Aaron Francis

I joined James McKinven on his podcast to talk about the many projects I have going on and focusing my energy on doing something he loves.

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Transcript

Aaron

00:00:01 – 00:00:15

This has been extremely ruthlessly strategic and in and, like, on purpose. I would love to say that, like, oh, I'm just a natural and I fell backwards into, you know, growing an audience. But like that's just that's just not true.

James

00:00:16 – 00:00:52

Hello and welcome back to Indie Bytes, the podcast where I bring you stories of fellow indie hackers in 15 minutes or less. In this episode, I'm joined by Aaron Francis who is currently an educator at PlanetScale, but you would have seen him all around the internet doing courses, YouTube videos, podcasts and more. Notably, Aaron was a founding member of the Hammerstone team but he's recently left that to focus his energy on doing something he loves. Most recently, Aaron has launched screencasting.com, a course teaching you how to make better screencasts. I wanna take a quick moment to thank my long term Indiebyte sponsor, Email Octopus, and tell you a little bit about them.

James

00:00:53 – 00:01:20

Email Octopus are an indie email marketing platform built to support other small growing businesses like yours. They're focused on affordability and ease of use, which is perfect when you are starting out as a bootstrapper. EmailOctopus contains all of the features you need to reach and grow your audience, and you can start today without paying a penny on their free plan where you can contact up to 25 100 subscribers. To try Email Octopus, head to emailoctopus.com or hit the link in the show notes. Let's get into this episode with Aaron Francis.

James

00:01:21 – 00:01:22

Aaron, welcome to the pod. How are you doing?

Aaron

00:01:22 – 00:01:25

I'm doing great. What an intro. Thanks for having me.

James

00:01:26 – 00:01:39

Great to have you. I've seen you all around the Internet doing all different things. But I've just learned that you weren't a software developer before this. Where did you get your start out in life, and how did you then switch over to this online world?

Aaron

00:01:39 – 00:01:50

Yeah. I came through a little bit of a circuitous path. I was a CPA. I was an accountant for the 1st year of my career. So I got my master's in accounting and spent 1 year doing it.

Aaron

00:01:50 – 00:02:03

I was like, this is terrible. I'm not I don't want I don't wanna do this. And I'm one of those, one of those guys that have been, like, I was a, you know, programming as a kid, and then went to college and was like, ah, I'm not gonna be a programmer. I'm gonna be an accountant. And then I was like, no.

Aaron

00:02:03 – 00:02:10

I'm gonna be a programmer. So I left the accounting firm and got back into software development and I have been there ever since.

James

00:02:10 – 00:02:12

How did you teach yourself software engineering?

Aaron

00:02:12 – 00:02:35

Honestly, by reading books. There used to be a site called HTML Goodies, and that's where I first learned HTML. But then the first programming book I ever bought was asp.net unleashed, and it was like way back in the day, and that was right before I moved on to PHP. And I just read books, and that has that has served me up until this day because I still don't have a CS degree.

James

00:02:35 – 00:02:48

Do you think that's still a viable way to learn something through books? Because we've got so much of the Internet available to learn stuff free, paid for. Of course, we're doing a lot of this stuff now. Do you reckon you still do it through books?

Aaron

00:02:48 – 00:03:00

Yeah. I mean, coming from a guy who has a video course, it sounds weird to say that learning through books. But yeah. Absolutely. I think so I think there's a a foundation that a book can lay that you can then build on top of.

Aaron

00:03:01 – 00:03:25

Because a book has been thoroughly researched, has been technically edited, and has been approved by somebody who put their name on the line. Like, O'Reilly says, yes. This book is correct. And so reading a book can, like, lay the foundation that then blog posts and tweets and video courses, everything can build on top of, but there's no substitute for, like, laying down a good foundation if you don't have one, which, you know, I I haven't.

James

00:03:25 – 00:03:44

Definitely. I I wanna talk about what I feel like you have done really well over the years, which is audience building. And I think this is something that I think a lot of indie hackers struggle with. They know they sort of want to do. They can sort of see the benefit of it, but struggle to actually put it into practice.

James

00:03:44 – 00:03:57

And I feel like everywhere you've been, you've managed to sort of embed yourself in the community, publishing your work. Is this something you've intentionally done? And what are some tips for audience building in whatever niche you're in?

Aaron

00:03:58 – 00:04:25

Yeah. This has been extremely ruthlessly strategic and in and, like, on purpose. I would love to say that, like, oh, I'm just a natural, and I fell backwards into, you know, growing an audience. But, like, that's just that's just not true. One of my big turning points was when I realized that, like, the reason I wasn't putting myself out there and not sharing anything that I was working on was because I was afraid of, like, people laughing at me or, like, making fun of me.

Aaron

00:04:25 – 00:04:56

And I I held that up against, like, what am I gonna look back on when I'm 75? Am I gonna look back and say, like, I'm so glad, young Aaron, that you protected your ego? Or am I gonna look back and say, like, man, I just wish you had put yourself out there a little bit more. And, like, if strangers laughed at you, what does it matter? And that was a big turning point for me to realize, like, I'm not super gonna care in the future if I was embarrassed for a little bit.

Aaron

00:04:56 – 00:05:43

I am gonna care if I feel like you kinda squandered what could have been a wonderful opportunity or a great life. And so from that point on it was like, alright, well, I'm not held back by fear, and now I gotta figure out what am I gonna do. And I I have a point of view on, like, being online publicly, and my point of view on that is you should be 100%, like, authentic and share as much as you can about what you're actually working on and what you actually are thinking. If you're working on stuff, if you're building projects, if you're writing code, if you're designing, if you're creating videos, just talk about what you're doing. People want to know like, people wanna be brought along in that story, and people want to see you as a real person.

Aaron

00:05:43 – 00:05:51

And if you put yourself on a stage and start preaching at people, they're gonna be like, oh, this guy's trying to build an audience. And it just doesn't work.

James

00:05:51 – 00:06:12

Yeah. Now you've sort of done all of the content that you could do. You've done podcast, guesting on podcast, talks, writing, Twitter, YouTube videos, which a ton of work. Is there any one channel that you feel has a higher payoff for the amount of work that goes into it?

Aaron

00:06:13 – 00:06:33

Yeah. I think there are different types of payoff. I think hosting a podcast is a way to deepen a connection with an audience. I don't think hosting a podcast is like a long running podcast where it's just you and a friend. Like, don't think that's a way to grow an audience very quickly.

Aaron

00:06:33 – 00:07:00

You can grow an audience. Doing a show like this is a way to grow an audience. So, like, you bringing on guests every week, that's a way to grow an audience. But hosting 1 where you're just like talking about what's going on in your life, that's a way to deepen Doing YouTube videos, if you can crack the code, gives you distribution unlike anything I have ever seen before. You can have a YouTube video and the algorithm can decide 60 days later, alright, it's time to shine.

Aaron

00:07:00 – 00:07:39

And it just, like, it goes insane. And so I think the payoff in terms of like audience growth on a YouTube platform is really high. And then I think the, like, the cost of tweeting is so so low that the returns are almost infinite no matter what the payoff is. And so I think, like, Twitter to me is a game that is free to play and the outcome is almost a 100% random, and the upside is potentially huge. And so, like, if you imagine it, you could walk into a casino and they're

James

00:07:43 – 00:07:43

like, it's free to play, the outcome is random, and you may win

Aaron

00:07:43 – 00:08:07

a $1,000,000. What's your strategy? Just play more. Just play as much as you can. And so that's kind of how I think about Twitter is I am gonna be a 100% honest, sincere, and transparent on Twitter and I am just gonna tweet everything I'm working on, everything I think is interesting, everything that I think will be valuable and have no idea what's gonna happen but you may win a $1,000,000.

James

00:08:07 – 00:08:29

I what a wonderful way to explain all the different channels that you could do. Now you do sort of everything across the board, which is a lot of time and effort, Aaron. How do you make time for all of it working full time, doing side projects, and also being a dad to twins with 2 more on

Aaron

00:08:29 – 00:08:41

the way? Yeah. Twins with twins on the way. I feel lucky because there are a lot of things that I don't do, and then there are a lot of things I don't care about. For example, what do most Americans do on Sunday afternoon?

Aaron

00:08:42 – 00:08:55

They watch NFL football. I do not care. Like, I do not watch sports. I don't play video games. Like I have decided that certain things in my life are worth sacrificing, like watching a lot of TV.

Aaron

00:08:55 – 00:09:27

I do like watching TV, actually, but I just don't do a lot of it right now because I'm trying to make my dreams come true. And so instead of, like, watching Suits or whatever show it is, I'm in here recording videos or recording podcasts or writing articles. There are things I'm not sacrificing which is like time with my kids and my wife. But that is kinda how I have decided to live my life at this point in time is I am on a mission to make something happen, and so there are other things that fall by the wayside.

James

00:09:27 – 00:09:48

And, like, you've always had a job throughout doing your side projects, which some of which have been quite successful. For you, is that something that you feel gives you stability and is something you sort of always wanna do? Is there a point in which you wanna build a side project, something where you don't have to work that job anymore?

Aaron

00:09:48 – 00:10:09

Yeah. I mean, I think my dream is to to be independent at some point. I think there are risks that I could take to get there right now that I'm just not willing I'm not willing to put my family through. And so that's again where it comes down like, what am I willing to sacrifice? As far as my comfort goes, I'm willing to sacrifice a whole, whole lot.

Aaron

00:10:10 – 00:10:23

As far as my family's comfort, I'm willing to sacrifice very, very little. And so I'm stuck at this point where it's like I can give up whatever I can give up, but that does not include a full time job with health care.

James

00:10:23 – 00:10:46

Before we get into the current, I just wanna talk about Hammerstone and you recently deciding to end that partnership, which I think is quite a brave, big thing to do as it was such a big part of your life. Talk to me about why after the time and effort you went into growing that, you decided to walk away.

Aaron

00:10:46 – 00:11:04

Yeah. So Hammerstone was a project that I was working on with my partner, Colleen, for many, many years. And recently, I have decided that it is no longer the right thing for me to be working on. And Colleen and I are still super close friends and on great terms. So we got to the point so it's a soft it's a SaaS company.

Aaron

00:11:04 – 00:11:53

And we had been working on it for a few years, and we had gone through this stage of, like, oh, we're primarily a consulting company instead of just pure SaaS. And then we dropped the consultancy and we're like, okay, now we're just pure SaaS, and then we pivoted from our product to a new product. And it just got to the point where I started to think like, I'm not sure that this is right for my stage in life with the, you know, current twins and twins on the way. And I've spent a lot of time and energy on this particular idea, and I feel like I've reached the end of the line on my energy for this idea. And so before we, you know, launch and get it in the hands of customers who put it in their application and then are relying on us, we had a real, like, come to Jesus moment of, hey, are we gonna keep doing this?

Aaron

00:11:53 – 00:12:16

And my answer was, I don't think this is right for the next stage of my life. And so, yeah, we just decided I'm I'm not gonna be working on that anymore, which is which is really hard, but also feels very freeing. Feels like the further I got from that decision, the better I felt, which is always an indication to me that, like, that was the right decision. Yeah. It was just really hard to make.

James

00:12:16 – 00:12:45

Well, give you for, like, coming at it so pragmatically. And I was saying just before we start recording, I like the way you approach things, your projects, your life, your jobs, that if something isn't quite working out, you'll figure out a way to move on from it or try something different, and I really respect that. So let's move on to the present. You just launched a new course, screencasting.com. First of all, great domain that immediately stood out to me.

James

00:12:45 – 00:12:46

Where did you get that domain?

Aaron

00:12:46 – 00:13:06

That was surprisingly available as, like, a GoDaddy instant auction purchase. And so I was looking around. I was like, should I do, like, better developer screencasts or, like, screencasts for developers? And I saw screencasting.com, and it was just available for purchase. It was not cheap.

Aaron

00:13:06 – 00:13:15

It was, you know, $5,000. Oh, yeah. But I thought, okay, this gives me, like, the gravitas and the official feeling, and so I just I just bought it.

James

00:13:15 – 00:13:27

I love that. So talk to me a little bit about what's involved in this course and Mhmm. Why you felt compelled to make content about or course about screencasting and creating these lovely videos.

Aaron

00:13:28 – 00:13:54

So I did my first screencasting course. I was actually taking the accounting stuff that I tutored and I put it all in video form and it's still to this day, you know, tutoring sophomores at Texas A&M. And then I did like a Laravel course, and then I did this big MySQL course for PlanetScale. And after I did that course, I got a lot of people asking me on Twitter, like, hey, how did you do that? Like, how did you do these recordings?

Aaron

00:13:54 – 00:14:17

These are really high quality. How did you do this part? How do you think about that? And this is the, like, maybe one of the first times I've noticed the market in air quotes speaking and being like, I want you to teach me how to do this and I will pay you for it. And so at that point I thought, wait, I have a skill that people are literally asking me to, like, create content about and they will pay me.

Aaron

00:14:17 – 00:14:33

It's something that I feel really confident in and it's a medium that I know and love, And it just kinda evolved out of that. So it was one of those weird moments where I thought people are telling me what they would pay me for. I should do it. And it like it was true. It worked.

James

00:14:33 – 00:14:34

And how's the launch gone?

Aaron

00:14:34 – 00:14:46

It's gone really well. Yeah. So I did the launch maybe 2 weeks ago and I haven't shared public numbers anywhere. But it's it's gone it's gone very well. I'm I'm very happy with it.

Aaron

00:14:46 – 00:15:12

It met my expectations for sure. And the good thing about a course like this is it's evergreen. Like it's it's not gonna go away. And so I'm continuing to pour time and energy into marketing it and adding more videos and there's a whole section, of tear downs where people send me their screencasts and I review them and like mark them up on screen and that stuff's kinda fun. And so I'm continuing to do more of those.

Aaron

00:15:12 – 00:15:25

And so my hope is that it just kind of levels out to a reasonable amount of income every month. And I can continue to push the marketing boulder a little bit, but it will be a long term asset for me.

James

00:15:26 – 00:15:38

Well, Aaron, you've been a fantastic guest. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and wisdom on content, audience building, and just general life as an indie founder.

Aaron

00:15:38 – 00:16:01

I end every episode on 3 recommendations, a book, a podcast, and indie hacker. So the book I would recommend is any technical book in your field of expertise. Just pick up any pick up any textbook like thing in your field of expertise and you will immediately become the smartest person in the room. And you don't even have to tell them you read the book. You can just tell them you got smart overnight.

Aaron

00:16:02 – 00:16:36

The podcast that I would recommend is No Plans to Merge. It is supposedly a Laravel podcast, but really it's a life philosophy and comedy podcast with a little bit of Laravel mixed in, so that one's no plans to merge. And the indie hacker that I would recommend following is Jordan O'Connor. He's, I think, jdnoc or James will put it in the show notes. But Jordan O'Connor is the creator of Closetools, and he has just got a great indie hacker story and great, great, great Twitter content.

James

00:16:36 – 00:16:39

Aaron, fantastic recommendations. Appreciate you coming on the pod.

Aaron

00:16:39 – 00:16:40

Thanks for having me.

James

00:16:40 – 00:16:50

Thank you for listening to this episode of Indie Bytes. To show you support for the show, I'd appreciate you checking out our sponsor, Email Octopus. The links are in the show notes as always. See you in the next episode.

Growing an audience, making difficult decisions, launching screencasting.com

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