view is for once, it's a little bit more conciliatory than than yours. Tell me. I'm I'm usually the one spreading discord. Right? And you're and you're the nice guy, but, like, again, I I don't think we've, at the end of the day, disagree, but, like, 1 and this is as far as I understand because, again, I'm not a spokesperson for the Catholic church.

Glauber

01:36:49 – 01:37:14

I don't plan to be. I don't intend to be. I don't think I have what it takes to be, but but best of my knowledge, and some Catholic will correct me if I'm wrong in here, this is the view of the Catholic church. God wrote the book of nature, right, and he revealed himself through scripture, but he also wrote the book of nature in a way that we can understand. So there are many things about nature that you can understand by through science.

Glauber

01:37:14 – 01:37:39

And, again, you don't even need to go to into different religions. By the scientific process itself, you can understand a lot about, if not why, at least how God does the things he does. And, like, some of I I would like to believe, and I do believe that some of those things are equally valid in the spiritual realm. I mean, there are some aspects of God that you can understand and that you can connect to. Right?

Glauber

01:37:39 – 01:38:03

In the same way that Jesus or no Jesus, you jump and you fall because of gravity, there are many things that will be mechanistic in the spiritual world as well. And you could you you could get to them and you can understand that. But, unfortunately, only through Jesus Christ, you can get the fullness of the thing. You can you can fully understand and get the extra mile. So it doesn't mean that you got nothing.

Glauber

01:38:03 – 01:38:33

Right? It doesn't mean that without this, you got nothing. But it does mean that only through this person, if you expire to have the full thing, that is the only way. And again, the reason the reason I believe this is the only way is not because I think it's, you know, it's it's comfortable that this is the only way or this is nice or not nice or exclusive or nonexclusive, is that the person who said that died. And in my experience, people who died tend to stay dead, and, you know, he didn't.

Glauber

01:38:33 – 01:38:45

So Mostly true about this, Ritu. Yeah. You you take him at face value at the end of the day. Right? Because, he he he he said came saying all those crazy stuff, like, yeah, by the way, I made the universe.

Glauber

01:38:45 – 01:38:51

You know, just, I'm I'm I'm God. Nice to meet you. Yep. But you you would think it was just a dead joke, like, Hi, God. Hi, God.

Glauber

01:38:51 – 01:38:55

I'm hungry. Like, this kind of thing. Hi. Hi. Hungry.

Glauber

01:38:55 – 01:39:03

I'm god. There are things like that. But, no, he he he truly he truly did mean it, and he died for it, then he came back. So so that's why I believe it. I mean, it's just look.

Glauber

01:39:03 – 01:39:30

It just it is I would prefer it wasn't like that, but, once you once you accept that but that again, that doesn't mean that the alternative is nothing. The alter like, there is a lot that you can learn, and there is a lot that you can experience, and there's a lot that you that your life can be better or worse or moral or immoral without Jesus, but you can't unfortunately get the fullness of that. And, again, because he said so, so who are we to dispute it? Right?

Aaron

01:39:31 – 01:39:38

Yep. That is that's that's where I fall. He said so. Yeah. And I agree that the heavens declare the handiwork of God.

Aaron

01:39:38 – 01:40:08

I mean, yes. You can You you can and you will see God in nature and you cannot, the Bible is clear about this. No one has an excuse like the the the heavens declare his handiwork. Nobody has an excuse, but yes, I do I do believe that to, accomplish salvation, the only way is through Jesus Christ. And that makes Christianity pretty unpalatable and pretty exclusive.

Aaron

01:40:08 – 01:40:09

And I I get that.

Glauber

01:40:11 – 01:40:25

Adam Taylor says just when I thought they couldn't, he said, live. I'm gonna go on a limb here. Assume he said he meant love. I thought I couldn't love Aaron and Glauber anymore. Wow.

Glauber

01:40:25 – 01:40:37

Love it. Thank you so much, Adam. It means a lot that you're, you're you're tuning in here. Aaron, this was our biggest audience so far. We have, 1,760 6 people on Twitter, watching.

Glauber

01:40:37 – 01:40:57

Again, I don't think they're concurrent, but, like, watching our conversation today. That's fine. And then there there is some chat in here that I'm not gonna get into because, like, people are just chatting. But, I'm gonna call out to Allstep, who's TJ Barber, who just said a big yes, and Josh who's been, who's been taking that discussion. Look.

Glauber

01:40:57 – 01:41:29

It it was a absolute pleasure, having you around, Aaron. I love it. I love it because, look, we we work together, and as a as a community, like, not employer employee or anything like that, but we have here a community of people who meet, who discuss, who are part of the same industry, and we never had those conversations. I am thrilled that I'm able to offer this space to people, that I'm, you know, able to this is something that I I thought for a long time, should I do it? Should I not do it?

Glauber

01:41:29 – 01:41:35

But I felt like I kinda had to do it. Mhmm. And and I'm happy I'm happy I did it, and I'm happy you're here.

Aaron

01:41:36 – 01:41:45

Well, I'm super glad that, you invited me and I was able to do this, and I have enjoyed the other episodes. And so I'm I'm grateful that you're doing this.

Glauber

01:41:46 – 01:41:52

Thank you, Aaron. Thanks, everybody. See you, next time. Bye y'all.

Aaron Francis on being a Christian in tech

Transcript

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