How Aaron Francis Turned a Layoff Into a Thriving Educational Empire

June 25, 2024

In this episode of the Business of Laravel podcast, host Matt Stauffer interviews Aaron Francis, co-founder of Try Hard Studios, beloved Internet personality, Laravel developer, and all-around Internet nice guy. Aaron shares his journey from his days at a property tax company to his bold leap into entrepreneurship, sharing insights into his evolution every step of the way. He discusses moving beyond the "hustle era" to what he terms the "Try Hard era," emphasizing the importance of concerted effort and determination in achieving success. Tune in to learn about Aaron's background, his passion for creating educational content, and the exciting ventures he's currently pursuing in the world of Laravel development. Matt Stauffer Twitter - Matt Stauffer (@stauffermatt) on X Tighten Website - Tighten | Software Development for Web + Mobile | Laravel + Vue.js Aaron Francis Twitter - @‌aarondfrancis Aaron Francis Website - aaronfrancis.com Try Hard Studios - tryhardstudios.com Radical Candor - https://www.radicalcandor.com/ 37 Signals - https://37signals.com/books/ Brené Brown - https://brenebrown.com/ ----- Editing and transcription sponsored by Tighten. https://tighten.com/
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Transcript

Matt
00:00:06 – 00:00:27
Hello, and welcome back to the Business of Laravel podcast where we are talking to people who are using, Laravel to build their businesses and building their businesses in the Laravel world. I'm your host, Matt Stauffer. And today, joining me is the Internet's darling. I think that's a good way to describe it, my good friend, Aaron Francis. So dear darling of the Internet, can you tell us a little bit about who are you?
Matt
00:00:28 – 00:00:34
And, I mean, we're gonna talk about what's your business now, but also we're gonna talk about your business then. But let's start with Sure. Who are you and what's your business now? What do you do today?
Aaron
00:00:34 – 00:00:35
This is
Aaron
00:00:35 – 00:00:49
very generous of you. Thank you for having me. Sure. My name is, Aaron Francis and Laravel developer database educator. I make a lot of videos, whether that's courses or YouTube or anything else.
Aaron
00:00:49 – 00:00:59
And now I am cofounder of a video studio. So me and my friend, Steve, are out on our own and having a whole lot of fun. So I'm I'm excited to be here.
Matt
00:01:00 – 00:01:02
I love it. Having fun in public too, which is the best part
Aaron
00:01:02 – 00:01:03
about it.
Matt
00:01:03 – 00:01:03
Like, I'm like
Aaron
00:01:03 – 00:01:04
That's great.
Matt
00:01:04 – 00:01:23
That's a life that I want from my friends. You know? I love this. So, yeah, so you you kind of have had a story of kind of coming to prominence that was like a slow trickle up to a like, oh, Aaron's everywhere. But it's one of those where people say, like, this person showed up overnight, but they were doing the work.
Matt
00:01:23 – 00:01:29
You know, people say that with artists a lot. Right? Like, this musician just popped up overnight, and they're like, yeah. But they've been touring for 10 years putting out albums. Yeah.
Matt
00:01:29 – 00:01:39
Exactly. And I feel like there's a lot of that. Like, I've known you for quite a while, and I would always be, like, love that guy. Wanna give him a job one day. Wanna work with him somehow one day.
Matt
00:01:39 – 00:02:05
And then I just, like, saw these little trickles, and I'm like, oh, like, Aaron's having his come up. And then that these last couple years, you've just blown up. And so I know there's been so many steps to that journey that had been a little bit more public. You know, people seeing you start creating, you know, getting a job, making videos, and then creating videos there, and then some other stuff that happened there, and now creating your own company and all that kind of stuff. But before then, you were working in Laravel in business before any of that that anybody knows about.
Matt
00:02:05 – 00:02:14
So I want us to get started there. Can we get started with what was the before then? What were you doing? What was your role? And what did it look like using Laravel in that business?
Matt
00:02:14 – 00:02:17
And, also, were you involved in that decision at all? Kinda like telling tell us a little
Aaron
00:02:17 – 00:02:38
bit about it. I was big time. So I, before so, I guess in 20 goodness gracious, 17 or 18, something like that, I was working as a data analyst, like a marketing data analyst for a big security company called Varonis. It was great, worked from home, do a lot of programming slash marketing. It was a nice mix of stuff.
Aaron
00:02:38 – 00:02:54
And at that point, my sister-in-law was working at a local property tax company which is about as interesting as it sounds to be honest with you. It's a it's a company here in in Dallas, Texas where I live that, like, helps homeowners protest their property values
Aaron
00:02:54 – 00:02:54
Oh, yeah. So they
Aaron
00:02:54 – 00:03:03
can pay less in taxes. Right? So we represent the homeowners going against the county to be like, no. That's you valued it too high. So it's a good business.
Aaron
00:03:04 – 00:03:17
My sister-in-law reached out to me and was like, hey. I know that you do something that is kinda like programming. Don't really know what you do, but our company needs some help. And I was like, great. I love doing side work.
Aaron
00:03:17 – 00:03:29
Let's talk about it. And so, I talked to these guys that own this company. It's 3 it's like 3 best friends that are like 2 years older than me. And they were running this company from literally Google Sheets and Zoho. Wow.
Aaron
00:03:29 – 00:03:57
You know, the Zoho suite, which is like Zoho invoice and CRM and all of that stuff. And just side note, they were crushing it. They were making a ton of money out of Google Sheets and Zoho. But the problem was, as I was as I was informed, there were times of the year where they would be at the office until midnight, 1, 2 in the morning, like, just printing stuff out and just like entering stuff into the CRM.
Matt
00:03:57 – 00:03:58
Oh, Lord.
Aaron
00:03:58 – 00:04:20
Because that was it. They didn't, like, they would literally answer the phone from somebody saying, hey, I wanna protest my property. And they would like type it down and they wouldn't put it in the CRM because it would take too long. So they would just type it all down and then after the phone stopped ringing, they would go back and put everything in and then print out contracts and send like they were doing PDF merges. And so I got in there and was like, yo, this is wild.
Aaron
00:04:20 – 00:04:38
What are you doing? It's one of those things that like, if if there was an ability to discover businesses like this, like, just easily, programmers could literally change the world. But these businesses are everywhere and they're so hard to like get into because you gotta know a guy that knows a guy that knows a guy. Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron
00:04:38 – 00:04:59
So I got in there and the first thing I did on contract was just like automate their Google sheets stuff. I wrote a bunch of apps scripts and it was really awesome and it would like do a bunch of stuff. And then at one point, one of the guys was like, hey, what if we hired you to be our first and only programmer? I was like, well, you're like a local services firm. I'm a programmer.
Aaron
00:04:59 – 00:05:07
I don't know if you can afford my salary. And they were like, yeah. We can definitely afford it. And that was my first taste like doing well. Oh, shoot.
Aaron
00:05:07 – 00:05:26
Businesses businesses outside of programming do well. Yeah. And so I went in and the first, like, you know, I helped stabilize kind of their current systems, and then the goal was to get them off of off of Google Sheets. And Yeah. So I started as the only programmer, and I started building a Laravel, like, basically internal CRM.
Aaron
00:05:26 – 00:06:01
And that's what I did for the next 5 years. So I went from the only programmer to, supervising a few programmers to finally at the end after the 5 years, I was I was in charge of everyone. Like the 3 owners didn't have any direct reports and I was the COO and had the whole company reporting to me. And we built we built the most, like, automated, powerful internal CRM for this property tax company. So when I started there were, you know, let's say x properties under representation.
Aaron
00:06:02 – 00:06:16
And when I left, there were 6 x of those properties. Wow. All because all because it was, like, process was automated. And so that was kinda where I got my business plus Laravel chops, in the beginning.
Matt
00:06:16 – 00:06:25
So, first of all, what was your experience with Laravel leading into that? Was this like a trying Laravel out? Or were you like, no, I've done stuff with it prior to that?
Aaron
00:06:25 – 00:06:33
I I had done stuff with it prior to that. I think I started Laravel with maybe 5 o. Some somewhere around 2014 or
Matt
00:06:33 – 00:06:34
Yeah.
Aaron
00:06:34 – 00:06:42
13. After I I tried yi, y I I, yi 2 for a while, and then, switched to Laravel shortly thereafter.
Matt
00:06:42 – 00:06:58
Okay. Was there any question for you as you were trying to decide the tech stack? You're like, should I use, you know, dot net because I'm in businessy stuff? Should I use Symfony because or was it just sort of like, no. It's obviously gonna be Laravel because I know what I could do with Laravel.
Aaron
00:06:59 – 00:07:14
Yeah. It was obviously gonna be Laravel. I mean, I grew up on PHP literally. And so I've just loved PHP for forever. And when I got, like, when I started working with the property tax company, I knew it was gonna be it's gonna be kind of the iceberg.
Aaron
00:07:14 – 00:07:31
Right? There was gonna be like 10% on the front end and then 90% was gonna be, like, making PDFs, emailing them to the county, scraping county websites. Like, everything was gonna be on the back end. And so, I just picked up picked up Laravel and got to work on queued jobs, basically. Nice.
Matt
00:07:31 – 00:07:32
That was,
Aaron
00:07:32 – 00:07:36
like, that was, like, 50% of the app was jobs that just, like, keep trying.
Matt
00:07:36 – 00:07:51
Uh-huh. One of the things you you said, you know, these kind of, like, powerful back end processes, and that's usually the place where someone says, oh, you know, like, I love Laravel. I love PHP, whatever, but, like, when I get into heavy stuff, I gotta get into Rust or Python or whatever. Did you find yourself ever having to reach outside PHP?
Aaron
00:07:52 – 00:08:00
No. Not even a little bit. I mean, everything we were doing, I I'm very proud of the work we did. It's all schlepping data around. That was it.
Aaron
00:08:00 – 00:08:09
I mean, it wasn't like I think like the most process intensive stuff that we ever did was like merging, building and merging PDFs.
Matt
00:08:10 – 00:08:10
You
Aaron
00:08:10 – 00:08:23
know, because sometimes we would build these, like, evidence packets of like valuations and comps and pictures Yep. That people sent in. And it ended up being like a 50 page PDF. But like, why don't it just just do that on the server. And we had like 1 Yeah.
Aaron
00:08:23 – 00:08:30
Giant digital ocean box that just did everything. And it was like, alright. We got more important stuff to worry about. We gotta, you know, we got phones to answer.
Matt
00:08:30 – 00:08:32
So we just need to see micro services.
Aaron
00:08:33 – 00:08:45
No. No. It was like It was and it still is a massive digital ocean box. And, like, when things started slowing down, it just got the credit card out and hit upgrade. And it was like, okay, now it works again.
Matt
00:08:45 – 00:08:47
As a site was it was it a monolith?
Aaron
00:08:48 – 00:08:50
Yes. Of course. Yeah. And it was
Matt
00:08:50 – 00:08:50
like This is
Aaron
00:08:50 – 00:09:06
It was heavy Vue JS on the front end, but it this was pre inertia days. And so it's, like, you know, you spit out some blade that basically has, like, Vue that that takes over certain parts of the page. But it was like, Vue 2, options, API. It was the glory days, man. Yeah.
Aaron
00:09:06 – 00:09:11
I love that. It was early tailwind, view 2, Laravel. We had we had a lot of fun.
Matt
00:09:11 – 00:09:15
I love that. So when you were hiring, did you hire locally or did you hire remotely?
Aaron
00:09:16 – 00:09:34
So the first guy that I hired was actually a friend of mine who was local. And this is back when we were actually in an office. And so, he would come in. I think he would come in 3 days a week because he lived a little further north in Dallas. But then after that, we hired we hired remote.
Aaron
00:09:34 – 00:09:59
Because when COVID hit, that was one of the good parts about what we had built. When COVID hit, we were able to do everything remotely. And this includes, like, you know, we would have 15 seasonal workers that we hired for, like, 3 months that would come into our office and answer the phones from like maybe February through May or something like that. And so, it wasn't just like, hey, we've got a couple programmers and everybody's used to working remote. It was Yeah.
Aaron
00:10:00 – 00:10:17
We've got literally these people off the streets. These people who are like, I want a job, but only for 3 months, and then I'm gonna go do whatever it is I do. Go hike to whatever you got. All these nontechnical people that we have to now manage remotely and the like, having that internal CRM made that just totally possible.
Matt
00:10:18 – 00:10:22
And I had forgotten about the fact that those people you so you manage those people too eventually.
Aaron
00:10:22 – 00:10:23
Oh, yeah. Mhmm.
Matt
00:10:23 – 00:10:29
So you're building the tool for them to use, but then you're also hiring them, training them. So you really kind of understood the usability there. Wow.
Aaron
00:10:29 – 00:10:47
Oh, it was awesome. I ran the trainings. Like I ran, you know, we would hire these these 15 people to answer phones, and these 10 people we would hire seasonal property tax agents as well. Mhmm. And so, we would have these training sessions where it's like 30, 25 brand new people just, like, walked in our front door.
Aaron
00:10:48 – 00:11:07
And I've gotta train them on this massive CRM that handles, you know, client intake, form generation, emailing counties, scraping counties, like handles all of that. And I had to train them on everything. And it was great because you're you're forced to like face the reality that the thing you thought was clever is confusing.
Matt
00:11:07 – 00:11:09
And so then you, like, you're like, ultimate dog pooting.
Aaron
00:11:09 – 00:11:10
It's like
Matt
00:11:10 – 00:11:14
and you're not it's not just you using it. You're training noobs to use it on a regular basis.
Aaron
00:11:14 – 00:11:22
Exactly. Noobs that don't super care about their job. Right. But you you care that they do a good job, so you gotta put everything on rails for sure.
Matt
00:11:22 – 00:11:34
Yeah. I love that. So in managing and hiring programmers, I'm really curious because I get questions from people all the time who are like, hey, are you sure we should use Laravel for this app? You know? Like, I see JavaScript programmers everywhere.
Matt
00:11:34 – 00:11:41
What is it like to to hire Laravel programmers? And I have a certain experience from like, but Titan has a reputation, so it's easy for me to hire Laravel programmers.
Aaron
00:11:41 – 00:11:42
Mhmm.
Matt
00:11:42 – 00:11:45
What was it like for you hiring Laravel programmers? Did you find it difficult?
Aaron
00:11:47 – 00:12:02
Not really. So the first guy that I hired was a c sharp programmer that was looking to get out of that world. And so I was like, hey, I'll try you on a contract basis to do Laravel. And he picked it up almost immediately and he's been with the company since then. So Yeah.
Aaron
00:12:02 – 00:12:14
You know, 4 4 years now. Yeah. The first time I went looking for, like, proper Laravel developers because, you know, Brian kinda just like fell in my lap. He's like, oh, that's great. Then I had to go find somebody.
Matt
00:12:14 – 00:12:14
Yeah.
Aaron
00:12:14 – 00:12:31
And I put out a I just put out a tweet. And this is back when I had like, you know, 1100 followers. So it wasn't like I'm leveraging my network. It was just, I just put something on the internet. And I think it was easy because I was like, hey, we're using latest Laravel, Vue 2, Tailwind.
Aaron
00:12:32 – 00:12:35
Do you wanna in a small company that will pay you well. Do you wanna come work
Matt
00:12:35 – 00:12:35
for us?
Aaron
00:12:35 – 00:12:46
And I got a lot of I got a lot of people that were like, yes. I would love to. And we ended up hiring. That time we ended up hiring the nicest person in the world. He's a Canadian Mormon.
Aaron
00:12:46 – 00:13:02
So there's no like nicer person possible than a than a Mormon Canadian. And Yep. He's been with the company ever since also. And he's awesome. He lives in a in a silly little town called Medicine Hat, which is just like, nothing could be more Canadian than a town called Medicine Hat.
Matt
00:13:02 – 00:13:07
You have a Mormon Canadian from Medicine Hat. Okay. Dude, he's amazing.
Aaron
00:13:08 – 00:13:20
Yeah. And since then, we've hired a few more. I think we have so we've got him in Canada, Brian in Austin, and one in Mexico City, and then we've hired a few contractors here and there. Nice. Then there's one there's one or 2
Aaron
00:13:20 – 00:13:21
more since I left that are now full time. So I think they have, like, a team of 5 programmers. Okay. What
Aaron
00:13:23 – 00:13:24
as
Matt
00:13:27 – 00:13:40
What as you were learning, as you're making the transition from being a programmer to being a sort of CTO to becoming, like, a COO. Mhmm. How did you learn? Like, what how did you figure it out? Is it completely just learning on the spot?
Matt
00:13:40 – 00:13:43
Were there podcasts and books and stuff that, like, helped you make that transition?
Aaron
00:13:45 – 00:13:58
Yeah. A lot of it was learning on the spot. I've also been lucky to have several really good managers in in my career going all the way back when I was an accountant. I've had, you know, good good bosses. I've also had bad ones and so I know.
Aaron
00:13:58 – 00:14:24
Yeah. But I also did a lot of reading. Yeah. I I, you know, read a lot of books, printed out some stuff, read it. And then, and then, I think, my greatest my my greatest, like, strength or accomplishment there was, like, treating people like humans, and being like empathetic and understanding that like, you know, work is important, but other stuff is going on as well.
Aaron
00:14:24 – 00:14:47
And being like firm, but kind, and it it was like, there were a lot of things that I feel like I was I had led up to me being a good manager. Mhmm. And so I really enjoyed it. I I liked it a whole lot. It was, it was a lot of like, especially with some of the seasonal workers, a lot of just like personal, interpersonal, like emotional.
Aaron
00:14:47 – 00:14:54
It's less Yeah. It's less technical and more like, how do I get the the best out of this person and make them feel like
Matt
00:14:54 – 00:14:54
Yeah.
Aaron
00:14:54 – 00:14:58
They should do a good job here? And that was fun. That was fun for me.
Matt
00:14:58 – 00:15:16
Yeah. I love that. I mean, we've talked about this before, but my job before programming was in ministry. And I was like, yeah, I'm not my job today is not that different compared to what you'd expect from, you know, that CEO of a tech company because I'm like, I'm caring about people and making sure that they're, you know, they're heard and making good statements.
Aaron
00:15:16 – 00:15:20
You're shepherding the flock, Matt? Is that what would you would you say that?
Matt
00:15:21 – 00:15:23
I understand the comparison.
Aaron
00:15:23 – 00:15:27
One one might say that. You would not. One might. One might.
Matt
00:15:27 – 00:15:42
Yeah. So yeah. No. I totally feel that. If so, I know you said lots of books and lots of stuff, but if I were a young up and coming person who said, Hey, I'm a programmer, and I just started at this company, and I really aspire to be a leader in this company Mhmm.
Aaron
00:15:42 – 00:15:42
But
Matt
00:15:42 – 00:15:48
I have no leadership experience. Is there one book for that particular person that you'd say, you know what? Let's get started with this one.
Aaron
00:15:49 – 00:15:49
Gosh.
Aaron
00:15:52 – 00:15:57
I'm trying to remember some of the stuff I read. I feel like Radical Candor is on there.
Matt
00:15:58 – 00:15:59
Love that book.
Aaron
00:15:59 – 00:16:16
You know, I feel I I feel like some people might balk, but a lot of the 37 signals early business stuff is really, really great. I find that they cut through a lot of the, like, jargon and stuff, and they're just like, hey, why don't why don't you just be a human?
Aaron
00:16:16 – 00:16:16
I I
Aaron
00:16:16 – 00:16:36
remember one specific thing out of their book is don't scar on the first cut. And it's like if somebody does something wrong don't implement a policy the first time. Just be like hey, guy Don't wear shorts and flip flops to work anymore. You don't need to go make a rule and, like, create the scar tissue on the first cut. And so some of that early stuff was really really great.
Matt
00:16:36 – 00:16:36
Yeah.
Aaron
00:16:36 – 00:16:48
But, yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of, like, more of the soft side of managing that I feel like is it is it Brene Brown that who's who does radical candor? Who is that?
Matt
00:16:48 – 00:16:51
That's not Brene Brown. That's somebody else. Right. Empathy stuff. Yeah.
Aaron
00:16:51 – 00:16:52
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt
00:16:53 – 00:16:57
We'll learn in just a second. Kim Malone Scott.
Aaron
00:16:57 – 00:17:04
Okay. So do Radical Empathy and then Other Stuff by Brene Brown. But yeah. Stuff stuff like that was really helpful,
Aaron
00:17:04 – 00:17:05
I think, for me.
Matt
00:17:05 – 00:17:30
I love that. There was a talk I gave a while back about empathy and Brene Brown's research about empathy was really core to it. And, it's one of those things where what I really appreciate is when you learn things like you were saying from good and bad managers or whatever, and then you come across materials later. Sometimes you're gonna read a book or listen to and you're like, yeah. That's that's what I figured out on my own, but it's nice to have words for it.
Matt
00:17:30 – 00:17:39
Yes. I felt very similarly about Brown's work, about radical candor. I was like, great. Thank you for the language for this thing that I figured out the hard way. Now let me give this material to somebody else so they can figure out the easy way, hopefully.
Matt
00:17:40 – 00:17:50
You know? So. Okay. So I wanna go so much further into that, but I also there's so much more and we're already, like, halfway into our things. So let's let's, you know, pause there.
Matt
00:17:51 – 00:18:11
Is there any particular or actually one last thing. Is there any particular technical challenge that you ran into earlier that that you really just, like, was your favorite thing that you had to solve that required the most creativity or innovation or I can't believe that's how we did it, that it's just like a fun story. Is there anyone that really stands out for
Aaron
00:18:12 – 00:18:35
you? Yeah. I think the one of the most fun things I did there was we built basically we we basically rebuilt Google Sheets inside of our application. Uh-huh. And it allowed us, so speaking directly to Laravel, it allowed us to represent eloquent models in a spreadsheet view.
Aaron
00:18:35 – 00:19:12
And if you changed a cell in the spreadsheet, it could change one or many, attributes on the model and we could run Like, I had macros. So, like, if somebody changed this thing, then like 4 other cells would populate. Yeah. And that was that was just like unbelievably fun because one, it was it was very hard, but 2, it was very powerful and fulfilling for, like, the property tax agents who who will go to a hearing with the county and they will work a 150 properties in a sitting. And so they're just like it can't be I gotta click into a new screen and I gotta go here.
Aaron
00:19:12 – 00:19:14
It's gotta be like here's all the data.
Matt
00:19:14 – 00:19:15
Blah, blah, blah. Yep.
Aaron
00:19:15 – 00:19:19
And you gotta like alright. Here's the final value. Oh, great. We agree on that. Let me type it in.
Aaron
00:19:19 – 00:19:21
Next one. Boom. Next one. Boom. Yeah.
Aaron
00:19:21 – 00:19:40
And to have that synced not only to our back end, but to the other agents who might be in a in a different hall, like, a different room down the hall. And everybody can see what everybody is doing. Yeah. So they know it's crazy. So they know that the other like the the guy down the hall is getting better cuts and so I'm gonna slow down so that my Let's
Matt
00:19:40 – 00:19:41
say that.
Aaron
00:19:41 – 00:19:58
I'm working with my appraiser, we don't burn through too many properties because I'm watching this other guy and he's getting great cuts. So I wanna give him some properties. So stuff like that was of just a freaking blast. And I I wanna like I wanna do a video series on it because it's so interesting and it's so hard, but it's a lot
Matt
00:19:58 – 00:20:19
of fun. Yeah. We've done something like that once and it's often made me think, like, there's there's something about we always talk about, oh, my god. They built their business on Google Sheets, and now we're gonna give them a full and and it's, like, yeah. But there's things you can do in Google Sheets in terms of speed and, you know, that that your average CRUD app, it's gonna take so much longer.
Matt
00:20:19 – 00:20:25
It's gonna be so many more steps. And we think it's an improvement. And in some ways, it's improvement. But from a user interface perspective, it isn't always. So that's really cool to hear that.
Matt
00:20:25 – 00:20:27
You're like, no. That's not the best way.
Aaron
00:20:27 – 00:20:44
No. And there are times when you want, there are times you want a, like, single view of a property because you can do a lot more stuff on a webpage, right? Yeah. And there are times when you wanna represent 400 properties on a single spreadsheet. And it's like the ability to do both is very is very fun and interesting.
Matt
00:20:44 – 00:20:50
Yeah. Well, I'm I'm I'm ready for that course when you put it out. I'm excited for it. Alright. So let's let's wrap up that time in your life.
Matt
00:20:50 – 00:21:05
And so, I do wanna spend a little bit of time in the transition from there just because the story of your life is so interesting, the things you've done, and then we'll land on your current venture and spend the last, you know, 20 minutes there. So Mhmm. What led you to leave there, and where'd you go from there?
Aaron
00:21:06 – 00:21:17
Yeah. So I was there for, you know, 5 years or so, and started to feel like I kinda wanna be more in the tech world. Like, I am fully in the local services world doing tech.
Matt
00:21:18 – 00:21:18
Yeah.
Aaron
00:21:18 – 00:21:38
And I kinda wanted to, like, enter into the space more. And so at that time, I saw, Ben Orenstein tweet about Tuple, pair programming app and say like, hey, we're looking for a marketer who's also a developer. You wanna come work with us? And I was like, oh, that's interesting. You know, I'd follow his journey for a while.
Aaron
00:21:38 – 00:21:49
So I reached out to him and he was like, hey, this is an experimental role. And I was like, that's great. Because I've never really been a marketer. And so, yeah. So we tried it for like 6 or 9 months, and it was fun.
Aaron
00:21:49 – 00:22:07
But I think the it came down to like, they need a marketer to like buy ads and do stuff like that. And that's just not me. And so, from there, I went to a database company called PlanetScale which is where I was up until, 2, 3 months ago when they laid off half the company, myself included.
Matt
00:22:08 – 00:22:09
Yeah. So that's kinda how we got
Aaron
00:22:09 – 00:22:10
to where we are today.
Matt
00:22:10 – 00:22:42
Yeah. Quick transition. And Yeah. One of the things that happened for those who don't know, because I I definitely need this to be understood, is is Aaron I Aaron came to Internet prominence, not just like being like a, hey, this is a developer, but, like, this is a guy where someone says Aaron puts something out and everybody runs to it. Around that time period of those kind of those two jobs, I feel like you kind of you you made that switch and you're like, not only am I creating very creative and innovative things here, but I'm also sharing about a lot of stuff on Twitter, and I'm creating these YouTube videos.
Matt
00:22:43 – 00:23:13
And you've really built a following at PlanetScale to the point where I've seen people on the regular comment on your YouTube saying things like, I followed you here from PlanetScale. I never even used PlanetScale, but I liked you so much from those videos that now I follow you to whatever you do. And I don't use Laravel, but I'm following your Laravel videos because I like you so much. What how much of that was a, an intentional thing, and how much of that was just like a, well, I made these videos for work, and that's where people
Aaron
00:23:13 – 00:23:13
found me.
Matt
00:23:13 – 00:23:24
Like, were you building, like, a whole I don't wanna say media empire, but, like Mhmm. Were you being super intentional to create your own videos, your own Twitter stuff? Or Or is it more like, hey, this is what I'm doing for work, and I'm gonna share it, and people just like what I'm doing for work?
Aaron
00:23:25 – 00:23:47
Yeah. I think it was pretty strategic. I think one of one of my personality, like, strengths is strategy. And so I knew I knew going into PlanetScale, like, this is a good platform for me. Like, this is this is going to boost my, you know, my personal brand.
Aaron
00:23:47 – 00:24:09
Yeah. And, you know, get me expand me a little bit outside of Laravel into broader developer world because it's it's databases. Everybody needs a database. Yeah. And so, with that comes or I felt that with that came a lot of responsibility to be like, to do my duty and to be pure and noble towards planet scale.
Aaron
00:24:09 – 00:24:32
And so like everything everything that I did, I tried first to think about how how can I, like, help planet scale? It's really nice that it also helps me. And so, you know, that put me in kind of a tricky spot because at at times I thought about, well, what if I were to leave? Like, what are the good opportunities? Like, I, you know, I definitely talked to Taylor about coming to work at Laravel.
Aaron
00:24:32 – 00:24:48
And I thought, I've really, like, I've really, not weaseled, but like what's the positive term for weaseled? I've really weaseled my way into becoming the the face of planet scale. Yeah. And I would I would feel bad Bad
Matt
00:24:48 – 00:24:48
if you were
Aaron
00:24:48 – 00:24:48
just just
Aaron
00:24:48 – 00:24:54
being like, hey, thanks for all the fish. I'm out. Yeah. And then they laid me off. And so, it's like, oh.
Matt
00:24:55 – 00:24:56
Well, they Okay.
Aaron
00:24:56 – 00:25:14
Great. That's awesome. So it it really did, like, it really did work out super well for me because Yeah. I felt a right or wrong. I felt a moral responsibility to, like, continue to give this company, like, my all because I, like, put myself in a key man position.
Aaron
00:25:14 – 00:25:35
And then, when I got laid off, it was great because that's like a Everyone that knows that I got laid off knows that I didn't leave the company high and dry. Right? It feels a little bit and this is all personal. It feels a little bit to me, like, if I were to become the face of PlanetScale and then say, see you, that feels like, oh, bubble.
Matt
00:25:35 – 00:25:36
Guilt and some Yeah.
Aaron
00:25:36 – 00:25:38
It's like, oh, that was kinda
Aaron
00:25:38 – 00:25:38
that was
Aaron
00:25:38 – 00:25:39
kinda icky
Matt
00:25:39 – 00:25:39
of him.
Aaron
00:25:39 – 00:25:42
But to become the face of Planetscale and then through no fault of
Matt
00:25:42 – 00:25:43
my own get laid off, it's
Aaron
00:25:43 – 00:25:45
like I can't get any better than that.
Matt
00:25:45 – 00:25:57
Well, see and then not only is the ick gone, but now you have, like, the empathy. Everyone's like, oh, Aaron put so much work in for plants, and you did. And then everyone's like, how can I help you? And you're like, I guess this is a perfect platform for
Aaron
00:25:57 – 00:25:57
whatever I
Matt
00:25:57 – 00:25:58
do next.
Aaron
00:25:58 – 00:25:59
Love it. Love it. Exactly.
Matt
00:26:00 – 00:26:33
One of the things that I talk about a lot on the internet, and I don't know if you and I have gotten a chat about this, is the idea that, like, it's most important for us to find ways to do good that happens to benefit us versus benefiting ourselves in a way that happens to do good. And it's such this, like, narrow of a distinction, but it changes our attitude and our response in difficult moments. It changes kind of the core tenor of what we're doing when we're saying, I want to teach everybody. And, wow, that's really cool that when I teach, I gain a whole bunch of followers. I and you said, I wanna be pure and noble in my, you know, my intentions towards PlanetScale.
Matt
00:26:34 – 00:26:39
And, I mean, that's that's a company. Like, we don't tend to use the words pure or noble when we talk to our relationship
Aaron
00:26:39 – 00:26:39
with a
Matt
00:26:39 – 00:26:48
giant capitalist organization. Right? Mhmm. But in the end, you're like, they're paying me to do this, and I want to have integrity in the way I interact with the thing. And, great, it benefits my career.
Matt
00:26:48 – 00:27:05
And I think that's a really fun way to think about it. And I mean, like, you and I have occupied similar spaces of trying to be, like, good people on the Internet who lead people towards good and who amplify other people who are doing good things. Do you feel and this is a weird question. It just popped in my brain. But do you
Aaron
00:27:05 – 00:27:06
feel kind
Matt
00:27:06 – 00:27:20
of like a obligation or calling or anything like that towards your impact, do you ever feel guilt? And I hope you don't, but I do. I do. And so do you ever feel guilt for making money off of these things? Do you feel a calling towards doing good?
Matt
00:27:20 – 00:27:44
You know, especially coming out of some of our backgrounds. You know, kind of like one of the things that and I to give a little bit of context, one of the things I found a lot of developers struggle with is anytime they have to market or advertise something they're doing, they feel awful. They're like, oh, I just wanna do good work, and I feel so bad selling it and marketing it. Mhmm. Are there things in as you're starting a business and, you know, making money off of this that you feel that you're having to wrestle with any kind of guilt for?
Matt
00:27:44 – 00:27:49
Or do you feel like because you've been doing it in what feels like a pure and noble way, you're able to keep it balanced?
Aaron
00:27:50 – 00:27:56
Yeah. That is interesting. I don't feel any guilt about it at all.
Matt
00:27:56 – 00:27:56
I love that.
Aaron
00:27:56 – 00:28:21
Not, not even a little bit. And I think for, I think for a few, there are few reasons. So we, you and I, share same religious background upbringing. I I continue in the tradition, and I think doing good work is the right thing to do. Like, I don't owe, you know, historically, I don't owe PlanetScale anything.
Aaron
00:28:21 – 00:28:25
But I I still think doing good work is the right thing to do. Yeah.
Matt
00:28:26 – 00:28:27
And so a lot of it
Aaron
00:28:27 – 00:28:40
comes, like, a lot of the the, the drive comes from that, that, like, my I I am called and compelled to do my best even if nobody cares about it or nobody notices
Matt
00:28:40 – 00:28:41
it. Right?
Aaron
00:28:41 – 00:29:06
I think on the on the, like, capitalist side, the flip side is, I I grew up watching my dad do his best and do better than everyone else, but not play the game. And he lost his job a bunch of times. He was a DBA. So, like, it's same same world. And he just, like, got laid off a bunch of times.
Aaron
00:29:06 – 00:29:35
And so, that kind of colored my experience of, like, you can do the absolute best thing and you can you can do the pure right and noble thing. But if you don't talk about it and you don't tell people like, look at what I'm doing, people aren't gonna know. And, like, there's there's some part of me that's like, there's some part of me that's like, it would be better if you didn't have to do that. It's like, oh, sure. I mean, maybe.
Aaron
00:29:35 – 00:29:41
In a platonic ideal world that's made up, it would be great if it was everything was a meritocracy.
Matt
00:29:41 – 00:29:41
Right.
Aaron
00:29:41 – 00:29:48
And like you can I think you can be of 2 minds? You can want that to be true, but you also have to understand that it's not true.
Matt
00:29:48 – 00:29:49
Right.
Aaron
00:29:49 – 00:30:04
Yeah. It's just not true. Believe it or not. You can spend your entire life, like, just raging against the machine and being like, I don't have to market my work will speak for itself. And that's fine, you can do that.
Aaron
00:30:04 – 00:30:24
Or you can say, like, oh, the world works in such a way that if I'm not making myself visible, nobody's going to see me. And I wish it were different, but it's not. And so that's kinda that's kinda how I feel. Like, work is good and pure and noble of its own accord. And if you want to, like, win the game, you have to play the game.
Matt
00:30:25 – 00:30:39
Yes. And winning the game is not a selfish thing. Winning the game is not a bad and, like, I think one of the things that really helps is, like, well, why do we have this inherent thing, at least a lot of western culture and a lot of my upbringing where, like, wanting to be successful or wanting to make money is this bad thing. And I'm like Mhmm. Okay.
Matt
00:30:39 – 00:30:47
How about I reframe this to be, I would like to take care of my children. I would like to send them to college. I would like to for them not to have food insecurity. Right?
Aaron
00:30:47 – 00:30:47
Mhmm.
Matt
00:30:47 – 00:31:01
Like, I would not not I would like for them not to stress if we have to move our house because, you know, all of a sudden, work's not coming through anymore. You know? Like Mhmm. Those are noble things to do, and those require money because of the world that we live in. Right?
Matt
00:31:01 – 00:31:10
And it's just, like, not being laid off all the time requires a level of success. It requires a level of indispensability at work, which requires people to know that you're doing that good work. And so
Aaron
00:31:10 – 00:31:11
it's just sort of
Matt
00:31:11 – 00:31:25
like yeah. I love I love hearing you say that because that that was the guilt. I felt guilty Mhmm. Whenever I tried to do a really good job and be seen for doing the good job, even in the midst of trying to do a good job in a pure and noble and caring way Mhmm. Because I'm, like, oh, I'm pursuing success.
Matt
00:31:25 – 00:31:29
And and to your point, it's, like, we live in the world we live in.
Aaron
00:31:30 – 00:31:46
We do. Yeah. I mean, even, like, it's it's it's similar. Jack McDade tweeted something the other day about AI taking all the creative creativity out of the world. And, my point of view on that is like, yes, net bad for society that AI is like taking all this creative stuff.
Aaron
00:31:47 – 00:32:07
I'm not I can't change the world. I can't I can't stop that train, but what I can do is look at that and be like, well, I'm gonna continue to create human generated stuff and I think that's gonna be a big win for me. So it's like Yeah. I think that's the right thing to do. I also think it's a good like it it benefits me to like continue to be a a human that you can know on the Internet.
Aaron
00:32:07 – 00:32:14
And, like, the tension is what's good for society. I don't know. I can't really change that, but I can I can change my little world?
Aaron
00:32:14 – 00:32:15
And I
Aaron
00:32:15 – 00:32:22
think that's like you have to kinda like narrow the locus of control and say, I can't change the universe or the world, but I can change my little world.
Matt
00:32:23 – 00:32:54
Yeah. And your little world may involve your family and your neighbors and your, you know, your ecosystem or whatever. So, like Mhmm. It's fun to be able to say that we can't change the world, but I also would say that you have made a big impact on the world around you where you have a sphere influence of people who look up to Aaron Francis in part because he is kind and caring or whatever. And I think that that benefits the world that we're in because it makes more people see value in being kind and caring, and they see more people to look up to who are kind and caring and stuff like that.
Matt
00:32:54 – 00:33:07
So even in the space where we're talking about, like, look, I can only control this, we can still do the good pure, noble thing well in a kind and caring way and actually bring out about that influence, you know, more.
Aaron
00:33:07 – 00:33:07
Mhmm.
Matt
00:33:08 – 00:33:24
Okay. Back to business, I guess. So you you were laid off from PlanetScale and kind of gave you this free rein. And, for those who don't know, you would often talk during time at PlanetScale about, like, a certain cast of characters, you know. Mhmm.
Matt
00:33:24 – 00:33:33
And the most memorable cast of member of the cast of characters was editor Steve. You know? And editor Steve is this guy who you make these videos, and editor Steve just puts the
Aaron
00:33:33 – 00:33:34
puts the razz
Matt
00:33:34 – 00:33:34
on it.
Aaron
00:33:34 – 00:33:34
You know,
Matt
00:33:34 – 00:33:51
he makes it, you know, whatever. And now there's something going on there. So what was the process like when you and editor Steve both discovered you were no longer the, you know, the face and also the the whatever behind PlanetScale? Where did you go from there next day? You know, next oh, I think you went to a movie theater, actually.
Aaron
00:33:51 – 00:33:54
Oh, it's a Dune 2. Yeah. So let's could you talk
Matt
00:33:54 – 00:33:56
a little bit about, like, what that process was like?
Aaron
00:33:56 – 00:34:17
Yeah. For sure. So, yeah. Steve Steve and I worked together at PlanetScale, and we spent you know, he he is, like, it's funny because I like to give monikers and nicknames to people, especially, like, on YouTube. So I I was trying to broaden the reach, like, broaden the, the scope of the channel to include other people as a way to be, like, I'm not
Aaron
00:34:17 – 00:34:18
the c man
Aaron
00:34:18 – 00:34:28
Yeah. But, you know, and whatever. So the Steve Steve the editor was, like, my partner in crime, and we would talk on the phone all the time talking about ideas. And so, like, we we got along. We liked each other a whole lot.
Aaron
00:34:28 – 00:34:52
After we both got laid off, we both kinda we called each other and, like, dude, so what's gonna happen now? Yeah. And it was interesting because a lot of people, a lot of so, like, I put out this tweet and, Steve put out a tweet that he was like, hey, I got laid off too and I quote tweeted him. And so, like, we're we're kinda, like, doing this layoff thing together. And companies started reaching out and we're like, hey, we would love to hire you and Steve.
Aaron
00:34:53 – 00:34:55
Hey, we would love to bring Steve and you in together.
Aaron
00:34:55 – 00:34:55
And I
Aaron
00:34:55 – 00:35:03
was like, really? That's kinda awesome. So Steve and I took some joint interviews with companies. Uh-huh. It was like, well, let's just start the process together.
Matt
00:35:03 – 00:35:04
Together. Yeah.
Aaron
00:35:04 – 00:35:28
And through through that, I think we we both realized, like, we could go do it again. We could we could go play the same songs again at a different company, or we could go out together and try to do it on our own. Because I think between the 2 of us, there's there's some magic that is just not reproducible, independently. Like, I think I'm good on camera. I'm not I'm not Steve.
Aaron
00:35:28 – 00:35:46
Like, I cannot add the level of video quality production that Steve can. And so, Steve has really good idea. He's truly a producer and so now he's producer Steve. And so everything we do we work on together. I'm out front but that doesn't mean I'm doing more of the work.
Aaron
00:35:46 – 00:36:03
And so Yeah. We kinda talked about it and we're like, hey, we've got all these companies that wanna hire us. Let's see if we can go out on our own and just do this as, like, consulting slash, you know, video for hire. Yeah. And we actually had a few CEOs in the calls be like, hey.
Aaron
00:36:03 – 00:36:17
I I'm just gonna be upfront with you. We can't afford to hire you, but I think y'all should go out on your own and we'll be your first client. And we're like, really? So it's kinda it kinda, like, it became very obvious the week after we got laid off. We took all these calls.
Aaron
00:36:17 – 00:36:20
It became very, very clear what we should do next.
Matt
00:36:20 – 00:36:31
Yeah. So the was this your first time ever starting a business from scratch? I mean, I know you joined the 3 guys in the property tax thing, but, like, had you ever from LLC or from s corp from the very beginning?
Aaron
00:36:32 – 00:36:47
I had, you know, as we all do a little holding LLC for random consulting and stuff. And there was a period, in my in my early twenties where I was just full on freelancer, but never, like, I've never started, like, a proper business Yeah. Like this.
Aaron
00:36:47 – 00:36:48
But you have
Matt
00:36:48 – 00:36:51
at least have, like, you have put in the paperwork to start it Yes.
Aaron
00:36:51 – 00:36:51
And and
Matt
00:36:51 – 00:36:56
I'll see. Okay. So because I wonder if that, you know, that might be one of the big moments. But still, was this scary?
Aaron
00:36:57 – 00:37:11
Oh, yeah. It was scary. It was it was it was definitely scary. It was a, it was a weird mix of the best possible timing of my professional career and the worst possible timing in my family life. We've got 4 kids under 3.
Aaron
00:37:11 – 00:37:11
Well, I
Aaron
00:37:11 – 00:37:41
guess 2 of them are 3 now. So we have 4 kids, 3 and under. My wife who works harder than I do doesn't get paid for it. And so, like, I'm I'm the sole breadwinner here, and we're we're in a rent house because we we bought a house that's big enough for our new, you know, 4 4 kids. And so, like, we're paying these 2 housing costs and we we gotta move and it's like everything is the worst possible timing except this is there's never been a better time in my professional life to do this.
Aaron
00:37:41 – 00:38:09
And so it was definitely scary. I think, you know, we had I think 1 month of severance or something like that. And so there was a little bit of buffer, and we had, as a family, saved up a bunch of money just from, like, side stuff and, you know, having more money than we spend. And so, like, that helped a little bit, but then getting into the business and getting some big contracts landed pretty quickly has really, like, put my mind at ease.
Matt
00:38:10 – 00:38:28
I'd love to hear that. How much did you and your wife kind of toss back and forth this idea before you were able to sign off on it? Was it just an instant she's like, hey, you know what? I think this is a thing. Or did you all really have to go back and forth quite a bit on the risk of, like, taking a job versus, you know, versus starting your own thing?
Matt
00:38:29 – 00:38:31
Yeah. We we we talked about it quite a bit.
Aaron
00:38:31 – 00:38:42
I mean, she's just the back. I called her the day that I got laid, like, the moment I got laid off, I called her and she was like, it's gonna be fine. We'll figure it out. Like, yeah. That's what you want.
Aaron
00:38:42 – 00:38:44
Like, that's what you want in a teammate, man.
Matt
00:38:44 – 00:38:44
She believes
Aaron
00:38:44 – 00:38:44
in me, man.
Aaron
00:38:44 – 00:39:03
You don't want somebody dogging you on when you're down. Rich and nice. Fully supportive. And so when this idea started to, like, crystallize in my head, we we talked about it a lot. And I think that the thing that, like, the thing that tipped the scales was this is a very low risk test.
Aaron
00:39:04 – 00:39:18
Like, it could totally crash and burn. And then what do I do? I go back to Twitter and say, hey, I tried to live the American dream and it didn't work out. Will you hire me? And I get some percentage of the people that wanted to hire me the first time.
Aaron
00:39:18 – 00:39:19
I get some percentage of your
Matt
00:39:19 – 00:39:20
back. Yeah.
Aaron
00:39:20 – 00:39:34
It's not like I, you know, it's not like I went to some other company for 3 months and then quit, and now everybody's like, oh, what it what happens there? It's like, oh, no. I tried to make my dreams come true, and it didn't work. Okay? Why is that bad?
Matt
00:39:34 – 00:39:42
It's also not like you put 1,000,000 of dollars down in a 5 year lease with a restaurant, and now you're kind of, you know, burning through your personal savings and everything. Yeah.
Aaron
00:39:42 – 00:39:50
Yeah. That's good. I don't know who says it, but this is this is a one way door versus two way door. And I could just walk back through the door. I could just turn around and be like, whoops.
Aaron
00:39:50 – 00:39:56
Sorry, y'all. Would love a w 2. And there's somebody somebody in the world is gonna say, oh, okay. I'll hire you.
Matt
00:39:56 – 00:40:29
I I I hate that I keep quoting this man, but I love him so much that I have to do it. But when Adam Wethan first left Titan, he published a book while he still worked at Titan, and the book went so well, but he just said, I would kick myself if I didn't take this opportunity to see what it's like to go out on my own. If it fails, either Titan will take me back, probably not because I feel so bad for leaving them, whatever, or some other company will give me a job. He's like, I can get a job again, but I can't miss out on this opportunity to try this thing. And so hearing you and him both say that same thing is so compelling.
Matt
00:40:29 – 00:40:40
Mhmm. And I'm like, yeah. I already run a business. So it's it's not gonna make me go run another business, but it does just make it I don't know. Like, I feel like it makes it seem so much more doable to hear you talk about it.
Matt
00:40:40 – 00:40:47
Like, I'm just like, oh, well, what's the magic that made you all do it? It's like believing in yourself, you know, being willing to take a risk.
Aaron
00:40:47 – 00:41:03
That's exactly exactly correct. Yeah. I looked at it and thought the exact same thing that Adam thought. I looked at it and thought, if I don't do this now, I'm definitely going to look back on it and regret that. And that's an amazing realization to have in the moment.
Aaron
00:41:03 – 00:41:17
You don't always, like, it's not always that clear. But to know, like, to know in your head and your heart that if you don't do this thing, you're gonna wish you had, that makes that makes it, like, okay. We'll just do it scared. Like, yeah. It's still scary.
Aaron
00:41:17 – 00:41:20
We'll just do it scared though because this is I don't wanna miss this.
Matt
00:41:20 – 00:41:47
Yeah. And I I I know you already talked about it, but there's there's a big magic of having a partner who just says, we're gonna do this and we're gonna make it work and no matter what happens, like, I believe we can solve. Because then you're just like, what's the worst case scenario? The worst case scenario is something that feels like I couldn't handle it, but now I believe that we can handle whatever that worst case scenario is because we together can can hit and it's just like, man, that's that's an incredible incredibly empowering, partnership to have there.
Aaron
00:41:47 – 00:41:54
Yes. Yes. It's for us, the worst case scenario is not personal or family bankruptcy. We would stop. Right.
Aaron
00:41:54 – 00:42:09
I would stop well before then. So, the worst case scenario is embarrassment. And to have somebody on your team being like, hey, you can do this. I believe in you. Like the I would hate to be embarrassed publicly.
Aaron
00:42:09 – 00:42:30
I would really hate to be embarrassed in front of my wife and be like, hey, it didn't work. I'm so sorry. But to have her be from the beginning be like, you can do this. I believe in you. Just takes all of that pressure away to be like, this person is on my team and I'm not like I'm not like hiding things, like, oh, it's not working.
Aaron
00:42:30 – 00:42:40
I can't tell her because she's gonna dog me. No way. So, yeah, it's unbelievably, empowering to have somebody that's like, I got your back.
Matt
00:42:40 – 00:42:44
That's brilliant. I love this. Once again, I guess we're supposed to get back to business things, but this is this
Aaron
00:42:44 – 00:42:44
is the
Matt
00:42:44 – 00:43:03
part I wanna talk about anyway. So you have this company, TriHard Studios. You all are creating videos, and you're creating courses and stuff like that. And then and and that is the dream for a lot of us who like to create content just to be able to create stuff and helping people all the time. This is the business of Laravel podcast.
Matt
00:43:03 – 00:43:22
Right? And so one of the things I wanna talk about a little bit is is in what ways Laravel's involved in your current life. So I'm guessing that at some point, you built a course platform for delivering screencasting.com, which we didn't even mention and other things like that. Are you doing any coding in all these days other than in your videos?
Aaron
00:43:23 – 00:43:37
Yeah. So we built screencasting.com. Me and everybody's friend Jason Beggs built screencasting.com. Now Steve producer Steve is actually a a developer as well. So he's building out a Nux.
Aaron
00:43:37 – 00:43:45
Yeah. He's he's a Vue developer. So he's building out a Nuxt front end, and I'll build out the Laravel back end for high performance SQLite.
Aaron
00:43:46 – 00:43:46
Nice.
Aaron
00:43:46 – 00:44:00
And I still do I actually still contract with the property tax company. Really? More in like a yeah. More in like a architects kind of role, so I I still have my hands in that code base a little bit. So, yeah.
Aaron
00:44:00 – 00:44:14
That's that's a lot of you know, in my personal website's a a tinker Tinkertown for crazy Laravel ideas. And so, yeah, I still try to stay in it because I don't wanna, you know one, I love it, but I don't wanna atrophy either. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm definitely still in it.
Matt
00:44:15 – 00:44:42
Yeah. And you're one of the things I noticed is that in the midst of SQL like plans and, you know, database stuff, you're still putting out, hey. Here's what Laravel Octane is and stuff like that. So you're still making those videos. How do you see those videos playing a part of your overall strategy Is it because you're like, hey, I wanna make sure that I can make a Laravel course and keep a Laravel reputationist or, like, what as you're making stuff that's not targeted at Laravel developers, what's your ongoing relationship with Laravel community?
Aaron
00:44:42 – 00:45:01
Yeah. I have a belief that the Laravel community in the next 5 years is going to maybe double, maybe triple. Yeah. And I think there's gonna be a desire for a lot of like, what what are all these components? Like, what what's going on here?
Aaron
00:45:01 – 00:45:16
And so that's like the ruthless ruthlessly strategic part of me thinks, okay, there's gonna be a huge influx of Laravel developers. And to, like, carve out a corner of the Laravel YouTube ecosystem is gonna be pretty valuable.
Matt
00:45:17 – 00:45:17
Yeah.
Aaron
00:45:18 – 00:45:36
So I think that is, like, that's the nuts and bolts of it. The other side of it is I I I just I like it. I like I like I like doing Laravel content. I know Laravel really well. And so, it's a lot of fun for me to be able to just like kind of, kinda just like bebop.
Aaron
00:45:36 – 00:45:59
It's kinda more like jazz than it is, you know, than it is something very rigid. Because I can turn on the camera, and I just have this well of knowledge that I can pull from. It makes it so easy. Yeah. But, you know, Steve and I have talked about this a lot that for some reason, which I'm very grateful for but I don't like, I don't fully understand for some reason people just want more content from me, specifically.
Matt
00:45:59 – 00:45:59
Yeah.
Aaron
00:45:59 – 00:46:18
And so, the more content that I can put out that is, you know, of course still up to the try hard standards, the more content that I can put out the better. Yeah. And so, putting out Laravel content for some reason people that don't like Laravel still watch it. Yeah. And so, if I can just have more content out there that's better.
Aaron
00:46:18 – 00:46:38
Yeah. And so, that's kind of the thought is like, this is, it's very strange because you'll hear a lot of people, especially, SaaS people be like, personal brand doesn't matter. If you can't crack SEO or whatever, you're never gonna make it. And like, maybe true for maybe true for, you know, a a DocuSign SaaS. Right?
Matt
00:46:38 – 00:46:39
Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron
00:46:39 – 00:46:46
Yeah. This is not that business. This business is extremely personality driven. Yes. And so our top of funnel is me.
Aaron
00:46:46 – 00:46:56
And so the more that I'm out there, the more that people are like, wait. What's he do? Oh, he's got oh, that's oh, let me find and so the more that people can see me, the better it is for our bottom line.
Matt
00:46:57 – 00:47:27
I I hear that. And I it's very curious to me because a lot of people who were talking about kind of the longevity of a business, they're they're like, you want to take the influential front person out of the daily operation because eventually you wanna get to the point where they can step away. But they're saying that very often because the company only exists because of that influential front person being able to be that. And you've made a successful company over 5 or 10 years, and eventually that person wants to be able step away. And like you were saying with PlanetScale, you know, it's gonna be a different degree with your own company.
Matt
00:47:27 – 00:47:42
But I could imagine 10 years down the road, you know, you get to point where TriHard Studios has a roster of people. And it's not just that, oh my god. We love Aaron, and Steve's a great producer and editor. But, oh my god, they put out so much good content across all these people. And then Aaron can be less and less of the videos.
Matt
00:47:42 – 00:47:45
But you're on month 2 or 3 right now.
Aaron
00:47:45 – 00:47:45
Like, that's
Matt
00:47:45 – 00:48:08
not Yeah. That's not the story. And that's what I wanted to end on is you the name of your studio comes from a conversation you've been having with the Internet about this phase in your life that I think relates the fact that it's not a bad thing for you to be the public face. Can you talk a little bit about TryHard Studios, where that comes from, and what, you know, what that reflects and how that's maybe a little different from what people often talk about the Internet today.
Aaron
00:48:08 – 00:48:18
Yeah. Absolutely. So the name is TryHard Studios, and it's called that because Maximum Effort Studios was already taken by Ryan Reynolds. And I didn't I didn't wanna get into that with him.
Matt
00:48:18 – 00:48:19
Got it.
Aaron
00:48:19 – 00:48:44
But it it I know. It it really is like, I am at this I am at this phase of my life and have been for maybe, you know, 3 or 4 years where I kinda think that like, these are this this is the era in which I'm going to try as hard as I possibly can. And that, like, people people hear that and they get hustle bro, like, twinges. Right. Like, uh-oh, what's about to happen?
Aaron
00:48:44 – 00:49:25
And the way that I, like, the way that I kind of, like, look at that and differentiate that is, this is my this is my era of maximum effort because I think that I am currently on a wave and I don't want it to to get I I don't want it to get over me. Right? I don't want it to go past me. And so, I'm doing my best to capitalize on this moment. And I think I my point of view is that, like, we are I think we are extremely capable, but we have this fear of, like, being seen to try hard.
Aaron
00:49:25 – 00:49:41
Like it is there's there's there's this like fear of like, if I'm seen as someone who tries really hard, then I'm not like a I'm not like a natural talent. Right? I'm not like, oh, this is also easy. I don't even think about it.
Matt
00:49:41 – 00:49:42
Yeah.
Aaron
00:49:42 – 00:49:51
And there might be people for whom everything is so easy that they don't have to think about it. But you look at somebody like Wes Boss or Adam Wathan, I guarantee you they're trying pretty hard.
Matt
00:49:51 – 00:49:52
Yeah.
Aaron
00:49:52 – 00:50:20
It's just that it's just that it looks like from the outside, it looks pretty natural and like everything they do turns to gold. But it's like, Yeah. Man, I bet they try super hard. And that's kinda how I feel is like between me and Steve, we have this desire to put in more effort and to and to care about more things, than maybe the average person would. And it's all these little things, you know, let's take the the, like the context of a video.
Aaron
00:50:20 – 00:50:33
So we're making a video. There's like 10, 20 little things that don't matter that we're gonna go ahead and do. Then you watch the video and you're like, I don't know, but it was really good. Like, I can't I can't put my finger I can't put my finger on anything. Yeah.
Aaron
00:50:33 – 00:51:05
But like it just feels right, Doesn't it? Yeah. And that's kinda, like, my whole my whole, my whole, shtick is basically, like, I don't wanna reach the end of, like, my career, much less my life, and look back and think, boy, you were just kinda scared to, like you're kinda scared to to try, or you're trying kinda scared to put yourself out there. And now that it's all over, you realize how little anyone else's opinion mattered and Yeah. You're like, shoot.
Aaron
00:51:05 – 00:51:28
I wish I would have known that when I was 35 and not 65. And so that's kinda my that's kinda like my guiding principle is I'm gonna try as hard as I can. I'm gonna put myself out there as much as I can and we're we're gonna see what happens because I don't wanna reach the end and think, boy, your life could have been a lot different if you weren't so scared. And so that's, like, oh, that's heavy. I can't live with that.
Matt
00:51:29 – 00:51:58
So I thought this was the last thing, but I have to do a follow-up on that. One of the things that I get asked a lot and I'm confident that you do because I've had friends who have introduced to your content ask me the same question about you is where do you make time for family? Where do you make time for personal care? Where do you you know, they're like, if you're doing so many things, if you're doing a course and this and that and the other, like, are you just completely miserable at home and your spouse never sees you and your kids never see you? Or are you is there a way to try really hard and really still have strong boundaries?
Matt
00:51:58 – 00:51:59
So what does that look like for you?
Aaron
00:51:59 – 00:52:06
Yeah. Absolutely. There is. So I'll tell you what I did this week because it's like, oh, in the abstract, no. I'll tell you what I did this week.
Aaron
00:52:07 – 00:52:17
So it's it's it's busy season. We're working on this course. Right? We got this SQLite course, and I gotta I gotta do a bunch of stuff. I now work outside of the house, so I do leave the house.
Aaron
00:52:17 – 00:52:43
So, every morning, I get the older 2 kids up. We have 2 3 year olds and 2 6 month olds. I get the older kids up, you know, get them out of bed, change diapers, make breakfast, sit with them at breakfast, do all this stuff with the kids until about 8:30, 8:45, and then I leave the house. Come up here, work as hard as I can until 5 to 6 depending on if the kids naps. Because if they didn't nap, they're gonna go to bed early.
Aaron
00:52:43 – 00:52:49
Right? So between 5 and 6, and then I leave. I go home. I go home and I'm I'm dad. I do dinner.
Aaron
00:52:50 – 00:53:00
I do let's go jump on the bed. Let's wrestle and then I put the older kids to bed. You know, sing songs, put on pajamas, all that stuff. I don't miss that. Yeah.
Aaron
00:53:00 – 00:53:13
I don't care what Steve wants. I don't care who is in my DMs. I just don't miss that. And so every single day, breakfast and dinner, I'm with the I'm with the kids. Yeah.
Aaron
00:53:13 – 00:53:26
Then there are times this week where I've come back to the office. It's 7 it's 7 o'clock. The kids are down. Everybody's happy. I'll sit and eat dinner real quick, and then I come back to the office.
Aaron
00:53:26 – 00:53:44
And that is based on or or, that that is after having conversations with my wife saying like, hey. This is a really busy time for me. I would like to go back to the office some nights and keep working. Let's talk about that. And she's like, that sounds great.
Aaron
00:53:44 – 00:53:54
I've got a lot of stuff to do to get ready for the move, or I wanna watch, what was she watching last night? I wanna watch Mindy Project by myself. And it's like, great. Okay. Let's talk about that.
Aaron
00:53:54 – 00:54:07
So there are definitely ways to keep boundaries and I have I have, non negotiables. I'm home for dinner. I'm up at breakfast. Those are my non negotiables. The things that I lose, I don't watch a lot of TV right now.
Aaron
00:54:07 – 00:54:19
I don't care about sports and so that helps. So I'm not watching sports. I don't play video games. And like, I am happy. I think people hear that and they're, like, oh, I would hate to miss, you know, sports and video games.
Aaron
00:54:19 – 00:54:23
I'm, like, that's fine. That's totally fine.
Matt
00:54:23 – 00:54:23
Turns out.
Aaron
00:54:23 – 00:54:46
The thing that I want to do most in my life outside of, you know, be a good dad and a husband. The thing that I want to do most is have this success successful business. And so, I'm okay not watching TV and playing video games. And I don't feel like I'm missing out. I feel like I'm doing the thing that I've always dreamed of doing and it makes me happy.
Aaron
00:54:46 – 00:55:09
And so, I am not I am rarely prescriptive. I don't tell people what to do or I try not to. I am descriptive telling people what I do and also encouraging people to consider. I want to encourage people to consider what do you want out of your life and are there things that you don't care about that you can give up? Don't give don't give up things you care about.
Aaron
00:55:09 – 00:55:20
Give up things you don't care about to get something you care about. It's like Yep. That's the easiest trade off in the world. So that's kinda how I have my boundaries. There are things I do not miss, and that that'll never change.
Matt
00:55:20 – 00:55:46
I love that. That's brilliant. And it's my answer is not exactly the same because I had done that at one point. Now because of my custody situation with my kids, it's sort of like when the kids are there, I'm usually, you know, minimize meetings, spend quality time with the kids, get some work done at the end of the night, and then when the kids aren't here, that's when I kind of, like, do the more of the hustle mode. But I'm working on a course right now, and that's not a part of my 9 to 5.
Matt
00:55:46 – 00:55:57
And so my kids know that after they go to bed, I work on the course for several hours. And sometimes the next morning, I'm a little tired. And my son's, like, yeah, you're working on the course. This morning, I was very tired when I, you know, woke him up. And he's, like, you're working on the course?
Matt
00:55:57 – 00:56:14
I'm, like, yeah. And just, like, honestly, for me, first of all, I'm still present for the kids. But second of all Mhmm. It's kinda fun. And I know your kids may not be this age yet, but for the kids to see what that looks like and to see work and to see boundaries and to see the ways you prioritize them and, you know, like, it turns out they can survive a lot of that.
Matt
00:56:14 – 00:56:21
They can understand a lot of that. And that also, like you said, a supportive partner can be understanding and flexible and might sometimes want to watch her freaking TV show
Aaron
00:56:21 – 00:56:21
or a
Aaron
00:56:21 – 00:56:22
freaking TV show without
Matt
00:56:22 – 00:56:23
your little you know? Yeah. We're
Aaron
00:56:24 – 00:56:44
we both love that. I think I'm willing I'm willing, and it sounds like this is what you're describing, I'm willing to sacrifice a lot of my own comfort, enjoyment, pleasure, whatever. I am very unwilling to sacrifice on someone else's behalf. Yes. I am not willing to sacrifice, my kids' time with their dad.
Aaron
00:56:44 – 00:56:58
I I don't wanna make that choice for them. I'm not willing to to sacrifice my time with my wife without her without us talking about it. But my own sleep, my own watching of of, you know, movies Yeah. Okay. That's fine.
Aaron
00:56:58 – 00:57:05
Yeah. So I think that's a big difference. It's like, are you sacrificing things on behalf of other people that they don't want sacrificed?
Matt
00:57:06 – 00:57:13
Yeah. Yeah. That's a great line. I love that. God, I always say this to people, but I I have 2 more hours of conversation in me.
Matt
00:57:13 – 00:57:39
We're already 10 minutes past when I'm trying to cut it. So, obviously, you're gonna come back to the podcast, in many different reasons, but one of them is I wanna talk to you in 2 years. Hopefully, this is still going, and I wanna see how the try hard work and, you know, and how to try hard but also the try hard area. And and and I wanna know, like, are you does is the try hard area slowing down and the maximum effort area slowing down? And have you found the ability to have other people, you know, be faces so that you're able to step back a little bit?
Matt
00:57:39 – 00:58:03
And do you still get to program is one of the big questions I wanna ask you in 2 years. But, you know, we're not there yet, but I'm very curious. So because we are supposed to wrap right now, I gotta ask you one last thing, which is is there anything that you think would have been great for us to talk about today that we get didn't get a chance to cover that just relates to either any of the stories you told or just the general idea of talking to people who are either using Laravel to build a business or building a business in the Laravel ecosystem?
Aaron
00:58:06 – 00:58:39
I don't nothing comes to mind except my favorite hobby horse of, like, if you're trying if you're trying to like grow your, your brand, whether that's personal or business, the number one thing you can do is, is put yourself out there more. Mhmm. And I think beyond, I think beyond the fear of embarrassment, there's a lot of what you're looking for. The thing that the thing that you want is on the other side of like being willing to be cringe. And it's like,
Matt
00:58:39 – 00:58:40
I love that.
Aaron
00:58:40 – 00:58:43
That that that is my advice for everyone.
Matt
00:58:43 – 00:59:08
And I do wanna say that if anybody is interested in learning more about that, go read Aaron's blog posts and his Twitter and follow him in all the spaces because these are things that you say on a regular pace basis. And you Yes. You've covered in more depth there. So I won't I as much as I wanna talk about it more now, go go to read everything he's ever done and you will find more of those messages and more of that encouragement. So well, Aaron, you are, the darling of the Internet for a good reason.
Matt
00:59:08 – 00:59:22
You're a delightful human being. I really appreciate you coming on here. And I really appreciate the energy and the kindness and the care and the pure pureness and nobility that you're bringing to the whole world that I'm in. So thanks for hanging out today. I really appreciate you.
Aaron
00:59:22 – 00:59:23
Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Matt
00:59:23 – 00:59:27
Okay. And to the rest of you, thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.
Me

Thanks for reading! My name is Aaron and I write, make videos , and generally try really hard .

If you ever have any questions or want to chat, I'm always on Twitter.

You can find me on YouTube on my personal channel or the Try Hard Studios channel.

If you love podcasts, I got you covered. You can listen to me on Mostly Technical .