Aaron Francis

Transcript

Ben

00:00:00 – 00:00:08

You know, normally, I feel like I should introduce the guests on the show, but I think you are actually more Internet famous than I am at this point.

Aaron

00:00:10 – 00:00:16

Well, you can you can you can still introduce me. That's that's quite alright. I would love I would love to hear your introduction for me Okay. Especially given the circumstances. What would you say, Ben?

Aaron

00:00:16 – 00:00:17

Yeah. I would say,

Ben

00:00:27 – 00:00:52

is very good at making things. Like, so we you worked at Tupelo for a little while. You applied as a marketer, and you were one of the very few people that actually sent me a list of links to things that you had put on the internet, which is, you know, really the the crux of any good application. It's like, can I click a URL that shows off why you're awesome? And you had several really good examples of that.

Ben

00:00:53 – 00:01:10

Some of them were even Twitter threads, which I think is an underdone underdone move. But, basically, what I saw in you was this is a person who is technical and can make things that developers find interesting, which is which was the basic sketch for our marketing position.

Aaron

00:01:11 – 00:01:11

Mhmm.

Ben

00:01:11 – 00:01:28

And so, yeah, that was I was very excited to hire you. And when I hired you, I think I even said in the announcement to the team, like, I suspect we're going to get to work with Aaron for a while until he goes and starts his own thing. And so I'm happy to take advantage of this narrow window. And I think I was pretty right, actually.

Aaron

00:01:28 – 00:01:30

I think you were pretty right. Yep.

Ben

00:01:30 – 00:01:31

I think

Aaron

00:01:31 – 00:01:33

I can talk about that, but I think you

Ben

00:01:33 – 00:01:35

were pretty right. We call that foreshadowing

Aaron

00:01:35 – 00:01:37

in the business. Yes. Exactly.

Ben

00:01:38 – 00:01:49

But, yes, I we have stayed so you were at Tubal for a little while. You ended up moving over to PlanetScale, which I think was probably a better fit. Makes sense. You're, like, kind of MySQL obsessed. You're not as pair programming obsessed.

Ben

00:01:50 – 00:02:04

So you left on good terms, and we stayed friends. And I would say that you are now one of the you're one of a small group of people that I text and that it feels like a really wonderful, valuable, like, friendship that I have. It has to be, like, bounce ideas off each other and, like, check-in and whatnot.

Aaron

00:02:05 – 00:02:12

Yeah. I was gonna, you know, do the whole podcast thing where it's like, wow, Ben. It's really good to talk to you. But, like, we actually talk a lot. It's it's delightful.

Aaron

00:02:12 – 00:02:24

So this is, not super different except that we have video on. But, yeah, we text, and I think one day on, like, a Sunday afternoon, I just woken up from a nap and had a text from you. And I was like, hey. You wanna talk? I was like, yeah.

Aaron

00:02:24 – 00:02:36

Let's talk. So just be bopped around the house, doing stuff, talking to Ben, and, you know, it's great. I'm I'm glad that I have a small cadre of people that I can talk to like that. It's extremely helpful.

Ben

00:02:36 – 00:02:48

God. Same. Yeah. And, like, this is one of the things that makes me feel, like, super lucky and rich in a way. Like, it makes my life feel rich is, like, the caliber of people that I can text about different things.

Ben

00:02:48 – 00:02:54

Mhmm. And that that I count as friends. Like, that is really kind of, like, just the currency of life to me.

Aaron

00:02:54 – 00:03:06

Yeah. Yeah. Especially, especially in this space when at least I need a lot of in, a lot of insight and time to talk to people, and perhaps you do too.

Ben

00:03:06 – 00:03:25

Yes. I would say I do. And, like, as we've kicked off this podcast, having you as, like, a adviser on it, super valuable. Like, all your video knowledge and your making of interesting marketing asset y things. Being able to text Wavin, Adam Wavin, like, to have, like, someone who has high standards to look at things Yeah.

Ben

00:03:26 – 00:03:36

And to bitch about, you know, the the challenges of running a business. Just it's just so good. It's, like, such a such a positive influence on my life. And I get to pull you in.

Aaron

00:03:36 – 00:03:47

Yeah. It's good to be here. I think, I think we have at least at least one, one bombshell, one big topic, and then we could talk about me too. So where where do you wanna go from here?

Ben

00:03:48 – 00:03:49

I wanna start with a bombshell.

Aaron

00:03:49 – 00:03:51

Alright. Let's do it.

Ben

00:03:51 – 00:03:56

Okay. I have more or less stepped away from day to day work on Tuple.

Aaron

00:03:57 – 00:03:57

Okay.

Ben

00:03:58 – 00:04:05

Yeah. After just under 6 years I think the 6 year mark is coming up in a few weeks, which is crazy. Wow.

Aaron

00:04:05 – 00:04:06

That is crazy.

Ben

00:04:06 – 00:04:19

It's almost the longest time I've spent working on anything. I was at Thoughtbot a little bit longer, but I switched projects a lot inside Thoughtbot. So I think it's the longest I've worked on any one discrete thing. Wow. And I feel great about it.

Ben

00:04:19 – 00:04:25

So whenever I tell people, like, yeah. I just I just stepped away from this the company I've been, like, running, and they're like, congratulations?

Aaron

00:04:26 – 00:04:27

Yeah. I'm sorry.

Ben

00:04:28 – 00:04:30

And I was like, no. No. It's good. It feels great. I was like, okay.

Ben

00:04:30 – 00:04:42

Great. Congrats. And I'm like, yes. So I thought you'd be a great person to talk about this with because we're friends, and I think you ask good questions. And it just felt right to have a buddy on to, like, sorta chat through this thing.

Aaron

00:04:42 – 00:04:47

Yeah. I'm honored. This is exciting. So let's, let's turn the tables. Let's go back a little bit.

Aaron

00:04:47 – 00:05:10

You started this and then your roles I feel like your roles within the company even kind of changed and morphed over time a little bit in the past maybe, I don't know, maybe year or 2, it's been morphing even harder. So before we get to where you're at now, give us, like, the run of started the company, ended up doing a lot of this type of work, and then we can talk about what's next.

Ben

00:05:10 – 00:05:22

Okay. So, yeah, we start so I have 2 cofounders, Joel and Spencer. And, there was, like, this, like, fateful day where we're, like, okay. We decided we're doing this thing. We're all quitting our jobs.

Ben

00:05:22 – 00:05:32

And I think we're starting to talk about, like, incorporation. And I was like, okay. Who who's got what title? Mhmm. And I was like, I want the e.

Ben

00:05:34 – 00:05:41

I think I wanna be CEO. And they're like, alright. Cool. Yep. And so Spencer's CTO and Joel's COO and great conversation.

Ben

00:05:42 – 00:05:44

Took took a whole, like, a minute or 2.

Aaron

00:05:44 – 00:05:44

And I

Ben

00:05:44 – 00:05:55

was like, great. Awesome. So yeah. So I started off with with the e and the way that so, like, you know, what does that actually mean in a in a company of 3 people? Right.

Ben

00:05:55 – 00:06:16

What the actual what the actual division of responsibilities was, okay, we're all technical. Doesn't really make sense to have us all write code. And so, Joel and Spencer were off learning c plus plus and real time streaming and all this and, like, actually coding the app. And I was doing kind of all the other things, which more or less boiled down to sales, marketing, and product. Mhmm.

Ben

00:06:16 – 00:06:38

And I think, honestly, that's a pretty good description of how things went for the first good chunk of time, like like years. And Joel did more operation stuff, like, which in the early days, like, amounted to, like, cooking us lunch sometimes. Just, like, having ingredients and making lunch so we didn't have to spend so much money because we had no income. Yeah. Which actually was important.

Ben

00:06:38 – 00:06:40

And like we ate well and, you know, and cheaply.

Aaron

00:06:40 – 00:06:44

Yeah. I bet those are, I bet those are good memories. Such good memories. Totally.

Ben

00:06:44 – 00:06:59

And like there were a few meals that we, he would repeat over and over and like those meals still, like, feel special to me. Like, they, like, they they feel special in my heart. And, like, we've made that meal for, like, other tuplers when they've joined. I've been, like, this is, like, the this is what we ate all the time. This is one of our go to's.

Ben

00:06:59 – 00:07:08

It just, like, feels those were, like yeah. I mean, those honestly, and this becomes relevant, for this topic. Like, those are my those are really beautiful days.

Aaron

00:07:08 – 00:07:08

Mhmm.

Ben

00:07:09 – 00:07:39

Like, just the the 3 of us against the world in Joel's 2nd bedroom, another operations, gift of, like, you may use this space in my house, and my wife will allow it and not be too mad about it when she comes home and you guys are here still. Yes. Was was another, like, really wonderful contribution. As time went on, Joel ended up doing more operation stuff. Spencer ended up taking more of the programming burden on I pretty much stayed in, like, sales marketing product, pretty much the whole time.

Ben

00:07:39 – 00:07:41

And so those were sort of, like, the the early years.

Aaron

00:07:42 – 00:08:08

And then I feel like moving moving beyond that, y'all recently hired like, you started shedding responsibilities recently, and this is now we know as a, you know, as a move towards stepping back altogether, what was the first thing you shed? Was it sales? Like, was it proper sales or was it something else? Because I feel like you love the product stuff and probably still do. So what what did you start to let go of?

Ben

00:08:09 – 00:08:25

I think it actually it might be worth backing up even a little bit before the shedding of responsibilities. So we hit it's something like, early COVID times. K. So so we we've been in the market for a year when COVID hit. So we were doing, like, nontrivial revenue.

Ben

00:08:25 – 00:08:31

I think we had basically become ramen profitable by that point already. And so we're like, oh my god. We made it. Like, we can pay our rent. We can buy food.

Ben

00:08:31 – 00:08:37

Mhmm. We are unstoppable. And we're still growing. It was very exciting. COVID hit.

Ben

00:08:37 – 00:08:40

The business, like, tripled or something in a month or 2. Mhmm.

Aaron

00:08:41 – 00:08:42

In a month or 2.

Ben

00:08:42 – 00:08:51

Yeah. I think 1 month, we added $50,000 in MRR. This is not a normal month for us now, by the way. We've never repeated it. Right.

Ben

00:08:51 – 00:08:55

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or yeah. Not even close, unfortunately.

Ben

00:08:55 – 00:09:05

But there was, like, you know, a couple months where it's just like Yeah. It just just exploded. Wild times. Amazing times. So it's right around this time period where, we suddenly have a lot more customers.

Ben

00:09:06 – 00:09:20

We can totally afford to hire some people. There's a lot of work to be done. And we've been at this for a while and it's been hard. Like Mhmm. Going from being web developers to coding a native app in c plus plus with real time streaming is not easy, and Spencer bore the brunt of that.

Ben

00:09:21 – 00:09:28

Mhmm. And so he was like, we gotta hire somebody to help me. And we're like, okay. Yeah. And we found somebody.

Ben

00:09:29 – 00:09:31

And his name was Mikey. Still with us.

Aaron

00:09:31 – 00:09:31

It's awesome.

Ben

00:09:32 – 00:09:39

Yeah. And we're like, we gotta hire Mikey. He's like, there's not a lot of people that have, like, experience in the technologies that are relevant to us.

Aaron

00:09:39 – 00:09:43

No. No. Y'all y'all were playing on hard mode for sure.

Ben

00:09:43 – 00:09:47

Exactly. We can't just be like, we need a Rails developer. Oh, no problem. Like, absolutely.

Aaron

00:09:47 – 00:09:50

Throw a stone. I could hit 1. Yeah. Not not so much.

Ben

00:09:50 – 00:09:54

Yeah. Not so much in our space. So we're like, okay. We found somebody. He's got a lot of macOS specific experience.

Ben

00:09:54 – 00:10:03

He knows c plus plus really well. He's built products before. Spencer really likes him. And so we're like, we gotta hire this guy. But he works he lives in France.

Aaron

00:10:03 – 00:10:04

Nice. And so

Ben

00:10:04 – 00:10:19

I was like, okay. Are we a remote remote company? And the answer, like, wasn't totally clear actually because all the 3 of us, we're all in the same place. Right. And I sort of felt this thing was like, okay, It's COVID.

Ben

00:10:19 – 00:10:34

So, like, even if you even if we weren't a remote company, we definitely are right now. Like, we were working together. We decided to, like, pot up and, like, it was it was important to us to be able to work together in person. So we took the risk of, you know, hanging out with each other and working together every day. But so it's like, okay.

Ben

00:10:34 – 00:10:45

Even if we are gonna say we're an in person company, we can't hire somebody for who knows how long. And boy, do we need the help. Right. And we are a remote collaboration tool. Right.

Ben

00:10:45 – 00:10:55

Yep. It's a a bit absurd to say come to Boston. You must come to Boston to work on our remote collaboration tool. These things are clearly yeah. This this all feels very clear and obvious.

Ben

00:10:56 – 00:11:29

At the same time, I know in my heart that I am an in person person. Yep. And I want to work in an office with people. And I remember debating this sort of question with a bunch of people, coaches and friends and all this, and going back and forth and saying, like, I think for me, I know what I want, but I think the company probably needs something different. But if I do the thing that optimizes for the company, I feel a bit like I'm setting a timer.

Ben

00:11:30 – 00:11:33

And eventually, that timer will go off and I will want to leave.

Aaron

00:11:33 – 00:11:34

And here we are.

Ben

00:11:34 – 00:11:42

Here we are. And so I was right, and the timer took about 4 to 5 years to go off.

Aaron

00:11:42 – 00:11:44

Mhmm. Which is a long time.

Ben

00:11:44 – 00:11:50

Which is a long time. But it's basically what happened. So we started hiring remotely. We said, okay. Yep.

Ben

00:11:50 – 00:11:56

We're we're doing it. We're distributed. It it makes too much sense. It makes sense for the business. It makes sense for dogfooding the product every day.

Ben

00:11:56 – 00:12:05

Totally. And, you know, I still got my boys with me. I got Spencer here. I got Joel here. The headquarters is clearly here outside Boston.

Ben

00:12:05 – 00:12:28

Mhmm. We will hire remote folks, and we'll run it from this location. At some point, not too long, maybe it's a maybe a year later, maybe 2021 or so, a property comes for sale on this island off the coast of Maine where Spencer's family has been going for something like 80 years. And it's a beautiful place. He's got a personal connection to this place as well.

Ben

00:12:29 – 00:12:53

It's it's gorgeous. It's where it's it's where he wants to be. And he's, like, sort of always wanted to, like, have a spot on this island, and he decides to buy it. And I feel at the time, like, I I'm sort of sad about this, but I wouldn't I can't imagine stopping you or or even asking you not to do this because, like, part of the point of starting a company is to achieve your dreams. And Exactly.

Ben

00:12:53 – 00:13:16

The starting of the company helped him achieve this dream. And so why would I you know, it made no sense. But, again, what ended up happening is Spencer started spending more and more time at this house of because, of course, it became his more or less his primary residence. And so suddenly our, you know, run this distributed company from a central location became, one of my cofounders is also distributed. Yep.

Ben

00:13:16 – 00:13:32

Which definitely changes the feel of it a lot. And now we're not just like, you know, we don't decide internally and then fan out the information. It's like now we are truly like, all things have to work in a distributed fashion, which again is probably good actually. Like we we it helps fix that.

Aaron

00:13:32 – 00:13:33

For the company, maybe.

Ben

00:13:33 – 00:13:43

For the company. Exactly. But but also, you know, good for the company, less good for Ben. Right. But we sort of soldier on and I keep going.

Ben

00:13:43 – 00:13:56

And honestly, like, oh, I do wanna be clear that, like, most of the most of this was fantastic. Like, I'm mostly having a great time. Like Mhmm. The business worked, which is, like, really makes it a lot more fun. Sure does.

Ben

00:13:56 – 00:13:59

Yep. So it's like, oh, man.

Aaron

00:13:59 – 00:14:00

Revenue solves a lot of problems. Yeah.

Ben

00:14:00 – 00:14:28

Yeah. Yes. Revenue go up, like, equals happy because, you know, I wish it weren't so connected, but, the reality is it's still, like, it's still great. And, like, I'm having deeply fulfilling, rich, interesting experiences and it's the most interesting professional thing I've done by an order of magnitude and I'm feeling fortunate and blessed and appreciating my coworkers. And we get to hire great people, and I get to learn like, work with you and become friends with you and and times all of the other people on the team.

Ben

00:14:29 – 00:14:55

And also, I feel a bit like I'm sort of marching up the wrong mountain. Mhmm. Where it's like, do I wanna become really great at being the CEO of a remote distributed company? And the answer is, like, not really. And as we get larger, the sort of management y bits become harder and more required.

Ben

00:14:55 – 00:15:11

Yeah. And, like, I like kicking around product ideas at lunch And then having someone like roll their chair over to my desk and be like, what do you think of this? And then kinda like a like a slap slapdashy, kinda casual, sloppy product management style, I guess. Yeah. A little a little bit of bebopping.

Ben

00:15:11 – 00:15:12

You you left

Aaron

00:15:12 – 00:15:16

to jam. I like

Ben

00:15:16 – 00:15:29

to jam. Exactly. Yep. And when when it started to be more like, well, no. We really need you to, like, write out what you want in, like, pretty clear details so you can hand it off to someone that lives in a different country and has a bit of a time zone difference from you.

Ben

00:15:30 – 00:15:40

And then that person needs to, like, schedule time to show it to you or, like, sort of all the, you know, all the challenges of a remote thing, it sort of it sort of saps some of my joy.

Aaron

00:15:41 – 00:15:41

Mhmm.

Ben

00:15:42 – 00:15:53

And so I just sort of have this continual tension of, wow, this is the most interesting thing I've ever done professionally, and it's mostly great. And I don't feel like this is my global maximum great.

Aaron

00:15:53 – 00:15:55

Right. And so I live with

Ben

00:15:55 – 00:16:14

that tension for years, and eventually the timer starts, like, ticking ticking down. And it goes from, like, this is this has some drawbacks. This isn't quite globally optimal for me, but it's mostly great. To being more like, no, I really am starting to feel that feeling of, like, I shouldn't walk further up this mountain. Mhmm.

Ben

00:16:15 – 00:16:18

And so I get kind of I start to lose my mojo.

Aaron

00:16:19 – 00:16:19

Yeah.

Ben

00:16:20 – 00:16:28

And yeah. So, like, say, like, 2020 2 or so, maybe early 23, I'm kinda just not having a great time.

Aaron

00:16:29 – 00:16:54

Mhmm. At that point, you feel like you're going you're going on a track that is leading you somewhere that you don't want to be. 1 of your best friends has moved away, and so your little your little tripod is now, I don't know what that would be, 2 people. And it seems like I'll I'll put words in your mouth. To me, that would feel like the good old days are behind us, and I miss that.

Aaron

00:16:54 – 00:16:56

Is that kinda how you felt?

Ben

00:16:58 – 00:17:07

Yeah. More or less. And I hate to characterize it, you know, as just like because that feels just like purely negative. They're they're a part of me inside, a part of my heart hurt

Aaron

00:17:07 – 00:17:08

Of course.

Ben

00:17:08 – 00:17:37

Because, yes, the good old days to me were us in the bedroom or at least, you know, together in person. And, you know, it's not to say that the rest that there wasn't lots of great stuff too. But, yes, it did feel a little bit like, ah, I feel like I had this thing that was that was, like, the thing I wanted, and it sort of slipped through my fingers. And now I have a thing that is still good, but it's not quite what I want. And so I am not great at making myself do things, like, when I have kind of, like,

Aaron

00:17:37 – 00:17:38

fallen out

Ben

00:17:38 – 00:17:49

of love with a thing. And so I would say my performance as CEO suffered during this period. It's like, I think that's just fair to say. And it's,

Aaron

00:17:49 – 00:17:49

you know,

Ben

00:17:49 – 00:17:55

that's a company controversially should probably have a leader that is excited to lead that company.

Aaron

00:17:55 – 00:17:58

That's a very hot take. You're brave to say it.

Ben

00:17:58 – 00:18:04

Yeah. Excited about the constraints of that. Like, excited about the full deal. Right? Looks at the whole package and says, this is cool.

Ben

00:18:04 – 00:18:21

Like, I'm I'm stoked to do this. And for me, I was just sort of, like, I was struggling. Yeah. And I didn't I really I sort of didn't see a way out. I thought kind of, like, I feel like I have to keep running the company, or otherwise, it will be negatively affected.

Ben

00:18:22 – 00:18:45

And even if I didn't feel that way, I don't know what I wanna do next. Mhmm. And I'm really scared to leave without knowing that thing. And I think a lot of that fear came from this experience I had earlier, when I left and I did a sabbatical when I was at thoughtbot. And I took something like 4 months off, and the 1st week was amazing.

Ben

00:18:45 – 00:18:52

Like, woah. I have no responsibilities. This is incredible. And by the 2nd week, I was like, oh my god. I haven't left the apartment in several days.

Ben

00:18:52 – 00:18:57

Yep. No one cares where I am or what I'm doing. And actually, that feels bad.

Aaron

00:18:57 – 00:19:00

Yes. The crushing weight of nothingness.

Ben

00:19:01 – 00:19:07

Yeah. Totally. And I was like, oh, no. I need structure. Otherwise, bad things happen.

Ben

00:19:08 – 00:19:36

And I fortunately was able to find some structure. I ended up teaching at a friend's boot camp out in Denver Oh, cool. Which gave me exactly what I wanted, a bunch of in person interaction, a place to go every day, people expecting me to do something, feeling useful. But I really think I that that lasted a month, and then I had took another couple more months off and I had kind of felt wandery and I kind of felt this like this sadness and malaise and loneliness. And I think I over corrected based on that lesson.

Aaron

00:19:36 – 00:19:37

Interesting.

Ben

00:19:37 – 00:19:49

And I think I sort of set this thing in my head which is like, you can't not know what's next because if you don't have structure, you will be very sad. And I remember expressing this to Spencer and him saying, like, well, you should fix that, dude.

Aaron

00:19:49 – 00:19:53

Like, you should know what, like Good good job, Spencer. Yeah. Wait a minute. You should

Ben

00:19:53 – 00:20:08

be able to, like, go live a life and, like, find some stuff that excites you. Like, if you don't feel that way, you should probably fix that, which I think is correct, actually. Yeah. But I felt stuck. Fortunately, I have 2 really good cofounders.

Ben

00:20:09 – 00:20:30

And one day this summer sorry. Last summer, we did, we do quarterly, like, leadership retreats. And so Joel and Spencer and I and Steven, who was our COO, someone we've sort of hired since then, who became an important part of the leadership structure. We meet up on that island. And we check-in.

Ben

00:20:30 – 00:20:48

How's everybody doing? And for maybe, like, the 3rd or 4th one of these in a row, I say something like, yeah. Like, some days are, like, really good. And, like, I'm feeling, like, really stoked about Tupelo, and I'm really enjoying it. But it never seems to last that long, and I kinda keep feeling like I just go off the rails a little bit.

Ben

00:20:48 – 00:21:09

And they more or less tell me, like, you don't have to do this anymore and maybe you shouldn't. Which was a thing that I had thought but to have someone else say it was kind of like oof. It's like it's not just in my head where I'm like I'm not sure I don't think I'm doing a great job right now.

Aaron

00:21:09 – 00:21:09

Mhmm.

Ben

00:21:09 – 00:21:24

They were kinda like, you either need to, like, get excited about this or you should stop doing it. Said with compassion and care and love as friends. Mhmm. But still is kinda like, oh, okay. I'm not I'm not secretly suffering.

Aaron

00:21:24 – 00:21:25

Mhmm.

Ben

00:21:25 – 00:21:29

My performance is not quietly degrading. It's kinda like everyone's sort of like, it's not

Aaron

00:21:29 – 00:21:30

that fun. Yeah.

Ben

00:21:30 – 00:21:38

Yeah. We know. And, you know, we also think the company should have a leader that is really stoked, and you're not doing that right now. Did you feel

Aaron

00:21:38 – 00:21:57

a great sense of relief when they said, dude, you don't have to do this? Because those are the people, you know, of course, all of the employees, but your cofounders are the people to whom you probably felt the most responsibility and, like, the most Yeah. Like, you owed the most to those 2 or, you know, 3 if you include Steven people, and for them to say, hey, man. You you don't have to do this. Was that a relief?

Ben

00:21:59 – 00:22:16

Not right away. It was kinda just hard in the moment, honestly. And, Spencer, like, I remember such a clear the really clear point to me happened when Spencer said, like, Spencer kind of it felt like he was kind of trying to save me a little bit. Like like a diving save Mhmm. For Ben as CEO.

Ben

00:22:16 – 00:22:37

And he's kind of like he said something like, I know you can do this. Like I know you can be an incredible CEO for 2 people and I just I want to see you do this. Mhmm. And I sort of looked in myself when he said that and I just felt like I just for the thing that came back, which is kinda like, no. Mhmm.

Ben

00:22:38 – 00:22:52

I'm not gonna do it. Like, nothing stirred in me Right. Of, like, like, he gave I mean, it was, like, a really great motivational kind of prompt, and I just got emptiness back from inside me. And that's when I, like, really knew. I was like, no.

Ben

00:22:52 – 00:23:07

I can't. I'm not gonna do this. I can't do it. And so, really, fortunately, once we sort of agreed that it shouldn't be me, Spencer stepped up and, like, offered to do it.

Aaron

00:23:08 – 00:23:12

Did that agreement happen that on that retreat, or did you take It did. Wow.

Ben

00:23:12 – 00:23:32

It did. And in fact, to credit to credit to Steven, Spencer talked about some I think it was some person that he had hired or, like, some sort of extraordinary effort he had gone through to sort of stay in touch with the candidate or something. Mhmm. And Steven said, it kinda sounds like CEO behavior to me. And we were all like, And we've been sort of picturing, like, okay.

Ben

00:23:32 – 00:23:37

We need to start a CEO search. And I was like, that just that does kinda sound like CEO behavior.

Aaron

00:23:37 – 00:23:39

He was here this whole time.

Ben

00:23:39 – 00:23:51

Benzer, do you wanna be CEO? And he was like, maybe. And so we agreed that we would, like, think of like, sleep on it Yeah. For a night. And we all slept on it for a night, and I woke up and I was like, yeah.

Ben

00:23:51 – 00:23:57

That seems good to me. And we all felt that way in the morning. And so Spencer became CEO.

Aaron

00:23:58 – 00:24:12

Wow. And I don't wanna tell Spencer's story or or you to tell Spencer's story, but I feel like he, took a little bit of a step back for a while too, and now he's, like, he's stepping up big time. So of what you can say, like, what was the story there?

Ben

00:24:13 – 00:24:19

I think at various times in the company's history, each of us has had, like, kind of a burnt out period

Aaron

00:24:19 – 00:24:20

Mhmm.

Ben

00:24:20 – 00:24:34

To varying degrees. And I think Spencer had it maybe the strongest, which is fair because he was under, I think, the most pressure. Yeah. Like the sales and marketing and product were all kind of in my wheelhouse. Mhmm.

Ben

00:24:34 – 00:24:53

And they were going pretty well. And this whole, like, learn this whole new area and try to build this complicated app. And by the way and, like, we sort of honestly, we should have hired someone sooner. Like, when we hired Mikey, it was it was late. Sensors had worked, like, so hard to, like, make this thing work and keep it going and poured himself into this problem.

Ben

00:24:53 – 00:24:56

And, learning it all from scratch, by

Aaron

00:24:56 – 00:24:56

the way. Right?

Ben

00:24:56 – 00:25:03

Learning it all from scratch. Yeah. Which is, like, a such a strength of his, like, a willingness to just throw himself into it. Like, I have to learn all this stuff. Okay.

Ben

00:25:03 – 00:25:09

Here's how I will do it. Here are the books. Here are the coaches. Like, that is his thing. And and the thing that he's amazing at.

Ben

00:25:09 – 00:25:34

But I think we didn't really appreciate, like, how much we had asked of him. Yeah. And and, like, what it had taken out of him. And so I think Spencer had to sort of, like, I'm kinda burned out moments more strongly than a bit earlier. And so there was a period where he was looking to step back, and we sort of just, like, didn't get it done.

Ben

00:25:34 – 00:25:53

Like, we were trying to hire a CTO for a while, and I think this was, like, kind of during a time where I was not whereas, you know, I was I was still kinda struggling. And we kinda couldn't find anybody, and that idea just kinda died. And it was kinda like, do you mind just, like, kinda keeping going? And he was like, okay. And I think he, like, he took some time off in there.

Ben

00:25:53 – 00:26:11

Like, we found some ways to, like, get him some space and some time, and I think he feels felt okay about, like, continuing to do that. And, actually, now, I think he might be at his most stoked. Danger of putting words in people's mouth. Sure. But, I think there is a I think there has been a reinvigoration.

Aaron

00:26:11 – 00:26:29

That's amazing. It sounds to me like just as kind of a tangent. The 3 of y'all have an incredible relationship. I mean, if you went through that and Spencer went through that and who knows what Joel went through and everybody is still together and still best buds, it's like, that is something to be prized. I don't think that's very common.

Ben

00:26:30 – 00:26:41

I super agree with that. I feel very lucky. Yeah. I think, like, I won the cofounder lottery. And I think the 3 of us in particular have such different strengths Mhmm.

Ben

00:26:42 – 00:26:56

That we, like, really like, together, the triumvirate, like, really presents a pretty strong it's like a pretty, like, strong combo. And part of, I think one of our strengths is that we do, like, just deal with stuff really well. Mhmm. And there's so many things to deal with. You know?

Ben

00:26:56 – 00:27:12

There's so many hard conversations and tricky things and possible disagreements. And I would feel like we've had, given what we've been through, we have, like, so little conflict and have, like, resolved stuff so well. Yeah. So as always, shout out to my cofounders Yeah.

Aaron

00:27:12 – 00:27:12

Who made this

Ben

00:27:12 – 00:27:13

all possible.

Aaron

00:27:13 – 00:27:29

Give given people you can trust and the ability to communicate, you can solve pretty much anything, and it sounds like you'll have. So that's pretty awesome. So you have this retreat. Spencer's like Mhmm. I'm I'm CEO now, and Ben is now what?

Aaron

00:27:29 – 00:27:31

What happened? Like, where do you go from there?

Ben

00:27:32 – 00:27:41

Right. So we agree that Tuple still needs a product person. K. Like someone with, like, really good product taste. And so okay.

Ben

00:27:41 – 00:27:55

I can step out of the CEO position, but we need a product to be managed still. And so I basically I moved ahead of product. It becomes my new title. And the idea is, okay. I'm not gonna do marketing or sales or hiring or any of this, or, like, high level strategy necessarily.

Ben

00:27:55 – 00:28:13

I'm just going to be focused on product work. Mhmm. And it's it's really hard. I like I go home to my parents and I cry. Like, it is it there was some relief in, like, okay, I'm finally on this path of, like, moving away from this thing that I feel like I had to do.

Ben

00:28:13 – 00:28:16

Mhmm. But it still felt pretty terrible.

Aaron

00:28:17 – 00:28:20

The work itself or, like, where you saw yourself heading?

Ben

00:28:21 – 00:28:26

Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So you make me head of product, but, like and then I go home that day

Aaron

00:28:26 – 00:28:26

Mhmm.

Ben

00:28:27 – 00:28:44

And am, like, pretty distraught. And that continues for a decent bit. Like, it is I was kind of shocked at the degree to which no longer being the CEO, like, kinda crashed my ego. Right. And I had, like, a lot of myself wrapped up in this identity that had been mine for a long time.

Ben

00:28:45 – 00:28:53

And I felt like I felt a little bit of shame, whereas, like, I didn't go out on a, like, a high note. Mhmm. You know? Like, hey. We're crushing it, and I'm I'm gonna run off into the sunset.

Ben

00:28:53 – 00:28:55

It was like, I am crushed.

Aaron

00:28:55 – 00:28:55

Right.

Ben

00:28:55 – 00:29:13

And I am very sad. And, like, I agree this is the right thing to do, and it still hurts a lot. So I won't lie to you. It was it was a tough couple weeks I would say and we have this now really tricky situation to negotiate where it's like, okay. I still work at the company.

Ben

00:29:13 – 00:29:32

I've given all this control and responsibility to somebody else. I haven't really solved my problem yet. I'm not really on the path, that I feel like I still there's still constraints here. And there's this weird social thing, which is just like the leadership just changed dramatically. Right.

Ben

00:29:32 – 00:29:53

And how do we negotiate this? And, like, I want Spencer to be successful, and and Spencer wants me to be successful. But like any human relationship, we are somewhat frequently mismodeling the other person. Right. And I am deferring to him in ways that he does not want me to do, and he is trying to make my work life better in ways that I don't actually appreciate or don't want.

Ben

00:29:54 – 00:30:01

And we are sort of just, like, trying to help Yes. Each other and meaning well and not quite nailing it and missing Yeah.

Aaron

00:30:01 – 00:30:12

We call that HLEPING. It's a it's a typo for help. It's h l e p. It's like when you really try to help, but you make it worse, dad slept a lot. You're like, dad, I actually I don't need you to help with that.

Aaron

00:30:12 – 00:30:22

You that's you're actually making this worse, and I'm I'm bracing myself for that as a dad. But it's like, hey. I appreciate that effort. This actually is not helping.

Ben

00:30:23 – 00:30:31

That's yes. Oh, man. That's such a great concept. I can't I I'm so glad you brought that up because I can't wait to deploy that. That was, like, such a great place to hang that, like, idea because that is yeah.

Ben

00:30:31 – 00:30:37

That's totally a thing. We were hyping each other a lot. Yep. And even if we had done it perfectly, it was still hard. Mhmm.

Ben

00:30:37 – 00:30:45

Like, it's just tough. I mean, there's ego involved. There's complex social dynamics. Like, imagine being at Tupelo that time. Yeah.

Ben

00:30:45 – 00:30:48

And, like, suddenly this change is happening. You're like, oh, okay. How do I handle this?

Aaron

00:30:48 – 00:30:48

And I'm

Ben

00:30:48 – 00:31:05

like, yeah. It's kinda weird. So it's a bit of a rough transition, but we do it overall, I would say, pretty well. Like, over like, considering the challenges there, it doesn't take that long. And within a couple months, actually, I think we're kind of, like, settled in.

Ben

00:31:05 – 00:31:16

And so this is, like, fall ish, maybe, like, early winter 2023. We're, like, we're actually kinda there. Mhmm. And, like, it feels like it's starting to work. And I'm seeing Spencer be CEO, and he's doing a good job.

Ben

00:31:17 – 00:31:22

And I'm like, okay. Nice. It's like Feels good. Goodness. And, like yeah.

Ben

00:31:23 – 00:31:36

And that feels really great. And once again, he's doing the thing he does, which is, like, he learns the things he has to learn. He finds the coaches he has to find. He gets the support he needs, and he's taken on the a hard thing and and thrown himself into it.

Aaron

00:31:36 – 00:31:52

He is so good at, finding external support, whether that's pair programming coaches for learning new languages or business. He's just like, I wish I was better. I wish I even had that thought. It's not like I think about it and then I'm like, ah, I don't need a coach. It's like, oh, wow.

Aaron

00:31:52 – 00:31:55

There are actually coaches out there for that. You know, he's good at that.

Ben

00:31:55 – 00:32:01

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. He has the right I think he has great impulses when he's, like, got a new challenge.

Aaron

00:32:01 – 00:32:01

Mhmm.

Ben

00:32:01 – 00:32:12

And that was one of the things he he promised the team when we announced him taking over. It was he's like, I don't know how to do all of the things the CEO needs to know how to do right now, but I will learn them.

Aaron

00:32:13 – 00:32:14

That's what you want. That's

Ben

00:32:14 – 00:32:26

what you want. So around this time period, we hire a really important person. His name is Eli, and he is starts off as a product lead for us.

Aaron

00:32:26 – 00:32:29

I got an email from Eli this morning. In fact Yes.

Ben

00:32:29 – 00:32:29

He did.

Aaron

00:32:30 – 00:32:31

It was a great email.

Ben

00:32:31 – 00:32:33

Uh-huh. Yeah. Eli knows how to write a good email.

Aaron

00:32:33 – 00:32:34

He does.

Ben

00:32:34 – 00:32:37

Which is the thing I love in a person. Yep. A good email.

Aaron

00:32:37 – 00:32:37

If you

Ben

00:32:37 – 00:32:38

can write a good email

Aaron

00:32:38 – 00:32:40

Straight to Ben's heart. That's the way.

Ben

00:32:40 – 00:32:44

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yep. That is that is my love language. Just great emails.

Ben

00:32:45 – 00:32:48

Great writing. And you wrote a great post today, by the way.

Aaron

00:32:48 – 00:32:50

Oh, thank you. Straight to your heart, I hope.

Ben

00:32:50 – 00:32:59

Yes. It did. Yeah. Absolutely. And, I'm pretty candid with Eli actually pretty early on, which is like I view you as my eventual replacement.

Ben

00:33:00 – 00:33:21

So, like, I'm excited to work with you and excited to, like, teach you the things that I think I know probably. But I think you're the guy. And it turns out, it seems like that was right. Eli is amazing from the start and just kind of we hire him ostensibly to run a small project within the company. Mhmm.

Ben

00:33:21 – 00:33:34

And very quickly, he has sort of tactfully, intelligently gobbled up more of all the surrounding projects as well. And I'm very and much to my happiness. Right. This is what I want.

Aaron

00:33:34 – 00:33:37

You're you're actively ceding ground to him. Yeah.

Ben

00:33:37 – 00:33:53

Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. And it feels great because you try to see, like, oh, this is what a really engaged product leader looks like. This is what someone who's fresh and excited does And also who has more experience working remotely than I do.

Ben

00:33:53 – 00:34:17

And, like, this is how you like, has all this, like, wisdom. And so pretty fast it's like, I'm starting to feel the feeling like, okay. I think, actually, I can hand off the last thing I'm doing. As that feeling starts to build and, right around this time, Joel's wife has a baby. And so Joel has been my work buddy Yep.

Ben

00:34:17 – 00:34:23

Since Spencer left. Or, like, he's the other guy coming to the office. So we have a little co working space near our houses.

Aaron

00:34:24 – 00:34:25

And I see where this is going.

Ben

00:34:26 – 00:34:58

Yes. And Joel and I are not working together together, but we work next to each other, and we talk about work, and we go to and we have lunch and we, you know, go to yoga and we're we're, like, very, very close friends and work buddy work work acquaintances, you know, like, we sort of yeah. And when, Joel's wife is getting close to having this baby, he basically says, I think actually I'm just gonna step away. Mhmm. Like I'm gonna take paternity leave, but also like I think I should probably just like shed my 2 prongibilities and like maybe I'll come back.

Ben

00:34:58 – 00:35:12

I don't know. But let's let's not assume that I guess and yeah, I think I'm mostly stepping away and I might just wanna take care of my baby for a while. Yep. And which is, you know, again, a beautiful accomplishment of dreams.

Aaron

00:35:12 – 00:35:20

Exactly. What a beautiful, wonderful thing that is great for him and makes Ben sad. Like, yep. Again.

Ben

00:35:21 – 00:35:23

Yep. Again. So happy for you.

Aaron

00:35:23 – 00:35:28

So happy for you. So sad. So happy. So still a little sad for myself, though.

Ben

00:35:28 – 00:35:45

Yep. And 5 or 6 weeks ago, it's like Joel's official, like, last day happens. And some number of weeks ago, about that long, I wake up in the middle of the night. It's like 3 AM or something. It's been a couple days since Joel's like official last day.

Ben

00:35:46 – 00:36:01

And I realize there's no office for me to go to with anybody in it. And I just kinda start sobbing. In bed, just curled up crying. And I feel like I'm sort of mourning the end of an era.

Aaron

00:36:01 – 00:36:02

Of course.

Ben

00:36:02 – 00:36:07

It's like that that part is now it's just really gone now. Yeah. Like, it was you know, it was kinda gone before, but now it really is.

Aaron

00:36:08 – 00:36:15

If this is a sitcom, this is where everyone moves out of the apartment, and they look back and they think, wow. We had some good times in the apartment, didn't we?

Ben

00:36:15 – 00:36:22

Yep. Yep. Yep. And I'm feeling that hard, and it hurts. And it doesn't last that long, though.

Aaron

00:36:23 – 00:36:23

Ben

00:36:23 – 00:36:42

I, like, I'm crying, and I kinda stop. I, like, let the the grief comes out. And then I feel this, like, like, clarity kind of hit me all at once, which is, like, I'm getting out of here. I'm gonna I'm gonna drop my involvement to 2 pull down to, like, a minimal level, and I'm gonna go to New York City.

Aaron

00:36:43 – 00:36:45

Oh, so getting out of here and here means everything.

Ben

00:36:46 – 00:36:54

Here means everything. Because I'm also thinking about my life in Somerville, the city I live in outside Boston. And it feels like it has also sort of shrunk. Mhmm.

Aaron

00:36:54 – 00:36:55

And,

Ben

00:36:55 – 00:37:10

like, in the previous months, I've sort of noticed, like, a number of my friendships have kind of drifted apart a little bit. And I'm doing fewer activities and I'm feeling less value, like, about where I live. Mhmm. And I met somebody and he was like, oh, like, where do you live? And I was like, oh, Summerville.

Ben

00:37:10 – 00:37:13

He's like, oh, wow. He's like, you could live anywhere. Right? And I'm like, yeah. Because, like, we we're remote.

Ben

00:37:13 – 00:37:19

I could go live anywhere I want. And he's like, oh, so you must really love Summerville. It must be, like, the perfect place for you because it could be anywhere.

Aaron

00:37:19 – 00:37:21

And you're like, I was like, hang on.

Ben

00:37:22 – 00:37:27

Yeah. Yes. That's true.

Aaron

00:37:27 – 00:37:29

Well meaning stranger. You've just thrown me into disarray.

Ben

00:37:30 – 00:37:44

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I guess I agree with that. I'm having trouble justifying that position currently, but I'm sure I could. And so I'm already kinda like, is this the right place for me?

Ben

00:37:45 – 00:37:54

And at 3:30 in the morning, post cry, I'm like, no. It is not. Yep. I'm getting the hell out of here. I need to change.

Ben

00:37:55 – 00:38:14

Mhmm. I need my life to be different. I'm like way too in my current rut of this place I've been for a long time and I need I need to shake everything up like right now. And so very quickly, I tell the guys, like, alright. I'm gonna go down to a max of 10 hours a week.

Ben

00:38:15 – 00:38:22

And I wanna we're gonna promote Eli to head of product because he obviously is the head of product. This is just correcting the the record.

Aaron

00:38:22 – 00:38:22

Mhmm.

Ben

00:38:22 – 00:38:39

And I'm going to New York. And I'm gonna, like, look for adventure and interesting things to happen. And that plan has been running since then, and that has happened. You got an email from Eli comma head of products today. I did.

Ben

00:38:40 – 00:38:47

That's the thing. I'm officially out. I left the leadership channel on Slack. Mhmm.

Aaron

00:38:47 – 00:38:47

So I

Ben

00:38:47 – 00:38:56

am not on the leadership team. Now I'm on the I'm on the owner's team. Man. I'm an adviser to Tupelo. I am a resource for Eli when he wants it.

Ben

00:38:56 – 00:39:06

I'm happy to take a call with anyone that needs it. I record this podcast. And that is that is what I'm doing. That's my involvement with the company right now.

Aaron

00:39:07 – 00:39:12

Wow. Rarely are there such symbolic discrete actions as leaving the leadership channel

Ben

00:39:12 – 00:39:13

Mhmm.

Aaron

00:39:13 – 00:39:23

In Slack. It's like, this is the this is the point. Like, this is the head of the spear right here. It is happening. Had to feel kinda weird.

Ben

00:39:23 – 00:39:25

Honestly, it felt really good.

Aaron

00:39:25 – 00:39:27

There. There's the relief. Okay.

Ben

00:39:28 – 00:39:37

It felt right. Yes. It has finally felt right. It wasn't until I got until, like, this last phase Mhmm. Of, like, actually, I wanna renegotiate my commitment to the company.

Ben

00:39:37 – 00:39:56

Mhmm. I wanna, like, set my compensation appropriately given that thing. I wanna tell everyone that I'm doing this thing, and I wanna be open with the fact that the reason I'm doing this is because I am now trying to find the next thing for me. Yep. And once I did those things and came to New York Mhmm.

Ben

00:39:57 – 00:40:02

And started meeting really interesting people, it all started to feel really, really good.

Aaron

00:40:02 – 00:40:29

So judging from the outside, you know, of course, I have inside info, but just judging from the outside, I feel like I am witnessing the rebirth of Ben. I feel like this is this is you kind of coming back into your zone of not only expertise, but, like, joy and happiness. I mean, you're putting out these you're putting out these videos on Twitter that are just, 1, going crazy. Everybody loves them. But, 2, you can tell it's like, oh, Ben Ben's back.

Aaron

00:40:29 – 00:40:40

This is fun. And it seems it seems like that has happened in the past 2 months maybe. So Yes. Tell tell us the rebirth of Ben. You moved to New York City, and what happened?

Ben

00:40:43 – 00:40:47

What happened? So yeah. So I I'm here. So it's I've been here for 20 days. K.

Aaron

00:40:47 – 00:40:48

And so

Ben

00:40:48 – 00:41:02

I said, okay. I'm initially gonna do, like, a scouting mission. I'm gonna go there for 3 weeks and see how it feels. And so I'm staying in a friend's apartment while he's traveling, and it's been awesome. Like, I started just having, like, lots of coffees with founders Mhmm.

Ben

00:41:02 – 00:41:14

And being like, oh, yeah. I know some stuff. Mhmm. Like, the thing that I that first Twitter video that I recorded, which has still been the best one to date, like, 100 of thousands of views at this this point, I think. And it's still I still see it bouncing around.

Ben

00:41:14 – 00:41:16

Like, you know, you still get the notifications from it. Like Is

Aaron

00:41:16 – 00:41:17

that the pricing one?

Ben

00:41:18 – 00:41:28

Yeah. Like, a new company shouldn't have a pricing page, shouldn't have a on like, you should mainly onboard people that that thing. Thanks. That was something I told a founder that I had coffee with. Yep.

Ben

00:41:28 – 00:41:37

And he was like, this is really useful. And he talked to his cofounder, and he's like then he told me a couple days later. He's like, because of that conversation, we are dramatically changing our strategy. Love it. And I was like, oh.

Aaron

00:41:37 – 00:41:39

God. It's gotta feel good.

Ben

00:41:39 – 00:41:53

Yeah. I learned some things. Yeah. I know some stuff, and, hopefully, that is turns out to be the right strategy for them. But I'm pretty sure I learned some stuff and, like, people and I'm having coffee with people and they're, like, seeming to value the feedback I'm giving them.

Ben

00:41:53 – 00:42:01

And so I recorded that video because, like, he responded so positively to that idea. Mhmm. So I was like, oh, I should, like, publish this out. And I was like, I should write a blog post. That sounds annoying.

Ben

00:42:01 – 00:42:15

Let me just record a video where I talk about it real fast. Yep. And that that blew up and did really well. And so, yes, I feel like I am sort of rediscovering things I love, which is, like, teaching the things that I have learned. I'm also being, like, aggressively in person.

Ben

00:42:16 – 00:42:16

Yeah.

Aaron

00:42:16 – 00:42:20

I was I was gonna say having coffee with founders is different than having Zoom with founders.

Ben

00:42:21 – 00:42:31

So different. Yep. And so, like, I'm, like, declining Zooms and remote things. Like, you're you're one of the few people I'm talking to remotely, because I'm like, no. No.

Ben

00:42:31 – 00:42:48

Like, come meet me here. Otherwise, I'm not into it, with some exceptions. But I also feel like I'm kind of coming back online Mhmm. In a way that has surprised me where I I'm like, oh, wow. I sort of didn't notice what a funk I was in until the funk started lifting.

Aaron

00:42:48 – 00:42:48

Mhmm.

Ben

00:42:48 – 00:42:56

And I'm like, oh, right. There's my excitement. I'm actually usually really excited. Mhmm. And, like, I'm very good at getting excited about the future.

Ben

00:42:56 – 00:43:19

And I haven't felt that for a little bit, but it's coming back now. And I actually feel like I have swung past even my old highs, and I'm now kind of, like, actually feeling really optimistic. I've sort of found my people here in New York. And so I'm I'm coming to the end of the sort of initial scouting mission. I've already booked another 6 weeks, in a coliving community here, which is, like, the most social A

Aaron

00:43:19 – 00:43:24

coliving community. What it what it I mean, I can intuit, but tell me, what does that mean?

Ben

00:43:25 – 00:43:33

It is a group of people that are sort of, like, loosely affiliated Okay. Who live near each other and wanna do life together.

Aaron

00:43:33 – 00:43:34

Amazing.

Ben

00:43:34 – 00:43:38

So there's this like the sort of center of this is like these loft apartments.

Aaron

00:43:38 – 00:43:39

Okay.

Ben

00:43:39 – 00:43:42

And, there's I think that at this point, the the community has rented something

Aaron

00:43:42 – 00:43:44

to, like, 12 of them. Wow.

Ben

00:43:44 – 00:43:58

And And there's, like, sort of, like, a a shared, community space that has lots of events and people hanging out. And, it's a lot of people. There's actually a number of people in my position. There's like a it's like a lot of software engineers, a lot of whom are between things.

Aaron

00:43:58 – 00:43:58

Amazing.

Ben

00:43:58 – 00:44:14

Whether, yeah, they're kinda like, oh, yeah. Like, I just left my company, and I'm not sure what I'm gonna do. So I was here because everyone here seems really cool and likes to build stuff and is optimistic about the future and our ability to shape it. And I've met some, like, really incredible people, and I'm just like, oh, yeah. This is this is what I want.

Ben

00:44:14 – 00:44:24

This is the opposite of working remotely from home by myself. And it feels like super right. And so I'm gonna start with 6 weeks, starting in April.

Aaron

00:44:24 – 00:44:52

This is the dream. Like, I I don't know about everybody else, but this is my dream. Maybe well, actually, definitely not in New York City, but to have all of my friends, like, in the same little block neighborhood, whatever, and we can all just kinda, like, dork around and walk over to each other's houses, and that is that is the platonic ideal. And I didn't know that, like, co living communities existed. And so it sounds like you have found that.

Ben

00:44:52 – 00:44:56

Yes. Yeah. I really have. It's called Fractal, by the way.

Aaron

00:44:56 – 00:44:56

Okay.

Ben

00:44:56 – 00:45:02

It's fractalnyc.org or com or something, but Fractal NYC will get you the the site and you can sort of see some more about it.

Aaron

00:45:02 – 00:45:04

Did you have to apply?

Ben

00:45:06 – 00:45:22

No. Okay. I started following one of the founders on Twitter on a whim and DM ed him as part of my, like, oh, I should, like, reach out to people that live in New York that seem interesting. And within 5 minutes of meeting him and his wife, I was just like, oh, yeah. This is yep.

Ben

00:45:22 – 00:45:29

These are my people. I'm in. Love it. I'm going I'm I'm I'm all in on this. And the more that more people I've met in this, like, Fractal community, the more I've just been like, oh, god.

Ben

00:45:29 – 00:45:31

Yes. I'm still yeah. This is what I want.

Aaron

00:45:31 – 00:45:33

Fractal is a cool name too.

Ben

00:45:33 – 00:45:34

Right? I think

Aaron

00:45:34 – 00:45:34

it's really cool.

Ben

00:45:35 – 00:45:47

And the the long term ambitions of Fractal are awesome and motivating to me and and great. So I'm, like, I'm just, like, very stoked. Yeah. So I was already really liking New York before I found this community. And I was like, oh, yeah.

Ben

00:45:47 – 00:45:51

The energy is here. I'm enjoy like, every day I feel a little more conviction. Like, okay. This feels right. This feels right.

Ben

00:45:51 – 00:46:05

This feels right. And then last week, I just, like, stumbled onto this, and I was like, okay. It's even more right than I thought. Here is in fact the center of the right bull's eye. And so I'm feeling, like, really excited.

Ben

00:46:05 – 00:46:22

I talked to my mom last night, and she's sad because she wants me to live close to her, of course. And I want that too, eventually. But she, you know, she heard me talk about this for an hour, and she said, well, it's pretty clear there's no talking to you out of this.

Aaron

00:46:22 – 00:46:22

Moms know.

Ben

00:46:22 – 00:46:23

I'm not even gonna try.

Aaron

00:46:23 – 00:46:25

Moms always know.

Ben

00:46:25 – 00:46:36

She's like, part of me wants to, but that's it's obvious that's not gonna work. So I I think you gotta do it. Awesome. I think I got you too. So I even got the mom somewhat reluctant stamp of approval.

Aaron

00:46:36 – 00:46:42

Yeah. That's when when they when mom says, well, I'm not gonna try, that's a pretty big bar because mom's left to try to get you to come home.

Ben

00:46:43 – 00:46:47

Oh, yes. Yeah? Oh, yes. And I think I can do both. I can like Boston's not that far.

Ben

00:46:47 – 00:46:57

I'm going to go home a lot. I love my family a lot. I like spending a lot of time with them. I intend to do that still. But my heart is telling me, like, you gotta be in New York right now.

Aaron

00:46:57 – 00:46:57

This is

Ben

00:46:58 – 00:47:00

all this all the signs are coming back positive.

Aaron

00:47:00 – 00:47:12

So I'm seeing everyone's seeing the rebirth of Ben coming back. What so it sounds like, relationally, you're in your sweet spot. You're getting to hang out with people in person. You're having fun. You're you're enjoying the living.

Aaron

00:47:12 – 00:47:16

What does the working look like? What are you looking for now on the work front?

Ben

00:47:17 – 00:47:24

I don't know, and I feel great about that. Great. Yeah. Starting things is probably the answer. Okay.

Ben

00:47:25 – 00:47:41

Starting stuff slash helping things that I think are good work. Mhmm. I don't know what the specifics of any of those are going to be, and that feels totally good to me actually right now. Like, maybe never like, I thought the lack of structure was gonna feel terrible. Mhmm.

Ben

00:47:41 – 00:47:58

But I have that lack of structure plus what feels like a huge fields of opportunity. Yeah. And that actually feels really good where it's like, I like that my calendar is not full of things. I like that I don't quite know what's gonna happen. I'm excited to pour effort and resources into things that seem promising.

Aaron

00:47:59 – 00:47:59

Mhmm.

Ben

00:47:59 – 00:48:07

But I I might never have quite this much freedom again, and I'm really just appreciating, like, that I don't need to rush into knowing the answer to, like, the what is next question.

Aaron

00:48:08 – 00:48:26

Yeah. I love that. And that's a huge I mean, that's a huge turn from earlier in the story when you went on your sabbatical and you were totally lost. Like, this is that's amazing. And that gives you a that gives you a luxury that very few have, which is, like, finding the right next thing instead of just saying, holy crap.

Aaron

00:48:26 – 00:48:27

I gotta get something right now.

Ben

00:48:28 – 00:48:49

Absolutely. I feel zero rush on that partly because I want the next things to be, like, really great for me. Yeah. And so I'm intentionally casting a very wide net, or it's like it might look pretty weird to, like, a year ago, Ben, what I end up choosing. But I have a hunch, like, there's some really great things that are completely outside what I would have considered if I'd made a list of, like, what I might do next.

Aaron

00:48:50 – 00:48:55

Yep. You are currently in the explore phase of the explore exploit, and

Ben

00:48:55 – 00:48:56

you can

Aaron

00:48:56 – 00:49:00

go as wide as you want until you find the thing that you can drill down on, which is a nice a nice feeling.

Ben

00:49:01 – 00:49:08

Totally. Yep. It feels it feels great. Yeah. The community is great by the way.

Ben

00:49:08 – 00:49:24

If like hearing me describe this tickles something in your brain and you're like, Oh, I think I wanna be part of that. Like, you should check it out. Like, you should maybe reach out to me or at least read the website and see what see what's there because, the more the merrier of the right people in some sense. Mhmm. If you're if you get the right vibe.

Ben

00:49:25 – 00:49:34

So I would like more people to show up and join this thing, and I'll be there. We can hang out. We'd be friends. Yeah. And, eventually, I don't know.

Ben

00:49:34 – 00:49:36

We'll see. We'll see what happens for me.

Aaron

00:49:37 – 00:49:50

Well, I'm excited for you. I'm I'm excited. Yeah. I'm excited to see you try, something new. I think you faithfully executed your role at Tuple for a very long time, and you should take great pride in that.

Aaron

00:49:50 – 00:49:57

And now I'm excited to see what's next. I mean, I don't know what it's gonna be, but I bet it's gonna be fun.

Ben

00:49:58 – 00:50:07

That's actually what I'm optimizing for. Yeah. Like, someone asked me the other day, like, what's your north star right now? And I was just like, excitement. Just like, how stoked am I about the things I'm doing?

Ben

00:50:07 – 00:50:12

Like, when I look at my calendar, when I look at what I'm going to do, like, am I really excited or not? That's like I'm like, you could just follow that.

Aaron

00:50:12 – 00:50:20

A lot worse north stars. And maybe you couldn't choose many better north stars than, like, what am I excited about? Let's let's follow that.

Ben

00:50:20 – 00:50:32

And and that's what works for me. Like, I'm not good at working hard on something when I'm not excited about it. But when I am, I'm, like, pretty happy to throw myself into things. Yeah. It Doesn't feel like work anymore because I'm excited about it.

Ben

00:50:32 – 00:50:56

And there's a point I wanted to make. I wrote a blog post maybe 10 years ago at this point on the thought bot blog, and the title is clear your mental cash. And the point was, for a long time, I thought I was a really bad dancer because at one point, someone had I'd kind of gotten the feedback from culture and society that, like, I was not that good at dancing. And so I was like, oh, I'm bad at dancing. I know the answer to this.

Ben

00:50:56 – 00:51:07

Am I good at dancing? No. I'm bad at dancing. And then I, like, went to a couple dance classes, and I noticed I was picking it up way faster than the other people in the class. And I was like, that's weird.

Ben

00:51:07 – 00:51:15

And someone was like, how many of these have you been to? And I'm like, this is my first one. They're like, this is your first one? And I'm like, yeah. That's weird.

Ben

00:51:15 – 00:51:38

And I realized I had this old belief in my cache, which is just like bad dancing, true. And I needed to clear that because it wasn't true anymore. Like, something changed. And my mental cash also definitely held lack of structure equals scary, sad, lonely, bad. Like, not not having not knowing what my job is is is that thing.

Ben

00:51:38 – 00:51:47

And it was based on this, like, scary touch the stove experience. Like, okay. I'm not gonna touch that stove again. And, it was outdated. I needed to be invalidated.

Ben

00:51:47 – 00:51:58

And so I am once again reminded that it's really easy to carry around these values and not recompute them because it's expensive and a little scary, but they often get stale.

Aaron

00:51:59 – 00:52:21

They get stale and, frankly, you just take it as true. You don't ever revisit it. And, again, it's one of those things where it's like, it's not that I'm actively holding on to this. It's that I just haven't even thought about going back to the source and seeing if it's actually true. And I feel like that in that in itself is a skill to look at these things that you're taking as givens and being like, hang on.

Aaron

00:52:21 – 00:52:30

Is that still given? Is that still true? And by the way, you gotta make a Twitter video out of this. This is great. Mental cash, like, just do it again.

Aaron

00:52:30 – 00:52:33

You wrote a blog post. Just make a video. This is a great video.

Ben

00:52:33 – 00:52:34

Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Alright. I'll do it.

Ben

00:52:34 – 00:52:40

I'll add some of my list. Good. So see, this is a good this is one reason it's great to have friends.

Aaron

00:52:40 – 00:52:41

Uh-huh. Like, that

Ben

00:52:41 – 00:52:42

that hit that hit me.

Aaron

00:52:42 – 00:52:43

You gotta you gotta tell everyone.

Ben

00:52:43 – 00:52:43

Put it

Aaron

00:52:43 – 00:52:44

on the Twitter, man.

Ben

00:52:45 – 00:52:51

Uh-huh. Yep. Exactly. This is right. Especially friends that are used to publishing.

Ben

00:52:51 – 00:52:57

Mhmm. And they go, oh, you should you should make this. And I I gave that feedback to someone the other night at dinner. Like, he said something really smart. I'm like, you should you should make this.

Ben

00:52:57 – 00:53:07

Write this down. Tell more people this is true and is unique like, sort of a unique insight. You should get it out there. Speaking of friends, speed of making things and getting them out there.

Aaron

00:53:08 – 00:53:11

Return it. We are returning the turntables again.

Ben

00:53:11 – 00:53:13

I think are are you up for it?

Aaron

00:53:13 – 00:53:13

I'm ready. Yeah.

Ben

00:53:14 – 00:53:17

Yeah. You ready? Okay. Yeah. So that's so that's that's what's up that's me with me.

Ben

00:53:17 – 00:53:19

What's what's done with me?

Aaron

00:53:19 – 00:53:20

That's a lot.

Ben

00:53:20 – 00:53:27

That's a quick summary of what's going on with me. Only only took us an hour. Yeah. Is anything going on with you?

Aaron

00:53:27 – 00:53:59

Everything is going on with me. Yeah. I mean, for for people that that don't know, I I got recently laid off from a database company called PlanetScale. It's maybe 2 weeks ago at this point, and they laid off according to their public blog post most of the sales and marketing teams, and I was on I was on marketing team. I was making lots of database videos and returned well, actually got laid off right before I returned from paternity leave.

Aaron

00:53:59 – 00:54:09

So then it's just like, well, what do I do now? So things that have changed. Yeah. I lost my job. I have 2 sets of twins at home.

Aaron

00:54:10 – 00:54:26

The newest ones are 4 months old, and the the oldest ones are 2 and a half years old. So we've got 4 under 3. So, yeah, there's there's a lot of change, and I'm trying to figure out, likewise, trying to figure out what's next. And I think I think I'm circling it.

Ben

00:54:27 – 00:54:38

It's exciting. So I think so there's there actually does exist a real a nice summary of kind of what has happened to you to date on your podcast, Mostly Technical, which folks could go listen to.

Aaron

00:54:38 – 00:54:38

Mhmm.

Ben

00:54:38 – 00:54:42

So that if if you want the the all the details, you can go get those.

Aaron

00:54:42 – 00:54:47

Mhmm. There's an episode called The Layoff on mostlytech.com. And that'll give you

Ben

00:54:47 – 00:54:59

Which sounds like a good that sounds like a drama I know. Title. You know, like, Sub Easy on on Netflix, that'll layoff. So if you want all the nitty gritty, I think that's probably good to go listen to that. And it's a good podcast, so you can listen to that.

Ben

00:54:59 – 00:55:07

No. Thanks. So maybe we talk maybe we focus on kind of your latest answer to Mhmm. So what what do you wanna do given all of these things that just happened?

Aaron

00:55:08 – 00:55:25

Yeah. So it's, it's kind of a new situation for me. Not only like, I've never been laid off before, so that, of course, that is new. But the thing that I am really considering new is publicly searching for a job. Like, publicly saying, I'm out here.

Aaron

00:55:25 – 00:55:34

Who wants to hire me? That has never happened. So, like, when I left the property tax firm, I DM ed you and was like, hey. I saw your hiring. Maybe I'll come there.

Aaron

00:55:35 – 00:55:42

I was like, great. Let's do it. When I left Tuple, it's because somebody reached out to me and was like, hey. Do you wanna come to play and scale? I was like, sure.

Aaron

00:55:42 – 00:55:49

Let's do it. And so now, like, everything has always been kinda like, wow. I have a job. Something else has kinda just, like, come out of nowhere. Right?

Aaron

00:55:50 – 00:56:03

Now I'm in this spot where it's like, okay. What does the world have to offer? I've never been free to explore that. And so, you know, the day I got laid off, I put out a tweet that was it just said, like, hey. I got laid off.

Aaron

00:56:03 – 00:56:41

I would love to hear, like, if you guys have any ideas. And while getting laid off, I don't recommend having a lot of people on your team, I super recommend. I think I had not, like I don't think I, speaking of cash, had updated my mental model about how many people, like, genuinely are on my team. Not just like, oh, there's a guy that's, like, on Twitter, and I enjoy his content. It was people that were, like, really wanting me specifically to succeed and do well.

Aaron

00:56:41 – 00:56:56

And the just kinda like the the the outpouring of people in DMs and publicly and emails just saying, hey, bud. I like whatever it takes, I got you. I was like, what is going on? It was wild.

Ben

00:56:56 – 00:57:05

Your announcement tweet, I mean, had, I think had 400 replies when I last looked at it. It's probably a lot more than that now. Yeah. Just been like, hey. I got laid off.

Ben

00:57:05 – 00:57:15

This kinda sucks. Mhmm. And just, like, hundreds of people Yep. Expressing support. And I see and and also sort of pretty explicitly a lot of job offers.

Aaron

00:57:15 – 00:57:15

Yes.

Ben

00:57:16 – 00:57:16

Rightfully.

Aaron

00:57:17 – 00:57:17

Very much so.

Ben

00:57:17 – 00:57:27

Yeah. I think I feel like yes. I think you probably it's I think it's hard to update your cash on this thing in particular. Like, your own standing Yes. Is sort of hard to, like, really appreciate.

Ben

00:57:28 – 00:57:56

And I think you have been, like, authentically very kind and helpful on the Internet for a long time in a in a in a pretty massive way. And I'm actually kind of I'm actually really glad you got that experience of sort of not cashing it in, but sort of experiencing, like, feeling more viscerally Mhmm. The positive things that you have done in the world coming back to you in response as, like, thanks for what you've done.

Aaron

00:57:56 – 00:58:19

Yeah. That is, that's a pretty unique and moving thing, I think, that happened. It feels it feels like one of those, like, this is somewhat morbid, but it almost feels like a eulogy that I'm getting to listen to. And everybody's, like, saying these really nice things, and I'm here to, like, receive that and feel that. It's like, man Yep.

Aaron

00:58:19 – 00:58:40

I just don't know that this happens very often. What, like, what a joy for me. So, yeah, I don't recommend getting laid off, but, honestly, like, I'm feeling pretty great. And that's just because there there's really there's so much opportunity, and there's so many people that are on my team that how could I, like, how could I not? You know?

Ben

00:58:40 – 00:58:45

Yeah. You're gonna be fine. Thanks. More more than fine, I think.

Aaron

00:58:45 – 00:59:10

So I took, you know, I took last week to just interview or talk to, everyone that I possibly could because, like I said, this is all new for me, and I wanna see what's out there. And even in these even in these calls, I'm just people are like, hey. I I know who you are. And I'm like, really? Like, this is this is new to me.

Aaron

00:59:10 – 00:59:16

And so they're like, I know who you are. Your work is great. Do you wanna come work here? I'm just like, this is wild.

Ben

00:59:16 – 00:59:19

And Right. No resume. No. No application.

Aaron

00:59:20 – 00:59:20

No. Nothing.

Ben

00:59:21 – 00:59:28

This is the beauty of putting enough work out in the world. Mhmm. Is that it becomes this is how this is what job seeking looks like.

Aaron

00:59:28 – 00:59:39

Yes. It becomes, like, self evident that you can do the job that this person is trying to hire you for. I don't have to try to convince them. They're saying, I've watched you do the job. Like, we don't need to talk about that.

Aaron

00:59:39 – 01:00:15

I've seen you do it. Let's talk about something else. And so I, you know, I talked to all of these companies and some really great companies with lots of kind people, who were very encouraging. But the overwhelming feeling that I kept having was, I wonder if this is my moment to to give it an honest go. Like, I've been, you know, I've been trying hard at stuff for a really long time, but in some sense, it's always been hedged because I've thought, you know, it's a side project or, like, I have a, you know, I have a real job.

Aaron

01:00:15 – 01:00:38

And so if this thing fails, like, that's alright. That's okay. And now I'm thinking, like, what's it look like to to, like, not have a hedge? What's it look like to go super hard and to call this thing a business instead of, like, a a a side project, which I feel like is hedging in the first place. And so, you know, it hasn't been announced.

Aaron

01:00:38 – 01:00:55

It's weird. We're we're in the past, but I'm speaking to the future, but when you listen, this will be in the past. Tomorrow. So tomorrow, on Friday, my friend Steve and I are announcing that we're we're going out together. And so Steve is the guy who helps me at PlanetScale with all the videos.

Aaron

01:00:55 – 01:01:15

He's like a proper he's a proper, like, filmmaker, videographer. He's done the whole thing. And so we're gonna go out together and we're gonna start we're gonna start a a video studio. And so the the the plan is we'll have, like, 2 prongs of of offerings. 1 will be in house stuff.

Aaron

01:01:15 – 01:01:50

So I'll teach some courses on, you know, Laravel and databases, and we'll build up this offering of, like, the best educational material on databases that exists in the world, and we'll just sell that straight up. And then the other prong is going to be consulting, and we'll say, listen. You're spending 1,000,000 of dollars on salaries for your dev ed, dev rel, dev advocacy team, and they're making videos that get 40 views on YouTube. Like, hire us. We can come in, and we can make those people 10 x as effective for very little cost considering.

Aaron

01:01:52 – 01:02:10

And then for a select few companies that wanna pay us, we'll do the whole deal. I'll be the on camera talent. I'll do the course. Steve will do the production and the editing and the graphics and all that, and that's, like, the contact us for pricing kinda deal. Like, oh, you want us to you want me to be the face of your company for this course?

Aaron

01:02:10 – 01:02:12

I would love to have a conversation about that.

Ben

01:02:13 – 01:02:18

Yes. I hope you name a number for that that makes you laugh out loud slightly.

Aaron

01:02:19 – 01:02:31

The the the number, I won't say it here, but the number that we've named so far has made me just laugh hysterically. And Steve was like, oh, no. I think we could go higher. So I'm like, thank you, Steve. I I need you in my life.

Ben

01:02:31 – 01:02:36

Yeah. Yes. I I would like to see this number before you send it to anybody just in case there's more room.

Aaron

01:02:36 – 01:02:38

Yes. For sure.

Ben

01:02:39 – 01:02:53

This is very exciting. I we chatted about this Mhmm. A bit, and I was encouraging you to, like, not go take a job and to sort of do something along these lines. And so you're I'm I'm very pleased to see you going this direction.

Aaron

01:02:53 – 01:03:13

Thanks. I'm I'm very excited, and I think the the big thing that I think is, like, once we get in the game, we can we can basically figure out anything. Like, this is the this idea currently is at its worst state possible. Yeah. And it will get better once we talk to people, and they're like, actually, we need this thing.

Aaron

01:03:13 – 01:03:24

Like, great. We can actually do that thing. Let's change our offering. So the thing that I want to avoid is writing my personal opportunity over the top. Right?

Aaron

01:03:24 – 01:03:34

I don't wanna I don't wanna miss the window. I don't wanna ride the hype over the top. I want to say now is the moment. I gotta get in the game, and we'll we'll just we'll freaking figure it out as we go.

Ben

01:03:34 – 01:03:41

Yep. Yeah. I like that a lot. And the I know there's a lot of power in, like, doing the thing for real full time. You know?

Ben

01:03:41 – 01:03:58

No backup exactly. Just like and you've got the backup. You know you you know you have a job waiting for you if you decide that that's the right path. So, like, all the more reason to, like, do something with a better possible return that's hopefully gonna be more fulfilling and fascinating and challenging and yeah. I'm I'm excited.

Ben

01:03:58 – 01:04:05

I do still I I just do really wanna see the Aaron Francis product Mhmm. That you sell to the the Aaron Francis audience.

Aaron

01:04:05 – 01:04:06

I know.

Ben

01:04:06 – 01:04:21

I I do still think there's an interesting business in there somewhere that maybe isn't is is something other than a course. Mhmm. But we we couldn't figure it out on our on our first phone call. So I I don't so I don't have the answer to that, but I think someday, that's probably I see that in your future most likely.

Aaron

01:04:21 – 01:04:35

Yeah. I think so too. And and something that has been continually, told to me by you and Daniel Zarrick and Jordan Gall, all these people is like, dude, think bigger. Like, push push push. Think bigger.

Aaron

01:04:35 – 01:05:00

Think bigger. And that has been incredibly helpful to me because, you know, I don't know if it's, just how I'm wired or, you know, religious background, religious foreground, I'm still religious, but just, like, thinking lowly of myself almost and thinking like, okay. I I shouldn't I shouldn't strive for, greatness. And it's like, no, dude. You've got the thing.

Aaron

01:05:00 – 01:05:12

Push harder. I'm like, oh, that's helpful. Yes. So that's been that's been a really wonderful outcome of talking to, you know, these these friends that I can talk to, and they can say, Aaron, you gotta dream bigger, man.

Ben

01:05:12 – 01:05:19

That is, I think, one of the hardest caches to clear. Yes. It's the how much should I expect from life?

Aaron

01:05:19 – 01:05:19

Exactly.

Ben

01:05:20 – 01:05:22

How much am I truly capable of?

Aaron

01:05:22 – 01:05:25

Yep. Turns out the answer is more. More.

Ben

01:05:26 – 01:05:38

I think the answer is more. Yeah. And I'm glad I can help be one of the one of the voices nudging you in that direction. Because from the outside, the beauty of the or the thing outside the cache is it's very easy to see. It's not a question.

Ben

01:05:38 – 01:05:41

Like, oh, could Aaron do know it more? I don't know. No. He probably should just get a job. No.

Ben

01:05:41 – 01:05:49

That is Yeah. No. Not a thing. There's not that many people that have the juice, and you got the juice.

Aaron

01:05:49 – 01:05:58

No. Thanks. Yeah. I I think I'm starting to realize that, frankly. I think I'm starting to, like Good.

Aaron

01:05:58 – 01:06:15

Believe that. I've seen individual pieces of work, that I've done do very well, but I think I'm starting to believe, like, there's something that is different or, like, something that I am good at that that is making this happen. And so I'm trying to, like, lean into that.

Ben

01:06:16 – 01:06:24

Yes. Yeah. It's you are the function producing these things, and the function is good. It's not just like the you got lucky a couple times. Yep.

Ben

01:06:25 – 01:06:30

Yeah. It's no, it's it's the it's the meta. It's the higher has the higher order function Yeah. That's doing this.

Aaron

01:06:31 – 01:06:41

Yeah. Thanks. So it'll be, you know, optimizing for excitement and fun. I'm right there with you. This is the most this is the most exciting possibility, and this is the most entertaining.

Aaron

01:06:42 – 01:06:48

Like, if if we're just doing it for the lows, this is definitely the most entertaining option possible, and that's exciting.

Ben

01:06:49 – 01:06:56

That's awesome. I'm so glad to hear that. Because you know you can go optimize for safety, reliability For sure. Stable paycheck. You know you can do that.

Ben

01:06:56 – 01:06:57

Mhmm.

Aaron

01:06:57 – 01:06:57

And

Ben

01:06:57 – 01:07:00

so given that you have that fallback, your family will be okay.

Aaron

01:07:00 – 01:07:01

Mhmm.

Ben

01:07:01 – 01:07:10

Why not try to optimize for the excitement and and the growth? Yes. Like, this will be harder too. Right? This will be more challenging.

Ben

01:07:10 – 01:07:15

It'll probably be more variance, but I do think it makes life so much richer.

Aaron

01:07:15 – 01:07:24

Yeah. Yeah. I could have easily gone and phoned it in somewhere and not have been happy at in 3 months or 6 months.

Ben

01:07:24 – 01:07:26

Exactly. Yeah. Totally. And it

Aaron

01:07:26 – 01:07:28

it's just the story. Man, the story is too good. I'm

Ben

01:07:29 – 01:07:31

It's too good. Yeah. I'm the I'm the most fault here.

Aaron

01:07:31 – 01:07:47

I'm the aggrieved party, and so I I did an amazing job at planet scale, and then my separation was 100% not my fault. And so there's no, like, there's no, like, oh, I can't believe Aaron left PlanetScale high and dry. No. I didn't. That's not I didn't do that.

Aaron

01:07:47 – 01:07:52

And so now it's like, okay. Wow. He's laid off. What's gonna happen next? It's like, this is a great story.

Aaron

01:07:52 – 01:07:54

We gotta we gotta write it. So

Ben

01:07:54 – 01:07:57

Yeah. Right? Exactly. Don't waste a great setup.

Aaron

01:07:57 – 01:08:08

No. What a what a mistake that would be to be like, oh, I had this moment, and then I went and worked at a database company that you haven't heard of. It's like, oh, again? Yeah. You're doing that again?

Ben

01:08:08 – 01:08:10

Yeah. I guess. I mean, you do have 4 kids.

Aaron

01:08:10 – 01:08:11

I suppose. Yeah. Seriously.

Ben

01:08:12 – 01:08:15

Yeah. I mean, you're gonna die someday and you're wasting your life there. But whatever, it's fine.

Aaron

01:08:15 – 01:08:16

It's cool.

Ben

01:08:16 – 01:08:17

Some people are cool with that.

Aaron

01:08:17 – 01:08:22

But at least you can go on your one vacation a year. Like, no. I'm doing it. I'm going big.

Ben

01:08:22 – 01:08:23

So Do the thing.

Aaron

01:08:23 – 01:08:28

That's that's where I'm at. And I feel very excited about it. Terrified, of course, but but very excited.

Ben

01:08:28 – 01:08:35

That means that's right, basically. That's my this is my new philosophy. It's like, yeah, your your gut will tell you when you are doing the right things or the wrong things.

Aaron

01:08:35 – 01:08:52

Man, and there was something something it was probably just a tweet or I don't know what it was, but there was something I read once that was, like, if you wanted, like, if you wanna do something really big but you're scared, do it scared. Like, don't don't let it stop you. Do it. Mhmm. Do it scared.

Aaron

01:08:52 – 01:08:57

That's fine. And that's kinda how I feel. I'm like, yeah. This is awesome. I'm terrified, but this is awesome.

Ben

01:08:58 – 01:09:03

Feel the fear and do it anyway. Yep. Totally fine. In fact, probably a very positive sign.

Aaron

01:09:03 – 01:09:04

Yeah. I think so.

Ben

01:09:04 – 01:09:07

If there's no fear, you're go go bigger.

Aaron

01:09:07 – 01:09:12

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And there would be, like, god. There's just no fear in taking a job.

Aaron

01:09:12 – 01:09:34

I'm just like, whatever. I don't care. So I feel like this is the right decision. It'll be interesting to see in the next month or 2 or 3 what the discrete offerings shake out to be, because we've gotten a ton of interest even in these interview rounds, Steve and I both, of companies that are like, hey. If you go solo, we wanna be your first client.

Ben

01:09:34 – 01:09:34

And I'm

Aaron

01:09:34 – 01:09:40

like, really? Like, 4, 5 4, 5 companies have said that. And so Wow.

Ben

01:09:40 – 01:09:42

Sounds like they need to bid against each other.

Aaron

01:09:42 – 01:09:55

Yeah. It sounds like it. So I'm I'm excited to see what that, like, what that forms up into and what our, you know, h one ends up saying. But we'll, you know, we'll dance around it for a little while.

Ben

01:09:56 – 01:09:59

Right. Feels very, like, feels very clear there's opportunity here.

Aaron

01:09:59 – 01:10:00

Mhmm.

Ben

01:10:00 – 01:10:06

What the exact until, like, as you explore this and figure out what the exact offerings are, Yeah. That that's gonna be a good process, I think.

Aaron

01:10:06 – 01:10:19

Yeah. Our current our current h one is going to be, we make videos that developers want to watch. And that's, like, that's good enough, but it's also vague enough. That's, like, do we actually make them? Do you make them and we help?

Aaron

01:10:19 – 01:10:23

But, like, regardless, developers wanna watch these videos.

Ben

01:10:23 – 01:10:26

Hell, yeah. Yep. That sounds good, man.

Aaron

01:10:26 – 01:10:30

Yeah. Thanks. Stay tuned. Stay tuned for more. We'll see.

Ben

01:10:31 – 01:10:38

Yeah. Stay tuned for both of us. It's fun that we're both in this at this, like, sort of, yeah, turning point at the same time. Uh-huh. It's nice.

Ben

01:10:38 – 01:10:40

You were the perfect person to bring on to talk about it.

Aaron

01:10:40 – 01:10:47

Well, I'm I'm glad I'm glad you reached out. It's fun to it's fun to take over your role and be the interviewer there for a while.

Ben

01:10:48 – 01:10:49

Yeah. You're good at it. You should do this

Aaron

01:10:49 – 01:10:51

professionally. Thanks.

Ben

01:10:53 – 01:10:56

Alright, man. It's lovely to talk to you as always.

Aaron

01:10:56 – 01:10:58

Yeah. Thanks for having me on.

Ben

01:10:58 – 01:11:11

Yeah. Thanks for asking good questions and being a good listener and and a sounding board and also being somebody I can text that gives great advice and is just warm and helpful and kind, and you deserve this outpouring of love that you got.

Aaron

01:11:11 – 01:11:16

No. Thank you. I I am lucky to count you as a friend, so this is a joy. I appreciate it.

Ben

01:11:16 – 01:11:20

Thanks, man. Alright. Bye bye. Bye.

Ben steps away from Tuple

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