Aaron Francis

Hammerstone adds a new partner.

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Transcript

Aaron

00:00:00 – 00:00:09

Alright. We are recording and we have 3 people here with us today. So the 3rd person, you wanna introduce yourself?

Colleen

00:00:09 – 00:00:20

Hello, everyone. My name is Colleen, and I have been working for Sean and Aaron for about 6 months now. And this is my debut appearance on the Hammerstone podcast.

Aaron

00:00:21 – 00:00:34

Welcome to the show. Thanks. So Colleen has been working, she said for us, but now Colleen is working with us. Colleen is a part of the Hammerstone team. Now she's the 3rd partner.

Colleen

00:00:35 – 00:00:40

Yes. I am super pumped, super excited to join the team.

Aaron

00:00:41 – 00:01:07

Yeah. So I guess we've been talking about this client for, like, a year or more, and we've mentioned Colleen several times. I don't think it's been a secret. And she's the one that's been doing she's the one that's been doing the rails side of the refine product. And so Sean and Colleen have been working on this client for a long time, and the client has kind of been like, hey.

Aaron

00:01:07 – 00:01:24

What if we just keep doing this for a long, long time? And we're like, great. We that sounds good to us. And so Colleen is gonna continue working, with this client for they just they just love Colleen. They just can't get they can't get enough of you.

Aaron

00:01:25 – 00:01:47

So, yeah, she's coming on as a partner in Hammerstone, and she's gonna own the rails side of things. And I own the Laravel side of things, and Sean owns basically everything else. So kind of a kind of a huge change in a in a whirlwind the past couple of weeks, but welcome.

Colleen

00:01:47 – 00:01:48

Thanks.

Sean

00:01:50 – 00:01:58

Yeah. This is super cool. So speaking of owning all the other things, actually, can you guys hear me? The sound just cut out weirdly for a second. We're good?

Sean

00:01:58 – 00:01:58

Yep.

Aaron

00:01:58 – 00:02:00

You're okay. Yep. Mhmm.

Sean

00:02:00 – 00:02:37

Yeah. So, we since there's 3 of us now, Aaron and I have been, as I put it on the call with the lawyer yesterday, just YOLOing it for the last year with our sort of, like, operating agreement. So we gotta hammer that out, you know, and actually do that properly given there's 3 of us and that's an extra level of complication. So the the the thing that we talked about with the lawyer, which I wanted to bring up with you guys, was so first of all, I brought on my lawyer, Dalia, who's awesome and the best lawyer that I know. And I was like, oh, yeah.

Sean

00:02:37 – 00:03:04

I definitely want Dahlia to represent Hammerstone. Then Dahlia immediately brought up that it's a conflict of interest of her because she's representing me on planning for aliens. And I was like, oh, well, I'll just find another lawyer for planning for aliens. And that's when I've realized, like, last night, I was like, ah, do I wanna do that? Like, it's, I want Dahlia to represent Hammerstone, but I also, like, kinda still want to have Dahlia around for other shit for me.

Sean

00:03:04 – 00:03:21

Yeah. Totally. So I think that she had mentioned this as a possibility where, like, she could represent us both. And then if there's a conflict of interest, step aside and would go to me by default, I think is what she said. And then Hamerson would have to find another lawyer.

Sean

00:03:22 – 00:03:24

How does that sound to you guys?

Colleen

00:03:25 – 00:03:39

Yeah. So what I took from that conversation was exactly that. Like, she can represent you. She can represent Hammerstone. But if the 3 of us, as Hammerstone, have a problem, she would then have to step back.

Colleen

00:03:39 – 00:03:45

And then all of us would like if we're at the point where we all need our own attorneys, like, something has gone terribly

Sean

00:03:45 – 00:03:45

wrong. Yeah.

Colleen

00:03:45 – 00:03:48

Right? Like, we're probably just gonna wanna anyway.

Sean

00:03:49 – 00:03:52

Yeah. But when we're talking about attorneys, that's all we're talking about is these horrible situations.

Colleen

00:03:52 – 00:03:53

Like, that

Aaron

00:03:53 – 00:03:54

is true.

Sean

00:03:54 – 00:04:08

So that is what we're talking about right now is a horrible situation that, you know, potentially could happen in the future. Yeah. I totally I'm not putting anything, you know, out of the realm of possibility. That's it.

Colleen

00:04:08 – 00:04:28

Like, I'm fine with that. I don't know. She had said something, about how someone has to wait, like, like, waive the conflict of interest. So you can ask her what that means. But, I mean, I have no issues with this because I just I know no one ever sees themselves in these situations, but I just cannot imagine a situation where that would happen.

Colleen

00:04:28 – 00:04:35

And if it did, then, I mean, you're so far gone by that point that, you know, I I'm okay with it.

Aaron

00:04:36 – 00:04:49

Yeah. I think I think I understand the same thing. So she'll represent Planning for Aliens, which is your holding corporation, Sean. She'll represent planning for aliens. She'll represent Hammerstone.

Aaron

00:04:49 – 00:05:01

And should Sean, Colleen, and Aaron ever need representation against each other, not as Hammerstone, against each other as individuals, then that's when we have to say conflict of interest

Colleen

00:05:08 – 00:05:10

fine. Yeah. I'm totally fine.

Sean

00:05:10 – 00:05:14

No. Make sure she'll give us whatever papers to sign about that and then alright. Cool.

Colleen

00:05:14 – 00:05:31

Sure. Yeah. What I didn't understand law with a vesting schedule for me, and that was kind of whoosh. So

Sean

00:05:31 – 00:05:40

So you gotta talk to our accountant. Like so this is what we're talking about. We have our accountant. You could, you could have your own or you could just use Aaron. I'm, like, pushing.

Sean

00:05:40 – 00:05:50

We just use the one accountant for all the stuff. I mean, it's not he's an accountant, so I don't know if there's, like, there's not, like, a conflict of interest. Right? He's just gonna tell you, like, what's the optimal thing to do. Right.

Sean

00:05:50 – 00:05:51

There's just

Colleen

00:05:51 – 00:05:53

this is how you should structure it. Yeah.

Sean

00:05:53 – 00:06:12

Yeah. And and my understanding, I I never thought about this before, I guess, because it's gonna be, like, a taxable event that you could decide take the taxes now or take the taxes later. And I think that'll probably all depend on your whole personal, you know, finance situation plus, like, what you think is gonna happen with Hammerstone, etcetera. So

Colleen

00:06:13 – 00:06:18

Right. So you guys have a Hammerstone accountant who is also Aaron's personal accountant?

Sean

00:06:19 – 00:06:21

It's my it's my personal accountant.

Aaron

00:06:21 – 00:06:22

But his name is Aaron.

Sean

00:06:22 – 00:06:23

Is Aaron.

Colleen

00:06:23 – 00:06:26

Oh, that oh, hence that's confusing.

Sean

00:06:26 – 00:06:27

Yeah. Yeah.

Colleen

00:06:30 – 00:06:37

Okay. So, Sean, you have an accountant named Aaron who has been doing hammerstone taxes and your personal taxes.

Sean

00:06:37 – 00:06:38

And planning for aliens. Correct.

Colleen

00:06:38 – 00:06:39

And He

Sean

00:06:39 – 00:06:44

hasn't done hammerstone he hasn't done hammerstone taxes yet. We just had no money last year, so we just

Colleen

00:06:44 – 00:06:44

Right. Did it

Sean

00:06:44 – 00:06:45

ourselves.

Colleen

00:06:45 – 00:06:52

And then, Aaron, not you, Aaron, not accountant Aaron, you then have your own accountant for your own stuff for your LLC.

Aaron

00:06:53 – 00:07:02

I, Aaron, am an accountant for a CPA. Yeah. So it makes it worse. I'm a CPA. However, I'm not our CPA, and I am not my own CPA.

Aaron

00:07:02 – 00:07:16

I have my own personal accountant for Jennifer's and my taxes. And I have a, I have an LLC called bits and things. And so she does, she does bits and things. She does our personal stuff. She does.

Aaron

00:07:16 – 00:07:21

And I've recently switched because my old one was terrible. So, yes, I have my own personal one as well.

Colleen

00:07:21 – 00:07:31

Okay. Because I have an accountant, but I'm not totally crazy about him. So I don't know. If it's easier to just switch, like, we're I'm cool with that. We can talk about that more.

Colleen

00:07:31 – 00:07:34

But, yeah. Okay. I think I follow him.

Sean

00:07:34 – 00:08:18

So the like, the advantage for me of having erinjdomash do my ataol.com do my do my personal and, LLC or s I have an escore, actually. He's the one that set that all up is that he knows, like, how to optimize both, and they both matter, and they both come into play. And, otherwise, there's gonna be a communication point between the 2 if you have 2 separate accountants or if I'm, like, DIY ing my personal account, my personal taxes. So just for him to optimize things and be more, you know, fluid in that, it was easier to just have him do it. And then, like, as far as my recommendation of of Aaron, like, I I feel like I have a lot less problems with Aaron than anybody else that I've ever talked to about their accountant.

Sean

00:08:18 – 00:08:34

And, like, I have he saved me automatically a lot of money the 1st year that I hired him, and, I have not been audited. I was audited prior to the prior to hiring him, Haven't been audited since. So, anyway, that's that's my pitch there.

Colleen

00:08:35 – 00:08:36

Yeah. Not to get really

Aaron

00:08:36 – 00:08:36

a pitch.

Sean

00:08:36 – 00:08:37

It's really up to you.

Colleen

00:08:38 – 00:08:55

Yeah. But just not to get, like, too businessy. So, like, my first accountant had all these, like, cool I I don't know if they're cool ideas, but he had a lot of ideas about how I should structure my LLC for, like, tax benefits. And then his wife died and he retired, and it was kinda dramatic. And then my new accountant who I've had for 2 years now, he's just not into that stuff.

Colleen

00:08:55 – 00:09:00

Like, he doesn't provide recommendations. He, like, I think he just puts everything in TurboTax and tells me what I owe

Aaron

00:09:00 – 00:09:04

the company. That's why I left my old accountant. Yeah. Exactly. He's a

Colleen

00:09:04 – 00:09:13

nice guy, but I'm like, I can literally do that myself. Like, you aren't Yes. You aren't advising me on, like, structure or anything. So I'm open to to trying someone new.

Sean

00:09:14 – 00:09:32

Yeah. So with Aaron, I do have to, like I gotta push a little. Like, if I do nothing, he'll just do what he's got sort of squared away from me. And I think he makes by default good choices, and he's not just doing plug it into TurboTax stuff. Like, he's thinking through all the various implications.

Sean

00:09:32 – 00:09:59

And if he thinks there's something we need to talk about, then he'll generally bring it up with me. But, like, I do have to, like I wish you would provide me with, like, a prompt of, like, here are all the things that you should tell me because these are the things that are gonna, like, impact, you know, the taxes or whatever. But I've had to kinda come up with my own list. Well, that sucks. But, generally, if I'm doing something that's potentially having a tax yeah, I mean, I've reached out to him.

Sean

00:09:59 – 00:10:07

Like, we sold our house. I have this money sitting around from selling the house. I'm like, what do I what do I need to do with this, etcetera. He's good at all that stuff. Yeah.

Colleen

00:10:07 – 00:10:08

Very cool.

Sean

00:10:08 – 00:10:22

I still feel like there's space in our in our community for, like, a really good accountant that, like, actually does their job, like, high level, high touch could charge probably twice as much, you know, as mine does. And I feel like they would be so busy. It would be ridiculous.

Aaron

00:10:23 – 00:10:41

Agree. I think any, any accountant that wants to book using SavvyCal, I think you'd have a 1,000,000 customers, bootstrap customers. Oh, you use SavvyCal. You're not 85 years old. Colleen is, is this accountant the one that sent you like a 40 page organizer?

Aaron

00:10:41 – 00:10:49

I told you that. Fill out all of your documents. And I said, you should just tell him, no, I'm not going to do that. Is that this one?

Colleen

00:10:49 – 00:11:00

That's the that's the one. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, what am I paying you for? Like and again, he's a nice guy, but it was just like like, I I pay you so I don't have to fill out the 40 page document.

Colleen

00:11:00 – 00:11:04

Like, I might as well just do it in TurboTax if if this is what we're doing. Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron

00:11:06 – 00:11:27

So Yeah. Any other, accounting, lawyering? So so the one exciting one thing. Yeah. The one thing that the lawyer was saying we need to talk to the accountant about is the 83 b election, which I think determines when the taxable event like, when you recognize the taxes of your new part of Hammerstone.

Aaron

00:11:29 – 00:11:54

So I think, you know, just for context, that's what she was talking about. But I don't know too much else about that. The other thing she mentioned, which I thought was interesting, is is Colleen's portion of the company coming from Sean's and my portion, or is the company somehow magically expanding to have more shares? And that's something we'll need to figure out because I have no clue.

Sean

00:11:54 – 00:11:57

I think that's also a tax based decision, basically.

Aaron

00:11:57 – 00:11:58

I think it is.

Sean

00:11:59 – 00:12:03

Yeah. But, yeah, we're gonna have to explore all of that because I don't totally get it either.

Colleen

00:12:04 – 00:12:04

Yeah. Even stuff like

Sean

00:12:05 – 00:12:07

was another oh, go ahead, Colleen.

Colleen

00:12:07 – 00:12:15

I was gonna say even stuff like invoicing. Like, we invoice the customer the client. Do I invoice you guys, us us guys, us people?

Aaron

00:12:15 – 00:12:16

Us people.

Colleen

00:12:16 – 00:12:20

Or do I from my LLC, or do I take a distribution? Like, how

Sean

00:12:20 – 00:12:21

all of that

Aaron

00:12:21 – 00:12:22

You just distribute You

Sean

00:12:22 – 00:12:27

just distribute. From our bank account to yourself. Yeah. So we'll just invoice Amber Stone. You can just pay yourself.

Aaron

00:12:29 – 00:12:47

Yeah. I think that's right. But I don't know. Actually, we need to check because I don't know if, you know, calling takes that as an owner distribution. That doesn't that doesn't offset our revenue.

Aaron

00:12:47 – 00:12:56

So, like, if Hammerstone makes you know, let's say Hammerstone makes $10,000, but actually, 95100 of

Sean

00:12:56 – 00:12:57

it is to

Aaron

00:12:57 – 00:12:57

call me.

Sean

00:12:57 – 00:12:58

Good point.

Aaron

00:12:58 – 00:13:06

We need to recognize that as an expense. Otherwise, hammerstones paying taxes on $10,000. Yeah. So it's not an owner distribution.

Sean

00:13:07 – 00:13:09

No. We shouldn't do it that way. That's right.

Aaron

00:13:09 – 00:13:12

So let's not do accounting live on air because none of us know

Colleen

00:13:12 – 00:13:17

what we're talking about. Let's sort this out, though. This is definitely something to sort out.

Aaron

00:13:17 – 00:13:30

That's definitely definitely one we'll need to get sorted. I don't think anything changes. You've been invoicing us, and we've been paying you. And I don't think anything changes, but we'll need to double check that. Yeah.

Aaron

00:13:31 – 00:13:32

Fun stuff.

Colleen

00:13:32 – 00:13:42

I know. It is, like, surprising. I I'm sure we will be happy we hashed all this out but like at this point in the business, it feels frustrating. Right? Because it feels like it's slowing us down.

Colleen

00:13:42 – 00:13:46

We have to have meetings. We have to talk to a lawyer. She's like, Oh my gosh, can we just do our work?

Aaron

00:13:47 – 00:13:54

It's like, I don't want to write tests. I just want to write the products. Like this is, this is the testing of business. You have to do all the stuff you don't want to do.

Sean

00:13:54 – 00:13:59

Yeah. That's funny. I don't I don't mind it at all. Feels absolutely necessary.

Colleen

00:13:59 – 00:14:00

Oh, really? Great.

Aaron

00:14:00 – 00:14:01

Yeah. That's wonderful.

Colleen

00:14:01 – 00:14:02

Oh, that is

Sean

00:14:02 – 00:14:06

Like, it's a job that we have to do. I mean, gotta do it.

Colleen

00:14:06 – 00:14:11

That's interesting. Yeah. I just I don't know. I'm just, like, let's just skip all this. It's fine.

Colleen

00:14:11 – 00:14:14

But it's good to do it. You're absolutely right. Yep.

Aaron

00:14:14 – 00:14:42

That's why we have you, Sean. So I think, I you know, I we have all this context, and this is actually a podcast, not just a hangout. So I think it would be interesting to talk just quickly about how the 3 of us, like, how we ended up here, because like Sean said, he and I have just been YOLO ing it and just were like, yeah. We own 50% of the company. Let's shake hands.

Aaron

00:14:43 – 00:14:58

And that's because Sean and I didn't just meet on the Internet yesterday. And, you know, bringing in a third partner is a big deal, but we didn't just, you know, meet Colleen off the street. So, Sean, do you wanna talk about how you and I met and how long ago that was?

Sean

00:14:58 – 00:15:11

Yeah. It's before Isaac was born, so probably 8 years ago. And I was I just quit my job to start writing SketchUp with CSS, and I went to the Bacon Biz conference. Right? Isn't that what it's called?

Sean

00:15:11 – 00:15:11

Bacon Biz?

Aaron

00:15:11 – 00:15:14

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Amy Hoy and, Alex. Amy Hoy

Sean

00:15:14 – 00:15:17

and Alex Hillman. Yeah. Their thing. The first one, actually. Right?

Sean

00:15:17 – 00:15:19

Wasn't it the first one? I think so.

Aaron

00:15:19 – 00:15:21

Yeah. And Phil And do PO?

Sean

00:15:21 – 00:15:24

You shared a room with Josh Pigford on that.

Aaron

00:15:24 – 00:15:43

I did. Yeah. I did. I shared a room with Josh Pigford because the way that I knew Josh Pinkford was because I shared a room with him at MicroConf. He was on so MicroConf and Bacon bacon biz were the same year that year, and, he had posted on the micro comp thing, like, hey.

Aaron

00:15:43 – 00:15:53

Does anybody wanna share a room? I'm normal. I was like, I doubt you're normal, but I'll look you up. And I looked him up and we had, like, a Zoom call, and I was like, yeah. Sure.

Aaron

00:15:53 – 00:16:09

I don't have any friends there, and I need, like, you know, when you when you go into a conference and you don't know anyone and it's terrifying and it's like you're in high school with no friends? That's how I felt. And so I was like, yes. I'll share a room with this guy. And then he went to bacon biz, and so we shared a room again.

Aaron

00:16:09 – 00:16:11

It's so funny that you remember that.

Sean

00:16:13 – 00:16:17

Yeah. I met you. I met Buckbee. I met Barry. Mhmm.

Aaron

00:16:17 – 00:16:18

I think Pete was there.

Sean

00:16:18 – 00:16:19

Was there. Pete was there.

Aaron

00:16:20 – 00:16:21

Andrew was not there. No.

Colleen

00:16:21 – 00:16:21

No. No.

Sean

00:16:21 – 00:16:23

No. Pete wasn't there. Pete wasn't there.

Aaron

00:16:23 – 00:16:24

He wasn't?

Sean

00:16:24 – 00:16:27

No. No. I didn't meet Pete in real life for a few years.

Aaron

00:16:28 – 00:16:28

Oh, wow.

Sean

00:16:29 – 00:16:50

Yeah. But Pete was working on his Stripe book around that time. And then and then Andrew had so Andrew had a company called Churn Buster. Andrew Culver, a mutual friend of ours. So he had this company called Churn Buster, and Churn Buster had a hip chat support channel, which he just had it.

Sean

00:16:50 – 00:17:05

So he would invite people to hang out with him in there. And then every now and then, his HipChat customers I mean, his, churn buster customers would pop in and ask questions, and we'd be like, well, Andrew's not here, but, like, have you tried blah blah blah? Yeah. They can help them troubleshoot their problems.

Aaron

00:17:05 – 00:17:08

It was such a scam. We did all his support for him.

Sean

00:17:08 – 00:17:18

Yeah. And there was also briefly, same in that same hit chat room, there was Patrick Collison. Like, the Yeah. That's right. Was in the hip chat room with us for a while.

Aaron

00:17:18 – 00:17:24

I forgot about that. Yeah. We've had a couple people graduate out of our Yeah. They got a little chat.

Sean

00:17:26 – 00:17:47

Yeah. But, that's how we all met was that room, like, Buckbee invited us from that conference, and then we started hanging out, together there and then meet in real life every now and then. You know, it's BaconBiz conferences, etcetera. But so we just have this little community, which has been growing and changing over the years. Mhmm.

Sean

00:17:47 – 00:17:52

Now it's a Slack channel. It's not Andrew's, not Andrew's set support channel anymore.

Aaron

00:17:53 – 00:18:00

Yeah. 8 years ago. And then, Colleen, you met Andrew first. Is that right? Or you met Michelle?

Colleen

00:18:00 – 00:18:09

I met Andrew. No. I met Andrew first. Sean actually put Michelle and I in touch, I believe. So I met Andrew.

Colleen

00:18:09 – 00:18:25

I was going to the Ruby on Rails meetups in Virginia Beach, and there were, like, 3 people that attended these meetups. Like, it was not they were not well attended. So sad. But Andrew came to speak at 1, and this was maybe 4 or 5 years ago. I don't remember.

Colleen

00:18:26 – 00:18:48

Andrew came to speak at 1, and afterwards, we all went out to get drinks, all 4 of us, because he and one of our mutual friends knew each other really well. And so Andrew told me so this is, like, back when I'm in my just wanna launch a product phase kind of that you know, in the beginning when you, like, have that really strong desire, but you're aimless because you don't have any context?

Aaron

00:18:48 – 00:18:49

Absolutely. Yes.

Colleen

00:18:49 – 00:19:00

Yeah. That's back in those days. So Andrew and I were were talking about business ideas. So he told me about the Slack group. So then I joined the Slack group, and then I started having weekly lunches with the Virginia Beach people.

Colleen

00:19:00 – 00:19:14

And that's kinda how I got to know everyone. And then I met you guys. Well, Sean and I had worked on and off together. Occasionally, we were on the same contract, but we never really worked together. I feel like we were always we didn't really know each other even though we kind of worked together.

Colleen

00:19:17 – 00:19:20

And then I met you 2, what, 2 years ago in real life?

Aaron

00:19:21 – 00:19:22

I think it was 2 years

Colleen

00:19:22 – 00:19:23

ago. Years ago?

Aaron

00:19:23 – 00:19:23

In the d c

Sean

00:19:23 – 00:19:24

oh, in DC.

Aaron

00:19:24 – 00:19:26

That's the 3rd year. That's the first time.

Colleen

00:19:26 – 00:19:44

So before that, I had never met Aaron, and you were really active, Aaron, in the Slack channel. So I, like, didn't even know who you were. And Sean, I kinda knew because he was, like, the React guy that had worked on the same contract I worked on, but we had never really worked on together. Yeah. And then I met you guys, IRL, as they say.

Aaron

00:19:44 – 00:19:55

Yeah. And we have another. So, obviously, we skipped the retreat last year, but we have another in person retreat coming up. Yay. Hopefully.

Aaron

00:19:55 – 00:19:56

Hopefully. Yeah.

Colleen

00:19:56 – 00:19:58

Keep your fingers crossed. We'll see.

Aaron

00:19:58 – 00:20:00

I'm nerve I'm nervous about it.

Colleen

00:20:00 – 00:20:01

Yeah. Same.

Aaron

00:20:02 – 00:20:02

Colleen

00:20:02 – 00:20:05

would say though go ahead.

Sean

00:20:06 – 00:20:27

I was saying that I I feel nervous about it too. I wasn't even thinking about it, but until recently when all of a sudden I've had to start having new, like, bubble conversations with my parents about, like, who's gonna watch Isaac if, like, he has an outbreak in his class and, like, should we do the after school care for him, or you guys wanna commit to it so he's not, like, with all these other kids? Or yeah. And I'm like, oh, no. Is the retreat even gonna happen?

Sean

00:20:27 – 00:20:27

Let's

Aaron

00:20:28 – 00:20:28

I know.

Colleen

00:20:28 – 00:20:41

Yeah. I hope so. We'll see. Yeah. But I would say, like, going back to the 3 of us working together, we never really got to know each other well, I would say, until we started working together recently about what?

Colleen

00:20:41 – 00:20:55

6 months ago, 8 months ago now? I mean, I think that I don't think I any of us, and I can just speak for myself, you guys would not have invited me in to this company 8 months ago. Right? Like, we didn't have that relationship. I mean, we had no context on each other.

Colleen

00:20:55 – 00:21:05

We had never worked together. So I think, like, us forming a partnership has really grown over that working together almost every day, you know, over the extended period of time.

Aaron

00:21:06 – 00:21:24

Definitely. Yep. I would absolutely agree. Yeah. I think so I think just from my perspective, like, the thing the the problem that we're working on and maybe we should describe it because I don't know that everyone has listened from episode 1, which you should.

Aaron

00:21:25 – 00:22:05

So the the thing that we're doing is, it's like a visual query builder. So, you know, when you go to, let's use e commerce because that's an easy example. When you go to an e commerce website and you're like, I want shoes that are Nikes in size 11 or 12, and are black, and are under a $100, and ship in 2 days. So, like, you can build up your, you know, your perfect filter, just kinda like on the fly. We're building that as a component So you can just drop it in to your Rails application, or you can just drop it into your Laravel application.

Aaron

00:22:06 – 00:23:01

And then the application developer can say, here are all the conditions that I want to offer my users. I want to offer them shoe size, and shoe color, and price. And then Hammerstone, y'all figure out how do you show that on the front end, how do you do validation, how do you apply that to the database, how do you store that so that they can, like, you know, generate a report and send it later? So that's, like, that's the product we're building, and it's called Refine, and that's what we've been working on for a long time. And I think, from my perspective, one of the reasons that I was, like, yes, we absolutely have to have Colleen is because you've spent, like, 8 months or a year getting your head around this problem, which it takes that long, and I think you have an extremely good grasp on the problem space, and it's a, like, a very complicated problem.

Aaron

00:23:02 – 00:23:24

And you've got, like, you've got ideas on how to make it how to make it successful in the rails world, which I don't have. I don't have the context. I don't have the knowledge. I don't have the experience. And so somebody that has the whole problem set loaded into their mind and is really excited about it and wants to make it a Rails thing, I was like, yes.

Aaron

00:23:24 – 00:23:25

Let's do it. Bring her on. Absolutely.

Sean

00:23:29 – 00:23:55

Yeah. I think, it makes sense because it makes sense if we're if we're just doing, like, a really small, like, little project that's gonna make a couple $1,000 a month. First of all, Aaron, you should've just launched that without me. And then but we're not. Like, I think we have I have at least a larger sort of thesis in mind for building a lot of different types of components like this.

Sean

00:23:56 – 00:24:15

And we realized that, like, we can build front ends that are compatible with different back ends, and we could build a Rails version, Laravel version, a Python version. Like, there's a choice for how we could, like, expand our market. We could do we could go down that route. There's other ways to do it, but, like, that was a possibility. And here we are.

Sean

00:24:15 – 00:24:43

We were presented with the opportunity to build a Rails version paid for by a client, and now we can have somebody take over that piece and own that. That's a no brainer for me. So it kinda commits us to the strategy of, like, we're going for 2 different markets, and that's how we're gonna, you know, like, increase our market size. But I also think that makes sense long term. And and it makes sense to have Colleen run the run the rail side.

Colleen

00:24:45 – 00:25:06

I think so I have listened to your podcast. I think you guys are really like, I feel like your excitement. I don't know. I know you can kinda see the potential, but literally everyone I have ever worked for could use this query builder. So it's just I mean, when you describe it, Aaron, I think it's hard to describe it because someone asked me he was like, what is this thing that you guys are building that you're so excited about?

Colleen

00:25:06 – 00:25:24

And I was like, I don't know how to describe it concisely, but the power like, when you guys first when we first talked about this, I literally thought it was just gonna be, you know, a couple scopes. Right? Like, you're just like, oh, I'm gonna scope the model, and I'm gonna send you the string, and and you're just gonna scope the model on it. And that's not what it is at all. Right?

Colleen

00:25:24 – 00:25:36

Like like, that's not even close. And so I just think I think we could grow this business with just this product to, you know, larger than any of us have done before. Like, this product

Sean

00:25:36 – 00:25:37

is Definitely.

Colleen

00:25:38 – 00:25:53

Spectacular. I mean, it's just so cool and I think it'll be cool to like approach it on different fronts. It'll be really interesting to see how it does in rails versus, you know, Laravel, and just kinda see the growth trajectory in both of those ecosystems. Yeah. It's gonna be cool.

Sean

00:25:53 – 00:26:02

Yeah. To get there, though, like, there's there's some problems to solve. You know? Like, it's not like, yes. I definitely could.

Sean

00:26:03 – 00:26:24

Every entrepreneur could see how their product could be used everywhere. Like, that's a 100% true of every entrepreneur who creates a product. Like, everybody should use this. But, like, I think that for us, there's the obvious, like, low hanging fruit of we're gonna get some sales from on the side. Like, you and Aaron are basically gonna do, like, DevRel.

Sean

00:26:24 – 00:26:37

You're gonna do, like, a little bit of content marketing. You're gonna be building up the those relationships, and we'll get a few sprinkles of sales there. And those are gonna be people that are gonna buy it, like, because they're like, oh, yeah. I was gonna build this, but instead I'm gonna buy it. Right?

Sean

00:26:37 – 00:27:03

So they're already at that build versus buy decision point. Then and and they already know, like, they need the thing. They already know they need a query builder that they've probably already, like, used that word or phrase even. So they're pretty far along in the process. In order for us to get out further and deeper into the market, that's where we have to start doing some convincing or pointing out to people that, like, look, you can you you could drop this into your product now.

Sean

00:27:03 – 00:27:34

You don't even see the need for it, but, like, I could we then show can show the need for it. And I think that's a that's, like, another harder problem. So there's, like, how far can we get on people that are gonna make build versus buy decision and how how can we figure out systems to get in front of them right then? And then what's the next step, the next layer of, like, pulling in these other people that, like, you could add this into your app now, and it solves pains you didn't even know you had kind of situation, which is a lot harder. That's, like, a lot harder.

Sean

00:27:34 – 00:27:46

I think it's possible. I mean, I have already had conversations with somebody who's interested. Like, they were just, what are you doing? And I explained it to them, and then I explained it in the context of their app, and they were like, oh, I need it. Right?

Sean

00:27:46 – 00:27:52

So I know it's possible, but it's very hard, Wish that's gonna be my job.

Aaron

00:27:52 – 00:28:06

Yeah. Seriously. Yeah. And I think like Colleen, you've worked on a bunch of different clients, so you're not just looking out and being like, oh, the world needs this. You're looking back on your clients and being like, no.

Aaron

00:28:06 – 00:28:10

The people that I did work for in the app, they need this. Is that right?

Colleen

00:28:11 – 00:28:11

Yes.

Aaron

00:28:12 – 00:28:12

Yeah. And

Colleen

00:28:12 – 00:28:26

since they're my clients, like, I would, I mean, that's the nice thing about consultants. Right? I'd be like, you all need to buy this immediately. And they would. But to Sean's point, how do we expand past our existing networks?

Colleen

00:28:26 – 00:28:35

Right? Like, that's basically, you know, we have a we have pretty good networks of people in our community, people in the indie SaaS community. How do you expand beyond that?

Sean

00:28:38 – 00:28:43

Mhmm. Yeah. Exactly. That's that's the hard part. But if we do that, then we definitely have a business.

Sean

00:28:43 – 00:28:47

But that's, like, one of these things that we have to that's that's the hard part. Yep.

Aaron

00:28:47 – 00:28:50

Yeah. My, my move. That's going

Sean

00:28:50 – 00:28:51

to be a couple of years.

Aaron

00:28:51 – 00:29:29

My move so far has not been expanding beyond my personal network. It's been expanding my personal network. So like, I'm trying right now to gather up more and more Laravel like, connections and eyeballs. And the way I've been doing that is, you know, putting out either, open source projects or blog posts or Torchlight is another great example. Something that something that's not gonna make us rich, you know, independently, but is getting a lot of traction within Laravel, the ecosystem of people saying like, oh, this is really cool.

Aaron

00:29:29 – 00:29:48

Let me, you know, follow the story, follow this guy who's doing it, or sign up and use it myself. And so that's been my move so far, but, obviously, that only scales that only scales so far, but it's definitely, like, it's definitely step 1. I mean, might as well start with the inner circle.

Colleen

00:29:49 – 00:29:51

So And

Aaron

00:29:52 – 00:29:53

I think there's funds.

Sean

00:29:53 – 00:30:38

Me is another benefit of having Colleen was, like, it takes it I was gonna have to do what Colleen's doing now, like, on the rail side. Like, what you're doing in Laravel, I was gonna have to do that. And I am a Rails developer, but it's I'm not as well connected in that community, and it's a bit of a stretch. I could get there, but it like, the learning curve was gonna be large. I was trying to figure out ways to, like, hire contractors to, like, kinda get me there and, like but so this takes that off my plate entirely, and then I focus on the hard problem, which is, like, where I've been I have gotten to the point where I have a business that is selling products, paying my bills, doing what you're talking about, Aaron, doing the DevRel stuff and, like, having doing content marketing and that sort of thing.

Sean

00:30:38 – 00:30:48

I've been there. Getting past that is a whole other thing that I want to figure out and do, and that's, like, that's the goal for me at least.

Aaron

00:30:50 – 00:31:04

Well, I've never gotten to the point where I have a business paying my bills, like a product paying my bills. So I'm glad we have you beyond that because I you've been there. I have not. Colleen, you haven't either. Right?

Aaron

00:31:04 – 00:31:06

You have simple file upload, but it doesn't pay

Colleen

00:31:06 – 00:31:07

all the bills.

Aaron

00:31:09 – 00:31:18

And so to have your minds working on that issue while Colleen and I are doing other stuff, I think I think it's gonna work out quite nicely for everyone.

Sean

00:31:18 – 00:31:30

Like, I could just skip you guys ahead a year and tell you how you're gonna feel. A year from now, you're gonna be like, how do I make more money than this? I'm, like, right on the cusp of like a real business. What do I do? Yeah.

Sean

00:31:31 – 00:31:32

It's just the next step.

Aaron

00:31:33 – 00:31:36

Yeah. Well, hopefully you've got it all sorted out by then.

Sean

00:31:36 – 00:31:39

Yeah. I'll have it all figured out. Yeah. Perfect. No problem.

Sean

00:31:39 – 00:31:41

I'll just have Buckwhee tell me what to do.

Colleen

00:31:41 – 00:31:43

Seriously. That usually works.

Aaron

00:31:43 – 00:31:55

Yeah. That does that does usually work. Alright. What else? Nobody?

Aaron

00:31:55 – 00:31:56

Nobody? Nobody?

Colleen

00:31:56 – 00:31:57

I'm good.

Aaron

00:31:58 – 00:32:04

So we're gonna do we're gonna do 3 people from now on, right? Calling your game to join all

Colleen

00:32:04 – 00:32:05

of them. Yeah.

Aaron

00:32:05 – 00:32:23

Yeah. Alright. That's great. Some some weeks you and I can just talk technical the whole time. I think that's gonna be one of the fun things is like, I've already picked up a lot of good stuff for the Laravel product from, like, working with you.

Aaron

00:32:23 – 00:32:55

And I think that is gonna expand beyond just the refine. Like, refine is the name of our product, just beyond refine into other, like, either open source packages or other products. Be like, hey. What what exists in Laravel that doesn't exist in Rails and vice versa? I think that'll be a fun, like, cross pollination opportunity, either for content or for products, but I'm thinking right now, especially for content.

Colleen

00:32:56 – 00:32:56

Yeah.

Aaron

00:32:59 – 00:33:02

So alright. Well, shall we just call it there?

Colleen

00:33:03 – 00:33:04

Sounds good.

Aaron

00:33:05 – 00:33:05

Alright.

Hammerstone is Growing 👀

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