Aaron Francis

Ian & Aaron are joined this week by Dax & Adam Elmore to discuss the Laravel vs. JavaScript discourse, selling coffee over the command line, and a lot more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more.

Watch on YouTube →

Transcript

Ian

00:00:00 – 00:00:06

Alright. Hello, everybody. Man, we have ultra special guests. Ultra special guests this week.

Aaron

00:00:06 – 00:00:09

There's there's never been this many people on the show before.

Adam

00:00:09 – 00:00:10

There's so many people.

Ian

00:00:10 – 00:00:24

The party. We got Dax and Adam, from how about tomorrow podcast and all their other various ventures. We're gonna talk to them about all kinds of stuff. I'm sure Laravel versus JavaScript, coffee.

Dax

00:00:25 – 00:00:25

Oh, man.

Aaron

00:00:26 – 00:00:31

What a what a weekend. Lots to come. Big weekend on Twitter. I know.

Dax

00:00:31 – 00:00:32

Great timing

Aaron

00:00:32 – 00:00:37

for this. Let's just start. I don't you guys have backgrounds. You got into computers at some point. Nobody cares about that.

Dax

00:00:37 – 00:00:39

Yeah. Let's just start.

Ian

00:00:39 – 00:00:43

I mean Jump in. Oh, Oh, yeah. So nobody knows who you guys are. Yeah.

Aaron

00:00:45 – 00:00:55

So welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. Super exciting. We do wanna talk about Laravel JavaScript. Wanna talk about your you're selling coffee at a terminal.

Aaron

00:00:55 – 00:00:59

Adam's working on a course. Nobody knows what SST is. It's gonna be

Ian

00:00:59 – 00:01:02

SST is. Yes. I have no idea.

Dax

00:01:02 – 00:01:03

Yes. We do.

Ian

00:01:03 – 00:01:13

And and let me tell you. This is the funniest thing. I love Dax's Twitter persona. Okay? And I have actively not figured out what the fuck he's doing.

Ian

00:01:13 – 00:01:28

Like, I don't know what SST is. Like, I don't know. I don't really understand if you work there, doc, so you own it, or even how it makes money. Like, I don't wanna know anything about it because I just loved your vibe. And I'm like, if I know too much, it's gonna mess it up.

Ian

00:01:28 – 00:01:35

Like, I don't wanna know anything about it. It's some JavaScript y AWS stuff. Good. I just leave it there. So I'll probably learn more today.

Ian

00:01:35 – 00:01:36

But

Dax

00:01:36 – 00:01:55

It's it's funny because that's, I hear I hear this so much. It's like, I think our marketing is really good in terms of people, like, hearing the literal name, but it just doesn't go further than that. Like Nope. Everyone's like, I've heard of this, and I think I'm supposed to say it's good, but, like, I don't know what it is or what the point is or I'm never looking into it. So it's very common situation.

Ian

00:01:56 – 00:02:02

It seems it ties to the job. As soon as I see like next JS, I just like, I just, you know, blackout and I just like, don't go bother than that.

Dax

00:02:02 – 00:02:03

So, Yeah. Me too.

Aaron

00:02:03 – 00:02:03

But

Ian

00:02:03 – 00:02:09

all your code snippets are awesome. So I'm like, oh, man. Look at it. It's like he's deploying AWS stuff with, like, one line of code. This is amazing.

Ian

00:02:10 – 00:02:10

I should figure

Aaron

00:02:10 – 00:02:12

that out. Cool. I I should

Dax

00:02:12 – 00:02:12

investigate, but

Aaron

00:02:12 – 00:02:13

I'm not I'm not going to.

Ian

00:02:13 – 00:02:16

If I'd not like to because I don't wanna ruin the vibe.

Dax

00:02:18 – 00:02:18

Yeah.

Aaron

00:02:18 – 00:02:25

I also have this question. SST, they you you work there. Right? They pay you. This is your job.

Aaron

00:02:25 – 00:02:29

It's not just like 3 friends on a working on a open source thing. Right?

Dax

00:02:30 – 00:02:49

Yeah. It's funny because, I I guess yeah. Ultimately, like, we are 3 friends working on a thing, and I guess, we come off a certain way. But, people are always surprised to know that we're a YC company. We are venture funded, like,

Adam

00:02:49 – 00:02:49

Didn't know that.

Dax

00:02:49 – 00:03:02

You know, by serious VCs. We're a very serious business, you know, with grown up serious stuff like money and things. But as a different client yeah.

Adam

00:03:02 – 00:03:07

He's right now. Overcompensated a little bit. You just, like, went way too hard. No. It's serious.

Adam

00:03:07 – 00:03:08

It's very serious.

Dax

00:03:08 – 00:03:10

No. It's really, Lex. It's definitely real.

Aaron

00:03:10 – 00:03:12

You don't have to posture. I'm sorry. We know it is. We know it

Dax

00:03:12 – 00:03:32

is for sure. No. I mean, I only say that to contrast with, this is the type of company we wanted to build, you know, even though it's it is those things, like, we just wanna say 3 friends having fun. That's why I like, you know, our our tone is is what it is.

Ian

00:03:34 – 00:03:37

Yeah. That's awesome. I love the cofounder thing.

Aaron

00:03:37 – 00:03:43

You were YC backed. I did not know you were venture backed. That is that is very much news to me. So Yeah.

Ian

00:03:43 – 00:03:50

I didn't know the venture backed part. I didn't know YC, but I didn't know the venture backed. Oh, yeah. I I assumed it, but I I figured the money was coming in somewhere somehow.

Dax

00:03:51 – 00:04:01

I had a tweet a while ago where whenever people find out that we're a YC company, they're always like, really? You guys? Like, everyone's so surprised. And I'm like, at some point, I just start being offended, I think.

Ian

00:04:02 – 00:04:09

We're breaking the mold here, you know? Otherwise, you guys are a certain certain style, you know, guys have a little different tack to it.

Dax

00:04:09 – 00:04:24

Yeah. Which is good. And in terms of money, the company's history is a little weird. So I joined the team 3 years ago, but it had been around a little bit before then, with a completely different product. And that product still makes money to this day.

Dax

00:04:24 – 00:04:46

It's just we haven't like touched it in several years. Reason being is, just the space that's in, we saw, like, a ceiling with it, so we needed to pivot to something else. And it's still related. Like, the other tool, was a CI tool for companies in the serverless space. It just oriented around a certain framework that wasn't really growing.

Dax

00:04:46 – 00:04:47

So we have to just do our own.

Adam

00:04:48 – 00:04:51

That's such a nice way of putting that. Wasn't really growing.

Dax

00:04:51 – 00:04:51

Yeah.

Aaron

00:04:51 – 00:04:54

I don't know. What's the rep who are we talking about here?

Dax

00:04:54 – 00:04:56

Serverless framework. I don't know if you guys Serverless framework.

Aaron

00:04:56 – 00:04:58

I remember them. Yep.

Dax

00:04:58 – 00:05:14

They are the most confusing framework ever because they own serverless.com. So when I was first, like, trying to learn, okay, what the hell is serverless? I kept landing on serverless.com and I was like, Is this like the concept or is this like a specific framework? So they just had great domain position for years.

Ian

00:05:14 – 00:05:17

Great domain. There's nothing better than a great domain. It's like

Aaron

00:05:18 – 00:05:18

Oh, man.

Ian

00:05:18 – 00:05:20

That's top of my list.

Dax

00:05:20 – 00:05:45

Yeah. So, they were they actually, I would say made it as a framework. They grew to a pretty large, like, usage base enough so that our previous product could make money just serving people in that ecosystem. But they just kind of went sideways after a certain point. And if they're not, if they're not hyper growing, we won't either.

Dax

00:05:45 – 00:06:06

So that's why eventually we said, okay, we need to do our own framework. There needs to be an angle for us to like, you can't just decide to start a framework, you need some kind of hook. So eventually found that and we started our own thing and that's what we've been working on for the past 3 years. And our new products are oriented around our own framework and it's growing that way. Cool.

Dax

00:06:06 – 00:06:07

Ian

00:06:07 – 00:06:08

you guys have a sample product?

Dax

00:06:09 – 00:06:10

Sorry?

Ian

00:06:10 – 00:06:12

Like, is there a product for sale yet or not yet?

Dax

00:06:13 – 00:06:35

Yeah. So, so the new the new framework we started 3 years ago, we're on like it's just been a lot of exploration and figuring out like what exactly we should do. The newest version of it, which we're calling Ion, is like, that's like our, like, we don't have any better ideas now. We've kind of went through the years, made our mistakes, figured out exactly what we need to do. And this is like our really like our final bet.

Dax

00:06:37 – 00:06:37

And it

Dax

00:06:37 – 00:06:59

kind of fixed all the problems we had in the past couple of years. We do have another product, that's the console, which is an optional thing that people using their framework, can use alongside once they're in production. It's pretty small surface area wise, so there's a lot more that we need to do for it. We're actually working a lot on it this week and the next week, but it's just a classic open source situation. You just need to build 2 really good products.

Dax

00:06:59 – 00:07:05

1, the open source one and one that works with it. So Yep. It's a lot of work.

Ian

00:07:05 – 00:07:08

It's a work. Yeah. Yeah. But people work.

Dax

00:07:08 – 00:07:10

Fun of people. It's great.

Ian

00:07:10 – 00:07:11

Yeah. A lot of that.

Adam

00:07:11 – 00:07:13

That part's going on. A lot of people on Twitter.

Dax

00:07:13 – 00:07:33

That part's still great. You're Christian on on that side. Yeah. People love it. Yesterday, I sent my team the screen screenshots because, I had some tweet where I used the word idiots in my in the tweet and someone was like quote, tweeted it being like, oh, like, someone was upset.

Dax

00:07:33 – 00:07:39

It seemed seemingly upset by it. And then they also replied to me and I just replied to them with the word idiot without saying anything else.

Ian

00:07:39 – 00:07:40

Oh, gosh.

Dax

00:07:41 – 00:07:48

And then they followed me. So here's the thing. The people want this is what I've learned. No. This this is what they want.

Ian

00:07:49 – 00:07:52

I love having good Aaron on the same podcast here. This is, like

Aaron

00:07:53 – 00:07:53

Can we

Ian

00:07:53 – 00:07:54

The yin and the yang.

Aaron

00:07:55 – 00:08:01

Can we talk about the time where Dax was the meanest person in the world to me specifically?

Dax

00:08:01 – 00:08:02

Dax, do

Aaron

00:08:02 – 00:08:02

you remember

Dax

00:08:02 – 00:08:04

this? Wait. What?

Aaron

00:08:04 – 00:08:05

Oh, yeah.

Dax

00:08:05 – 00:08:06

This is a good one.

Aaron

00:08:06 – 00:08:06

This is

Ian

00:08:06 – 00:08:08

No way he remembers this.

Aaron

00:08:08 – 00:08:16

Of course, he does. This was one of his best. This was thermonuclear destruction on Twitter. I had just gotten laid off. Just gotten laid off.

Ian

00:08:16 – 00:08:17

That's not even that long ago.

Aaron

00:08:17 – 00:08:19

It's not even that long ago.

Dax

00:08:19 – 00:08:20

It's not even that long ago.

Aaron

00:08:20 – 00:08:34

I got a 1000000 kids. I got, like, 4 diseases now. I just got laid off. And I'm I'm seeing I'm, you know, hanging out on Twitter, unemployed, trying to, like, you know, scrounge up some food in the street for my family, and I'm like, alright. Dax has a tweet.

Aaron

00:08:34 – 00:08:49

I'm gonna reply, and I'm gonna be snarky. Dax says something like, oh, we're working on something that nobody knows about. If you beg me, I'll release it tomorrow, or I'll release it today or something like that. And I just responded and said, no. I'm good.

Aaron

00:08:49 – 00:09:10

I'll wait. Dax responds and says, oh, I'm sure you're tired of begging people to hire you at this point. And just, like, from outer space, nuclear warhead, everybody's like, woah, dude. I think I think Jay responded with the ref giving a red card with somebody else. Yeah.

Aaron

00:09:10 – 00:09:16

It was just like, oh, guy gotta log off, man. That was brutal.

Dax

00:09:17 – 00:09:33

I think at some point, you know, you everyone has intrusive thoughts that enter their head. They're like, you're like staying at grocery store and you're like, what if I just smack the person in front of me on the head or something? That started happening to me with words. And then at some point, I was like, I just have to say it. So now I wanna get into just a thought.

Dax

00:09:33 – 00:09:35

I just have to I just have to do it. And there's no You

Ian

00:09:35 – 00:09:36

got that.

Dax

00:09:36 – 00:09:40

I have no control anymore. So I'm sorry for the capital.

Aaron

00:09:40 – 00:09:43

Yeah. I can't cosign that strategy, but I'm happy it's working.

Dax

00:09:43 – 00:09:49

It's not a strategy. It's just, it's just like a maybe a disease or something. Disorder. The world

Ian

00:09:49 – 00:09:52

needs all things, you know. Gotta cover all the bases.

Aaron

00:09:52 – 00:09:58

I feel I feel like Adam is waffling on what he wants his online persona to be. What's the story, Adam?

Adam

00:09:58 – 00:10:04

I think my default is to be an Aaron, but I become whoever I hang out with. And I hang out with Dax

Dax

00:10:04 – 00:10:04

a lot.

Adam

00:10:04 – 00:10:06

And I think that's pulling

Dax

00:10:06 – 00:10:07

me you can blame me?

Adam

00:10:07 – 00:10:11

It's pulling me towards this kind of, like, hateful, spiteful person. Duh.

Dax

00:10:11 – 00:10:14

I don't love it. That. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Dax

00:10:14 – 00:10:16

And I'm a Midwestern, though, so I don't know.

Dax

00:10:16 – 00:10:16

I don't know.

Adam

00:10:16 – 00:10:24

Like actually that. No. I think Dax is we've talked about this a lot. It's like the East Coast versus West Coast thing. Like, East

Ian

00:10:24 – 00:10:25

Coast is going on with

Adam

00:10:25 – 00:10:27

that. Yeah. He's actually more tough.

Dax

00:10:27 – 00:10:27

Going on here.

Adam

00:10:27 – 00:10:28

Yeah. Yeah.

Ian

00:10:28 – 00:10:33

Yeah. This is his way of being kind and polite. Like, I get it. This is, yeah, it's the East Coast.

Aaron

00:10:33 – 00:10:39

Just just another reason why I don't like New York City because people think being mean is being nice. It makes no sense to me.

Adam

00:10:39 – 00:10:41

I don't like New York either. I'm T.

Ian

00:10:41 – 00:10:42

V. I. Thinking. Aww. Okay.

Ian

00:10:42 – 00:10:43

Yeah. That's what it does.

Dax

00:10:43 – 00:10:49

I I always see people people talking online about you 2 fighting about New York. What's the what's the deal with that?

Aaron

00:10:50 – 00:10:54

Objectively, New York is terrible, and Ian loves it. That's basically

Dax

00:10:55 – 00:10:58

I'm assuming that he's, like, been to Times Square, and then that's it.

Ian

00:10:58 – 00:10:59

Exactly. Exactly.

Aaron

00:10:59 – 00:11:00

No. I went I

Ian

00:11:00 – 00:11:04

went to Times Square, and he's like, there was a naked guy there, and it was

Adam

00:11:04 – 00:11:05

dirty. Listen.

Ian

00:11:05 – 00:11:13

It's like, I'm a I I ate out a Speros and a Burger King, and the food is terrible. Like, that's the whole analysis he's giving me.

Aaron

00:11:13 – 00:11:26

First of all, naked is fine. Naked and pooping is worse. And it wasn't it wasn't a sparrow. It was a Chipotle at the bottom of the Empire State Building. And I took it back to my room and ate it in the hotel.

Dax

00:11:26 – 00:11:28

Oh, okay. No. We got

Aaron

00:11:28 – 00:11:29

it we got it all.

Dax

00:11:29 – 00:11:31

Ian, do you live in New York?

Ian

00:11:31 – 00:11:33

I live, up up an hour north of New York.

Aaron

00:11:33 – 00:11:35

Suburbs. She lives in the suburbs.

Dax

00:11:35 – 00:11:35

I live

Ian

00:11:35 – 00:11:36

in the suburbs. Yes.

Dax

00:11:36 – 00:11:46

Yeah. That's true. Well, we have to all go and fix Aaron's and, I think, Adam's perspective on it. There's there's just no way that someone could truly hate New York. It just feels impossible.

Ian

00:11:47 – 00:11:47

No. There's no

Adam

00:11:47 – 00:11:53

way you could actually enjoy New York. I think people cope with New York. They tolerate it. It's just everybody has a different tolerance.

Dax

00:11:54 – 00:11:54

There's there's

Adam

00:11:54 – 00:11:59

no way you can my soul hates New York so much, and I've been there, like, a dozen times. So it's not like

Aaron

00:11:59 – 00:12:00

a vindication.

Adam

00:12:01 – 00:12:05

I just can't imagine that other human beings actually enjoy it. That's how I feel about that.

Ian

00:12:05 – 00:12:14

Place. It's the best place. I also just feel like your business will be more successful if you're in New York. Like, I wish I'd moved to New York City. I feel like I would be even more successful just living there.

Ian

00:12:14 – 00:12:19

You got the energy of the city, all the people, the business. Yeah. But you didn't

Aaron

00:12:19 – 00:12:26

you didn't move there because you know that you know that the the cost is too high, Ian. The emotional cost is too high.

Ian

00:12:26 – 00:12:27

The actual cost is too high.

Aaron

00:12:27 – 00:12:28

Then the actual cost.

Dax

00:12:29 – 00:12:32

I lived in the city for 11 or 12 years.

Ian

00:12:32 – 00:12:32

Okay.

Dax

00:12:32 – 00:12:46

Pretty much my entire adult life. It's like I just keep moving to places that people hate. But again, it's just because they only go to the Times Square or the Times Square equivalent. I'm convinced. By the way, I know I know that New York is dirty.

Dax

00:12:46 – 00:12:53

The entire time I lived there though, I I just was blind to it. I didn't I was just everyone's like, it's so dirty. I just

Adam

00:12:53 – 00:12:53

sure. I just

Dax

00:12:53 – 00:12:54

did not see it at all.

Ian

00:12:54 – 00:13:06

Exactly. It's not that dirty. Unthink City scale, those other big cities, way dirtier than New York, way dirtier. And for much like the percentage of New York, that's like either bad or dirty or whatever is much smaller than other cities. It's like every other city you go to.

Ian

00:13:06 – 00:13:20

It's like, okay, you got 2 blocks where, like, it's nice and a little two block zone, and everything else is terrible. New York City, it's like all Manhattan is good, and big chunks of the outer boroughs are good. And, like, it's good. Great.

Adam

00:13:21 – 00:13:25

Did you know, Ian, there are other places in the world where it's 70 degrees in the evening. Did you know that?

Aaron

00:13:25 – 00:13:27

I don't know if you know that. Adam.

Ian

00:13:27 – 00:13:29

Trust me. I do know that. That's like

Adam

00:13:29 – 00:13:31

and you don't have to live in New York. Yep.

Ian

00:13:31 – 00:13:40

As I get older, I'm like, I gotta get out of New York. Like, once the kids are out, I'm like, just New York state. Like, just the weather wise, I'm just done with the weather. You know? Like, I just wanna be warm all the time.

Ian

00:13:40 – 00:13:47

Like, I am getting to that point. Like, I used to like the 4 seasons and all that stuff, but it's wearing on me. I'm like, man, oh, well If you wanna

Aaron

00:13:47 – 00:13:50

if you wanna be warm all the time, I've got just the spot

Dax

00:13:50 – 00:13:50

for you.

Dax

00:13:50 – 00:13:52

I might have to get that. That's great.

Aaron

00:13:52 – 00:13:53

Yeah. Yeah. Dallas.

Ian

00:13:54 – 00:14:02

I just discovered Miami last year. I'd never been really to, like, into Miami, and I wasn't sure what I'd think about it, but I went. It was it was awesome. It was great. We had a great time.

Ian

00:14:02 – 00:14:07

It was it was good stuff. I only spent 3 days there, but I gotta get down there again.

Dax

00:14:07 – 00:14:23

You know, someone showed someone showed me a trick the other day where if you're familiar with the city and you ask chatJPT, and you're going to a new city, you ask it like, oh, what's the equivalent neighborhood to, like, the one you're familiar with? It does, like, a fantastic job. It, like, it can it can, like, describe another city

Dax

00:14:23 – 00:14:23

in terms

Dax

00:14:23 – 00:14:25

of neighborhoods you're familiar with. And it works perfectly.

Ian

00:14:26 – 00:14:31

Gbt coming through again. That's a great trick.

Dax

00:14:31 – 00:14:32

All right.

Ian

00:14:32 – 00:14:44

So let's cover, Adam. We should cover a little bit about what you're doing before we go dive into the controversy of the day. But I was playing around with your tool. It's not I think your main tool is the stat muse, right? Is that kind of your main day job?

Adam

00:14:44 – 00:14:49

Yeah. Yeah. These days, that's my day job. So I was there. We started like 10 years ago.

Adam

00:14:49 – 00:14:53

I was there for, like, 5 years and gone for 3. I've been back for a couple.

Ian

00:14:53 – 00:14:54

Oh, wow.

Adam

00:14:54 – 00:14:56

So, yeah, it's my day job right now.

Ian

00:14:56 – 00:15:22

So just to describe this to people, it's like, it's like well, I was looking at more on the sports stats end, but it seems like Yeah. It does other things as well, potentially. But, anyway, so I didn't realize it was that old, though, because I thought thought it was, like, an AI thing. I'm, like, just type it in, like, who had the most home runs in baseball before 1945, and it's like Babe Ruth. And, like so I just figured it's like, you know, it's a cool little they're doing some AI stuff and turning into queries, but you were you were doing that before.

Adam

00:15:22 – 00:15:25

Yeah. No. We do it, like, the very brute force way. I mean, like, it's not

Ian

00:15:25 – 00:15:26

parsing it out.

Adam

00:15:26 – 00:15:28

It's not LLM. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron

00:15:28 – 00:15:34

You just get a Slack message, and you gotta go look up the ads. The human Shoot. Babe Ruth, go look it up.

Ian

00:15:34 – 00:15:38

Not AWS. What was that? AWS Mechanical Turk. You know?

Dax

00:15:38 – 00:15:39

Yeah. Yeah.

Ian

00:15:41 – 00:15:44

Yeah. Wow. That's really cool. That does a great job.

Adam

00:15:44 – 00:15:54

Yeah. No. We, that's how we start. We started just like as it's just giving you, like, tables and charts for sports questions. Now we do have a finance thing.

Adam

00:15:55 – 00:16:08

Sports is much bigger for us. Like we really hit kind of a nerve in the NBA community. Now I think we have we have all of the North American sports. We just did, European soccer. So I don't know if you know anything about Premier League, but we've got Premier League now.

Ian

00:16:08 – 00:16:09

So that's great.

Adam

00:16:09 – 00:16:11

That's big. Yeah.

Ian

00:16:11 – 00:16:21

I'm more of a, I was more of a La Liga guy when Messi was there. But now now I just watch Messi in the US, so I don't have to even worry about the Europeans anymore. Fully fully in America.

Dax

00:16:22 – 00:16:37

I know it's wild. Okay. So the weird thing about Miami is I don't know. I can't really explain why this is the case, but celebrity just, like, randomly end up in, like, very normal situations right next to you. Like, do you see all those pictures of him at the grocery store?

Aaron

00:16:37 – 00:16:38

I did.

Ian

00:16:38 – 00:16:39

Oh, I actually didn't see that.

Dax

00:16:40 – 00:16:56

And I can't I have to, like, really stress this. This is, like, the most normal grocery store on the planet. It's, like, where you would go with your family, and then you turn an aisle and messages there, like, looking at jams. Like, it's such a weird situation. And the picture I posted the other day of Jeff Bezos just walking around my neighborhood.

Aaron

00:16:57 – 00:16:58

Yeah. Yeah. That was wild.

Dax

00:16:59 – 00:17:01

It's really odd. Wild.

Ian

00:17:01 – 00:17:11

That is the cool thing about cities. It's like you got that you know, there's just people walking in New York that's similar. It's like, oh, there's people walking around. And it's like, there they are. And they're in the restaurant with you or whatever.

Dax

00:17:11 – 00:17:20

I think in New York, it's it's so much easier to be anonymous. I thought you would just never notice someone that's around because there's so many people. That's true. Yeah. I guess I did see a good amount.

Dax

00:17:21 – 00:17:37

I think the one that jumps to mind is I was at a restaurant and the table right next to me was Michael Cera the whole time and he did not look good. He just didn't he just did not look good. Like, he looked kind of bummed out and, like, just not healthy. And I don't know. It just was a sad vibe.

Ian

00:17:37 – 00:17:51

There was this place on West Broadway we used to go that was like this really awesome restaurant, just like a little hole in the wall type place. And there was like, what's that? I think it's like Josh Hartnett or something like that is the guy's name. That's like 20 years ago or something. And yeah, he was just in there like eating.

Ian

00:17:51 – 00:18:02

I think I saw him in there twice. And, just like, oh, yeah, she's just like his spy. He just goes there and sits at the bar and eats and, like, nobody messes with him. Nobody went up to him and was like, give me your autograph or whatever. Just like,

Dax

00:18:02 – 00:18:13

you know, he just didn't look at all. Yeah. We also saw Louis CK, like, peak cancellation time too. And he also did not look very good. Was that right?

Dax

00:18:15 – 00:18:21

It was also an ice cream store. So it just looked like he just looked extra depressed because he's just there, like, getting

Aaron

00:18:21 – 00:18:30

ice cream. And he's like Yeah. Eating ice cream alone is not a good look. Yeah. The only famous person I've run into in Dallas is Troy Aikman.

Aaron

00:18:30 – 00:18:38

He was, like, sitting at us at a restaurant once, and he was sitting, like, one table over. And I was like, I think I know that guy. And I didn't. It was Troy Aikman.

Dax

00:18:42 – 00:18:45

He Did you ever see anyone famous in the Ozarks, Adam? Do you ever see Brad Pitt?

Adam

00:18:45 – 00:18:52

Brad Pitt all the time. Yeah. No. Actually, he his parents still live here, so his brother has, like, a an electronics store or something here.

Ian

00:18:52 – 00:18:53

Oh, wow.

Adam

00:18:53 – 00:18:55

And his brother looks exactly like him. Like, exactly like him.

Dax

00:18:55 – 00:18:58

But not enough. Right? Because if you looked enough like him

Adam

00:18:58 – 00:18:59

I mean, pretty similar.

Aaron

00:18:59 – 00:19:02

Enough like him, he wouldn't own an electronic store.

Ian

00:19:03 – 00:19:04

It's it's fair.

Dax

00:19:06 – 00:19:06

It's got

Adam

00:19:06 – 00:19:07

to be really famous people.

Dax

00:19:07 – 00:19:09

There's no famous people here. Okay.

Ian

00:19:11 – 00:19:11

Is that why

Adam

00:19:11 – 00:19:24

is that why people live in cities like that? It's the celebrities Because I just can't I can't put it together in my mind. Like, people always say, like, oh, you've got everything. Everything is here. I think if you have, like, a 100000 people, you've got accommodations for everything you'd wanna do.

Adam

00:19:24 – 00:19:26

You have, like, a zoo and, like, what, Target?

Dax

00:19:26 – 00:19:28

I mean, I don't know. On your

Ian

00:19:28 – 00:19:29

list. What is he

Dax

00:19:29 – 00:19:30

beyond it?

Dax

00:19:30 – 00:19:31

Like, Target. What's the speed?

Aaron

00:19:31 – 00:19:35

Zu wouldn't have even made my list if I'm being honest. I

Dax

00:19:36 – 00:19:36

don't know what

Adam

00:19:36 – 00:19:38

you're telling me. I don't know. What, like, what do you guys

Dax

00:19:38 – 00:19:39

have on the list?

Adam

00:19:39 – 00:19:42

I don't understand. That's how you you're

Dax

00:19:42 – 00:19:48

so you're so you're living such a different life that you don't even you don't even understand what you don't don't have. That's how far

Dax

00:19:48 – 00:19:49

I will

Aaron

00:19:49 – 00:19:51

I will say saying zoo and bowling alley,

Dax

00:19:52 – 00:19:55

that does that does betray a little bit of the different life you're living.

Ian

00:19:55 – 00:19:56

I mean, I'm not using any

Adam

00:19:56 – 00:20:05

of that stuff anyway. Like, I don't leave my house, and I wouldn't if I lived in the city. But, like, I just don't understand, like, what are the things? Like, Broadway, is that it? It's like you can go to Broadway shows in New York.

Adam

00:20:05 – 00:20:08

It's like, what is the thing you guys have? Too far the other direction.

Dax

00:20:08 – 00:20:09

The Statue of Liberty.

Ian

00:20:11 – 00:20:16

I've just lived on the Internet. That's what I'm the vibe I'm getting. Right? He's like, you're just sitting all native.

Adam

00:20:16 – 00:20:19

Yeah. I know. We do. Yeah. Increasingly so.

Aaron

00:20:19 – 00:20:20

I will say

Ian

00:20:20 – 00:20:30

How do you get off the Internet? This is a an interesting question I have for people. Do you do you get off the Internet or no? Is there anything explicitly you do to get off the Internet, or are you just too locked in right now?

Dax

00:20:30 – 00:20:38

I'm the last person I could you guys at least have children. So Yeah. I imagine that. We're forced. That's kind of important to, like, pay attention to, I imagine.

Adam

00:20:38 – 00:20:43

I guess I imagine a day where I spend, like, next to no time on the Internet, but I'm not there right now. Yeah.

Aaron

00:20:43 – 00:20:47

Yeah. Adam, you fight. Don't you do, like, judo, taekwondo, something like that? Yeah.

Adam

00:20:47 – 00:20:51

Yeah. Jujitsu? Yeah. There you go. You named 2 martial arts without saying jujitsu.

Dax

00:20:51 – 00:20:51

That's

Aaron

00:20:51 – 00:20:56

Yeah. Without saying the one. That's very good. I do know you're vegan. I got that part done.

Ian

00:20:56 – 00:20:57

I'm vegan. I couldn't remember

Aaron

00:20:57 – 00:20:59

the martial art that you used. Yeah.

Adam

00:20:59 – 00:21:04

I did some yesterday. My face is a little beat up. I like, Mondays after open, man, I'm, like, all black eyed and everything.

Aaron

00:21:04 – 00:21:11

Here here's a here's a interesting tidbit for you, Ian. Adam, in his infinite wisdom was like, I don't need I don't need health insurance.

Dax

00:21:12 – 00:21:12

Why would

Aaron

00:21:12 – 00:21:20

I ever have health insurance? And then he's like, I'm gonna get into jujitsu and then also separately, for some reason, go to the hospital, like, 4 times.

Ian

00:21:20 – 00:21:22

Yeah. Literally. I I dropped my health insurance,

Adam

00:21:22 – 00:21:26

and I went to the hospital twice and started jujitsu. So

Dax

00:21:26 – 00:21:26

Yeah.

Adam

00:21:26 – 00:21:27

Not a good recipe.

Dax

00:21:28 – 00:21:28

Are you

Adam

00:21:28 – 00:21:32

back on the list? I've still saved money, just to be clear. Like, on premiums part.

Ian

00:21:32 – 00:21:37

Still saves a lot of money. Know. Yeah. This is not a philosophy I subscribe to. This is No.

Ian

00:21:37 – 00:21:44

It's so risky. Technically approved. This is definitely, that's a bad bad Wait. Wait. You gotta get the health insurance.

Ian

00:21:44 – 00:21:48

At least just get the one that's, like, covers nothing except for, like, your literally get my ass

Adam

00:21:48 – 00:21:49

out of the one

Ian

00:21:49 – 00:21:51

I have. It's not about though.

Adam

00:21:51 – 00:21:59

It's not about the money for me. I've done it for 15 years. It's the principle. I just don't wanna go into the main system. The system's just so bad and so dumb that I just don't wanna be a part of it.

Ian

00:21:59 – 00:22:07

Like, what if you lose your house and all your stuff? Because, like, I mean, for that when you get hit by a bus, like, that's. I don't know.

Adam

00:22:07 – 00:22:09

Don't they say you have to pay medical bills or something? I don't know.

Dax

00:22:09 – 00:22:13

You don't even have to pay. I don't know. I think you're saying it's the opposite.

Aaron

00:22:13 – 00:22:15

I think they're the only ones you can't discharge.

Dax

00:22:15 – 00:22:16

Yeah. Yeah.

Ian

00:22:16 – 00:22:17

I don't

Dax

00:22:17 – 00:22:18

know. Yeah.

Ian

00:22:18 – 00:22:19

A lot of risk there.

Dax

00:22:21 – 00:22:41

My my friends, on or something worked at a hospital billing thing, whatever. And I don't know if this is true. It definitely sounds extremely made up, but he is like the way they work, if you literally just send them $1 every time they ask you to pay, they're like some, like, counter resets. And then you keep this going on for years, and they eventually just give up. So

Ian

00:22:41 – 00:22:42

That's incredible.

Aaron

00:22:43 – 00:22:53

You know what we do with every every medical bill we get, literally everyone that's over, you know, $100, we call and say, what if I give you less? Yeah. Exactly. Right now.

Ian

00:22:53 – 00:22:56

I was just gonna I was just gonna say that. On the phone.

Aaron

00:22:56 – 00:23:01

Now. I'll give you 70%. You can run my credit card. And they're always like, yeah. Okay.

Aaron

00:23:01 – 00:23:01

That's fine.

Ian

00:23:02 – 00:23:04

Yeah. It's great. It's great. I'm glad

Dax

00:23:04 – 00:23:04

that I have a

Adam

00:23:04 – 00:23:05

used car with cash.

Aaron

00:23:05 – 00:23:11

You just ignore the first letter. Right now. You get the second letter, and then you call, and you're like, oh, wow. Shoot. Oh, jeez.

Aaron

00:23:11 – 00:23:13

Goodness. What if I give you 70%? And I'm like,

Dax

00:23:13 – 00:23:15

oh, that's awesome. Let's do it. Yeah.

Aaron

00:23:15 – 00:23:16

It's great.

Ian

00:23:16 – 00:23:34

That that definitely works. That you should everybody should do that for sure. Like, because that's just the odd even if you're like like, we have the high deductible because, yeah, I don't wanna pay whatever. I have the money to pay for, like, a couple $1,000 here and there, but I don't wanna have to pay $1,000,000 if I get sick or whatever. So, so yeah, when we get bills like that, it's like, yeah, you just call them and be like, I'm not paying this.

Ian

00:23:34 – 00:23:45

I'm paying out of pocket for this. Like, what are you gonna do for me? And then it's always at least, like, 25% off or more. Not just with, like, the bare minimum fighting bag, just calling. I I'm sure you get 50% off if you, like, really stuck to your guns and

Adam

00:23:45 – 00:23:46

Mhmm.

Dax

00:23:46 – 00:23:46

You

Ian

00:23:46 – 00:23:47

know, grab I've had

Dax

00:23:47 – 00:24:11

even crazier situation than that. So Liz had to get her gallbladder out, and they quoted us, like, over $100,000 or something. And we were just like, and then, I went, we went and looked up like all this stuff and it ended up being pushed down to, like, around 10,000. Oh, wow. And they technically keep trying to ask us for more and we just haven't responded in, like, years and nothing happened.

Adam

00:24:12 – 00:24:25

So Isn't there something and like, I did not do all this research because I was dropping health insurance. But isn't there something where, like, they can't hit your credit or something with medical bills? Are there something like if you don't pay, it's a different system or something? It

Dax

00:24:25 – 00:24:26

could be.

Ian

00:24:26 – 00:24:27

Yeah. It could be something like that.

Dax

00:24:27 – 00:24:32

Usually send to collections and collections tries to bother you and they eventually give up. That's been my experience.

Dax

00:24:32 – 00:24:32

I could

Ian

00:24:32 – 00:24:36

see that. Yeah. Are you working on a business

Dax

00:24:36 – 00:24:36

to do that?

Aaron

00:24:36 – 00:24:38

Is financial advice, by

Dax

00:24:38 – 00:24:38

the way.

Aaron

00:24:38 – 00:24:41

No. Nobody listen to this, please. Oh, boy. Yeah.

Ian

00:24:41 – 00:24:46

This is rough on here. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I've always had the health insurance.

Ian

00:24:46 – 00:24:47

I like the health insurance.

Dax

00:24:48 – 00:24:49

It's a

Ian

00:24:49 – 00:24:49

write off.

Dax

00:24:49 – 00:24:50

So I

Aaron

00:24:50 – 00:24:51

like the health insurance.

Ian

00:24:51 – 00:24:52

Of a write off.

Dax

00:24:52 – 00:24:53

You know?

Ian

00:24:53 – 00:24:53

Again, we're

Aaron

00:24:53 – 00:24:54

on the same page.

Ian

00:24:54 – 00:24:55

There you go.

Dax

00:24:55 – 00:24:56

We we have we have

Aaron

00:24:56 – 00:25:01

our little disagreements here and there, but I like I like the health insurance.

Ian

00:25:01 – 00:25:04

I got it, man. There you go. Yeah. I like that. Good job.

Ian

00:25:05 – 00:25:10

Oh, man. Alright. Alright. Let's get into some meat here. We've been on the mostly a lot.

Ian

00:25:10 – 00:25:23

Oh, let's jump over to the technical. Yeah. So I you guys are perfect for this because I feel like you guys are on the JavaScripty end of the world. We're on the Laravel end of the world. I mean, I I I know nothing about JavaScript.

Ian

00:25:23 – 00:25:38

I know Next. Js, all this stuff. I spent a couple months last year learning React just so I have some idea what's going on. It was like, maybe I was gonna use it for some projects or whatever. So I have a little idea of like pure react, but none of the like full stack, how it runs in the server and stuff.

Ian

00:25:38 – 00:26:29

And obviously this week, we've been coming out with, you guys are talking to Taylor tomorrow is my understand understanding, right, on your podcast. So everybody check that out, we'll we'll link that up. But yeah. So Taylor had his little, you know, post, which I thought was from the Laravel perspective, made a lot of sense about how full stack Laravel is and how it lets you build real applications quickly and reliably. And it's kind of like batteries included, has everything you need, versus kind of the JavaScript meaning of full stack, which at least to my understanding and my limited experience is more kind of like all the parts are sort of out there to do it, but you really have to put it all together yourself, and there's not a unifying, opinionated, overarching, sort of framework or, just even standards around that.

Ian

00:26:29 – 00:26:35

So that's my my summary. I don't know if you guys have anything to add to kind of that that summary of the situation.

Dax

00:26:36 – 00:26:54

No. I think that that makes sense. Yeah. It's funny because in this situation, yeah, me and Adam represent the JavaScript side, but I think the interesting detail here is, we're both I mean me and Adam are both full stack people but that term is obviously very very loose.

Ian

00:26:55 – 00:26:56

Proper full stack.

Dax

00:26:56 – 00:27:02

Both of us go very deep on the back end side, like deeper than what most people would say full stack because we do a lot of infrastructure work.

Ian

00:27:02 – 00:27:03

Right.

Dax

00:27:03 – 00:27:18

The question to ask is, why are either of us even doing JavaScript in the first place? It's not like it's the only thing we've ever done. I'm actually, like, somewhat newer to it. Like, I only started doing JavaScript in the back end in the last 3 years. Had a bunch of different stacks before then.

Dax

00:27:18 – 00:27:39

I think Adam's the same as well. So questions like why are we even here? Neither of us like the language, but we're not here because we're like, oh, we love we love JavaScript. No back end and JavaScript engineers really like that. SST also primarily serve even though we talk about front end stuff a lot, our audience is primarily, back end JavaScript engineers.

Dax

00:27:40 – 00:28:26

So the only reason any of us are doing JavaScript is because at some point, a lot of us bought into the idea of, picking a cloud and utilizing it maximally. So prior to this, I was building things in Elixir, prior to that in Go, prior then c sharp. Those systems are more around, like, creating a nice little bubble for you to live in, and then you can deploy that bubble anywhere, whether it's AWS on your own servers, whatever. There's, like, there's, like, little adapters for things, so you can kinda use some of the features that are in each of these providers. But at some point, a bunch of us had the notion of if you really commit yourself to a certain cloud, they can really handle a lot of things for you way more than you can with, like, more agnostic framework.

Dax

00:28:27 – 00:28:44

And they just give us a fundamental trade off. And it's fine if that doesn't click for you, but it has clicked for a bunch of people. Unfortunately, the best language to program these things is JavaScript. That's, like, what these clouds were built around. And if you look at some of the more newer ones like Cloudflare I know Ian's a big Cloudflare fan.

Ian

00:28:44 – 00:28:45

Love Cloudflare.

Dax

00:28:45 – 00:29:13

They're they're, like, even way more oriented around JavaScript. So we only bother so we only bother using JavaScript because it gives us access to all these other other things. If you went and built us, equivalent to Laravel or Elixir Phoenix or Rails, we just wouldn't bother using JavaScript. Do we just go back to one of these other systems that are more mature with, languages that we we prefer? That's at least my take.

Dax

00:29:13 – 00:29:24

Like, it's the only reason why I'm in JavaScript land. Like, I don't, like, I don't have any love for the for the language or anything. It just it gives me access to these things that other ecosystems just do they just don't build that way.

Ian

00:29:25 – 00:29:55

Yeah. Well, all those cloud elements are accessible from even a backend oriented framework, right? Like, I mean, it kind of removes the requirement, I guess, for some of the, the like, they've kind of glued it together with JavaScript where like, it's more accessible, from JavaScript, but like all the AWS stuff you can use from a Laravel app to the vast majority of it. Right? There are these like things like Cloudflare workers, which super annoyingly, like, yeah, you have to write JavaScript or whatever.

Ian

00:29:55 – 00:29:56

But, all the, like,

Dax

00:29:56 – 00:29:57

whatever, s 3 or RDS or whatever, all the big stuff is,

Ian

00:29:57 – 00:30:05

accessible from anything, really. So I don't know. Yeah.

Aaron

00:30:05 – 00:30:14

But I feel like I feel like when they're when, like, the stuff that Dax is talking about is less like the RDS and more like the step functions and stuff like that where it helps

Ian

00:30:14 – 00:30:16

you orchestrate a back end.

Aaron

00:30:16 – 00:30:34

Yeah. It helps you orchestrate what you would maybe traditionally do in, like, a monolithic back end in Laravel or Rails, and instead, you break it up into these AWS or otherwise primitives that then kind of form up your back end out of these little pieces instead of a monolith. Yeah.

Dax

00:30:35 – 00:30:58

Yeah. And it's funny you bring up step functions because I hate step functions. And I would say on this spectrum of, like, going really hard with like doing AWS native stuff, I actually don't go that far. There's just a spectrum, right? Like, I think that Ian mentioned like you can deploy a rel a Laravel app that are using the adapters that are for AWS flavor of things, like for events, for queues, for all those things.

Dax

00:30:59 – 00:31:27

Then it's like a step further where you're like, I don't like, imagine that you didn't care about letting me move this Laravel app to a different cloud. You would use it a little bit more intensely and use more of it and have give you, like, functionality, like, spin that stuff up and down really easily. And that's kind of the zone that I operate in. It's kind of the zone that Adam operates in as well. And I would say the majority of, like modern back end JavaScript that's like starting up today, it fits in in that category.

Dax

00:31:28 – 00:31:41

If you're not doing that, I don't really know why you'd be running JavaScript as your back end thing. I just That's interesting. I haven't really seen it and, like, I don't I don't know. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Ian

00:31:41 – 00:31:42

What's your theory? I have this theory.

Aaron

00:31:43 – 00:31:43

Alright.

Ian

00:31:44 – 00:31:47

And I don't know any this is this is totally This

Dax

00:31:47 – 00:31:47

is it.

Aaron

00:31:47 – 00:31:48

No facts.

Ian

00:31:48 – 00:31:49

There's no facts here at all.

Aaron

00:31:49 – 00:31:50

We don't need them.

Ian

00:31:50 – 00:32:29

We don't need them. But, like, how much is, like, JavaScript kind of taking over the mindset of a lot of programming and things like that is, I guess, I feel like a lot of it from the outside world feels very VC money backed. And how are there really a lot of applications in production in the tens, 100 of 1,000,000 of dollars, 1,000,000,000 of dollars that are running like this. Do you know what I'm saying? Like just deploying for the JavaScript front end and the connectors, and that's actually running a $1,000,000,000 business.

Ian

00:32:29 – 00:32:53

Like I'm, like a real, not just a $1,000,000,000 business of like on paper, but a real like revenue generating $1,000,000,000 business. Like, I don't know if it's just too early and they're not there or maybe they're out there and I'm not as aware of them. Obviously like a lot of big enterprise stuff is not built this way, so it's more newer webby stuff, but I don't know. I'm I'm curious what you guys are aware about that. That's like that.

Dax

00:32:53 – 00:33:05

Yeah. What's funny is, there's actually a lot of enterprise usage of this for the same reason I just mentioned. What do enterprises use? They use AWS. What do they try to do a lot of?

Dax

00:33:05 – 00:33:23

Like they try to offload a lot of their work through AWS, especially if they're not a tech company. So weirdly, some of the earliest adoption of that stuff is in big enterprise. Like, I don't probably know this better, but like a lot of the AWS heroes and and people from that world, they all work at these big enterprise companies. Right?

Adam

00:33:23 – 00:33:25

Is that a question to me?

Dax

00:33:27 – 00:33:27

That's cool. Yeah. You're you're adding

Dax

00:33:28 – 00:33:29

on a different planet. Yeah.

Aaron

00:33:29 – 00:33:30

We should've gone over that

Ian

00:33:30 – 00:33:33

at the beginning. Yeah. Lot of rhetorical. I didn't know

Adam

00:33:33 – 00:33:35

you're actually asking me a stupid question.

Ian

00:33:35 – 00:33:35

Yeah.

Adam

00:33:35 – 00:33:47

A lot I mean, a lot of the heroes do work at, like, random big companies. I know that because I don't know about these companies. It's, like, not big names that I've heard of, just, like, random companies. So like, well, they've been, they've

Ian

00:33:47 – 00:34:06

built out a new system in this more modern style. It's not necessarily running their whole enterprise. Right? Because like they have a COBOL app somewhere doing something, whatever, but it's like we have a new internal app that's doing whatever, something for the HR department or whatever they're doing, and they're gonna build it on this stack as like a freestanding, Yeah.

Adam

00:34:06 – 00:34:29

1 of the big examples, like when people talk about serverless, like adoption in the enterprise is Lego. So Lego had this big transformation where they went from kind of traditional app architecture to this very modern, like event driven stuff. But I, I honestly, I know there's like whole pages on AWS site about like companies that have adopted these modern approaches. I don't remember.

Dax

00:34:29 – 00:34:47

I said, I don't know. Yeah. So there's a lot and I think we've experienced this because our SST took a very weird route. Usually a framework starts, low end of the market and then moves to higher end. Weirdly, we got adoption first in the higher end because these companies were this is how they were building stuff.

Dax

00:34:47 – 00:34:57

So they're more familiar with our approach. And even though our tools are rough, like they had expertise in it, so they could they were the early adopters. Right. We've been working to, like, bring it down market to, like

Ian

00:34:57 – 00:34:58

That's interesting.

Dax

00:34:58 – 00:35:15

So, you know, the people that are that are building smaller things. But those are examples of enterprise side, on like, like the more like startup type thing. I hate bringing this up because I like obsessively bring up linear and I'm like, so self conscious every time I bring it up because

Aaron

00:35:15 – 00:35:16

I think

Dax

00:35:16 – 00:35:19

they're just the best app ever built and their backend isn't is in JavaScript.

Dax

00:35:21 – 00:35:21

It's the

Dax

00:35:21 – 00:35:44

but the point here though, is that, like, my point is, like, it's kind of irrelevant that's in JavaScript. Like, they're just a really talented team and, like, they would have just made it great. And it's not like, oh, they use JavaScript, therefore they were successful. You know, it's just like that's kinda like an irrelevant detail. But there are quite a lot of examples, in the past, like, I would say 5 or so years.

Adam

00:35:44 – 00:35:58

So this whole conversation, I wanna make sure, Ian, when you talk about, like, the VC and the noise, like, is most of the noise on Twitter? And if so, I don't even know how much of it's even back in JavaScript. How much of it's just

Dax

00:35:58 – 00:35:59

It's all front end.

Adam

00:35:59 – 00:36:01

Front end JavaScript portal.

Ian

00:36:01 – 00:36:04

There's a lot of more exposure. I think the front end JavaScript. Right? Like, everybody works at Vercel,

Dax

00:36:05 – 00:36:06

and who

Ian

00:36:06 – 00:36:11

who knows what they're all doing there. Right? Like, nobody knows. Nobody knows. Like, and that kind of thing.

Ian

00:36:11 – 00:36:12

I do think

Dax

00:36:13 – 00:36:26

We we we can't ignore the fact, like, you know, they've spent 300,000,000 or so. I think there's raised another 250. Like you spend that kind of money in a space. Like it's going to have some amount of impact. So you can't say it.

Dax

00:36:26 – 00:36:37

No one can say, oh, it's 0. It was like all natural. And I do think a lot of the noise specifically comes from them, especially with serverless. Sorry?

Adam

00:36:37 – 00:36:44

They've raised $550,000,000. Yeah. So I know you're like that buys some Twitter audience or Twitter banter.

Dax

00:36:44 – 00:36:51

You're just impacting the world. Like, if you spend that much capital on anything, you're gonna be able to build something out of it unless you're completely stupid.

Ian

00:36:52 – 00:37:15

Well, the linear thing's kinda interesting to me because it sort of represents a little bit what we're kinda talking about the sundry because, like, they had a issue. Like, I'm a I I experimented with using linear. We didn't fully move over to it, but, it was on there, whatever. I get their emails and whatnot. And it's like they had some kind of data issue where they lost, like, 12 hours of data and like for 24 or 12 or 24 And I don't know.

Ian

00:37:15 – 00:37:33

It was weird to me like they didn't have a point in time database recovery and, like, maybe 5 minutes of data, but to lose 24 hours data is a lot of data. And, like, so to me, it's like one of these, like, they're not a back end thinking company. Right? So it's like, yeah, we just shove the data up there. Who knows what those default settings were, if it was configured correctly or whatever.

Ian

00:37:33 – 00:37:36

But now maybe they just lost it through some other means. I don't know.

Adam

00:37:36 – 00:37:38

Yeah. So I don't know if you

Dax

00:37:38 – 00:37:38

have the

Ian

00:37:38 – 00:37:41

details there, but it was the other thing that actually was kinda weird.

Dax

00:37:41 – 00:38:06

I think they did recover it, but that situation was actually not from, like, their database messing up. So the reason why linear is so impressive compared to other apps is because they sync all the data to the front end. And it's like a crazy complex it's basically like treating every browser as another replica in your database. So that is, like, really sophisticated distributed systems problems. And they had some kind of weird issue with that.

Dax

00:38:07 – 00:38:17

So I think there were some rights that just stuck locally and, like, didn't make it up or something or there was, like, massively delayed, and obviously remerging after 12 hours causes a bunch of conflicts.

Ian

00:38:19 – 00:38:19

Gotcha.

Dax

00:38:19 – 00:38:35

Like yeah. So I think that was that situation, but I do agree with your point that I think the root of all this is again, to me, it just feels so made up. It's like there's a lot of people that start with something like Next. Js, and they're like, this is my whole application. It's just a Next.

Dax

00:38:35 – 00:38:36

Js application.

Dax

00:38:36 – 00:38:36

Right.

Ian

00:38:36 – 00:38:36

And I

Dax

00:38:36 – 00:38:54

think the impression externally is, like, that's what the jobs community is. But literally nobody does this. No, like, serious company does this. The reason we focus a lot on helping companies deploy Next. Js is because 90% of their system is this like AWS thing, sometimes in JavaScript, sometimes not.

Dax

00:38:54 – 00:39:03

They're using Next. Js on the front end and it's a pain in the ass to deploy alongside the rest of their stuff. So they come to us and we help them figure that out. Out. This is not their whole app.

Dax

00:39:03 – 00:39:13

Like, they don't they do not care about Next. Js. They're not like, oh, like, we have to, like, have all the latest features that need to be deployed on Vercel. They just don't care. It's just It's just the React default.

Adam

00:39:13 – 00:39:17

Right? Like, it's replaced create React app. It's, like, the default way to create a React app.

Dax

00:39:18 – 00:39:23

Yeah. And there are people like trying to use it for like everything. Like my whole system is in Next.

Dax

00:39:23 – 00:39:23

Js,

Dax

00:39:23 – 00:39:30

but you can't even it has no solution for doing any asynchronous work. Like, just that's just a nonstarter for, like, anything.

Aaron

00:39:30 – 00:39:31

But a real application.

Adam

00:39:32 – 00:39:34

Shipweeks coming, Dax. They could

Dax

00:39:34 – 00:39:34

have happened

Adam

00:39:34 – 00:39:36

this year. It could be this year.

Dax

00:39:37 – 00:39:39

That's true. That is true.

Ian

00:39:39 – 00:39:40

So when is their ship week?

Dax

00:39:41 – 00:39:41

I think

Dax

00:39:41 – 00:39:42

it's this month.

Aaron

00:39:43 – 00:39:45

No. Dax is gonna go crazy on

Adam

00:39:45 – 00:39:46

ship week.

Dax

00:39:47 – 00:39:52

Oh, but here here's the thing, though. I am going on vacation, to Europe on

Aaron

00:39:52 – 00:39:57

Sorry, Liz. Sorry, Liz. They shit something. Got it.

Dax

00:39:57 – 00:40:02

You know, she literally told me she was, like, no funny with Purcell on vacation. Well,

Aaron

00:40:03 – 00:40:08

I don't know if she knows you very well. I know y'all are married or whatever, but I can't

Dax

00:40:09 – 00:40:10

resist. How

Ian

00:40:10 – 00:40:12

long are you going for? How long are you going for?

Adam

00:40:12 – 00:40:12

That's I'm

Dax

00:40:12 – 00:40:18

going to Lisbon and Spain for a week, and Okay. I I'll be here for their ship week announcement, which I am curious about. But,

Ian

00:40:19 – 00:40:22

Maybe he could hold out a week. I mean, I I could see him.

Aaron

00:40:22 – 00:40:23

There's no way he can

Ian

00:40:23 – 00:40:25

hold out a week. It's not, like, 4 weeks.

Adam

00:40:25 – 00:40:26

No. Like, what year?

Aaron

00:40:27 – 00:40:36

Listen. Adam's not gonna understand this in this reference, but this is red meat for Dax. Ship meat is red meat. Like, he's gotta pounce on it.

Ian

00:40:37 – 00:40:37

No. No. No.

Dax

00:40:37 – 00:40:56

No. My my whole attitude to this is, I have, you know, like, you like sort of fire, like, you know, I've, like, gotten the smoke going and I think other people will, I can delegate this one, I'm hoping. I can delegate to the people. Incredible.

Ian

00:40:56 – 00:40:57

The disciples.

Aaron

00:40:57 – 00:41:11

So what did you think, Dax and Adam, what did you think about the the discourse on Twitter around the Laravel JavaScript? What's a framework? What's back end? Michael Jackson, isn't that his name? That's definitely his name.

Aaron

00:41:11 – 00:41:12

Michael Jackson remix. Weighed in.

Dax

00:41:12 – 00:41:14

The most ungoogle thing in the world.

Aaron

00:41:14 – 00:41:22

Yeah. Yeah. Michael Jackson React router version 7. So he weighed in. Ryan Florence weighed in.

Aaron

00:41:22 – 00:41:32

Taylor weighed in. Everybody weighed in. Y'all are having them on on the show tomorrow. So what what are your thoughts as you're prepping for this big show? What were your thoughts watching all of this go down?

Aaron

00:41:32 – 00:41:33

Prepping.

Ian

00:41:35 – 00:41:37

They're prepping. Right now.

Aaron

00:41:37 – 00:41:38

They're all in the processing.

Adam

00:41:38 – 00:41:39

Prep. Yeah.

Ian

00:41:39 – 00:41:39

That that

Dax

00:41:39 – 00:41:40

is allergic.

Adam

00:41:40 – 00:41:43

Dax is allergic to anything prepping or process or

Aaron

00:41:43 – 00:41:44

Perfect.

Adam

00:41:44 – 00:41:45

Writing things down. I know. Right?

Dax

00:41:45 – 00:41:48

I think Adam had some feelings. I saw him post.

Adam

00:41:49 – 00:42:00

I mean, I I just feel like so when people say, like, the JavaScript world, we don't have this kind of, like Full full stack. Full list Mhmm. Stack. Fuller stack. I don't know.

Adam

00:42:00 – 00:42:11

We don't have that, but we do like, there are a few of them people have tried. They just weren't the most popular. Like, they didn't take over Mhmm. In the way that maybe or, like, are there is there an Yeah. That became very popular.

Adam

00:42:11 – 00:42:12

No. But some people have tried, like,

Aaron

00:42:17 – 00:42:25

Yeah. That became very popular. No. But some people have tried, like, yeah. We give you ultimate freedom to pick your favorite packages and tie them together loosely.

Aaron

00:42:25 – 00:42:28

And everybody's like, seems hard.

Adam

00:42:28 – 00:42:49

So my my view is just that it's, like, random that, like, in the JavaScript world for whatever reason, the ones that went out and became popular were these kind of, like, modular systems and the ones in PHP and Rails. I think what Dax said, I mean, all that stuff about infrastructure and cloud in the last few years, that makes sense. I get it. I guess I just, I feel like it's all kind of like just random.

Dax

00:42:49 – 00:43:18

Yeah. I definitely agree with that. I think there's like it's people really understate how much things come down to a specific time, a specific person, things lining up in a certain way. So, Jay, CEO of a company, he described this thing. I forgot what coach it was, but, he was talking about his team over the years and it's the same group of people on the team, but it's like a different team every year.

Dax

00:43:18 – 00:43:38

It's like, this is the 2022 team. This is a 2023 team. Even though it looks the same, it's like it's you treat it like a different era. So I think there is a lot of that going on with things that are like as incredible as some of this stuff like to have to get this big to have this level of influence. There's so much variability on randomness and stuff.

Dax

00:43:40 – 00:43:54

There's so many things. Right? Like JavaScript, I would say, had a big reset with TypeScript. Like, it came out. It got to a point where it sort of became the default, but then it took even longer than that for people to, like, understand it well enough to actually build the right level of tooling.

Dax

00:43:54 – 00:44:08

And that's kinda what's happening now. You start to see libraries come out that are, like, correctly using it. And also, it's like we're at TypeScript v 5 now. I wouldn't even say all this was possible till, like, around v 4. So there's just been a lot of change and and and variation.

Dax

00:44:09 – 00:44:31

I'm convinced though that every there's been a like Adam said, there's been a bunch of attempts trying to do the let's have a rails for JavaScript thing. And there's been like 1 or 2 projects that are in that category. It just doesn't just doesn't work. Like I like I said, if if you pitch me that and I look at it, I just wanna go use a different language. That's kinda where I immediately go to.

Dax

00:44:31 – 00:44:54

Yeah. In terms of the discourse, it's funny because I think when you're building a framework, you're in this category of in a very small pool of people. Right? Like, there's, like, very few people that really build and do an open source thing. And you ultimately it's this weird thing where you, like, are so nerdy about this stuff.

Dax

00:44:54 – 00:45:22

So you're, like, really into other things even though if it's not for you. Like, I'm sure, like Taylor is like super interested in in what like remakes and next is doing just from like an academic point of view because, you know, it helps him reorder himself and and vice versa. Like, everyone's, like, stunning each other and there's a lot of, like, just fundamental respect in that way, even though your approaches might be completely opposite at the end of the day. So that's kind of what I saw in the initial discourse. Like, when I saw it, I was like, okay.

Dax

00:45:22 – 00:45:35

That's that's what it is. Like, I studied Laravel a lot, like, for our work. Like, we we look at everything from the way they do their docs to what concepts of how big their scope is. And I'm sure everyone everyone is doing that. So I found that initial post interesting from that perspective.

Dax

00:45:36 – 00:45:48

I think as usual on Twitter, it's, it was like there's an initial interaction that is fine. And then, like, it devolves into a really stupid place after, which is I think it's just how everything everything goes.

Ian

00:45:48 – 00:45:48

Oh, it

Dax

00:45:48 – 00:45:53

is. Yeah. I thought there's almost no value in, like, the general discourse after.

Ian

00:45:54 – 00:45:57

Going too far down the thread, you know, makes no there's no point. No.

Dax

00:45:57 – 00:45:57

Yeah. You

Ian

00:45:57 – 00:46:25

don't wanna pass the first couple. I do think the the history is super interesting and definitely something people forget. Cause I do feel like P P in general, of course, is definitely my background is like, and even with Taylor, it's like rooted in a lot of like solo founder with no money at all. And so it's like, you know, and Taylor worked at user escape my company. And then when in early Laravel days, and then he built forge by himself and, you know, went off and did that.

Ian

00:46:25 – 00:46:39

And it's like, what are the tools that are gonna let one person with no money go and build a product that makes 1,000,000 of dollars? And so that's like the mindset. Like, you don't wanna connect a 1,000 things and have all the complexity. You just wanna be like, I use this one tool. It does everything I need.

Ian

00:46:39 – 00:46:49

And now I move forward. Whereas like the modern sort of JavaScript ecosystem seems like it's come from a different place. Right? Like, there is money, and there's enterprises, and there's VC money. And it's like, okay.

Ian

00:46:49 – 00:47:18

Like, we can have specialists even in different roles and all that kind of stuff. It's not so focused on what one person can achieve with it, as, like, its legacy. Obviously, now, I think on both stacks, like, one person can do a lot or huge teams can do a lot because they're they've evolved to that. But, the kind of core sort of baked in really deep mindset is maybe a little bit different there about what they're trying to achieve and, like, how they're trying to achieve that from, like, a business

Dax

00:47:19 – 00:47:34

perspective. And JavaScript is just messier. Like, they're just like a it's a messier history. It's a more accidental history. The hottest take I have with this is I don't think good engineers enter the JavaScript space until the last, like, 3 or 4 years.

Dax

00:47:34 – 00:47:38

And I think previously, it was stewarded by people that were just a lot less competent.

Aaron

00:47:39 – 00:47:40

That is a hot take.

Dax

00:47:40 – 00:47:41

I like that. That's So

Aaron

00:47:41 – 00:47:43

That's yeah. That's red hot.

Dax

00:47:43 – 00:48:10

And I think it's because of what I described. Like, prior to like, why would anyone good on the back end get into jobs from the back end? Like, I'm sure there of course there were individual examples, but broadly there was like almost no reason to. I think more recently it's attracted a much better caliber of like, you know, people that could serve as leaders. And things are getting better, but there is just a crazy messy history with it.

Dax

00:48:10 – 00:48:15

So, yeah, like I said, I don't I wouldn't, like, choose it if it wasn't for a bunch of other reasons. Well, that

Ian

00:48:15 – 00:48:30

but that's, like, always the interesting thing about all these languages. Like, the winner like, the back end, the biggest language is still PHP. Like, just in terms of raw number of, like, lines of code out there and, like, JavaScript on the front end. It's like these languages that everybody's like, oh, they're all they're terrible in all different ways. They're terrible.

Ian

00:48:30 – 00:48:52

Right? Like, everybody beats on PHP and JavaScript forever. But these are the biggest languages because they, you know, for whatever reason, some of that ugliness is useful in different ways or allows more people to access it or whatever the reason they've actually, you know, kind of survived and thrived. Even though there are other languages that are technically superior and things. Can we

Adam

00:48:52 – 00:48:56

can we hear Aaron? Aaron's working on the video. Right? Can we get a

Aaron

00:48:56 – 00:49:07

sneak peek of this video? Working on a video. Yeah. So I I did a I did a did a quick response video that I already published that I was just so freaking proud of. I was just so pumped that I turned it around.

Dax

00:49:07 – 00:49:09

So I knew that. Fast that was. I was like, what the hell? Is it the same day?

Aaron

00:49:09 – 00:49:18

Oh my god. Same day. I called I called Steve in the morning, and I was like, oh, dude. This is this is gonna be something. We have to do a video.

Aaron

00:49:18 – 00:49:26

And he was like, great. Do it. And so I, you know, recorded it and sent it over to him, and he edited it. And we got it up the same day. Super proud of that.

Aaron

00:49:26 – 00:49:41

So now I'm working on a I'm working on a new video. Hopefully, it'll be out, you know, today or tomorrow to capitalize. And it's going to be there's a little sneak peek for everybody. It's going to be called Laravel versus React. And then, yeah.

Aaron

00:49:41 – 00:49:42

It's gonna be great already.

Dax

00:49:42 – 00:49:43

You you

Ian

00:49:43 – 00:49:46

know you know Plus the name is great. Yeah. We're good. We're good.

Aaron

00:49:46 – 00:50:00

We're done. And then it's, it's kind of a it's kind of a bait and switch, and it's, Laravel versus React is a ridiculous question. You should use them both together if you want. React is very good on the front end. Laravel is very good on the back end.

Aaron

00:50:00 – 00:50:47

So it's going to be kind of an overview of, like, how you can use Laravel with React or Vue or even Next JS or LiveWire. And it's a whole, like, I'm gonna have, you know, charts and graphs drawn by Steve that show, like, where Laravel starts and stops and where React starts and stops in terms of, like, front end to back end network. And hopefully, like, my goal, and I think this is Laravel's goal as well, is not to convince people not to re to use React. It's to convince people that, like, there are back end solutions that are really thought through and powerful, and you should pair that with your favorite front end solution. I think the thing that I always see is, like, the I think Dax mentioned it where people, like, claim Next JS is gonna be their whole stack, and then it's like, everyone else is like, yo.

Aaron

00:50:47 – 00:50:59

How does that can't work at all. So hopefully hopefully, the video will convince some people that, like, Next is great. React is great. Vue is great. You should pair it with something on the back end that is powerful.

Aaron

00:51:00 – 00:51:03

That that is the hope. So we'll see we'll see if we can pull it off.

Dax

00:51:04 – 00:51:05

Nice.

Adam

00:51:05 – 00:51:06

I'm excited.

Dax

00:51:06 – 00:51:32

Yeah. Yeah. And I think and again, like, just from the systems that we see that just is how even people doing full stack JavaScript, they build a separate system for their back end that is a lot more capable than what this front end framework can do. So, yeah, it's just this weird thing. Like, I don't have it's a lot of it feels like it's everywhere, but at the same time, I go look at, like, our user base, like, like nobody's actually doing that.

Dax

00:51:32 – 00:51:34

So yeah. It's like

Aaron

00:51:34 – 00:51:37

this Once once again, the discourse and the reality are are are quite different.

Dax

00:51:38 – 00:51:38

Yeah. If you

Aaron

00:51:38 – 00:51:39

can believe that.

Ian

00:51:39 – 00:51:40

Yeah.

Aaron

00:51:40 – 00:51:48

Alright. I wanna cover 2 other things. We got we've got Adam's working on a course. Mhmm. And we've got the boys started a coffee company.

Aaron

00:51:49 – 00:51:52

So we gotta we gotta cover that. Also, we gotta give a plug to

Ian

00:51:52 – 00:51:55

buy this coffee. Just how you buy it is totally insane. I love it.

Aaron

00:51:55 – 00:52:19

Totally insane. We gotta give a plug for their podcast tomorrow FM, or how about tomorrow? I'll just give a quick rundown. The the podcast is basically, Adam says something like, man, Dax, have you ever, god, have you ever really thought that we're all just gonna, like, die one day? And Dax is like Dax will say something like, you know, I've actually thought about this a lot, and I actually used to work I used to work with a guy.

Aaron

00:52:19 – 00:52:24

And so here's here's the reality of the situation. So if you if you like if you like that vibe

Ian

00:52:24 – 00:52:25

such a good

Dax

00:52:25 – 00:52:27

that that is their podcast. Yeah.

Aaron

00:52:28 – 00:52:28

I like

Adam

00:52:28 – 00:52:33

to think of our podcast this is mostly technical. I like to think ours is, like, barely technical.

Dax

00:52:33 – 00:52:36

Barely technical. Sometimes sometimes we say some things that are technical. It happens, bro.

Aaron

00:52:36 – 00:52:47

And if you're if you're not if you're not very online, you'll get, like, 40% of it. Actually actually, Adam Adam plays the foil a lot. He's like, hey, Dax. I saw you tweeted this. What?

Aaron

00:52:47 – 00:52:47

I don't know.

Dax

00:52:47 – 00:52:48

What what do you mean? Like, what does this mean?

Aaron

00:52:48 – 00:52:50

What are you talking about?

Dax

00:52:50 – 00:52:55

And so it kinda kinda brings the audience along. So Then once a month, they'll do an hour rant on Purcell, and then Yeah.

Aaron

00:52:55 – 00:52:56

Yeah. That's what we

Dax

00:52:56 – 00:52:57

said. Yeah.

Ian

00:52:57 – 00:52:58

Then we gotta buy you off the

Aaron

00:52:59 – 00:53:02

Let's let's start coffee, man. Do we wanna go there?

Ian

00:53:02 – 00:53:08

Yeah. How did this all come about? This is fascinating. I I love anything real world. It's like physical world.

Ian

00:53:08 – 00:53:12

Can we get a box and shove some cross and ship it out? Like, that's so

Dax

00:53:12 – 00:53:14

bad. Is it fun? It's also not fun.

Adam

00:53:15 – 00:53:15

It's fun,

Dax

00:53:15 – 00:53:18

but it's also not fun. And lots of It's

Ian

00:53:18 – 00:53:22

way better than the reality. I'm sure. Like, the dream of it is amazing, though.

Aaron

00:53:22 – 00:53:31

Yeah. So back up back up a little bit, and somebody give us a story of how these 5 friends came together and how you decided to ship coffee from the terminal. Go ahead, Max.

Dax

00:53:31 – 00:53:44

Yeah. So I, this is a while ago. Prime tweeted, the Primagen for those of you that are online. He tweeted something like, oh, does anyone know a coffee company? Like, I'd love to do, like, some kind of coffee sponsorship.

Dax

00:53:45 – 00:54:07

And I have 2 friends that own coffee roasters. So I messaged him, and it was kind of like like we weren't like, oh, let's do this for sure. We kind of we're kind of like casually talking about it over the course of months. Then eventually we like, we're like, okay, let's do this for real. So we got together me, Adam, Prime and TJ, all of us know each other from streaming on Twitch.

Dax

00:54:08 – 00:54:21

And we're okay, let's, let's like do it. It's like build a coffee business. And then a week into it, Prime messages being like, Hey, so commentier just messaged me and they want to do a sponsorship. So sorry, like, can't do it.

Ian

00:54:21 – 00:54:22

Remember that when I

Adam

00:54:22 – 00:54:25

asked if there were any coffee companies that wanted to sponsor me? Well,

Dax

00:54:25 – 00:54:26

there are.

Aaron

00:54:26 – 00:54:27

There are.

Ian

00:54:27 – 00:54:29

Shock shockingly. Yeah.

Dax

00:54:29 – 00:54:35

Yeah. So we're, like, bummer. But, you know, that is a good opportunity. He should he should do it. So we're, like, okay.

Dax

00:54:35 – 00:54:44

And we kinda forgot about it. Then a few months later, he was just being, like, this sponsorship sucks, but let's do this for real. He just wasn't making, like, any money.

Adam

00:54:44 – 00:54:47

Coming to your just get taken straight right here.

Dax

00:54:47 – 00:54:52

I mean, their product is great. I mean, I don't drink coffee at all. That's another funny detail here. That's another fun. It's great.

Dax

00:54:52 – 00:54:58

I think it's disgusting. I hate coffee. I'll eat coffee ice cream. I think it's delicious, but

Aaron

00:54:58 – 00:54:59

That's the wildest part to me is that

Dax

00:54:59 – 00:55:16

you eat coffee ice cream. Yeah. It's it's great. So when we got together again, we're thinking it. So the idea was the, the, I guess the premise is, 1 influencers like Prime, people are trying to do content full time, need a way to, like, you know, make money.

Dax

00:55:16 – 00:55:32

They need to sell something. The people lining up to pay them are usually mediocre developer tool companies that, like, just don't have it. I'm just gonna be real, like right? It's like it's it's not like

Aaron

00:55:32 – 00:55:33

This is great.

Dax

00:55:33 – 00:55:50

This is great. And it's like, yeah, you can take those deals, but then now people are following you because they find you credible, and now you're like you know, it's a whole conflict of interest thing, if there's not proper alignment. If you find alignment, that's great, but, you know, it's obviously hard to find that. But it's not something like coffee, you know, that has nothing to do with with anything. No one's gonna be upset at that.

Dax

00:55:50 – 00:55:53

Well, no people were upset at that. But, generally, people are not gonna be upset

Ian

00:55:53 – 00:55:54

at that. Right.

Dax

00:55:54 – 00:56:25

And then the second thing was the developer audience is big enough that you could probably launch any kind of thing, where if you can reach millions of them, that's not like a sizable audience. And it doesn't matter that you're not, like, competing as a coffee company or, like, in this other other bubble. So, like, okay. Let's just do stuff that developers would find funny, entertaining, etcetera. We came across so I use this library for SST that helps us build, like, really fancy terminal based UIs in go.

Dax

00:56:26 – 00:56:50

And then so we're like, Oh, let's make a CLI that people can download and install and then they can, you know, buy coffee through this like little terminal app. And then we found out the same company builds another library that you just mount that same UI over SSH. So then it's totally seamless. You don't have to download or install anything, use SSH to a server and you get that exact same UI. And once we like came across that it was like, oh, we have to do it.

Dax

00:56:50 – 00:57:05

You know, we, this is obviously the way we have to do it. And initially we were like, oh yeah, we'll probably also have a website, but it's funnier just to double down on the bit and just say, if you can't figure this out, like, we don't want your money. You know? It's a good bit. I will it's crazy.

Dax

00:57:05 – 00:57:06

Early

Ian

00:57:06 – 00:57:07

days. Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron

00:57:07 – 00:57:13

From like a like a CTA or conversion perspective, it's insane, but it's a good bit.

Dax

00:57:13 – 00:57:13

It's a good bit.

Dax

00:57:13 – 00:57:17

It's like it's like super high friction, so you think it was Yeah. Such get opposite what you wanna do.

Ian

00:57:17 – 00:57:27

Actively got incredibly scary. I'm like, Aaron, like, is this thing gonna hack me? Are we sure? Like, I'm like just running this command in the terminal. Like, do they have to have tax

Dax

00:57:27 – 00:57:27

credit cards?

Ian

00:57:27 – 00:57:34

Through all my financials now. And he's just like, this is great. Like, I don't know. It was scary,

Dax

00:57:34 – 00:57:35

but that

Ian

00:57:35 – 00:57:41

there was no coffee for sale when I went in there. So apparently your first, I don't know if it was the first run or probably too early. But

Dax

00:57:41 – 00:57:57

Yeah. So for the first thing, we we did it in a more, like, ad hoc way. So we, we went with one of my roaster friends. We picked the coffee and they, like, literally shipped 5 sacks to it. Adam was here at my house when it got delivered, and it is a giant

Adam

00:57:58 – 00:58:01

pallet. Just giant bags of coffee beans. Yeah.

Dax

00:58:01 – 00:58:09

Yeah. And I think all of our reaction because it was getting slowly lowered down and we were looking at it and we were just like, that's a lot of coffee. Like, what the hell have we done?

Dax

00:58:09 – 00:58:10

Done. Yeah.

Adam

00:58:12 – 00:58:18

So we bagged all those first bag. Like, we did the whole thing. You know? Like, shipped it all. Dax did all the shipping.

Adam

00:58:18 – 00:58:21

Yeah. Wait it out. Sealed them. Not the best.

Dax

00:58:21 – 00:58:27

Liz did most of the boxing, just to give her credit. She, like, boxed a lot of the orders.

Ian

00:58:27 – 00:58:42

That's the worst. I did I did stickers once for Laravel, like, 8, 10 years ago, And it was just such an incredible nightmare. And I'm like, she would come all over the world. And it's coming back to me 3 months later on deliverable from Guatemala. And I'm like, what?

Ian

00:58:42 – 00:58:51

These people don't even know how to put their own address in. Like, the incredible number of people don't know how to do their own address. And the whole thing was just a disaster. I was like, alright. I've never wanna ship anything ever again.

Ian

00:58:51 – 00:58:53

So the you guys got that done is quite impressive.

Dax

00:58:54 – 00:59:09

Yeah. Yeah. So that was, like, initial thing is to, like, try out the concept and see if really it's I think with all these little things comes down to motivation. Like, we knew that if we did a smaller thing and went really well, we'd be, like, really motivated to, like, go to the next step. And and that it worked out, and we're all really excited.

Dax

00:59:09 – 00:59:40

So now we have a much more professional setup with, my other friend who has, like, like, they're gonna handle a lot of the logistics for us and and things like that. But what we're excited to kinda get it up and running because then it just selling coffee to terminal like that's and just having it all fulfilled and stuff, that's like the bare bones. But there's just so many funny things we can do with this concept. Like we had this idea of like popping up a random leak code challenge while you're checking out. And if you solve it, you get like, you know, percentage off.

Dax

00:59:40 – 00:59:43

There's just, like, there's, like, more friction to get more friction.

Ian

00:59:44 – 00:59:46

Yeah. Yes.

Dax

00:59:46 – 00:59:46

I'm I'm

Aaron

00:59:46 – 00:59:49

not an expert, but we might need to talk about some of this.

Ian

00:59:49 – 00:59:51

I love it. I love it.

Dax

00:59:51 – 00:59:51

If all

Ian

00:59:51 – 00:59:53

you get subscriptions in there, it's fine because

Dax

00:59:53 – 00:59:54

that one's 2 at once,

Ian

00:59:54 – 00:59:59

so it's fine. You know? Like, then I just get my coffee every month or week or whatever I want. Yeah.

Dax

00:59:59 – 01:00:11

It's just an outlet for, like, funny jokes and, like, little things like that. We're gonna have a monthly box where we have a new bag design and blend every month with just, like, some some joke, for the month.

Ian

01:00:11 – 01:00:17

So I love it. I mean, people love coffee. I mean, selling addicted substances. There's not many better businesses than that. Right?

Ian

01:00:17 – 01:00:33

Like that's like really top tier business. And yeah, I don't drink. I I used to be a big coffee drinker and I do love the taste, but I haven't drank it in, like, 10 years because it hurts my stomach and keeps me awake and whatever. So I've been off it, unfortunately. But, yeah, I I don't know.

Ian

01:00:33 – 01:00:36

I mean, I can imagine you saw the other things too. Like, yeah, when to get

Aaron

01:00:36 – 01:00:45

this done. That's kinda what that's what I wanna hear about. You keep hinting at, like, the bigger vision, and I think on your y'all's last podcast, Adam was like, oh, and then, oh, I guess I shouldn't say anything.

Dax

01:00:45 – 01:00:47

Oh, no. I can't say anything.

Aaron

01:00:47 – 01:00:50

So so now that you're now that you're here where no one is listening,

Ian

01:00:50 – 01:00:51

like, what's

Dax

01:00:51 – 01:00:51

what's the

Aaron

01:00:51 – 01:00:54

vision? What's the vision for the future here?

Dax

01:00:54 – 01:01:34

So I think one vision is to partner with a lot of other people trying to do content full time and give them their own blends and really give them really solid cuts. Like, like a lot of these partnerships that they get for things like this, I'll make like 50¢ a bag or something. We wanna give people like a majority of the profit, because so it becomes like a meaningful thing they actually care about promoting and do custom blends for them and and do fun stuff with them. So that's just on the coffee side, like just scaling to anyone that wants to that has an audience and wants to wants to sell through us. But I know Adam's been looking at some some other things as well.

Adam

01:01:34 – 01:01:51

Well, like every time I have some stupid idea, I just I feel that's in the back of my head saying, like, slow down. Like, just don't get ahead of yourself. It's so easy to run off with not a note, just like a realist and, like, let's take it very slow. I don't do things slow. Like, I'm very, like, sprint.

Adam

01:01:51 – 01:01:52

I wanna go hard.

Ian

01:01:52 – 01:01:53

Jump all in.

Adam

01:01:53 – 01:01:58

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I've, like, planned out the next 6 months in my mind, like, what we could do. And it's Mhmm.

Adam

01:01:58 – 01:02:04

It's all kind of, like, pump the brakes. Let's get No. I mean, we're not even selling coffee right now, so we gotta get No.

Ian

01:02:04 – 01:02:05

You gotta get

Dax

01:02:05 – 01:02:05

buy it.

Ian

01:02:05 – 01:02:06

Like Okay.

Dax

01:02:06 – 01:02:06

So I

Ian

01:02:07 – 01:02:08

My wife my wife loves coffee. I tried

Dax

01:02:08 – 01:02:09

to buy

Ian

01:02:09 – 01:02:11

her some coffee. I can't buy any coffee. So it's

Adam

01:02:11 – 01:02:12

sold out within 20 hours.

Dax

01:02:12 – 01:02:17

Just saying. The the next round will be like it won't be like these runs. It'll be continuously available.

Adam

01:02:18 – 01:02:19

On demand.

Dax

01:02:19 – 01:02:34

I'm not gonna tell you guys specifically, but just to give context of what Adam means by when he says he just he's like, you know, off to the races. He got wholesale quotes for an item that costs like 100 of dollars per unit.

Aaron

01:02:34 – 01:02:41

Perfect. Yep. That sounds that is so on brand. I cannot describe how on brand that is.

Ian

01:02:41 – 01:02:53

It's like the first day I passed my head is like a bronze statue of Dax's head, and it's just, like, glorious. Just a glorious beard, a bronze head. It's just like Yeah. I would buy that. I would buy that and put it right behind me here somewhere.

Ian

01:02:53 – 01:02:54

Like, it's just

Aaron

01:02:54 – 01:03:00

I'm gonna hazard a guess that it's that cool matte black electric kettle. That's that's my guess.

Dax

01:03:00 – 01:03:04

It's it's ideal. You're extremely close. It's, basically. Yes.

Aaron

01:03:04 – 01:03:07

I think UGG sold those for a little while. They're like,

Dax

01:03:08 – 01:03:12

it's stuff from Fellow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's, like, a daily thing.

Dax

01:03:12 – 01:03:13

They do branded.

Adam

01:03:13 – 01:03:19

They're like they're like sprint or edge onto your yeah. So, like, terminal branded copy making gear. You bet.

Ian

01:03:19 – 01:03:29

But I mean, even if, like, sometimes you gotta take that energy. Right? And, like, instead of, like, like going down more products, go down more connections of influencers. Right? Like if you had yeah.

Ian

01:03:29 – 01:03:35

10 times more people selling just the coffee that would also be super exciting and obviously profitable and all that stuff.

Adam

01:03:36 – 01:03:47

Companies, like, there's some brands in the developer space well known that we're talking with, doing stuff, having a blend for their company, their tool or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of different angles that we could go.

Ian

01:03:47 – 01:03:51

Conferences even or whatever, one off things for big conferences.

Dax

01:03:51 – 01:03:52

Well, speaking of talk, can we

Adam

01:03:52 – 01:03:53

talk about that stuff? Yeah.

Dax

01:03:53 – 01:03:58

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's not confirmed, but I think we're gonna show up to Laracon.

Ian

01:03:59 – 01:03:59

Oh, yes.

Adam

01:03:59 – 01:04:00

Oh, yeah.

Aaron

01:04:00 – 01:04:01

Are you going? Breaking news.

Ian

01:04:02 – 01:04:03

Breaking news. There?

Dax

01:04:03 – 01:04:03

Nice.

Ian

01:04:03 – 01:04:05

Aaron's hosting it, and I'll be there. Yeah.

Dax

01:04:05 – 01:04:08

Go on. And, yeah, I imagine Aaron would go because,

Dax

01:04:08 – 01:04:08

you know

Ian

01:04:08 – 01:04:09

skip yeah.

Aaron

01:04:09 – 01:04:13

It is it is in it is in Dallas, and and I am hosting it.

Dax

01:04:13 – 01:04:13

So yeah.

Adam

01:04:14 – 01:04:15

Oh, hopefully it checks out.

Aaron

01:04:15 – 01:04:16

I'll be there. Yeah.

Dax

01:04:16 – 01:04:22

It's like me and react Miami. Like, I make such a big deal out of it. I haven't used react in 3 years, but it's just it's convenient.

Ian

01:04:22 – 01:04:32

You know? Yeah. I'm already planning my empire where I'm just gonna build a website that does the SSH in 4 people, and I'm just gonna, like, take a little a little cut.

Aaron

01:04:32 – 01:04:33

I'm just gonna

Ian

01:04:33 – 01:04:39

be a middleman. There's no even better than selling addictive substances is being a middleman to addictive substances.

Dax

01:04:39 – 01:05:03

No. But here's you joke, but, part of what we're working on is, like, the most absurdly well designed SDKs you've ever seen. Like we're working with the people that did, Stripes APIs and they have this new product that just help people ship SDKs that are as good as, you know, Stripes. Oh, that's interesting. And so our API, which we're using, is also gonna be public be a public API.

Dax

01:05:03 – 01:05:06

So you can build your own coffee ordering experiences.

Adam

01:05:06 – 01:05:11

In the weirdest places you want. Like, put them wherever you want. You can even put them on a website

Dax

01:05:11 – 01:05:11

if you wanted to. Yeah. Yeah.

Dax

01:05:11 – 01:05:12

We'll put

Ian

01:05:12 – 01:05:18

them right in the office. Yeah. Right in my help desk product, it'll be like, order more copy. Like Yeah. Exactly.

Ian

01:05:18 – 01:05:19

Right.

Aaron

01:05:20 – 01:05:31

My absolute favorite part of this is y'all have been in software for so long, and you've just been looking at those sweet, sweet software margins, and you're like, that's too much. Yeah. We gotta sell coffee.

Ian

01:05:32 – 01:05:33

Sell coffee, man.

Aaron

01:05:33 – 01:05:34

We gotta sell coffee, man.

Ian

01:05:35 – 01:05:48

What do you Every business. Right? Every business just comes down to distribution. And so like, you guys are known, you have friends who have a lot of distribution, you have your own distribution, like, yeah. Once you have distribution, then you just find yourself sell into it.

Ian

01:05:48 – 01:05:53

Right? Like, it could be software, but it could be other things. And so that's great.

Adam

01:05:53 – 01:06:12

It's funny, like, knowing all the ecommerce things are just like being in this space for a long time, just being on Twitter even. You like hear all these things like drip marketing and all this stuff, like the stuff you're supposed to do. And it, like, just doesn't matter for us because Prime can, like, stream for 2 hours and get more impressions than we'd ever get with some email campaign or whatever.

Aaron

01:06:12 – 01:06:12

Yep.

Adam

01:06:12 – 01:06:22

It's just a really interesting dynamic where you've got already this very active engaged audience. We don't really have to think about, like, marketing or doing that kind of stuff. It just happens kinda naturally.

Ian

01:06:22 – 01:06:32

And those things can be the, like, the optimizations later. Right? Like, people are trying to start with that, but really that's your, like, later optimization. Cause it's like, okay, once we've like, we're,

Dax

01:06:32 – 01:06:33

you have no idea.

Ian

01:06:33 – 01:06:40

So much initially, then eventually it's like, oh, we, we probably should be emailing these people who bought from us before to buy from us again and, like, stuff like that.

Dax

01:06:40 – 01:06:40

Yeah.

Ian

01:06:40 – 01:06:41

But it doesn't have to

Dax

01:06:41 – 01:06:42

be the

Ian

01:06:42 – 01:06:44

first thing. It's like a a secondary thing after you're going.

Aaron

01:06:45 – 01:06:52

Do either any of y'all listen to Nathan Barry's billionaire creator podcast or whatever it's called? No. No. No.

Dax

01:06:52 – 01:06:54

I don't drink coffee. I don't listen to podcasts, produce both. Yeah.

Dax

01:06:54 – 01:06:55

Thanks for coming on the show. Same, actually, to be honest with you. He's he's been talking. What can

Dax

01:06:55 – 01:06:56

I do?

Aaron

01:07:02 – 01:07:04

Yeah. This is this is why I'm paired with Ian

Dax

01:07:04 – 01:07:06

and Adam's paired with tags.

Ian

01:07:06 – 01:07:07

Otherwise, I'm just gonna be a can't

Dax

01:07:07 – 01:07:11

it's like such perfect. It's like the exact same situation. It's so weird.

Ian

01:07:11 – 01:07:12

Really is. Adam and

Aaron

01:07:12 – 01:07:13

I are both light mode.

Dax

01:07:13 – 01:07:15

I decide Ian and Dax

Aaron

01:07:15 – 01:07:19

are both dark mode on that side. Okay. Focus. Focus. Focus.

Aaron

01:07:19 – 01:07:46

This podcast has started talking a lot about how, creators already own distribution and are moving backwards into making brand deals. And I feel like this is this is prime no. Pun intended, I guess. This is this is a prime example of that where it's, like, I could sell Cometeer for 50¢, or we could like, I could sell Cometeer for 50¢, or we can do a bunch of hard work and get, you know, a much fatter margin on our own coffee. And I like Steve and I are actively thinking about that.

Aaron

01:07:46 – 01:07:54

I don't, you know, I don't wanna take brand deals forever. I wanna own something. And so this this really lines up, for that in in my mind.

Dax

01:07:55 – 01:07:57

Yeah. Yeah. No. It's yeah. You see it everywhere.

Dax

01:07:57 – 01:08:15

It's, almost to a degree where I'm, like, kind of I'm like is this a good thing for the world? Because if you go anywhere like, to any store there's, like, some product being featured. It's always a celebrity product. Like, we were at Target the other day and he's he like, The Rock launches new brand. Yep.

Dax

01:08:15 – 01:08:26

I love The Rock, and I think he's awesome, and I'm excited for him. But, like, everything, like, all those out like, all those gin Yep. Like, yeah, there's there's a bunch of, like, alcohol companies with, celebrities. That

Dax

01:08:26 – 01:08:26

was the

Ian

01:08:26 – 01:08:27

playbook. Right? Yep.

Dax

01:08:27 – 01:08:47

Yeah. So it's like, at this point, can you make a product without first being a I feel we're getting to that point where it's, it's like kind of going into that direction. But, yeah, it is such a crazy advantage because you're the main cost of any product is what's your cost of acquisition, and it's basically 0 when you're in this category.

Ian

01:08:48 – 01:09:01

Yeah. And I mean, in the old days, right, everything was so much more centralized. Like, oh, I'm gonna advertise in front of Seinfeld, Then I'm guaranteed 80,000,000 people to see my product. Right. And so like that's where everything went, but now you don't have any centralized points like that.

Ian

01:09:01 – 01:09:25

So it's like, okay, well, how do I get in front of people while people still pay attention to you know, whatever their influencer is that they like, whether it's a YouTube star or a musician or whatever. And so it's like, well, now that's how we get products in front of people, right, is we go to them instead. And, there was actually a super interesting article about McDonald's the other day. I think it was New York Times or something. It was like, probably like 20 years ago, everybody was like, McDonald's is the worst.

Ian

01:09:25 – 01:09:36

It's gonna kill you. Right? All this stuff. And then they started making all these deals with, like, musicians, and they they basically did this. And, like, now it's, you know, more than doubled in stock price in the last 20 years years or whatever.

Ian

01:09:36 – 01:09:43

It's like they just had the playbook a little ahead of everybody, but they did all these brand partnerships and influencer partnerships and all this stuff.

Dax

01:09:43 – 01:09:46

So it's not gonna kill you anymore. It's probably gonna kill you. It

Aaron

01:09:46 – 01:09:46

doesn't matter.

Dax

01:09:46 – 01:09:48

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

Ian

01:09:48 – 01:09:48

But somebody else got

Aaron

01:09:48 – 01:09:49

rich off of it, which is awesome.

Ian

01:09:49 – 01:09:54

90 percent of America has had a meal at McDonald's in the last week or whatever. Right? So it's like,

Adam

01:09:54 – 01:09:56

like literally it's something that's like

Ian

01:09:56 – 01:09:59

85 or 90%. And so, yeah. So 80%

Adam

01:09:59 – 01:10:00

of America's obese.

Ian

01:10:00 – 01:10:02

So when I know that that that

Aaron

01:10:02 – 01:10:03

that should work, but,

Ian

01:10:06 – 01:10:07

But, yeah.

Dax

01:10:08 – 01:10:31

Yeah. So I but I think, the root of it all is, we actually we genuinely I don't think any of us care if this is, like, massively successful or not, which is very different from anything else I work on. It's just like we all like each other and it's nice to use to hang out. And, especially with with these conferencing we're doing, it's like Mhmm. A very easy way for all of us to get together and have it all be paid by the this larger thing.

Dax

01:10:31 – 01:10:39

So if it's just breaking even and it's a way for us to, like, have a good time, it's that's really all it needs to do. But we'll

Aaron

01:10:39 – 01:10:42

see. Surprisingly heartwarming from Dax.

Dax

01:10:43 – 01:10:45

So it wasn't wasn't on my beacon.

Ian

01:10:45 – 01:10:46

My arm over there. Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron

01:10:46 – 01:10:52

I don't need to crush the souls of my enemies. I just wanna hang out with my friends. It's it's not what I expected.

Ian

01:10:52 – 01:11:04

I'm always fascinated by business people and, like, they're like, what I do to relax is I have another business. I have this other business over here. This is my relaxation business. That's separate from my actual business. Right?

Ian

01:11:05 – 01:11:08

Yeah. So that that you just see that all the time. Like, I've But

Dax

01:11:08 – 01:11:19

but, like, Jeff, I with this type of thing, I just feel like we can't lose. So I'll give you a perfect example. Right? So we shipped out all these boxes, and it's the first time shipping everything out. And, like, people were getting them in some horrible conditions.

Dax

01:11:19 – 01:11:29

Like, they were They all got crashed. It looked like they got just destroyed. But that just became a meme. Like, people were posting about it, and this became a joke. So it's like, we you just can't lose with with stuff like this.

Dax

01:11:29 – 01:11:29

You

Ian

01:11:29 – 01:11:30

know. Yeah.

Aaron

01:11:30 – 01:11:36

Like, let's go back. You're coming to Laracon? What's all everybody? I know Prime is is gonna be speaking. Yeah.

Aaron

01:11:36 – 01:11:37

So what's the story?

Dax

01:11:38 – 01:11:58

So we are trying to so basically, what we did for React Miami was a little bit ad hoc. We were trying to formalize it a little bit more where we show up to a conference, a couple days before. We'll do, like, a bunch of streaming to get people excited online. We'll do a custom blend with a custom bag for people at the conference. Like, they can buy it there.

Dax

01:11:58 – 01:12:10

They'll be in our store a week advance. Maybe the conference can buy a bunch to give out speaker gifts or or something like that. So we we used to and then we we serve the coffee there when

Aaron

01:12:10 – 01:12:10

Ah, cool.

Dax

01:12:10 – 01:12:11

For the people

Ian

01:12:11 – 01:12:12

that go there.

Aaron

01:12:12 – 01:12:13

Yeah. I love it.

Dax

01:12:13 – 01:12:28

Yeah. So for React Miami, like, just on Twitter, we did, like, more than, like, 10,000,000 impressions or so. And then Prime streams each day, there were, like, 30 to 40000 people that watched. So these are, like, pretty crazy numbers that are hard to tap into otherwise.

Aaron

01:12:29 – 01:12:29

Yeah.

Dax

01:12:29 – 01:12:34

And we're pretty cheap for for if you look at, like like, CPM wise, like

Aaron

01:12:34 – 01:12:36

because y'all are in for the friendships.

Dax

01:12:36 – 01:12:38

Yeah. So you don't care. Yeah. You don't care if

Ian

01:12:38 – 01:12:39

Literally, I was

Dax

01:12:39 – 01:12:39

in time

Adam

01:12:39 – 01:12:43

to get in. Yeah. That covers our costs, and we get to hang out for a week. It's kinda

Aaron

01:12:43 – 01:12:49

worth Are y'all gonna are y'all gonna come to the Aaron Francis studio of light and sound and do some streaming out of here? Yeah. Of course. Wait. Yeah.

Dax

01:12:49 – 01:12:51

That's such a good idea. Amazing.

Aaron

01:12:51 – 01:12:53

Yes. Of course. Idea. That

Dax

01:12:54 – 01:13:03

is a really good idea. Yeah. We'll get stuff nailed down and we'll see. Because the big ability here is, like, if we do have an Airbnb, we don't know what, like, the Internet or situation is. Sure.

Dax

01:13:03 – 01:13:04

That would that would be pretty helpful.

Aaron

01:13:05 – 01:13:12

Yeah. Yeah. You can't all stay here because it's literally my office and there are no beds, but you're welcome to come up here and stream.

Dax

01:13:12 – 01:13:15

It's it's still a separate it's not like part of your house. Right? It's,

Aaron

01:13:15 – 01:13:16

Correct. It is not. Yeah.

Dax

01:13:17 – 01:13:17

Okay.

Aaron

01:13:17 – 01:13:24

You are welcome to swing by the house, but probably not stay there for very long either. It's kinda so we we got a lot going on at the house.

Dax

01:13:24 – 01:13:35

Lot of babies. I can't afford degenerates just streaming all day at the kitchen table. Oh. It was it was wild when they doing that in my house. It was, one of those

Aaron

01:13:35 – 01:13:36

fun. I watched a lot of it.

Dax

01:13:36 – 01:13:50

Yeah. It it was super fun. 1 of those friends one of those friends, like, came by to pick something up. He walks into the door, and she sees Prime just go up to a camera and just start, like, thrusting.

Ian

01:13:50 – 01:13:51

Yep.

Dax

01:13:51 – 01:13:53

Just a bunch of, like, crazy thrusting maneuvers.

Aaron

01:13:54 – 01:13:54

Yeah.

Dax

01:13:54 – 01:14:01

And I just saw her face as being like like, what is going? And she because Liz's friends just do not understand what to do for a living.

Aaron

01:14:01 – 01:14:04

You never you never want one of your off line friends

Ian

01:14:04 – 01:14:06

to clear water and clear it at all.

Dax

01:14:06 – 01:14:09

And she saw that, and that's all she saw until she left.

Dax

01:14:09 – 01:14:09

Yep.

Ian

01:14:13 – 01:14:14

Oh, man.

Dax

01:14:14 – 01:14:14

Like, that's how we make money.

Ian

01:14:15 – 01:14:26

Part with, like, conferences and stuff, though. It's like everybody wants to see you guys. Right? It's like but how many conferences can you actually do in a year and things like that? There are these like just limits of like, yeah, you know what you can do.

Ian

01:14:26 – 01:14:26

But

Dax

01:14:26 – 01:14:29

yeah, but the conferencing is more for fun. Like, it's just

Ian

01:14:29 – 01:14:29

Yeah. Yeah.

Dax

01:14:29 – 01:14:36

Would be, like, once a quarter, which I try to find a conference to do and Little vacation. Talk together. Yeah. Basically.

Ian

01:14:37 – 01:14:38

But Get out more.

Aaron

01:14:38 – 01:14:41

That's gonna be fun. I'm so glad I'm so glad y'all are gonna come.

Ian

01:14:41 – 01:14:43

Yeah. This is awesome. If not,

Aaron

01:14:43 – 01:14:47

try to secure the deal tomorrow on your podcast with Taylor Live on air. Be like Yeah. Hey.

Ian

01:14:47 – 01:14:48

I just wanted

Aaron

01:14:48 – 01:14:49

to check-in on this.

Ian

01:14:49 – 01:14:55

First item. First item. Yeah. Close the deal. Yeah.

Aaron

01:14:55 – 01:14:59

Alright. Are we done with coffee? I wanna hear about Adam's course, or do we have more coffee?

Dax

01:14:59 – 01:15:08

No. That's that's it for coffee. Like I said, the summary is coffee from the terminal, you can buy it soon. I don't drink coffee, but you should still trust me that

Aaron

01:15:08 – 01:15:16

it's good coffee. Also, it's really good. What I said earlier about your podcast, this is a perfect example. It's like, hey. You do you wanna start a coffee company?

Aaron

01:15:16 – 01:15:21

Well, I don't actually drink coffee, but I've got 4 friends that are coffee grocers, and I know this guy. It's like, oh.

Dax

01:15:21 – 01:15:21

Yeah.

Aaron

01:15:21 – 01:15:24

Yeah. That's that sounds about right. Yeah.

Ian

01:15:26 – 01:15:37

It's at it's at terminal dot shop, so that's where you can get it. And there's a a crazy ass command line terminal that you paste in, and just hope it all goes okay. It'll be fine. Don't worry about it.

Aaron

01:15:37 – 01:15:40

By the way, the reset shop That's where you can't get it. You have to

Dax

01:15:40 – 01:15:53

go to your terminal. Yeah. If you can't SSH, we don't want your money. That's our slogan. By the way, the reason I know all these people, Adam, is because I lived in a city around other people.

Dax

01:15:53 – 01:15:55

And it's one of the benefits of staying in a city.

Aaron

01:15:55 – 01:15:56

Bringing it back.

Dax

01:15:56 – 01:15:56

There you go.

Ian

01:15:56 – 01:15:57

There's Okay.

Aaron

01:15:57 – 01:16:00

That's that's the callback right there. Right.

Adam

01:16:00 – 01:16:04

I know all these people too. Sorry. I know all the people from the Internet. So there you go.

Aaron

01:16:04 – 01:16:06

Oh, you don't you don't know any coffee or the Yeah.

Dax

01:16:07 – 01:16:09

No. You don't know anyone that can do anything in real life.

Ian

01:16:10 – 01:16:14

No. Anyone that has any skills in the physical world? I just have to know you, how

Adam

01:16:14 – 01:16:16

I get the benefits of all of those people. Yeah.

Dax

01:16:16 – 01:16:19

No. I know. It's great. I'm saying someone had to live in New York. Okay.

Dax

01:16:19 – 01:16:21

In this whole chain of events.

Aaron

01:16:23 – 01:16:31

Yeah. So, Adam, you are working are you working with, Joel Hooks on this badass stuff? Okay. Tell us. You're working on a full on course.

Adam

01:16:31 – 01:16:45

A full on course. It's you know, Joel, the way he puts it, it's like a full on small business. It's like It is. It's I wanna, like, teach. I really do genuinely want that to be like, as a kid, before I wanna do anything before I do anything about computers, I wanted to be a teacher.

Adam

01:16:45 – 01:17:00

Like, I wanna be a college professor for some reason. I don't I really don't know why that specifically like, I didn't wanna be a high school teacher. I wanna be a call maybe it's a little more sophisticated. I've Mhmm. I've always wanted to teach, and I've always enjoyed, like, explaining things to people, like, to a fault that you know, it's, like, annoying.

Adam

01:17:00 – 01:17:19

People get tired of me, like, trying to explain something they don't even wanna learn, that kind of thing. So it's an outlet. It's like, now I'm finally I'm finally taking steps. It's always been this thing I I thought I'd get to in my career, and I just never kind of, like, made the time always busy with other stuff and still busy with other stuff. But but, yeah, I'm I'm pretty excited.

Adam

01:17:19 – 01:17:25

Like, we're we're doing kind of the first steps, like, have a paid workshop next month. Mhmm. It's kind of the first

Ian

01:17:25 – 01:17:26

Oh, wow.

Adam

01:17:26 – 01:17:37

Big step. But it's gonna be I mean, it's gonna be like the rest of this year really. Like, the first full thing you could buy and, like, take a course will be sometime probably in the fall. Yeah. I'm pumped.

Adam

01:17:37 – 01:17:41

And then I see you, like, you're doing a course and you're like, yeah. We're gonna we're gonna launch it next month.

Dax

01:17:41 – 01:17:42

Like, I'm sorry.

Ian

01:17:42 – 01:17:43

What's the end?

Dax

01:17:44 – 01:17:45

How do you do this?

Aaron

01:17:45 – 01:17:49

Well, well, I'm not running a startup, and I'm not running a coffee start up.

Adam

01:17:49 – 01:17:50

Selling coffee. It's true.

Aaron

01:17:50 – 01:18:08

Yeah. So I I have a little I have a little bit more time, and I don't follow like, Joel has a very good prescribed method where you, like, do a little freebie, then you do a course and or I'm sorry. Then you do a workshop, and then you do a bunch of emails. Like, we're we're just not doing any of that. And so it cuts the it cuts the timeline a lot.

Adam

01:18:09 – 01:18:24

I do love, like, working with Joel. I just having someone kinda, like, tell me what to do because I feel like if I were just doing it on my own, I would never do it. I would just never get there. But now I have, like, people that are, like, stakeholders and, like, asking things of me

Dax

01:18:24 – 01:18:24

Yep.

Adam

01:18:24 – 01:18:27

That's been very helpful. Like, I feel like I've finally taken real steps.

Aaron

01:18:27 – 01:18:44

So I wanna hear I wanna hear about the process of working with them because it's it's a very interesting business model for them where they find people like you, talented creators, and, like, basically, you know, midwife them through the process of creating creating a course.

Dax

01:18:44 – 01:18:44

And so

Aaron

01:18:45 – 01:18:51

Yeah. So, like, how did y'all get hooked up, and what's it been like working with the because they've got a whole team. It's like 8, 10 people over there. Yeah.

Adam

01:18:51 – 01:18:54

Yeah. It's I mean, it's a lot of the Egghead folks, I think.

Aaron

01:18:54 – 01:18:54

I think

Dax

01:18:54 – 01:18:54

Adam

01:18:54 – 01:19:20

can say that. I mean, it's like he's got this team that has worked on developer education for so long and together and, like, they're all effective working together. And they just kind of like the the way he puts it, I think, that I can say this, is that they're, like, taking bets on different creators to kind of, like, hit a certain niche. So they they, you know, they they have got this team. They they do a lot of work to kinda, like, do the stuff I wouldn't wanna do.

Adam

01:19:20 – 01:19:38

It's the way he puts it. Like, I get to just focus on, like, teaching the thing and making videos and and trying to, like, understand, you know, what are my students gonna wanna learn? How am I gonna take them from a to b. And then they do everything else, like the website and, say, manage the live workshops and all that kind of stuff. They sell the seats, and they do Mhmm.

Adam

01:19:38 – 01:19:46

The stuff that's just like, I'm sure I would I would spend a lot of time doing that stuff and then maybe even enjoy it because I'm a programmer, like, building the website. That'd be fun.

Aaron

01:19:46 – 01:19:47

Yeah.

Adam

01:19:47 – 01:19:55

It's so nice to not be thinking about that or, like, building, like, a a language or what's the word? The learning an l learning

Aaron

01:19:55 – 01:19:56

call it? Platform? Yeah.

Dax

01:19:56 – 01:19:56

Yeah. Yeah.

Adam

01:19:56 – 01:20:05

Yeah. Like, everyone who ends up doing a course ends up building, like, their own platform for teaching, like, for hosting their video course. And they're doing that, but I don't have to do it. So it's Yeah.

Dax

01:20:05 – 01:20:06

It's nice. I like it.

Aaron

01:20:06 – 01:20:13

And they they send presumably, they send out email. You give them content, but they send out emails and set up drip sequences and do

Dax

01:20:13 – 01:20:14

all that stuff.

Adam

01:20:14 – 01:20:15

Yeah. They do all that stuff.

Aaron

01:20:15 – 01:20:19

They do everything except recording and editing. Right? You edit your own stuff?

Adam

01:20:19 – 01:20:35

I'm editing my own stuff, but, you know, they they do have people for that. Like, they do have an editor that, and for some of the people that they've done courses with, all the editing was done there in house by their people. So Cool. That's an option. I you know, I took screencasting.com, so I feel like I've heard

Aaron

01:20:35 – 01:20:36

of that. That's great.

Ian

01:20:36 – 01:20:37

Yeah. I feel like I can

Adam

01:20:37 – 01:20:41

kinda make my way around Wow. The ScreenFlow, and I'm figuring it out.

Aaron

01:20:41 – 01:20:43

That's amazing. What a great domain. That's really cool.

Adam

01:20:43 – 01:20:46

Yeah. Yeah. Excellent course. Excellent course.

Aaron

01:20:46 – 01:20:48

Thanks. You also have not mentioned what your course is about or what

Dax

01:20:48 – 01:20:49

your course is about. I was

Ian

01:20:49 – 01:20:50

just gonna find

Dax

01:20:50 – 01:20:50

it because

Dax

01:20:50 – 01:20:53

Yes. Yes. People to take care of that stuff. Yeah.

Adam

01:20:54 – 01:21:19

Not so not so good at the marketing. So it's pro AWS. It's basically like so I started on AWS, like, 10 years ago, but I'm very much like a practical, like, web developer. I'm I'm a startup founder, so, like, I'm very like, I wanna build things, and I'm not like an enterprise y. Like, a lot of the cloud is made up of, like, enterprise education, like teaching very large teams how to leverage the cloud.

Adam

01:21:19 – 01:21:40

But there's kind of this gap for, like, I'm a small team or I'm a startup or I'm an individual that wants to build big powerful things, and I wanna leverage AWS to do it. Like, it's basically my consulting work. So I I did consulting for startups for a few years independent. And I'm basically doing that, like taking small startup teams and helping them leverage AWS. So it's it's that angle.

Adam

01:21:40 – 01:21:43

It's like you're a web developer, but you wanna build on AWS.

Aaron

01:21:44 – 01:21:55

And I know that you're too nice to brag on yourself, but you also speed ran all of the AWS certifications and got them all within, like, a month or, like, 8 days or something silly like that. Gosh.

Adam

01:21:55 – 01:21:58

It's been a few years ago now, but I did I did them in 6 weeks.

Dax

01:21:58 – 01:21:58

So I did

Adam

01:21:59 – 01:22:06

there's, like, 12 of them. I did 2 a week. It was sort of like a parlor trick. Like, people ask me, like, what's the value of certification? Like, how do how do you feel about certification?

Adam

01:22:07 – 01:22:09

I don't know. I don't really care. We're talking

Aaron

01:22:09 – 01:22:10

about it now. So it works.

Adam

01:22:10 – 01:22:12

Yes. Yeah. No. I thought it'd be like a fun, like

Dax

01:22:13 – 01:22:15

It made you a hero, Adam. They literally

Dax

01:22:15 – 01:22:15

were like

Dax

01:22:15 – 01:22:15

They took me.

Ian

01:22:15 – 01:22:16

I'm not a hero.

Adam

01:22:16 – 01:22:19

So it's problems. Surely. Yeah. Yeah. No.

Adam

01:22:19 – 01:22:23

It's like a fun challenge. It was like, can I can I do these really, really fast?

Ian

01:22:24 – 01:22:31

Yeah. We use AWS and I feel like that's just a great course topic because it's probably, it's like an infinite source.

Adam

01:22:31 – 01:22:32

It's infinite. It really is. Yeah.

Ian

01:22:32 – 01:22:39

There's so much stuff in there. Nobody has any idea how it works. Like, you're always scared touching anything. It's like Yeah.

Adam

01:22:39 – 01:22:42

And and for, like, if you're a web developer, it's a very narrow slice of it

Dax

01:22:42 – 01:22:44

that you really need or have problems.

Ian

01:22:44 – 01:22:45

Yeah. Yeah.

Adam

01:22:45 – 01:22:50

So it's, like, just helping guide people through this very, like, vast landscape.

Dax

01:22:50 – 01:22:51

Yeah.

Adam

01:22:51 – 01:22:53

And like, here's the stuff that matters to you.

Dax

01:22:53 – 01:23:03

And the thing with AWS is there's always like 5 ways to do the same thing. But there's actually only one that you should pick. And no one ever picks that one. So again, this is just teaching them what what the right one is.

Ian

01:23:03 – 01:23:10

Weird stuff like, do I need the API gateway thing? And I'm getting charged more money for some weird reason. I don't totally understand, and I like this.

Dax

01:23:10 – 01:23:13

Yeah. Yeah. Because every little trick in the photo.

Aaron

01:23:13 – 01:23:31

Yeah. I feel like this is this is lining up exactly with my database course experience in that a lot of, like, the education is curation. Like, there's so much information and literally 10% of it applies to, like, a modern web developer.

Dax

01:23:31 – 01:23:32

And I feel like a lot of

Aaron

01:23:32 – 01:23:40

my job is to read through everything and then figure out, like, okay. Here's the important stuff. Do you feel the same way?

Adam

01:23:40 – 01:23:56

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And and, like, the one advantage I think I'll have going into teaching this stuff is, like, I'm I'm having a hard time getting the material done because I'm still, like, managing a very large consumer site deployed on AWS that I've been building for a decade. So, like

Aaron

01:23:56 – 01:23:56

Mhmm.

Adam

01:23:56 – 01:24:10

I I still do this work. It's not like a distant thing to me that, like, I don't have practical experience with. Mhmm. I think that's a big advantage. Like, when you know the thing because you build on the thing, it's like I can't really go wrong as long as I'm staying rooted in that work.

Adam

01:24:10 – 01:24:17

Like, I know that my advice plays out in a real world scenario because I'm living it, like, right now.

Aaron

01:24:17 – 01:24:20

Yeah. Wow. That's cool. I'm excited for you. Proaws.dev?

Adam

01:24:22 – 01:24:24

Dot dev. They did buy the dot com.

Aaron

01:24:24 – 01:24:24

Dot for

Dax

01:24:24 – 01:24:25

They did.

Adam

01:24:25 – 01:24:28

Some money. Yeah. It it just redirects to that dev. But Oh.

Ian

01:24:29 – 01:24:30

Wow, man. That's Advantage.

Aaron

01:24:30 – 01:24:31

Is that the other way

Adam

01:24:31 – 01:24:32

with the right people?

Dax

01:24:36 – 01:24:41

It's you're kinda like, it's like you're signed to a label. That's what it sounds like. Kinda.

Adam

01:24:41 – 01:24:42

Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron

01:24:42 – 01:24:45

Or like a publishing house, like, like a book publisher.

Dax

01:24:45 – 01:24:47

Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron

01:24:47 – 01:24:48

It's a very cool model.

Dax

01:24:48 – 01:24:59

Yeah. Here's a funny thing. So Adam is using SSE for the course. I believe this course is gonna do extremely well. I think it's gonna make more money than we do at SSE.

Dax

01:25:00 – 01:25:01

Jesus.

Ian

01:25:02 – 01:25:04

Oh. I should I we

Adam

01:25:04 – 01:25:08

should work out some kind of deal here, I guess. No. I should be giving back to the the hand that feeds

Ian

01:25:10 – 01:25:17

me. That's amazing. I think this is like the open source dilemma. Right? It's like people are making money on all your work.

Ian

01:25:17 – 01:25:17

And how do

Dax

01:25:17 – 01:25:25

you navigate that? Yeah. I'm actually no, I think it's fine. Like, we're just 3 people. It's not hard to find ways to sustain ourselves.

Dax

01:25:25 – 01:25:26

So Oh,

Ian

01:25:26 – 01:25:28

it's great exposure to it. Of course, as well. Yeah.

Aaron

01:25:28 – 01:25:30

It does. It does sound hard. Yeah.

Dax

01:25:30 – 01:25:30

Steve and

Aaron

01:25:30 – 01:25:36

I are just 2 people. And we're like, oh, man. Where's the money gonna come from? So Okay. Alright.

Aaron

01:25:36 – 01:25:40

One one last thing I forgot. Lyricon blend. It's got a what are you gonna call it?

Dax

01:25:40 – 01:25:41

Are you gonna call it, like,

Aaron

01:25:41 – 01:25:43

a mambo blend? Or There's some names

Dax

01:25:43 – 01:25:44

floating around. Ideas.

Adam

01:25:44 – 01:25:45

I don't think we should leak

Ian

01:25:45 – 01:25:46

it yet.

Dax

01:25:46 – 01:25:47

Yeah. No. Okay. That's fine. But

Dax

01:25:48 – 01:25:48

we don't

Dax

01:25:48 – 01:25:54

we don't know what it is. If you have any idea, please send it to us because obviously, we we don't know what makes for a funny joke.

Adam

01:25:54 – 01:25:55

David is a Laravel developer. Oh, that's true.

Aaron

01:25:55 – 01:25:56

We do have one. Laravel

Dax

01:25:56 – 01:25:56

developer. Yes.

Dax

01:25:56 – 01:25:57

You do have one.

Adam

01:25:57 – 01:26:01

He's been great to, like, ideate on this front. Yeah. Mhmm. Nice. Yeah.

Adam

01:26:01 – 01:26:03

We could use any more ideas. Throw him out.

Aaron

01:26:03 – 01:26:04

Well, if you need yeah.

Dax

01:26:04 – 01:26:04

If you

Aaron

01:26:04 – 01:26:11

need a vibe check before you go to press, just send it to me and Ian, and we'll tell you, like, oh, that's gonna work or that's not gonna work.

Dax

01:26:12 – 01:26:15

Maybe we should make fun of PHP developers. Maybe that should be the angle.

Adam

01:26:15 – 01:26:16

That is your normal

Dax

01:26:17 – 01:26:17

shit. Like I said, you

Aaron

01:26:17 – 01:26:22

need a 5 jack. Send it send it to us before you print it, and we will

Dax

01:26:22 – 01:26:23

help you. Yeah.

Aaron

01:26:24 – 01:26:26

What an interesting idea.

Ian

01:26:26 – 01:26:35

There's a lot of subtleties in there, though. There's, like, some people just consider themselves Laravel developers and not PHP developers. And so there's a whole there's internal Wow. Factions.

Dax

01:26:35 – 01:26:36

Internal strength.

Dax

01:26:36 – 01:26:36

I feel

Adam

01:26:36 – 01:26:41

like there's some very obvious names for for what we would do that people. It's definitely a couple of things. Yeah.

Dax

01:26:41 – 01:26:41

Yeah.

Adam

01:26:41 – 01:26:43

There's a couple of very obvious.

Aaron

01:26:43 – 01:26:52

Do you remember the, the funny error that we always used to get in PHP? Unexpected, like, t punonucoditem or whatever that was?

Ian

01:26:52 – 01:27:03

Like a, Hebrew word. Yeah. There's just like this random Hebrew word, because like the initial developers, there's a lot of like Israeli developers and stuff. And like, there's this one error you would always get in PHP. I can't remember it.

Dax

01:27:03 – 01:27:03

That is

Ian

01:27:03 – 01:27:12

so crazy word. Word. It's nothing. Like, you have no idea what it means. I don't even know it was like a super word for like 20 years or like 10, 10 years probably.

Adam

01:27:12 – 01:27:15

This is a It's just like, what I guess is man. I I don't know if

Ian

01:27:15 – 01:27:16

it's, like, a bad ink.

Dax

01:27:16 – 01:27:16

Tube or

Ian

01:27:19 – 01:27:20

Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah.

Dax

01:27:20 – 01:27:20

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron

01:27:20 – 01:27:26

That's a Maybe it's an Is it a quote? No. I think it's an unexpected, double

Dax

01:27:26 – 01:27:27

semi colon. Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron

01:27:27 – 01:27:28

Yeah. Double colon. Oh.

Dax

01:27:28 – 01:27:31

So we got that in the bag somewhere. That's that's a

Ian

01:27:31 – 01:27:35

nice way. That in the bag. Yeah. That's for the for the old heads out there. That will

Aaron

01:27:35 – 01:27:45

show everyone at a PHP conference that, like, you're one of us. Yes. If the blend is called t peronucadione or whatever it is, everyone will be like, holy crap.

Dax

01:27:45 – 01:27:45

They're And

Dax

01:27:45 – 01:27:46

you're developers.

Dax

01:27:46 – 01:27:46

You're you're

Ian

01:27:46 – 01:27:49

from you're from before the linters and the

Dax

01:27:49 – 01:27:49

Yeah.

Ian

01:27:49 – 01:27:55

Exactly. Fixed everything for you and everything. Like, you're just in there in a text editor, like, hacking around and

Dax

01:27:55 – 01:27:58

Hey. I want that that's actually true. I I did PHP for a

Ian

01:27:58 – 01:27:59

Yeah.

Dax

01:27:59 – 01:28:01

Release a year. There you go. I don't remember that. There you go.

Dax

01:28:01 – 01:28:02

What about

Adam

01:28:02 – 01:28:03

a long time ago.

Ian

01:28:03 – 01:28:06

Yeah. Yeah. What about PHP is the greatest to the whole story.

Dax

01:28:06 – 01:28:10

That's that's good. I'll get We'll get shirts with that printed on there. It's just so Yeah.

Ian

01:28:10 – 01:28:13

There we go. I'll buy that. I'll buy that on turbo.shop. Honestly. Yeah.

Ian

01:28:13 – 01:28:17

And it's got 2 two customers right there. And leak code to check out.

Dax

01:28:17 – 01:28:18

So Oh, I don't wanna do I don't wanna do that real quick.

Dax

01:28:18 – 01:28:19

Lose a lot of you're gonna lose a lot of this

Dax

01:28:19 – 01:28:19

in that one.

Ian

01:28:26 – 01:28:37

I'll I'll be honest. Only that way, it is kinda funny to have, like, certain items that only people smart enough can, like, get those items and stuff. Like, I mean, I won't get any of them, but that'll be fun.

Dax

01:28:37 – 01:28:55

It's funny when it's out there. Another version of this joke was, there's like different levels of Sleep Code challenges. We were thinking that randomly we drop in like an extra hard one and if you got it right, we would increase the price instead of decrease it because clearly clearly you can afford it.

Ian

01:28:57 – 01:29:02

I thought you were gonna say, like, you personally deliver it or something. Like, you just showed yourself

Adam

01:29:02 – 01:29:02

the delivery.

Dax

01:29:02 – 01:29:05

We just made them feel bad for spending the time

Aaron

01:29:05 – 01:29:06

to do

Ian

01:29:07 – 01:29:12

it. You spent 2 hours solving this. That's too bad for you. No. It's $52 to buy you about your

Adam

01:29:12 – 01:29:14

coffee. Goodness gracious.

Ian

01:29:15 – 01:29:18

Alright. Well, thanks a lot guys for coming on. This is awesome.

Dax

01:29:18 – 01:29:19

Thanks for having us.

Ian

01:29:19 – 01:29:25

It worked great. Of course. Thanks, Adam. Thanks, Dax. We'll, be interacting with you on Twitter, I'm sure.

Ian

01:29:25 – 01:29:38

And, so check out their their stuff. We'll link it all up below with terminal dot shop with coffee and how about tomorrow podcast. So yeah, check all that stuff out and SST, and whatever

Dax

01:29:38 – 01:29:39

that is use. Yeah. Yeah.

Ian

01:29:39 – 01:29:43

Whatever, whatever SST is. I only, I am jealous of

Aaron

01:29:43 – 01:29:44

whatever I look at.

Ian

01:29:44 – 01:29:54

Yeah. Yeah. I love the idea of it, but as much as I know about it, But, anyway, thanks everybody for, tuning in, and we will see you next week. Thanks.

Aaron

01:29:55 – 01:29:56

See you.

Laravel vs. JavaScript with Dax & Adam Elmore

Transcript

Not enough emails?