Launching Flux (Live) with Caleb Porzio

September 24, 2024

Ian and Aaron are joined this week by Caleb Porzio (friend of the show) on our very first live stream in honor of Flux, which Caleb literally launches live on the podcast. Plus everything from password hygiene to cloud exits to hiring people to, of course, all the ups & downs of launching a product like Flux. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. Note: Recorded live on September 23rd, 2024.
Watch on YouTube →

Transcript

Ian
00:00:00 – 00:00:08
Welcome to our live show. It says everything you need to know right there. It's live, baby. We're live. Nobody cares what we're here to talk about.
Ian
00:00:08 – 00:00:12
They care about us, that we are here. We are live.
Aaron
00:00:12 – 00:00:14
Is my quality. Is it so Oh,
Ian
00:00:14 – 00:00:15
it's very bad.
Caleb
00:00:15 – 00:00:16
Pretty bad. It depends.
Ian
00:00:17 – 00:00:23
It's not up to the Aaron Francis studio of light and sound, quality level.
Caleb
00:00:24 – 00:00:24
Okay.
Aaron
00:00:24 – 00:00:25
But I think
Ian
00:00:25 – 00:00:33
this is good because you need to build a mobile studio. This is you gotta be on there at any time. Like, you can't be constrained by the power grid.
Aaron
00:00:34 – 00:00:38
I I you would even I brought like a, no, I'm even 400. I brought
Caleb
00:00:38 – 00:00:39
a microphone and a
Aaron
00:00:39 – 00:00:41
stand and I brought
Aaron
00:00:41 – 00:00:41
my freaking
Aaron
00:00:41 – 00:00:45
I brought my computer. Not that none of it works. Absolutely not.
Ian
00:00:46 – 00:00:50
You gotta have you gotta have a whole thing in the trunk ready to go. That's just mobile command center.
Aaron
00:00:51 – 00:00:54
I was like, I'll just bring all my cables and see what happens.
Ian
00:00:55 – 00:00:56
Oh, good. Boy.
Caleb
00:00:56 – 00:01:11
So, Aaron, you look great. I really do. And, I I just gotta say, I mean, this whole thing is hilarious, and I'm dying laughing over here. As soon as there there were multiple moments of me dying laughing off stream or on stream. I'm not sure.
Caleb
00:01:11 – 00:01:33
But one of them, my favorite one, is Ian going I go, I don't know how to stream on Twitter, Ian. He goes, give me your password. It's like this is, like, free one password error password. This is like, this is a woman where it's like, it would be so much funnier if it was like, I don't know, like, Hello Kitty one. Something.
Caleb
00:01:33 – 00:01:33
Not
Ian
00:01:33 – 00:01:34
far off of that though.
Caleb
00:01:34 – 00:01:36
Right. It's not that far. I wanna
Aaron
00:01:36 – 00:01:40
hear I wanna hear later what the password is. Oh. Oh
Ian
00:01:40 – 00:01:43
my god. I think it's in the public chat. I think Yeah.
Aaron
00:01:43 – 00:01:43
You can
Ian
00:01:43 – 00:01:44
see it if you look back. Yeah.
Caleb
00:01:44 – 00:01:52
What's your password? Okay. Don't judge me. I made this when I was 12. That is the best.
Caleb
00:01:52 – 00:02:01
I that's so funny. Like, nobody knows that password, of course, except for all the hackers and m d five checkers or whatever. But, but you know. I
Aaron
00:02:02 – 00:02:06
know. I gotta love. I can't Right now I can't phone because I'm afraid Yeah. Don't touch the phone.
Caleb
00:02:06 – 00:02:07
I'm gonna
Aaron
00:02:07 – 00:02:08
love it in my computer.
Ian
00:02:08 – 00:02:14
I mean, yeah. It's not I could I could beat Caleb right now. I could tweet as Caleb right now.
Caleb
00:02:14 – 00:02:19
Hopefully, everything else is one password, but you know. You know. Yeah. There's plenty that's not.
Ian
00:02:19 – 00:02:21
You got a few that are I can't believe
Caleb
00:02:21 – 00:02:26
Twitter is allowing me to just keep that password. Aaron likes the password.
Aaron
00:02:27 – 00:02:28
It's not a It's
Ian
00:02:28 – 00:02:30
not a very secure password.
Caleb
00:02:30 – 00:02:35
No. Don't say it's not a secure password. They have, like For sure. They have an hour to
Aaron
00:02:35 – 00:02:36
freaking hack
Ian
00:02:36 – 00:02:42
k seven, upper case z, exclamation point.
Caleb
00:02:42 – 00:02:51
So we're gonna launch Flux in a few minutes here. Yes. What can you say about launching Flux? What can you say? What do you say about a launch?
Caleb
00:02:51 – 00:03:13
I wish that we could do, like we should be casting lots on all sorts of outcomes, you know? Like, financially also, I mean, I wish we could do the just straight, like, financial and just be, like, you know, what's the sales number? Make it like a like a some show that does that. But I have one, will everything be broken? Like, will it work?
Caleb
00:03:13 – 00:03:15
It's actually a great question. You know?
Ian
00:03:15 – 00:03:21
You never know to question. You haven't gotten to use it in violence yet, really. I mean, I know you've tested it a lot and everything.
Caleb
00:03:21 – 00:03:34
And I I'm even I'm, like, least worried about that. Like, I have this whole freaking custom licensing crazy system with, like, teams and seats and upgrading and crazy stuff. There's so many, like, wheels in motion.
Aaron
00:03:34 – 00:03:34
Too much
Ian
00:03:34 – 00:03:35
stuff. Too much stuff.
Caleb
00:03:35 – 00:03:49
Way too much stuff. Like, upon reflection, don't do teams at launch. Don't do teams. Don't definitely don't do teams. Don't connect to APIs, like for everything, like email stuff and all the stuff.
Caleb
00:03:49 – 00:03:55
APIs are killing me. Teams are killing me and just hand rolling everything is killing me. Don't hand roll this stuff.
Ian
00:03:55 – 00:04:04
Don't hand roll anything. Every time I've ever hand rolled anything, I regret it. I'm going for the next version of help spot website. I'm going so far off that. I'm just using a service.
Ian
00:04:04 – 00:04:08
I'm just using a website builder service. I'm done with building things
Caleb
00:04:08 – 00:04:09
freaking wix. Yes.
Ian
00:04:10 – 00:04:18
Like probably squarespace or something like that. And I'm just done what building it all this time we spend it has nothing It makes you no money. No money
Caleb
00:04:18 – 00:04:24
everything Everything every single level authorization
Aaron
00:04:24 – 00:04:26
right unless you do it yourself.
Ian
00:04:26 – 00:04:33
That's true This is what a lie. I've been telling myself for twenty years. I'm trying to break free. You guys still got, like, ten, fifteen years to go to get us where I am.
Caleb
00:04:33 – 00:04:36
To where I'm going to know. Yeah. Yeah. Until you're on LinkedIn.
Ian
00:04:36 – 00:04:44
Full grandfather website mode. Just like, we set you up on webs. You're all set. What is the
Caleb
00:04:44 – 00:04:48
crappiest website builder right now? Because I don't know if it's still Wix.
Ian
00:04:48 – 00:04:50
No. You know, I just wanna make sure mine's actually pretty legit, you
Caleb
00:04:50 – 00:04:52
know, and people Right. They, like, are good now. Right?
Ian
00:04:52 – 00:05:05
Yeah. I think the GoDaddy probably has their own, you know, like, the hosting providers all have their own, like, out of a box weirdo website builder thing. I think that's still kind of a thing. You get free with your $3 hosting plan on whatever.
Caleb
00:05:06 – 00:05:07
Right. Right.
Ian
00:05:09 – 00:05:12
Forget about that though. Alright. We launched a lot, man. That's why you're here.
Aaron
00:05:13 – 00:05:13
That's why we're here.
Ian
00:05:13 – 00:05:20
Last night. You were like, let's how can I come on MT and do it live? And we're like, yes. We will make it happen. Let's do it.
Caleb
00:05:20 – 00:05:42
This yeah. I and I appreciate you guys for having me. This is great. It it occurred to me, like, I like not having an official launch time because then you can launch it the day before, and then, like, the secret people who find it, then they, like, break everything, and then you fix everything, and you have all night, and it's so much safer. But, Josh Hanley was getting in my head.
Caleb
00:05:42 – 00:05:53
He's like he's like, dude, a launch time. And, yeah. So gotta do the launch time. Then I was like, oh, well, if we're doing the launch time, we gotta stream the thing. And it's like, oh, for streaming, let me know the first thing about that.
Caleb
00:05:53 – 00:05:56
Who am I calling? France man. You know? Yeah.
Ian
00:05:56 – 00:05:56
Here we go. Yeah.
Caleb
00:05:56 – 00:05:58
He's standing there. I got
Aaron
00:05:58 – 00:05:59
the whole thing. I got the whole thing to do.
Caleb
00:05:59 – 00:06:02
Who am I calling tonight?
Aaron
00:06:04 – 00:06:05
Oh my
Ian
00:06:05 – 00:06:06
god. This is too much.
Caleb
00:06:06 – 00:06:11
Better get close to life's dream to hear here in Francis. Francis.
Ian
00:06:11 – 00:06:15
Alright. So you got four minutes to launch here, man.
Caleb
00:06:16 – 00:06:17
What's that, Ian?
Ian
00:06:17 – 00:06:19
You got four minutes to launch. Yeah.
Caleb
00:06:19 – 00:06:19
We got four minutes
Ian
00:06:19 – 00:06:22
to launch. Doing 10:30? Are you gonna push the button at 10:30, or what's your plan?
Aaron
00:06:22 – 00:06:24
Yeah. I'm gonna push the button Yeah.
Aaron
00:06:24 – 00:06:24
Tell it.
Caleb
00:06:24 – 00:06:29
Like, a couple minutes before. Okay. So what do we gotta do? Let's look at the checklist here. We gotta get the site up.
Caleb
00:06:29 – 00:06:45
That's the first thing, you know, which I think is PHP artisan up, I think. And? And then it's just, like, looking at Flare and seeing if everything looking at Flare and refreshing the database to see if, like, queue jobs are all working and going through.
Ian
00:06:45 – 00:06:46
Right. This stuff happening.
Caleb
00:06:46 – 00:06:56
Yeah. That's a big question mark. It's all a big question mark. And looking at Stripe. I mean, like, if there's money in in the Stripe thing, then we're good because then I can reconcile all the licensing stuff.
Caleb
00:06:56 – 00:07:03
But if, like Mhmm. So we gotta you know, as long as we could take people's money, it's fine. Key thing. So first thing is get
Aaron
00:07:03 – 00:07:06
in shift details as long as we can take their money.
Caleb
00:07:06 – 00:07:17
That's right. Okay. So the ConvertKit is already scheduled. So three minutes ago or two minutes ago, an email went out to all the preorder folks with, like, information on how to upgrade, telling them, like,
Aaron
00:07:17 – 00:07:17
give it
Caleb
00:07:17 – 00:07:28
five minutes, then you can go on. And then at 10:30, so in three, two and a half minutes is the official launch email. And then I got the launch tweet. I can't schedule tweets. Maybe be is it
Ian
00:07:28 – 00:07:29
can you
Caleb
00:07:29 – 00:07:30
not schedule a video?
Ian
00:07:30 – 00:07:39
Tweets? No. You can use type fully there or whatever that's called, which I've been using lately, but and and schedule them. But, yeah, I don't know about in Twitter if you can directly schedule a tweet. So I may have to do that one live.
Caleb
00:07:39 – 00:07:48
There's like a calendar icon that's grayed out, like, on the compose tweet thing, and I was like, this looks like something that should work. But, anyway, so it's in a tab.
Aaron
00:07:48 – 00:07:50
Twitter password if you want me to tweet anything.
Caleb
00:07:50 – 00:07:51
You can just tell me.
Ian
00:07:51 – 00:07:52
I'll I'll
Caleb
00:07:52 – 00:08:05
put you in. Parents might I'm just gonna text you what I need tweeted. Okay. So then we tweet. Oh, and then, last night, I remembered that I should put stuff on the Livewire docs.
Caleb
00:08:05 – 00:08:20
So I have, like, a docs banner and, like, a little sidebar item that says UI components. So we gotta deploy that. And deployment around these parts is SSH and git pull. So nothing can go wrong, and it's gonna be fast, so fast. There's not gonna be a way to
Ian
00:08:20 – 00:08:22
You wanna share screen for any of this, or are you not set
Caleb
00:08:22 – 00:08:25
up for that? I don't know. I didn't know. Maybe. I don't know.
Ian
00:08:25 – 00:08:28
You wanna share your password with everybody else, maybe. I don't know.
Caleb
00:08:28 – 00:08:46
I don't know what's what is visible on my screen. Like, Daniel at, didn't Daniel do something at Laracon? I I just remember looking at Daniel's Laracon talk being in the audience and being, like, just scanning for for, like, keys and, like, what do I what am I gonna tell him to immediately edit out of this talk? Like, okay. So you guys
Aaron
00:08:46 – 00:08:51
participant's email address, which I told him was a violation of the GDPR, but he doesn't seem to care.
Ian
00:08:51 – 00:08:52
That is.
Caleb
00:08:53 – 00:09:04
Right. And, yeah, the email addresses and, like, client projects in the the folders. Sorry for blowing you up, Daniel. Alright. I'm gonna hit I'm doing artisan PHP artisan up.
Caleb
00:09:04 – 00:09:06
Okay. Alright. So happening. Somebody test it out.
Ian
00:09:06 – 00:09:07
Where should I look?
Caleb
00:09:07 – 00:09:09
Can you guys go to fluxui.dev? Is this thing up?
Ian
00:09:09 – 00:09:10
Let's do it.
Caleb
00:09:10 – 00:09:11
So that's that's the up.
Ian
00:09:12 – 00:09:15
Okay. Let's deploy I got your talk.
Caleb
00:09:16 – 00:09:16
The live wire.
Aaron
00:09:16 – 00:09:17
Got it.
Ian
00:09:18 – 00:09:20
Okay. Get started.
Caleb
00:09:20 – 00:09:21
So you can see the site.
Aaron
00:09:21 – 00:09:22
Got it.
Caleb
00:09:22 – 00:09:22
Yeah. I
Ian
00:09:22 – 00:09:24
can see the site in general. Yes.
Aaron
00:09:24 – 00:09:24
Then we're good.
Ian
00:09:24 – 00:09:33
Oh, we're losing Aaron. Aaron, your robot. Pricing is working. It looks like Okay. Some stuff, it seems a little something seems weird, but I'm not sure if it's you or me.
Ian
00:09:33 – 00:09:38
It might be me streaming. Like seems weird. Oh, you know what? I think maybe,
Caleb
00:09:39 – 00:09:40
I'm not
Ian
00:09:40 – 00:09:48
possible to drop down that team, but, it's working now. I don't know. I think my browser is being a little weird from streaming and, in this. Yeah. I think we're okay.
Caleb
00:09:48 – 00:10:00
Who knows? And this is just like a DigitalOcean droplet, you know, just Oh. Got a droplet going. We got we got a little MySQL database on there. We got database queue driver going.
Ian
00:10:02 – 00:10:06
Alright. I don't know if Aaron could see it. It seems a little slow for me.
Aaron
00:10:06 – 00:10:07
And I can't see a sprinting thing.
Caleb
00:10:08 – 00:10:10
We can't I can't do anything. Literally?
Aaron
00:10:12 – 00:10:19
I said I said hello, and then Riverside said reconnecting because I'm freaking on my cell Wi Fi, so I'm kinda Oh my gosh.
Caleb
00:10:19 – 00:10:22
Okay. It is confirmed. The site is very slow.
Ian
00:10:22 – 00:10:23
Okay.
Caleb
00:10:23 – 00:10:24
Says Jason Beggs.
Aaron
00:10:24 – 00:10:29
Alright. Now freaking Jason. Jason should just fix it. Why is he complaining? He should just fix it.
Caleb
00:10:29 – 00:10:34
Jason, fix it. Yeah. Jason, fix it. About that? I don't think we could do anything about that.
Ian
00:10:34 – 00:10:41
What size what size droplet do we have? Tell tell me you didn't do some little one gigabyte droplet. No. Maybe two gigabytes. I don't know.
Ian
00:10:41 – 00:10:42
Oh, you're killing me.
Aaron
00:10:42 – 00:10:44
You gotta believe in yourself, man.
Ian
00:10:44 – 00:10:53
You gotta do the dedicated CPU, and you gotta do, like, an eight just as for launch day. Dude. Get into there right now and up the size of that thing.
Caleb
00:10:53 – 00:10:54
Is that how that works? Can I just
Aaron
00:10:54 – 00:10:56
do that? Yeah. I could try and do it. The same password.
Ian
00:10:56 – 00:10:59
There are two jobs. All the same password.
Caleb
00:10:59 – 00:10:59
There are two.
Ian
00:11:02 – 00:11:07
I use one password. Sure. Meanwhile, we can log in to the whole Internet with Kayla's password.
Caleb
00:11:07 – 00:11:08
Kayla literally needs to
Aaron
00:11:08 – 00:11:10
use one password. Right.
Caleb
00:11:10 – 00:11:12
Yeah. Or or whatever.
Ian
00:11:12 – 00:11:14
She keeps that one in one password. Right.
Caleb
00:11:15 – 00:11:26
Would you guys mind sizing up by droplet? Can can't fix it because Caleb comes up with dumb deployment strategies like SSH and Git pull, says Jason Banks. Yeah.
Ian
00:11:27 – 00:11:43
Also, it sounds like street order people can't log in Oh. Or or something along those lines. I don't know if that's confirmed. I got Dave producer Dave is also helping us out behind the scenes. That's a report from producer Dave that the people on the Internet are saying.
Caleb
00:11:43 – 00:11:47
Okay. We appreciate it, producer Dave. Alright. Time to check Stripe.
Ian
00:11:47 – 00:11:49
Yeah. Let's do one thing at a time.
Caleb
00:11:49 – 00:11:51
Yeah. Yeah. Let's just see the money. Thing that matters.
Ian
00:11:51 – 00:11:56
No. I don't think you should go to Stripe. I think you should go to DigitalOcean and get a bigger droplet.
Aaron
00:11:56 – 00:11:56
That would be
Caleb
00:11:56 – 00:12:01
So if I do that, I mean, is that not stupid? Am I gonna, like, ruin everything?
Aaron
00:12:01 – 00:12:05
No. I mean You're gonna have to rebuild it with ports. That's gonna take well, no. I guess you could just type that.
Ian
00:12:05 – 00:12:07
The droplet size? Yeah.
Caleb
00:12:07 – 00:12:10
I'm gonna go to DigitalOcean. We'll start with droplets. Digital Ocean.
Aaron
00:12:10 – 00:12:10
Yeah. I
Ian
00:12:10 – 00:12:14
mean, it's gonna go down for, you know, a minute while it reboots or We're gonna
Aaron
00:12:14 – 00:12:15
do it live.
Ian
00:12:15 – 00:12:15
But, like
Aaron
00:12:15 – 00:12:16
No. We'll do it live.
Ian
00:12:17 – 00:12:20
It's basically down anyway. So, like, we gotta get to the
Caleb
00:12:20 – 00:12:24
part where we're not back. Oh, it's for real crazy slow. That's what Jason Beck says. Alright let me, it's
Ian
00:12:24 – 00:12:28
like non functional right now so it's it's down how
Caleb
00:12:28 – 00:12:29
do I get into DigitalOcean?
Aaron
00:12:33 – 00:12:33
Hey, we're having fun,
Caleb
00:12:33 – 00:12:40
aren't we? We're having fun. Alright. DigitalOcean verification code. I'm gonna read it out.
Caleb
00:12:40 – 00:12:46
Okay? Yeah. Just 123. 2 3. Oh, Caleb's side.
Caleb
00:12:46 – 00:12:54
Okay. Alright. So I'm gonna go to do okay. Fluxed. K.
Caleb
00:12:54 – 00:12:58
Yep. Okay. CPU? Yes. % right now.
Ian
00:12:58 – 00:13:00
Yeah. A good a good note. This is
Caleb
00:13:00 – 00:13:04
a pretty simple, like, Laravel app. I didn't think that But
Ian
00:13:04 – 00:13:10
Tricchio, said this, and I was gonna say this too. Don't change this size. Right. So you can go back down. Yes.
Caleb
00:13:11 – 00:13:17
For sure. Okay. So I'm gonna say, what is ups is upsized droplet thing to do?
Ian
00:13:17 – 00:13:20
Yeah. Upsize. Let's upsize it. We wanna supersize.
Caleb
00:13:20 – 00:13:21
Give it a big
Ian
00:13:21 – 00:13:22
old honky socket.
Caleb
00:13:22 – 00:13:28
CPU and RAM only. Okay? I'm gonna scroll down. We're at, right now, two CPUs, four gigabytes to memory.
Ian
00:13:29 – 00:13:34
But it could be those shared CPUs because they have to be plans. But, yeah, I would go to big go wheelie here.
Caleb
00:13:34 – 00:13:38
Just bump it up. So what? Yeah. Right? What do you mean, though?
Caleb
00:13:38 – 00:13:40
So I don't even know.
Aaron
00:13:40 – 00:13:41
You've got some money.
Caleb
00:13:41 – 00:13:44
You've got some money. I would go big. What
Ian
00:13:44 – 00:13:45
do I put us on?
Caleb
00:13:45 – 00:13:49
What's big? I don't know. Alright. Like, here are the options. So 24?
Caleb
00:13:49 – 00:13:56
It's graying out, like, a bunch of stuff. But so for $65 a month, I can get four CPUs with eight gigs.
Ian
00:13:56 – 00:13:58
K. That's not enough. There's
Caleb
00:13:59 – 00:14:06
also a bunch bunch bunch of, like, cheaper four CPUs, but they're regular Intel. It's like, what do you want? The regular Intel, the premium AMD, the premium Intel?
Ian
00:14:06 – 00:14:10
Just slide that thing to the right till it breaks off, man. That's what you gotta do.
Caleb
00:14:10 – 00:14:12
To downsize that, though. Right?
Ian
00:14:12 – 00:14:18
You're just You can always rebuild the site later. Yeah. This is a one day. It doesn't matter. You just wanna make sure everybody goes there today.
Ian
00:14:18 – 00:14:19
Gives you
Caleb
00:14:19 – 00:14:24
a good experience. We're getting we're getting eight CPUs. At least. Eight Three minutes.
Aaron
00:14:24 – 00:14:25
At least.
Caleb
00:14:25 – 00:14:26
At least. I don't know if we need
Ian
00:14:26 – 00:14:30
to mess with the NGINX stuff, but hopefully not. Hopefully, it'll just be
Caleb
00:14:30 – 00:14:30
best for you.
Aaron
00:14:30 – 00:14:32
You probably wanna put the site and make
Aaron
00:14:32 – 00:14:33
it slow so the queues
Aaron
00:14:34 – 00:14:35
the queues don't Alright.
Caleb
00:14:35 – 00:14:42
Let me just make sure that Flux UI dot dev is still the slowest thing in the world. And, yeah, it is. The whole thing's well,
Aaron
00:14:42 – 00:14:42
yeah.
Ian
00:14:42 – 00:14:43
I don't
Caleb
00:14:43 – 00:14:44
know. What's the cost here?
Aaron
00:14:44 – 00:14:44
Let me
Caleb
00:14:44 – 00:14:46
just reset a refresh Stripe again.
Ian
00:14:46 – 00:14:52
It's taking about five seconds per load. It is faster than it was, but that's because people are leaving, which is not good. So I was like
Caleb
00:14:52 – 00:15:01
Okay. You gotta do something about it or you're gonna slow down sales big time. Okay. Takes, like, five seconds for each click. Alright.
Caleb
00:15:02 – 00:15:03
Let's,
Aaron
00:15:03 – 00:15:04
I'm gonna re baby.
Caleb
00:15:04 – 00:15:06
I'm gonna size it up. Okay. Yeah. So I click on
Ian
00:15:06 – 00:15:08
the new can't go wrong with sizing it up, though.
Caleb
00:15:08 – 00:15:17
And then how do you hit resize again? You need to power it down first. Alright. PHP artisan down. Who knows what that now differ humans as it says nobody knows
Ian
00:15:17 – 00:15:17
what that does all
Caleb
00:15:17 – 00:15:28
right php artisan down it's in maintenance mode so now I'm going to turn off the droplet let's see how long a quick little resize takes can't take long
Ian
00:15:28 – 00:15:30
it should be very fast
Caleb
00:15:30 – 00:15:33
okay I should probably tweet about this as well I would think
Ian
00:15:33 – 00:15:38
it's all very good in terms of your prospects for selling some luxuries well resizing
Caleb
00:15:39 – 00:15:42
the drop rate hump bang on
Aaron
00:15:42 – 00:15:42
ace it's
Ian
00:15:42 – 00:15:46
gonna be amazing as a podcast people are just listening to
Caleb
00:15:46 – 00:15:51
Right. This is the best. You you guys gotta I totally tell. Keep refreshing.
Ian
00:15:52 – 00:15:55
A flow. Refreshing again. It's great.
Caleb
00:15:55 – 00:16:03
I turned it off, and now it's allowing me to resize. I'm gonna do a hundred and $20 a month, and we're going premium Intel. Resize. Premium.
Ian
00:16:03 – 00:16:04
$4 for today.
Caleb
00:16:04 – 00:16:09
Alright. I hit resize. What could go wrong? The database will still be fine probably, hopefully. Right?
Caleb
00:16:09 – 00:16:10
Yeah. Yes. The definition is
Ian
00:16:10 – 00:16:14
putting in the database? I mean, I'm curious what you're even putting in the database. What's going on in the database?
Caleb
00:16:16 – 00:16:16
What? The database.
Ian
00:16:16 – 00:16:19
Just the users, I guess, just like
Aaron
00:16:19 – 00:16:21
yeah. Well Roads. And Roads.
Ian
00:16:21 – 00:16:25
Roads. Work. I gotta watch some of Aaron's videos so I know what the hell is going on.
Caleb
00:16:25 – 00:16:28
Who do you even put in the database? Forever. I'm not interested in the database.
Aaron
00:16:32 – 00:16:32
Oh. That's
Ian
00:16:32 – 00:16:36
like Karen has his tea, which I manned up enough and listened to your tea episode. I ordered
Caleb
00:16:36 – 00:16:37
Drop a little bit of tea.
Ian
00:16:38 – 00:16:38
See. Look at that.
Caleb
00:16:38 – 00:16:40
I turned it on. What could go wrong?
Aaron
00:16:40 – 00:16:42
Hang on. Nothing. Nothing's
Caleb
00:16:42 – 00:16:45
going on. Be blazing fast. Watch. It's some other stupid thing that
Ian
00:16:46 – 00:16:46
No. It's
Caleb
00:16:47 – 00:16:48
SSH This is
Aaron
00:16:48 – 00:16:51
this is long. It's not sports line. I don't really care what's
Ian
00:16:51 – 00:16:52
slowing down. More power.
Caleb
00:16:53 – 00:16:58
Okay. Can't connect. System is booting up. It's a good sign. Good.
Caleb
00:16:58 – 00:16:59
It's a good sign. Okay.
Ian
00:16:59 – 00:17:01
Oh, good. Okay. Yeah.
Caleb
00:17:01 – 00:17:07
Yeah. You know Watch the watch. Are cheap at this rate comparatively. Like, why do I mess around with these tiny servers?
Ian
00:17:07 – 00:17:09
I don't know. Never mess around with
Caleb
00:17:09 – 00:17:12
tiny servers? I know. Never
Ian
00:17:12 – 00:17:13
mess around with tiny servers.
Caleb
00:17:13 – 00:17:18
Isn't that the thing? Like, you just pay $20 a month, and you make a zillion dollars on $20 a month. That's, like, the the way.
Ian
00:17:18 – 00:17:21
Right? Yeah. You got the over provision always.
Caleb
00:17:22 – 00:17:29
This is the this is truly multitasking. What? No. Okay. You ready for this?
Caleb
00:17:29 – 00:17:32
Yeah. CDFlux UI PHP artisan I
Ian
00:17:32 – 00:17:33
mean, it's already up.
Caleb
00:17:33 – 00:17:34
Oh, it's up. There you go.
Ian
00:17:34 – 00:17:39
I mean, not you need to take it out maintenance mode, but it's, like, you know Okay. Lot.
Caleb
00:17:39 – 00:17:40
If I access it
Ian
00:17:40 – 00:17:44
Ah, yeah. Look it. I can click around. And it's screaming fast. Moving.
Caleb
00:17:44 – 00:17:56
Maybe it's just because I have, like, some ridiculous, like, memory leaks and oh, you know what I did? This might have been dumb. I put the queue worker to five processes. Is that stupid? I don't know anything about servers.
Caleb
00:17:57 – 00:17:59
I was just, like, five processes
Ian
00:17:59 – 00:18:01
for sure. In the queue. I mean, what do you got what are you putting in your queues?
Caleb
00:18:01 – 00:18:03
I don't know. That's what I wanna know.
Ian
00:18:03 – 00:18:04
No. I'm doing the
Caleb
00:18:04 – 00:18:16
okay. So right. Let's get into the details here. Uh-huh. The queue, when you purchase, you get an order, and then I queue a job to create a license for you on any stack, which is Filo's, like, software licensing.
Caleb
00:18:17 – 00:18:24
He handles all the composer authentication stuff. So create a job to create a license over the API and store that in the database. That's cute.
Ian
00:18:24 – 00:18:24
Okay. Got it.
Aaron
00:18:24 – 00:18:25
Got it.
Caleb
00:18:27 – 00:18:28
So too
Ian
00:18:28 – 00:18:32
I mean, hopefully, it's busy, but, I mean, there should only be so much stuff in there. I mean Yeah.
Aaron
00:18:32 – 00:18:34
That should be fine. I probably don't five.
Caleb
00:18:35 – 00:18:38
Okay. Five is fine. It's five plus one because I just added a
Aaron
00:18:38 – 00:18:39
the one. But the folks are
Caleb
00:18:39 – 00:18:42
saying it's so fast now. Okay.
Aaron
00:18:42 – 00:18:42
Let's see.
Caleb
00:18:42 – 00:18:49
That's what Dave producer Dave says. Everybody says that now. Okay. That's why we do it live. Sick.
Caleb
00:18:49 – 00:18:50
I just need to upgrade
Ian
00:18:50 – 00:18:51
all my servers to
Caleb
00:18:51 – 00:18:58
a million dollars. We gotta go we gotta cloud exit. We should cloud exit on this stream right now.
Aaron
00:18:58 – 00:18:58
That's a good thing
Caleb
00:18:58 – 00:19:00
to do. Right? In house.
Ian
00:19:00 – 00:19:09
We're gonna get a rack server. We're gonna send Aaron in his car to go pick up a rack server. There's a big data center there in Dallas that he can
Caleb
00:19:09 – 00:19:09
Yep.
Ian
00:19:09 – 00:19:10
Rack it up in
Caleb
00:19:10 – 00:19:11
And put do it like
Ian
00:19:11 – 00:19:12
live wires there with that.
Aaron
00:19:12 – 00:19:13
Tower, but it will
Caleb
00:19:13 – 00:19:26
have power from point two. Okay. So let's see. I can see I I don't wanna tell you the the amount of money coming in live, but how do I, like we need Wait. We need something.
Caleb
00:19:27 – 00:19:32
Here. Okay. I'm gonna I'm going to private message you guys the amount, and then you can just react. Okay?
Ian
00:19:32 – 00:19:35
Cool. So oh, yeah. This is gonna happen. Yeah. People are very happy.
Aaron
00:19:35 – 00:19:37
Look at my phone. I don't wanna mess up.
Ian
00:19:37 – 00:19:38
I don't wanna mess up. Don't don't
Caleb
00:19:38 – 00:19:41
touch anything. Okay. Ready? People are very
Ian
00:19:41 – 00:19:44
happy. Okay. What do you think? That is very nice.
Aaron
00:19:44 – 00:19:46
Okay. Pretty good. Look at
Ian
00:19:46 – 00:19:47
where are we at? Good.
Aaron
00:19:47 – 00:19:50
I think we're very happy. We're happy.
Ian
00:19:50 – 00:19:54
I mean, the site wasn't functional. So come on.
Caleb
00:19:54 – 00:19:54
Imagine it's
Ian
00:19:54 – 00:20:04
a functional website. I think, pretty good. It's so funny because, like, between the way you you know, the launch hiccups I didn't tweet.
Caleb
00:20:04 – 00:20:05
Sorry. I gotta hit tweet.
Ian
00:20:05 – 00:20:16
Tweet. And then you took down the preorder for two weeks, which is totally insane. And then this website didn't work. So you're doing pretty well. Like, I think it's all going better.
Ian
00:20:16 – 00:20:27
If you just said all those things and then you said how much money you made to somebody, they would be like, that doesn't sound right. Shut up. Yeah. Right? Everything's totally wrong, but you're still doing alright.
Caleb
00:20:28 – 00:20:33
Okay. So now everybody, you know, listening to this, you can go retweet that thing if you want. If you wanna be a
Aaron
00:20:33 – 00:20:34
a real pro,
Caleb
00:20:34 – 00:20:38
you can, hit that retweet. I should pin this tweet. Alright. We're gonna pin this tweet. Yeah.
Caleb
00:20:38 – 00:20:49
I'm gonna pin this. Yep. Pin to profile. Adam is the puppet master behind any of this. He's like I'm just, like, literally minutes before this call.
Caleb
00:20:49 – 00:20:54
Like, Adam, what are we writing this tweet? Adam, should I put this image in here, or should I put this thing? What link should I put in here, Adam?
Ian
00:20:55 – 00:20:56
He's your guru.
Aaron
00:20:56 – 00:20:57
Should I use, Adam?
Ian
00:20:57 – 00:21:00
No. That would have been a good one to ask him. Right.
Caleb
00:21:02 – 00:21:10
Oh, like you said, Aaron, it makes for good content. This is anti marketing. You just fluff everything up all the time, and everybody can't help but stare at the dumpster fire.
Ian
00:21:11 – 00:21:22
Alright. So hold on now. Somebody just said I had a good question, and I feel like you should answer this before we go any farther, is they wanna know what we're launching. So there's gonna be people in here who don't know what we're launching. Oh, that's so funny.
Ian
00:21:22 – 00:21:24
Tell them what we're launching.
Aaron
00:21:25 – 00:21:26
Where was Adam on that one?
Caleb
00:21:26 – 00:21:36
Yeah. Okay. Adam is messaging me saying you should tell them why you're launching. Just kidding. Okay.
Caleb
00:21:37 – 00:21:48
So what are we launching? Flux. Flux UI. It's a UI component library for Livewire. If you use Livewire, then you are wrestling with building components yourself, and, oh, we got a hand raised.
Caleb
00:21:48 – 00:21:50
Can I get another hand raised?
Ian
00:21:50 – 00:21:51
How do they I don't know if
Caleb
00:21:51 – 00:21:53
Aaron raises that, but Ian's refusing to say that.
Aaron
00:21:53 – 00:21:53
Oh, maybe
Ian
00:21:53 – 00:21:54
you did. Yeah.
Caleb
00:21:54 – 00:21:54
There
Ian
00:21:54 – 00:21:55
you go.
Caleb
00:21:55 – 00:22:13
Okay. So yeah. So it's basically you just plop in Flux, and now you got your modals, your drop downs, your tabs, your whatever, everything, and it's, like, also kind of a design system. There's layouts and, everything and badges, buttons, typography. You know, it's shad c n for Livewire, basically, is the best way to put it.
Caleb
00:22:14 – 00:22:35
Yeah. So I don't know. It's been a long time in the make this is something that people it was, like, the first thing that anybody ever asked me to do being Livewire, obviously. It's like, we need components, you know, and for so long, and I would I just knew it's one of those things, like, this is a massive giant thing that you can do, like, really poorly or insanely well. And the difference between those two things is, like, years.
Caleb
00:22:35 – 00:22:43
You know? And I wanted to do the really well thing, so basically kinda took the year to to do it. And then we got Hugo involved. Shout out to Hugo. Thank you, Hugo.
Caleb
00:22:43 – 00:22:52
He's watching right now because he's DMing me. Hugo, we love Hugo. He, he elevated everything. The design is just incredible, and it's so nice. And he yeah.
Caleb
00:22:52 – 00:23:15
He's just the best. So everything looks good because of Hugo, and he kinda, like, I I had a lot of experience building, like, UI components from headless Alpine. So, like, there's been iterations of Alpine components. So basically at one point, I, like, I decided to make headless UI, like, Tailwind's thing, make that in Alpine. And I did, and I mirrored the API almost exactly.
Caleb
00:23:15 – 00:23:42
I scoured every line of their code. I talked to, like, Rob and, like, people on their team, like, making sure that there's, like, parity. And that that was really the the boot camp, and that took, like, a year before this. And that was the boot camp of, like, oh, learning about all the ARIA patterns and best practices and keyboard stuff and performance stuff and just how deep it goes and how freaking complicated it is. And you every component you're like, okay.
Caleb
00:23:42 – 00:23:53
I just got through the, you know, I got through the popover, like, okay. What a disclosure. That's gonna be an easy one. That's gonna this one's gonna be easy. And then you're like, everything is so hard.
Caleb
00:23:53 – 00:24:30
So anyway, I didn't really use that code, but I used all that experience to build, like, a really robust JavaScript core under Flux that I think is, you know I mean, whatever. It's launching today. It's probably gonna have bugs, but it's, like, super robust, and it's gonna be a good kind of starting point for, yeah, really the non React world, basically. And that's kind of a long term vision is I wanna take that core and unearth it for other ecosystems, because I think it's, yeah, it's like the missing web primitives, like really easy tabs, custom selects, menus, like, cert whatever stuff. So so that's Flux.
Caleb
00:24:30 – 00:24:33
You know? You guys didn't know that. So good. I didn't
Aaron
00:24:33 – 00:24:35
know that. That's really helpful.
Caleb
00:24:35 – 00:24:40
That's the one we're doing here. They're like, wow. So that's the one that
Aaron
00:24:40 – 00:24:43
I maybe would've set up in the studio. Shoot. My bad.
Ian
00:24:44 – 00:24:52
That was literally the first thing I asked you for. I was like, damn, we need components, dude. Like, this is, like, years ago. Like you said, it's like everybody wanted the components. Like, who wants to go to React for this stuff?
Ian
00:24:52 – 00:25:15
Especially, like, Maybe you have these trade offs and like you're some huge company and you have a huge product You're like we want to use react fine whatever but for you know, if you're smaller if you're us even if you're bigger and you don't want the headache It's like we just want to stay in PHP with a little sprinkle of JavaScript That's what we want And there's not really much out there like that, and nothing of this quality, obviously. So it's very exciting.
Caleb
00:25:15 – 00:25:25
Yeah. And it it's one of the I mean, you know, this is one of those things. It's like, once you build it, you go, it's like, oh, well, nobody should ever build this ever. You know? Right.
Ian
00:25:25 – 00:25:27
Like, this is why it doesn't exist already.
Caleb
00:25:27 – 00:25:38
Yeah. And and, like, why was I ever I was such a fool ever building an app without something. Like like, what was I doing making these these apps that don't work? You know? Right.
Caleb
00:25:39 – 00:25:46
They just don't work. Not only do they not look good, they don't even work. So anyway yeah. So that's, that's Flux. You know?
Caleb
00:25:46 – 00:25:53
It's been, it's been quite the journey. Alright. It's time to give you guys the price update so you can, give your reactions on on live. Okay.
Aaron
00:25:53 – 00:25:58
Yeah. You don't wanna you you don't wanna share these numbers publicly? Are you saying the perfect reveal?
Caleb
00:25:58 – 00:26:01
I don't know. I don't know about sharing numbers publicly.
Aaron
00:26:01 – 00:26:05
I don't know. You're the million dollar GitHub sponsor guy, so I don't know. It's out there.
Ian
00:26:05 – 00:26:08
It's true. It's out there in the in the ether.
Caleb
00:26:09 – 00:26:21
I make millions on GitHub over a long period. I make 1 single million spread out over five years of ruling labor minus taxes.
Ian
00:26:22 – 00:26:29
I wonder if you're the biggest, like, GitHub donation guy. How many people can be making more than a million? Not many.
Caleb
00:26:30 – 00:26:58
I am. I don't know if they're authorized to tell me that, but they either maybe told me that, or they've I've seen how I at one point, I saw their volume, like, a year ago or something, like, just how much volume they did, and I'm, like, a fairly decent portion of that. Like, again, I don't know what to say, but, I'm pretty sure I'm the biggest individual, sponsor now. Maybe maybe less so now, because it is like I'm kind of branching out into other things. But,
Ian
00:26:59 – 00:27:04
Well, that was the thing because you pushed your products through it, basically. Like, that's how people bought your product.
Caleb
00:27:04 – 00:27:05
Yeah. It was like a payment processor.
Ian
00:27:05 – 00:27:08
Yeah. It was like a hack on your your payment processing. So
Caleb
00:27:09 – 00:27:23
thought it was a hack. And I, like, reached out to them super early on, and I was like, here's what I wanna do, but I wanna be totally above board about it because I don't wanna get shut down or anything. And I honestly thought that they would be like, man. Like, that's kind of an abuse of the spirit of what we're after. Right.
Caleb
00:27:23 – 00:27:42
And they were like, that's exactly what we want everybody to do. Do it, and then let's tell everybody about it and, like, restructure the whole, like, GitHub Sponsors system to have more features that are related to that. So then they added, like, you know, pay gated repos to do for, like, emulate, like, sponsorware. Right. Bunch of stuff like that.
Caleb
00:27:42 – 00:27:43
So
Ian
00:27:43 – 00:27:43
Wow. Yeah.
Caleb
00:27:43 – 00:27:51
That was I is that crazy? I was, like, I was really surprised. It's like, you guys, that's cool. I don't know. I thought I would be, poo pooed on that.
Ian
00:27:51 – 00:27:53
But Yeah. That's really cool.
Caleb
00:27:53 – 00:27:53
So Alright.
Ian
00:27:53 – 00:28:01
So I have a question for you then. Yeah. Related to the money, we don't have to get into details. Have you sold any teams yet? Because I was a little negative on the team
Aaron
00:28:01 – 00:28:02
I did.
Caleb
00:28:02 – 00:28:03
About the teams.
Ian
00:28:03 – 00:28:04
I was a little negative on the team.
Caleb
00:28:04 – 00:28:05
Thing is killer.
Ian
00:28:05 – 00:28:09
Not teams in general. This like, the way it's structured in this isn't Alright.
Caleb
00:28:09 – 00:28:10
Well, then we should talk about this. You
Aaron
00:28:10 – 00:28:11
got me.
Caleb
00:28:11 – 00:28:13
Did we talk about this, Ian? Because I feel like,
Ian
00:28:13 – 00:28:15
we did talk about it. They might just be new in there.
Caleb
00:28:15 – 00:28:21
Hear some, maybe you just kept this to yourself. Maybe I did. How do we find how do I find, like No.
Ian
00:28:21 – 00:28:23
I think we talked about it a little bit.
Caleb
00:28:24 – 00:28:27
I don't know how to do this. How do I find a sale on a
Ian
00:28:27 – 00:28:29
Stripe is so bad now, dude. I I can't find anything.
Caleb
00:28:29 – 00:28:33
I'm gonna open It's all possible. Team products. It's like, yeah, you have
Ian
00:28:33 – 00:28:47
to go to the team products, and then you have to, like there's some weird top tab with, like, the report or something. It's like there there's not just like, oh, I wanna see how many of each SKU I sold. Like, the most obvious thing everybody would want. No. There's no way to see it.
Ian
00:28:47 – 00:28:49
Like Right. There is a way, but it's weird.
Caleb
00:28:50 – 00:28:53
I yeah. So I'm clicking into each price.
Ian
00:28:53 – 00:28:54
Maybe in your database?
Caleb
00:28:54 – 00:29:01
Oh, okay. I can see it. Alright. So the first team tier, one to five seats, two active subscriptions. Okay?
Ian
00:29:01 – 00:29:01
Okay.
Caleb
00:29:02 – 00:29:15
So I'm I'm not hopeful that it's gonna go up from there. It's like zero on all the other ones. But this Right. I sort of anticipated that nobody's no, like, team is gonna go pounce at launch. Right?
Caleb
00:29:15 – 00:29:18
Like, it's not like there's not really a team discount
Ian
00:29:18 – 00:29:20
right you didn't discount it yeah
Caleb
00:29:20 – 00:29:23
the the team is like a long term sustainable like
Aaron
00:29:23 – 00:29:23
build you know
Caleb
00:29:23 – 00:29:38
businesses using this thing I don't really anticipate them being like insta buy this you know I really kind of pushed all the marketing and all the pricing for just individuals to just no brainer Insta buy. I'll buy this so that I just have it whenever I want it. You know?
Ian
00:29:39 – 00:29:39
Oh, man. I got
Aaron
00:29:39 – 00:29:40
Yeah.
Caleb
00:29:40 – 00:29:40
But the team
Aaron
00:29:40 – 00:29:41
thing problem with the food.
Caleb
00:29:41 – 00:29:42
Yeah. Let's talk teams.
Aaron
00:29:42 – 00:29:42
Like that?
Ian
00:29:42 – 00:29:44
I got I got questions all over the place here.
Caleb
00:29:45 – 00:29:46
To revamp the whole thing.
Aaron
00:29:46 – 00:29:46
So what's
Ian
00:29:46 – 00:29:52
your thoughts on the weekend? Ian to poop on your whole pricing scheme during the launch. Like, I don't know. Right.
Aaron
00:29:52 – 00:29:53
Stop the launch or whatever.
Ian
00:29:54 – 00:30:03
Right. Oh, nice update there, Caleb. So well, alright. On the teams, I just think I'm like, Caleb knows this. Right?
Ian
00:30:03 – 00:30:13
I'm big on this type of product being no brainer. It's just no brainer. Just no thought. Like, it's so obvious I must buy it. And I just feel like it's so clear with the other tiers.
Ian
00:30:13 – 00:30:17
Like, it's absolutely no brainer. You're totally insane if you don't buy this.
Caleb
00:30:17 – 00:30:17
Yeah.
Ian
00:30:17 – 00:30:37
But the teams, I think, gets and it's not because of the money. It's because it's like the way it's structured now is you have to, like, literally put in all your developers and then you have to maintain that. And then, like, what does that even mean? Like if I'm Disney from Laravel, is it all 500 developers who work at Disney? Is that what that means?
Ian
00:30:37 – 00:30:52
Is it only the ones who use this product? Like you get into all these weird edge cases. You get into a lot of, like, this is a maintenance thing for me that every time I hire or fire a developer, I have to go and update flux. That thing I haven't touched in three years, like, because it's just in there working at some point. Right?
Ian
00:30:52 – 00:31:03
Like, so there's a lot of overhead and com approvals and things like that. Whereas if it was just $9.99 for your team, I just can buy it, and I'm not even gonna think about it. And it's I it's already bought. So That's, I guess, two things.
Caleb
00:31:03 – 00:31:09
Two things, Ian. Yeah. Well, three things. First thing, you could totally be right. There's a good chance that you're right.
Caleb
00:31:10 – 00:31:14
Better chance that you're right. But here's where you're wrong, Ian.
Ian
00:31:14 – 00:31:14
Give it to me.
Caleb
00:31:14 – 00:31:27
I love that. I talked to one person who's a part of a team, and they were like, yeah. Nobody does the whole, like, I think you care a lot more about legality and stuff like that than a lot of these kinda small teams that are just like, we just buy the license, and it's fine.
Ian
00:31:27 – 00:31:27
Sure. Like,
Caleb
00:31:27 – 00:31:37
we all password share stuff. We have company GitHub accounts. Like, they were just kinda, like, here's the inside scoop. Nobody does the official, you know, thing. So I think there's that, and I've experienced that
Aaron
00:31:37 – 00:31:38
on a
Caleb
00:31:38 – 00:31:54
lot of my personal stuff when team pricing is just a licensing thing where it's, like, you don't get anything extra. It's not like a functional tier. It's just like a licensing legal tier, and I don't get a lot of traction on that. So this is my hook Mhmm. That that won't come into play right now.
Caleb
00:31:54 – 00:32:18
But the the idea is is the code snippets and maybe future templates and things are hidden behind a paywall because, like, you can't use the thing if you don't have a license anyway. So it's not like, you know, paywalling something that shouldn't be paywalled. It's like Mhmm. You know, I'm gonna make some there for advertisement public so people can see what the code looks like. But if you're a working developer, I don't care if you're Disney and you have 500 devs.
Caleb
00:32:18 – 00:32:40
All I care about is, like, give me the amount of money for how many people you need to be in this app all the time copying code snippets and working. It's not like me I probably should modify the, like, license or whatever to maybe express that. I don't know. But, but for me, it's like, this is my first functional team situation where it's like, you can hit copy invite link. It's like using Tubal or something.
Caleb
00:32:40 – 00:32:54
Like, real people getting value out of an actual app that they need access to. So they go to their boss, and they go, hey. Give me access or get me on this team thing or whatever. You know? That's kind of the idea as opposed to just, like, on your honor.
Caleb
00:32:54 – 00:32:57
You know? What do you think? Because it's changing it.
Ian
00:32:57 – 00:33:08
I I don't love it, but He doesn't I don't think I don't think it works that way. I don't think this is like that. At some point, like, if I build my whole app on this, I'm not gonna need to go to the docs anyway. Because I'm just gonna, like it's annoying. I go to the doc site.
Ian
00:33:08 – 00:33:17
I can't see what I need to see. I'm just gonna copy the code from the thousand other places that I now reference the Flux input, and I don't know. It's creates a lot of friction.
Caleb
00:33:17 – 00:33:34
If you're at that point, you just cancel your subscription or whatever. You get, like, you can install it in perpetuity. You just can't, like, get new stuff. You know? So if you because if you're only, like, the ride it out phase, like, you have it, and you can just have it and use it.
Caleb
00:33:34 – 00:33:41
But if you're actively working on an app, you're gonna be going to the docs. Like, you're gonna be building stuff, and you're gonna be in it. You know?
Ian
00:33:41 – 00:33:48
Think about the way I think about it is more like this. The amount of money if we go if we're trying to make the most money k. Right? That's the goal, presumably.
Caleb
00:33:48 – 00:33:49
I'll just pretend How
Ian
00:33:49 – 00:33:50
Forever this is right here.
Aaron
00:33:50 – 00:33:51
This is the most
Ian
00:33:51 – 00:33:52
Let's just pretend that I'm not talking.
Caleb
00:33:52 – 00:33:56
Okay. Non experiment. Non experiment. What Right.
Ian
00:33:57 – 00:34:06
So I I just think this is not a thing. It's not an app that people are actually in all day. Right? So then it's, like, in that at some point, it's not that. Yeah.
Aaron
00:34:06 – 00:34:06
Maybe in
Ian
00:34:06 – 00:34:17
the very beginning when I'm building out or whatever. Right? But, like, so how do I get the most money? And I just feel like the most money is making teams $9.99. It could even be $9.99 a year.
Ian
00:34:17 – 00:34:20
Like, if you just wanna have the subscription aspect
Aaron
00:34:20 – 00:34:20
Yeah.
Ian
00:34:20 – 00:34:34
Maybe that's something with that. Right? But it's not like assign your devs. We're not hiding the dot. It's like this is the legality is I just think nobody would buy more than one user, but I I think nobody's buying already.
Caleb
00:34:34 – 00:34:35
Dude, I got
Ian
00:34:35 – 00:34:43
two people out of all these sales. I know, but that's only two. That's only two on the one to five level. I'm saying, you wanna get these teams who are like, yeah. We have 20 devs.
Ian
00:34:43 – 00:34:46
Oh, great. I spent I keep paying with a thousand bucks. I don't have to think about this problem ever again.
Caleb
00:34:46 – 00:34:46
Yeah.
Ian
00:34:46 – 00:34:53
Versus, like I mean, now it's not even that much. Right? 10 to 20 is only $700. Obviously, I have to do 21. More and make it a no brainer.
Caleb
00:34:53 – 00:34:59
Yeah. Possibly. You're probably right. Let's should we change it? Are we doing this?
Ian
00:34:59 – 00:35:00
I just think you
Aaron
00:35:00 – 00:35:00
should think about it.
Ian
00:35:00 – 00:35:03
Are we changing this? Think about it. You should start the option.
Caleb
00:35:03 – 00:35:06
Let's see what works. The
Ian
00:35:06 – 00:35:11
the one other thing is No. Anything. One other little thing about the just a two Wait.
Aaron
00:35:11 – 00:35:11
Wait. Wait.
Caleb
00:35:11 – 00:35:24
I'm so sorry, Ian. Really quick. Aaron just said, don't do anything. We need to, like, like, there's, like, Aaron, like, do literally anything. Literally, like, don't Don't do anything.
Aaron
00:35:25 – 00:35:25
Do This
Caleb
00:35:25 – 00:35:27
is this is anti Eren.
Aaron
00:35:27 – 00:35:27
This is
Ian
00:35:27 – 00:35:30
I don't think you should touch on it right now. Yeah. I don't think you should
Caleb
00:35:30 – 00:35:31
touch on it. You can't
Ian
00:35:31 – 00:35:31
do things.
Caleb
00:35:32 – 00:35:33
You can't just do things.
Ian
00:35:33 – 00:35:38
I don't think I've ever heard him say that. This is fascinating. Yeah. I can't tell you. Point this out.
Caleb
00:35:38 – 00:35:39
It has to be pointed out.
Ian
00:35:40 – 00:35:56
The other thing is I would just say in terms of if you wanna push the team sales, is the unlimited version doesn't say anything about it being for only one dev. So, like Right. You might be able to be able to watch the unlimited and You're right. Oh, I bought the unlimited. That's unlimited, but it's actually not unlimited.
Ian
00:35:56 – 00:36:00
It's only unlimited for one dev, I think. Right? That's the idea.
Caleb
00:36:00 – 00:36:10
I changed the wording from yeah. I used to have so I had a toggle that was solo dev and team. And then we dissolved the toggle, and now there's no verbiage that says solo dev at all.
Ian
00:36:11 – 00:36:18
Right. So I, like, I could see people just being like, oh, I'm just buying the unlimited. Like, that's the one that's called out. It's the one that's unlimited. I feel like I think I'm in Yeah.
Caleb
00:36:18 – 00:36:18
I think I have
Ian
00:36:18 – 00:36:19
the that's the one I should
Caleb
00:36:19 – 00:36:23
buy. Yeah. Potential. Okay. Okay.
Ian
00:36:23 – 00:36:27
Got it. Because it might just be the team version, gives you templates or whatever.
Caleb
00:36:28 – 00:36:30
Aaron is looking at the website.
Aaron
00:36:30 – 00:36:33
Because I'm because I'm doing too much off of my phone.
Ian
00:36:33 – 00:36:50
I wanna go ahead and get you that upsized your phone. But I do really I was I think you made a smart move there, Caleb, on, like, what you did with the pricing and the email you sent and, like, make it's unlimited. It's free updates. Let's we're launching with this. Like, come buy it.
Ian
00:36:50 – 00:37:11
Like, again, super no brainer. Yeah. I feel like that's being reflected in your sales and like, it's just an obvious thing that everybody's gonna wanna use. And I think also there's all the other use cases like, you know, I would buy this if I only need to use a, I guess that's the thing. That's just the more no brainer is the more I'm willing to buy it for stupid reasons.
Ian
00:37:11 – 00:37:18
Like, oh, I need two of the components. Right. I'm built doing a thing with a date picker. I wanna use Caleb's date picker. I don't know if there's date picker in here.
Ian
00:37:18 – 00:37:18
Come on. You know
Aaron
00:37:18 – 00:37:18
what I'm saying?
Caleb
00:37:18 – 00:37:20
Like marketing. You're good.
Ian
00:37:20 – 00:37:23
It's on the road map. Yeah. I'm on the road map.
Caleb
00:37:23 – 00:37:23
Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.
Ian
00:37:23 – 00:37:41
Wait. But I'm only gonna use two. I'm not rebuilding my whole product. I'm just building and adding a feature to help spot. And I'd like to use these two components.
Ian
00:37:41 – 00:37:51
Right? So, you know, the easier it is for me to buy it and just be like, yeah, I'm throwing it into this thing to use two components first, like, feeling like it's I'm waiting for the big new thing. Whatever. It's, like, great. It's unlimited.
Ian
00:37:51 – 00:38:01
It's, like, not for me. It's not. But, you know, in theory, it's unlimited, for a solo dev person, and the and you can just buy it, and that's it. And, you know, you can just use it for whatever you want. So
Caleb
00:38:01 – 00:38:09
I think that's awesome. Yeah. And that's something I didn't, like, put an emphasis on that at all because there's just, like, too much to figure out and where to put emphasis and whatever. But, like
Ian
00:38:09 – 00:38:10
Yeah.
Caleb
00:38:10 – 00:38:24
Yes. There I from what I heard the way I see it is totally, like, the drop down menu alone, which, by the way, is open source, so you don't actually have to buy Flux for the drop down menu. But just take the drop down menu, rip out the styles, you know, conform them to your own app.
Ian
00:38:24 – 00:38:25
Just do your own thing. Yeah.
Caleb
00:38:25 – 00:38:47
And then now you just have a good drop down component in your existing, you know, setup, and do that with any one of them. Take the modal and just just take that. Yeah. Or and there's even ones that aren't even, like, have no head that aren't styled at all. Like, you could take the context component with your own button and your own popover, and then you have, like, right clicks that are completely your your own thing.
Caleb
00:38:47 – 00:38:48
So anyway, yeah, there's a lot
Ian
00:38:48 – 00:38:59
of toast, which has, like, a front, obviously, but it's still, like, sort of a thing. I might just drop toast into my existing app, right, which don't have toast or have crappy toast or whatever, all that kind of stuff.
Aaron
00:38:59 – 00:39:01
Can I tell can I tell the time to tell the time to tell the time to tell
Caleb
00:39:01 – 00:39:02
the time to tell
Aaron
00:39:02 – 00:39:05
the time to Time out? Report? What? No. What's what's this great?
Aaron
00:39:05 – 00:39:18
I'm not getting reports. You are getting reports of 500 errors on Oh. Let me see. You click the licenses to pay 500 error. I'm looking at Twitter chat.
Aaron
00:39:18 – 00:39:20
It's nice to be online. I love being online. I I
Caleb
00:39:20 – 00:39:24
have Hey. Twitter chat. 500. Yeah. OpenFlare.
Caleb
00:39:25 – 00:39:29
Ian, can you can you keep talking to yourself or something?
Ian
00:39:29 – 00:39:31
I will keep talking.
Aaron
00:39:31 – 00:39:37
How about it's possible you're issuing two licensed phones for every every one purchase?
Caleb
00:39:37 – 00:39:40
It's probable. It's probable.
Aaron
00:39:40 – 00:39:47
So if anywhere that you have an n equals two, they're changing to n equals one because they just need one code for purchase. So
Caleb
00:39:47 – 00:39:51
That happened in local, and it, like, didn't happen again. And I thought that I was
Ian
00:39:51 – 00:39:52
I hate when that happens.
Caleb
00:39:52 – 00:39:52
Shoot.
Aaron
00:39:52 – 00:39:54
Hate when that happened.
Caleb
00:39:54 – 00:39:57
Why does that happen? I don't know. Okay.
Ian
00:39:57 – 00:40:24
The other thing I like I'll just keep talking, while you look at that. Is about the other thing I like about single about the idea of, only using a handful of these components and people are willing to pay for that And then there's so many more existing apps than new apps, right? There's only ever so many new apps. So the more this feels like a thing where I can just take a couple components to pop them into my existing app. And and now I have a really nice whatever that's accessible and works great.
Ian
00:40:24 – 00:40:39
Like, that's again, it's not a lot of money. I'm gonna just buy it and not putz around with figuring out the open source. You know, the 84 open source ones that are all terrible or, building my own, of course, which is gonna be way more than however much you pay for flex even on a team plan. So
Caleb
00:40:40 – 00:40:40
Should've been called.
Ian
00:40:40 – 00:40:44
I like the idea of leaning into that. These components could be used individually. Opportunity.
Caleb
00:40:44 – 00:40:51
I said flexion. Flux. I said it should've been called flex. Flux.
Ian
00:40:53 – 00:40:54
No. Flux. What?
Caleb
00:40:54 – 00:40:55
I said flux.
Ian
00:40:55 – 00:40:59
We have to go back to the videotape on that. Okay. Man, that's a flux. I don't like it.
Caleb
00:40:59 – 00:41:01
It should've been called flex. Continue.
Ian
00:41:01 – 00:41:04
That would've been cool. That would have been confusing. I like plucks.
Caleb
00:41:05 – 00:41:06
Go on.
Ian
00:41:06 – 00:41:08
Nah. That's all I had. Now I'm done talking.
Caleb
00:41:09 – 00:41:12
Yes. Marketing thing. Yep. Are
Aaron
00:41:12 – 00:41:15
you still looking for 500 errors? Do you need me to vamp?
Caleb
00:41:16 – 00:41:31
I mean, like, what? Like, these are things that I could investigate right now, but I think it would be the kinda, like, dropping out of this call, and I think I'm just gonna go, we'll we'll let the dust settle. I'll catch it all. You know? It's like I mean, things are You got people are buying.
Caleb
00:41:32 – 00:41:43
Code. You're good. If you got a 500, refresh, try a new email. I don't know. Maybe maybe you could give them my password.
Caleb
00:41:43 – 00:41:53
They could go in, turn turn debug on, change app debug to true, then help me out. But I don't see anything obvious in Flare that's
Ian
00:41:53 – 00:41:55
like It can assure people
Caleb
00:41:55 – 00:41:56
super bad problem. You know?
Ian
00:41:56 – 00:42:08
Yeah. That many people are buying. So it's definitely possible and generally working. Mhmm. We might need you know, you might if you might have an individual issue that you gotta, yeah, do do the try again.
Caleb
00:42:08 – 00:42:10
We're sorry about that, folks.
Ian
00:42:11 – 00:42:13
Oh, man. We can only be wasting a few days.
Caleb
00:42:13 – 00:42:15
We can only, yeah.
Ian
00:42:15 – 00:42:16
Full on three button.
Caleb
00:42:16 – 00:42:17
Two keys.
Ian
00:42:17 – 00:42:20
Yeah. I'm ready for that. You have to be prepared to share your desktop in that scenario.
Caleb
00:42:21 – 00:42:27
Yeah. True. People people wouldn't be being charged twice. Right? Like, that is something I should freaking make sure.
Ian
00:42:27 – 00:42:29
You might wanna look at quickly. I mean,
Aaron
00:42:29 – 00:42:30
just let them check that.
Caleb
00:42:30 – 00:42:32
I I mean, there'll be one after
Ian
00:42:32 – 00:42:33
the other in Stripe. So
Caleb
00:42:34 – 00:42:36
Yeah. I got a I
Aaron
00:42:36 – 00:42:47
got a DM with a potential possibility that you might you'll you'll have to look into later. Sebastian from Beyond Code said Stripe sends webhooks at least once, and you might be getting them.
Caleb
00:42:47 – 00:43:00
Yeah. It's probably just retrying webhooks and maybe but I thought I made them idempotent. Potentially. Stripe even gives you an idempotency key to just make it really easy, which is pretty awesome. Mhmm.
Caleb
00:43:00 – 00:43:01
And And then you get to say idempotency.
Ian
00:43:02 – 00:43:03
Who doesn't love that?
Caleb
00:43:03 – 00:43:15
Who doesn't love that? Alright. I'm gonna go to Stripe real quick, give a quick check on this webhook situation to make sure that they're green, man. Sebastian said what did he say about webhooks? Did they fire it twice for fun?
Aaron
00:43:16 – 00:43:22
It possibly could've fired twice when you're for the reason. So maybe it was That's
Caleb
00:43:23 – 00:43:28
pretty weird. Stripe is firing webhooks randomly twice. Dang it.
Aaron
00:43:28 – 00:43:33
Eventually consistent or something like that. Sometimes Maybe because it because there's, like,
Caleb
00:43:34 – 00:43:39
slow, and then and then they're like, oh, try this while we're waiting. We'll try again or something.
Ian
00:43:39 – 00:43:46
Yeah. Maybe it was just when the server was messed up that it was slow responding, and so then it was refiring after five seconds or whatever.
Caleb
00:43:46 – 00:43:55
Maybe. It was, like, thirty seconds there. I wonder. Recent, and it's not every time, but there's definitely, like, some checkout session. Like, here's one.
Caleb
00:43:55 – 00:44:05
Checkout session completed. It's literally the exact same exact same time stamp. It's a different event ID, but I wonder if it's, like, the same customer. So I don't know. Who knows?
Caleb
00:44:05 – 00:44:13
We'll figure it out. Who knows? I'm sorry if there's something wrong, but it's it's clearly, like, fairly isolated. So, Ian, let me respond to your thing, actually.
Ian
00:44:14 – 00:44:14
Do it.
Caleb
00:44:14 – 00:44:37
I didn't but that's something that I didn't bother communicating is, like, hey. Just because it also feels like, okay. Stop, you know, stop with the reasons that I need to get this or I'm really stupid. It's like, yeah. Like, you can just use there's so many ways to just use Flux and not even use the design or not even use, like, any part of it, not use it as a design system, but just use it as, like, good primitives, good UI primitives for your app.
Caleb
00:44:37 – 00:44:52
So that's a whole other story that's, like, I just had to kinda pick what my story was, and I don't know. But that was review I thought that people would assume that, but then I like, hearing from a lot of people, they're like, oh, like, oh, I can't wait to use this in my next project. And I'm like, Right. I can use it in this project if you want though.
Ian
00:44:52 – 00:45:18
You know? Because it, because it's so designed, I do feel like it gives that default vibe of like, oh, if I just, if I use any of these, I gotta use all of them or I can't just drop it in the middle of my project, but really you can, because you have this, the styles broken out and you can just restyle it to look like your other components that are already in your existing app. So, yeah, I think your website I mean, obviously, you haven't had time for this yet, but you gotta flush out the website, like, a lot. Like, in the the landing page. Docs.
Ian
00:45:18 – 00:45:26
Yeah. But I think it should be more than a landing page. Like, I think you should have some different pages that talk about these different use cases specifically and stuff like that.
Caleb
00:45:26 – 00:45:28
Yeah. That's the large stuff.
Ian
00:45:28 – 00:45:37
The big landing page that tries to do it all. I mean, whatever. There's different approaches. But, like, really get into, like, the different ways you can use this and the from the, like, just drop it in. It's magical.
Ian
00:45:37 – 00:45:47
Don't think of anything else. All the way down to, like, it's really just a skeleton, and you can layer over whatever panels you want on it and make it look however you want and do whatever you want and all that. And go
Aaron
00:45:47 – 00:45:47
through all.
Caleb
00:45:47 – 00:46:10
Communication to be done. And when Hugo and I were just, like, talking landing page ideas and, like, what what do we wanna do with it, we kept coming back to, like, some of these, you know, I don't wanna constantly reference chat CN, but chat CN, like, the landing page is so simple because Right. It's just ubiquitous. Like, it has a reputation. You go straight to the components and you look at them, and it's kinda self evident.
Caleb
00:46:10 – 00:46:22
And that was that was the motivation for us. It was like, okay. So we kill ourselves on this giant landing page to communicate every tidbit, or is it just, like, people know the the class of product that this is. It slots into their brain. They can go look at all the components.
Caleb
00:46:22 – 00:46:30
We're good to go. But that line of thinking led me to the oh, when you only have the landing page, you know, hilarity issues.
Ian
00:46:30 – 00:46:40
Well, and also, I mean, right, I mean, I think that all makes sense. It's all logically consistent. Right? Because if Shatsyen is a free and open source thing, and that's all it's ever been. Right?
Ian
00:46:40 – 00:46:44
And it's like, here it is. Use it. Don't use it. You like the landing page? Don't.
Ian
00:46:44 – 00:46:51
Whatever. Who cares? And then they got acquired. Right? So it looks like they're corporate sponsored to be free now, and that's it.
Ian
00:46:51 – 00:47:16
Whereas you are trying to go somewhere different with this. Right? It's like, no, I gotta convince people to separate the money from their wallet and also, you know, longer term goals of, like building this into a many year long, very successful, profitable business. Right? So, like, that's a different kind of website to me than, like, I think it makes sense day one to be like, we gotta get something up.
Ian
00:47:16 – 00:47:32
Let's copy Shad's general vibe in terms of a simple landing page, its components, people know about it. But I think for a business, that's probably not true. And, also, even just going between React and PHP Laravels, that's not true. Because, like, in React land, there's a million component libraries. Everybody gets it.
Caleb
00:47:32 – 00:47:32
Yeah.
Ian
00:47:32 – 00:47:34
Right? But here, there's not a million component libraries.
Aaron
00:47:34 – 00:47:35
I mean,
Ian
00:47:35 – 00:47:38
the ones that are are very different, right, from from Flux.
Caleb
00:47:38 – 00:47:42
So They all have different, yeah. There's some that are more
Ian
00:47:42 – 00:47:45
light heavier. Right? Heavier and some are lighter. You know? Right.
Ian
00:47:45 – 00:47:48
So I think this needs more explanation for
Aaron
00:47:48 – 00:47:48
the
Ian
00:47:48 – 00:47:54
part of the market that hasn't been as exposed to components as Yeah. The React has. You know?
Aaron
00:47:54 – 00:47:58
Ian Ian, here's my question. Where was this advice before launch morning? What
Caleb
00:47:58 – 00:48:02
is here. Where was this advice last night at 10PM?
Ian
00:48:03 – 00:48:04
It's alright. It's fine.
Caleb
00:48:04 – 00:48:05
We have time.
Aaron
00:48:05 – 00:48:06
I think
Ian
00:48:06 – 00:48:12
this is fine because you know what? The people buying right now are people who know Caleb, and they're they're in. Right? They're in Livewire. It's fine.
Caleb
00:48:12 – 00:48:13
Yeah.
Ian
00:48:13 – 00:48:20
This is fine for, like, the launch landing page. It's doing well. It's fine. But for the, like, a year from now, I don't think it's fine for a year from now necessarily. Yeah.
Caleb
00:48:20 – 00:48:22
There's two different things here.
Ian
00:48:22 – 00:48:26
What this can be. Right? Like Yeah. Yeah. That's the difference to me.
Ian
00:48:26 – 00:48:39
It's like, yeah. This is, like, people who know Caleb who are on his list, who are, like, all aboard the train. That's a separate group from people who randomly behind you from a PHP component search on Google. Right? Yeah.
Ian
00:48:39 – 00:48:44
That's a totally different person, and you wanna get them too, but that's a different kind of
Caleb
00:48:44 – 00:48:47
work. Yes. Yeah. That's a whole thing.
Aaron
00:48:47 – 00:48:52
How are we doing? Give us some many how many retweets, many
Caleb
00:48:52 – 00:48:58
Oh, alright. Haven't even looked at Twitter. Okay. It feels good so far. Numbers so far.
Caleb
00:48:58 – 00:48:59
Wise, Caleb is happy.
Aaron
00:49:02 – 00:49:02
I Caleb is happy. Make sure
Caleb
00:49:02 – 00:49:21
I I more so now than before, I make sure to set my expectations as low as I can reasonably do for myself and really try hard to convince myself that it's gonna totally flop. Nobody cares, and I'm gonna make $0 because I've been, like you know, I think I said this on the podcast. I've, like, historically have been let down on launch days. You know? Yeah.
Caleb
00:49:21 – 00:49:27
So it's like, no. No. Just prepare yourself. It's a you know, the the train goes on the tracks and it chugs along. It's like a longer thing.
Caleb
00:49:27 – 00:49:36
It's not just the first ten minutes. Yep. So it's already, like, way way more than than my super low expectation. So I'm feeling good about it. Great.
Caleb
00:49:36 – 00:49:44
It's like I have I have, like, total good feeling, like, yeah. This worked. Cool. It's like people are pumped. It's, it this is validating.
Caleb
00:49:44 – 00:49:52
It's all good for me. So let's look at some Twitter stuff because I haven't even literally opened that.
Aaron
00:49:52 – 00:49:58
Well, that's what that's what you get when you have a super high quality live stream production. You know, you can just totally exceed
Caleb
00:49:58 – 00:50:00
expectation. That's right.
Ian
00:50:00 – 00:50:04
There's already Yes. There's a black market forming for the extra license keys. So that's
Caleb
00:50:04 – 00:50:06
Oh my gosh. Oh my god.
Ian
00:50:06 – 00:50:10
No. I I don't think really people are joking around, but it is kinda funny. That's funny.
Caleb
00:50:11 – 00:50:28
Yeah. Because that's a tricky one. I I think I I think I'm still in, like, a grace period window of, like, a day or two where I could revoke that second added one, and it's like, well, you just you know, if you happen to have used it in a project, like, in one day, like, that's on you. Just, like, kill them all day.
Ian
00:50:28 – 00:50:31
Worry about it. Don't even think about it. Just fix the error and never think about
Caleb
00:50:31 – 00:50:32
it again. Don't worry about
Ian
00:50:32 – 00:50:43
the two, like, that's too, like, the same person. They can only use it once. Yeah. Who can you know what I mean? Like, you're just gonna make a bunch of support where, like, you turn off half the licenses for people because they use the second one, they use the first one, whatever.
Ian
00:50:43 – 00:50:44
Keep going.
Caleb
00:50:45 – 00:51:11
You didn't leave at 1AM, so it's on. Last night, I issued, 1,500 licenses to which I yep. 1,500 licenses took forever, and I had no idea why, but to test at example.com, and I couldn't figure it out for the life of me. And I started putting, like, all these logs all over, binning in, like, trying to figure out what the hell is going on, thinking it's a problem. I don't know.
Caleb
00:51:11 – 00:51:24
I did fix it, but it's just, like, funny licensing it. I have so much to clean up. Like, those licenses are just there, and they're part of, like, you know, I'm, like, quote, unquote paying for them on any stack. Like, it's all part of the, like, quota.
Ian
00:51:24 – 00:51:25
That part's annoying.
Caleb
00:51:25 – 00:51:28
Yeah. So whatever. I can say from
Aaron
00:51:28 – 00:51:29
my own
Ian
00:51:29 – 00:51:51
experience, building your own store, which is what we have for HealthSpa is a terrible idea and horrible. But there are times you can't avoid it and it does let you do things which you otherwise can't do if you just only play in the Stripe Playground. Right? Like, you can just do other sorts of things. So it does have its advantages, but it is very annoying that it's not a pretested built and wonderful system.
Ian
00:51:51 – 00:51:55
You have to go through all the bugs about building a software product
Caleb
00:51:56 – 00:52:00
Dude, it's not. It's so gnarly. Yeah. It's so gnarly. It's so
Ian
00:52:01 – 00:52:06
It will never end for you. I'm telling you that right now. It just bugs all the way down.
Caleb
00:52:06 – 00:52:08
It's it's just bugs, bugs, bugs. Yeah.
Ian
00:52:08 – 00:52:22
And they always get pushed off where the screen's not perfect or something's wrong. You can't get the data you need. Are you gonna do it now? Or do you wait and then you just do stuff in the database manually all the time? Because you're like, well, I don't wanna build the thing to the store because I'm working on the actual product and
Aaron
00:52:23 – 00:52:23
yeah.
Caleb
00:52:23 – 00:52:31
Yes. And when you're building the thing, it's it's like it's so MVP. Get it. It's it's the last priority. It doesn't improve anything.
Caleb
00:52:31 – 00:52:45
You know? It's not nobody's like, oh, I hope the licensing system is really, like, works well and is fast and good. It's like they just expect that. Yeah. So it it's just this thing that doesn't really add value, but it's so much work.
Caleb
00:52:46 – 00:52:51
Like, way too much work. Yeah. Just way too deep.
Ian
00:52:51 – 00:53:07
Spent literally a year rebuilding our back office, like, last year. It was literally a year because we have, like, twenty years of different license things. We keep supporting the old ones and Yeah. It does all this other stuff. Like, it we handle invoices and credit cards and checks and whatever.
Caleb
00:53:07 – 00:53:07
There's a
Ian
00:53:07 – 00:53:14
million things, and it's like it's a humongous application we should probably be selling because it's, like, that's how big it is. Like, crazy.
Caleb
00:53:15 – 00:53:23
It was very important for me to flub up the the first launch, the preorder launch, because I just learned, like, so much. And
Ian
00:53:23 – 00:53:24
Yeah. One of
Caleb
00:53:24 – 00:53:35
those really valuable lessons that I think we've talked about, but it's, like, Europeans need their VAT numbers and stuff on their invoices, and they need invoices, which is so weird because I don't issue invoices for anything, for any of
Aaron
00:53:35 – 00:53:35
my other
Caleb
00:53:35 – 00:53:37
stuff, and nobody says a word.
Ian
00:53:37 – 00:53:40
It's like This is the product. This is more product y than the other
Caleb
00:53:40 – 00:53:49
things. It's more product y. So it's just Yeah. Yeah. It was one of those that hidden secret knowledge that just whacked me in the face when I just was like, oh, yeah.
Caleb
00:53:49 – 00:54:03
Why do you, you know, 650 people need, like, invoices? Okay. Well, I'll build a quick invoice generator that there's, like, one morning alone. All this to say, if I didn't pitch you on ZenVoice, it's so sick. This is Mark Liu's thing.
Caleb
00:54:03 – 00:54:04
Oh, it's the best.
Ian
00:54:05 – 00:54:06
Oh, interesting.
Caleb
00:54:06 – 00:54:40
I mean, it's a very MVP scrappy kind of microsass, but it is to it is like the perfect representation of of somebody I mean, like, here's an annoying problem that a certain subset of people know so well, and the pitch is as simple as, like, one sentence, like Stripe invoicing fixed. And then it's like, don't you know, I'm making this up, but it's essentially this. It's like, don't deal with support requests for, like, adding VAT IDs to invoices, and I was like, oh my soul. And the pricing is generous. It's one time pricing for a SaaS,
Aaron
00:54:41 – 00:54:41
and
Caleb
00:54:41 – 00:54:53
it's, like, $70. So I literally I spent hours issuing invoices and adding custom stuff, and then I just was like, oh my god. $70? And then you're done. You put a link in your dashboard.
Caleb
00:54:53 – 00:55:00
There's a link that's called invoices that somebody clicks. They click it. They put in their email. They're on ZenVoice now. They put in their email.
Caleb
00:55:00 – 00:55:04
ZenVoice sent there's no law there's no username, password login. There's no o auth. This is Just
Ian
00:55:04 – 00:55:05
bills that
Caleb
00:55:05 – 00:55:20
you level stuff. They they send you a login link. You know? This is just so MVP. And then you open it, and because I authenticate it with Stripe and whatever, they see a table of all their Stripe orders from me, from my store, and then they can customize their invoice.
Caleb
00:55:20 – 00:55:28
It's literally the thing that I was building for myself, which is awesome and all integrated. So they can add they can customize all their own details. I don't have to fiddle, fuddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle,
Ian
00:55:28 – 00:55:29
fiddle, fiddle,
Caleb
00:55:29 – 00:55:41
fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, f So Yeah. Shout out to ZenVoice.
Ian
00:55:41 – 00:55:44
These are all things people have to relearn. It's crazy.
Caleb
00:55:44 – 00:55:47
Yep. So we learned. We learned.
Ian
00:55:47 – 00:56:03
Maybe someday it'll deal with purchase orders. That's what we also deal with, which is a whole contract. I know you love contracts, But purchase order contracts, if you get big teams that wanna buy, you know, a hundred licenses, they're gonna be like, yeah. Well, we gotta do a purchase order, and you gotta send us licenses, whatever, the whole thing.
Caleb
00:56:04 – 00:56:11
Yeah. That sounds, well, you're, yeah, you're in it, Ian. You know, you're I'm deep in it. We're deep. You're really in it.
Ian
00:56:11 – 00:56:18
We're well, producer producer Dave, has a, people are asking how long the launch discount is.
Caleb
00:56:21 – 00:56:24
No idea. I have toyed with
Ian
00:56:25 – 00:56:27
I think it should be forever, basically.
Caleb
00:56:27 – 00:56:35
I thought, like, a day At least the time. A week, and then I'm like, yeah. I don't know. I I don't know. I don't know.
Caleb
00:56:35 – 00:56:43
I can't commit to it. If I ever commit to anything, then I will I will either be held to something I hate or I will lie to you. That's just the
Ian
00:56:43 – 00:56:46
way How about at least? At minimum?
Caleb
00:56:46 – 00:56:49
Oh, at minimum a few days. Yeah. Okay.
Aaron
00:56:49 – 00:56:57
Yeah. Here's here's my here's my lunch. You know? Mhmm. You gotta you gotta keep it going for a while to get the big lunch spike.
Aaron
00:56:58 – 00:57:04
Let that die down a little bit. And then when you send out an email, it says the lunch, the early access discount is going away. That's the
Caleb
00:57:04 – 00:57:05
done in spite. So you gotta you gotta
Aaron
00:57:05 – 00:57:07
spread those two things out just a little bit.
Ian
00:57:07 – 00:57:11
Excellent point. You got it's gotta be, like, weeks then. Couple weeks.
Aaron
00:57:11 – 00:57:11
Mhmm. Yeah.
Caleb
00:57:11 – 00:57:13
I don't know about a couple weeks, but definitely Yeah.
Ian
00:57:13 – 00:57:14
You're not feeling it.
Caleb
00:57:14 – 00:57:18
No. I mean, I've I know. Totally. I mean, that's that's the move. That's the the formula.
Caleb
00:57:18 – 00:57:38
You do the thing, and then you go hike, and you do that thing. And then Black Friday comes and you go hike, and then that's your that's your marketing strategy for the year. Mhmm. So definitely gonna do it, but, yeah, I don't know the timeline around it. I still like, I guess I there's a part of me that wants to be, like, true to it being, like, a special thing, you know, and not just, like, do this right now.
Aaron
00:57:38 – 00:57:39
Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.
Aaron
00:57:39 – 00:57:39
Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.
Aaron
00:57:39 – 00:57:39
Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.
Aaron
00:57:39 – 00:57:39
Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.
Aaron
00:57:39 – 00:57:39
Oh.
Caleb
00:57:39 – 00:57:54
Oh. Oh, oh. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Oh that's pretty hefty
Ian
00:57:54 – 00:57:56
for the solo dev tier.
Caleb
00:57:56 – 00:57:58
That's like that come from, Ian? Well, it came from
Ian
00:57:59 – 00:57:59
Where did it come from?
Caleb
00:57:59 – 00:58:14
Well, so the initial pitch was $99 a project for one year for one project. You know? Right. So it's like if you build up from that. So at that, people were DM ing me and being like, I just need an unlimited tier.
Caleb
00:58:14 – 00:58:22
It's just it'll make my life so easy. I'm a freelancer. Just tons of this. They're like, get an unlimited tier. I'll happily pay you $500, whatever.
Caleb
00:58:22 – 00:58:32
But if it's unlimited and they were saying $500 a year. They're just like, I just need unlimited projects because I wanna use this in pet stuff. I wanna use this in client projects, and I don't wanna fiddle with, you know, individual stuff. Yeah.
Aaron
00:58:32 – 00:58:32
So that
Caleb
00:58:32 – 00:58:51
was kinda lodged in my head as, like, okay. What people are at least what I know that a decent subset of this market, the freelancer, contractor, solo dev subset would pay $500 for just all access. Then the rest of folks, there's, like, a more accessible price. And so that's where 500 came from. But it is it is a high anchor.
Caleb
00:58:51 – 00:58:57
I don't know if I'll, like, immediately switch back to 500, but that's that was sort of the plan.
Ian
00:58:57 – 00:59:04
Man, it's killing me that it doesn't say, like, solo dev or one dev on there, man. The business dad legal Ian
Caleb
00:59:04 – 00:59:05
is like His dad's upset.
Ian
00:59:05 – 00:59:13
I'm doing I'm doing the I don't know. This is scary. Scary. Yeah. Not it's not enough money that anybody's gonna actually, like, care in a sense.
Ian
00:59:13 – 00:59:20
Right? So that's the good side. It's like, somebody's gonna sue you and be like, you told me I could use it with unlimited, but it's not unlimited and whatever.
Caleb
00:59:20 – 00:59:23
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I gotta do that.
Caleb
00:59:23 – 00:59:34
I think it yeah. I could just add a single line item. There's a little that that's this is how I make business decisions. Is there enough space to add an extra one without, like, messing up all the, like, the tier, like, invites? It's like, okay.
Caleb
00:59:34 – 00:59:36
There is. I can solve that problem. Forget.
Ian
00:59:37 – 00:59:41
I got I got another thing I wanna talk about too of questions for you.
Caleb
00:59:42 – 00:59:42
Hit me.
Ian
00:59:42 – 00:59:47
But let me see. I'm I'm reading I'm you guys talk for a second. I gotta read something here before I
Caleb
00:59:47 – 00:59:48
get to answer your question.
Ian
00:59:48 – 00:59:50
Yeah. What did what is your haircut? In that car.
Aaron
00:59:51 – 00:59:52
Yeah. Eric, do you need
Caleb
00:59:52 – 00:59:53
to crack a window?
Aaron
00:59:54 – 01:00:04
I'm not a great start to the week. I'm gonna be honest. You know you know, weekends are tough, and then the week starts and the weeks are tough, and then the weekends come and weekends stop and just
Caleb
01:00:04 – 01:00:05
And the weekends stop.
Aaron
01:00:05 – 01:00:10
Round and round we go. We're doing okay. We're making it. We're making it. Alright.
Caleb
01:00:10 – 01:00:17
What you need to do, I think, is what I'm going to do, which is a conference that you're not speaking and aren't involved in in any way.
Aaron
01:00:18 – 01:00:19
Yeah. That sounds fine.
Caleb
01:00:19 – 01:00:24
It's like a vacation, I think. I think I'm about to take the first vacation the first, like, real vacation I've had in a very
Ian
01:00:24 – 01:00:24
long time.
Caleb
01:00:24 – 01:00:28
Oh, wow. Real time. Out at Rails World? Oh, Rails Conference. Yeah.
Caleb
01:00:28 – 01:00:38
Rails World. Yeah. I'm so excited. Like, I have nothing to do and nothing to prepare for. I'm just gonna go and, like, you know, I can't wait.
Caleb
01:00:38 – 01:00:39
Just stand off.
Aaron
01:00:39 – 01:00:40
That's awesome. That's awesome. That's
Caleb
01:00:42 – 01:00:44
yeah. So maybe that's the move
Aaron
01:00:44 – 01:00:48
It's gonna be you and Adam and Taylor. Y'all just gonna hang out the whole time.
Caleb
01:00:48 – 01:00:52
It's true. I'm very excited. Very excited. Oh, Taylor's going to be pretty sure.
Aaron
01:00:52 – 01:00:53
Is going. Is he?
Caleb
01:00:53 – 01:00:55
So yeah. Hang with him.
Aaron
01:00:55 – 01:00:55
Yeah.
Caleb
01:00:57 – 01:01:08
And then the few people I know in in rails, you know, that, like, hopefully, they'll wanna hang out with me, but I get it. Like, this is their turf. You know? They got people to see. They got hands to shake.
Ian
01:01:08 – 01:01:17
So what are you what are you hoping to get out of RailsConf? Are you Oh, I mean deals of the Rails ecosystem? Are you just, like, hanging out? Or you just take how
Caleb
01:01:17 – 01:01:18
long ago is it?
Ian
01:01:18 – 01:01:19
Is it multiple days
Caleb
01:01:19 – 01:01:22
of two hours from my house. Oh, god. That's nice. I'm going
Ian
01:01:22 – 01:01:24
to go Toronto. I never mind. Have to
Caleb
01:01:24 – 01:01:39
go. Right. And my friends are going. And and then there's also this, like, feeling out, like, what the rails ecosystem is like and if there's some sort of maybe opportunity to do a little bit flux in up the rails world or a little bit of
Aaron
01:01:39 – 01:01:39
hostile takeover.
Caleb
01:01:40 – 01:01:40
Something going on
Ian
01:01:40 – 01:01:42
in hostile to go.
Caleb
01:01:42 – 01:01:46
It's like there's a little bit of strategy here. You're just a little bit of, like, hey. Let's go
Aaron
01:01:46 – 01:01:48
on your rails. How are your drop downs, guys?
Caleb
01:01:48 – 01:01:51
Go see my friends. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah.
Caleb
01:01:51 – 01:01:52
Yeah. Well, how do you I'm
Ian
01:01:52 – 01:01:57
just going to see my friend. She's a girl, but I'm just my friend. Here. Yeah. Yeah.
Ian
01:01:57 – 01:02:00
Sure. Go here. Yeah.
Caleb
01:02:01 – 01:02:02
Aaron, that's No.
Ian
01:02:02 – 01:02:08
I think the reverse. This is what you're telling your actual girlfriend. I'm going to hang out with other girls. She's just my friend. Don't worry.
Caleb
01:02:08 – 01:02:09
Yeah. Right.
Ian
01:02:09 – 01:02:10
You know what's going on.
Caleb
01:02:10 – 01:02:18
Friends. And, honestly, I am so excited just to, like, sit and see DHH in the flesh yelling at my face.
Aaron
01:02:18 – 01:02:19
Be awesome.
Ian
01:02:19 – 01:02:22
The hair just go in. Oh. Why is a fan on him?
Caleb
01:02:22 – 01:02:34
Right? Because it's been a while since I'm like, yeah. I I'm really hoping to get a good, like, meet your heroes kinda, like, starstruck moment out of this. Like, you know, I wanna be I wanna be there and be like, he's right there. You know?
Ian
01:02:34 – 01:02:36
He's right there. It's not there. Yeah.
Caleb
01:02:36 – 01:02:42
Yeah. I wanna touch him. You know? His hair his hair. So, yeah, I'm excited for for Rails World.
Caleb
01:02:42 – 01:02:47
It's gonna be sweet. I almost bought impulse bought a framework 13, laptop. You know? You guys follow this?
Aaron
01:02:47 – 01:02:49
Definitely, you can impress DAT.
Caleb
01:02:49 – 01:02:50
Yeah. I Just to, like have
Ian
01:02:50 – 01:02:51
it with you.
Caleb
01:02:51 – 01:02:52
Just yeah. Well, yeah. Alright.
Ian
01:02:52 – 01:02:53
Both sides.
Caleb
01:02:53 – 01:03:01
Oh, this is my fault. That's crazy. But I'd be like, hey. Like, can you get this working for me? Like,
Aaron
01:03:02 – 01:03:02
I
Caleb
01:03:02 – 01:03:10
can't actually get it working at all. I'll literally bring a bag of parts because if they ship you the parts, you have to assemble it.
Ian
01:03:10 – 01:03:11
Oh, right.
Caleb
01:03:11 – 01:03:27
I'll literally just have the bag. I'm like, like, check out my framework. But, yeah, I was so close to impulse buying a framework 13 and installing Neovim and just living a rails, like, existence for three days. Yeah. And I would've if they were available, but they're not because DHH is probably making them very rich right now.
Caleb
01:03:27 – 01:03:29
So I think I hope he rails
Aaron
01:03:29 – 01:03:33
you with, like, a handshake or a pat on the shoulder or something.
Ian
01:03:33 – 01:03:34
That'd be awesome.
Aaron
01:03:34 – 01:03:37
Maybe you can touch the form of his robe.
Caleb
01:03:37 – 01:03:38
I don't think this is one Oh, he's
Ian
01:03:38 – 01:03:39
gotta have a robe.
Caleb
01:03:39 – 01:03:39
That's right.
Ian
01:03:39 – 01:03:40
He's gotta have a robe.
Caleb
01:03:40 – 01:03:41
He's gotta have a robe.
Aaron
01:03:41 – 01:03:41
He's gotta have a robe.
Ian
01:03:41 – 01:03:47
He's got the whole Jesus haircut going. He's gotta have a robe. If he comes out in a robe, how great will that be? God.
Aaron
01:03:47 – 01:03:48
It's amazing.
Ian
01:03:49 – 01:03:53
Man, I almost wanna go now just to see if he has a robe. Go. I think I should.
Caleb
01:03:53 – 01:03:55
It's not too late. It's too late to get a ticket. Yes.
Ian
01:03:55 – 01:03:57
I I can find it. Tickets out there.
Caleb
01:03:57 – 01:03:58
It's too late.
Ian
01:03:59 – 01:04:01
You got a ticket. I can get a ticket. Waz can give me a ticket. Waz
Caleb
01:04:01 – 01:04:07
can make anything happen. Yeah. Waz can make anything happen. Yeah. He'll conjure a
Ian
01:04:07 – 01:04:08
ticket. He'll conjure a
Caleb
01:04:08 – 01:04:12
ticket. Me. Exactly. Grateful for the Waz man. Yes.
Caleb
01:04:12 – 01:04:13
Ticket to
Ian
01:04:13 – 01:04:14
Oh, man.
Caleb
01:04:15 – 01:04:16
Thou shalt go to
Aaron
01:04:16 – 01:04:18
rails. Jesus.
Caleb
01:04:20 – 01:04:30
I mean, honestly, it feels like this is a we're so back moment. You know? This is this is where it all started. It was like Mhmm. DHH is Jesus.
Caleb
01:04:30 – 01:04:36
Adam's the priest. That's how this started. You know? Then things got a little weird for a minute.
Ian
01:04:36 – 01:04:43
They got weird. Back. Back. We're back. The universe it's like when they go back in time, they try to change time, but time won't let itself be changed.
Ian
01:04:43 – 01:04:49
So it's gotta the timeline has to reconverge onto what always would have happened. Like, that's what's happening here.
Caleb
01:04:49 – 01:04:54
This is a new story arc for me. This is Isn't it about time change? I'm like, this is pretty cool.
Ian
01:04:55 – 01:04:56
We should make a
Caleb
01:04:56 – 01:04:57
movie like this.
Ian
01:04:57 – 01:04:58
Come on.
Caleb
01:04:58 – 01:05:01
He's like, you know, the movies I'm like to be changed. Okay.
Ian
01:05:01 – 01:05:03
Yeah. Okay. It doesn't work.
Caleb
01:05:03 – 01:05:10
Doesn't allow myself to be changed. I'm like, tell me more. No. Was there. Let's get
Ian
01:05:10 – 01:05:11
back to Flux. Give me
Aaron
01:05:11 – 01:05:11
back to Flux.
Caleb
01:05:11 – 01:05:12
Give me back to
Ian
01:05:12 – 01:05:17
Flux, people. We're not selling. DHH has plenty of money. We need It's true. Caleb doesn't have plenty of money.
Ian
01:05:17 – 01:05:19
So we need to work where that's what we're fixing here. So Yeah.
Aaron
01:05:19 – 01:05:23
Erin doesn't have plenty of money. Come in.
Caleb
01:05:23 – 01:05:24
Erin?
Ian
01:05:24 – 01:05:26
Erin, you don't look the worst of us right now.
Caleb
01:05:30 – 01:05:32
No money. He has no house.
Ian
01:05:32 – 01:05:38
He's literally a GoFundMe. We're gonna put a GoFundMe up for Aaron. GoFundMe for Aaron.
Caleb
01:05:39 – 01:05:40
Oh. That's great.
Aaron
01:05:40 – 01:05:41
Alright. Hey. What I
Ian
01:05:41 – 01:05:45
know I was I was very, very scared, very scared
Aaron
01:05:45 – 01:05:46
Mhmm. About
Ian
01:05:46 – 01:05:47
your terms of service.
Caleb
01:05:47 – 01:05:50
Yeah. Yeah. Don't bring this up, Ian, publicly, but keep going.
Ian
01:05:51 – 01:05:52
I just I just wanna touch on
Aaron
01:05:52 – 01:05:53
that at least. Bring up
Caleb
01:05:53 – 01:05:55
all the things that we said are fine if nobody says anything.
Ian
01:05:55 – 01:06:00
Come on, dude. Everything that's fine. Gonna do what business
Caleb
01:06:00 – 01:06:02
dad does. I talked to a lawyer.
Ian
01:06:02 – 01:06:03
Did you really?
Caleb
01:06:03 – 01:06:04
His name is Claude.
Aaron
01:06:05 – 01:06:08
Oh, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Ian
01:06:08 – 01:06:10
I don't I don't yeah. Exactly. Claude.
Aaron
01:06:10 – 01:06:12
Right, man. What are your problems?
Ian
01:06:12 – 01:06:17
No. I'm not gonna go through it. I'm very happy to see you covered a couple things. I was a little concerned.
Caleb
01:06:17 – 01:06:17
You look at it?
Ian
01:06:17 – 01:06:20
You you and Claude. Yeah. That's what I just did. I just read it just now.
Caleb
01:06:20 – 01:06:22
How do you feel about it? Give me the review.
Ian
01:06:22 – 01:06:25
I feel I feel okay. I feel happy. A. Yeah. That's right.
Aaron
01:06:25 – 01:06:26
No way.
Ian
01:06:27 – 01:06:30
So listen. You guys aren't the first. I Okay. What is that? True.
Caleb
01:06:30 – 01:06:32
Okay. You're the craziest thing.
Ian
01:06:32 – 01:06:41
I've gone through this with a million people in Laravel where I try to buy their product, and I'm like, okay. Can I see the terms? And they're like, we don't have any terms. And I'm like, well, that's a problem for me. Right?
Ian
01:06:41 – 01:06:54
Because I have a product that you could distribute, and always the terms say you can't distribute, and then I can't buy your product. And then they fix it. Oh, it's like people like Aaron Francis forever. I've gone through his terms and many others. But, yes, you covered that.
Ian
01:06:54 – 01:07:04
So you got me. Claude and you have that part down. It's a it's a little, like, thin, but it's there. So that's good. And What what do you expect from Claude?
Ian
01:07:05 – 01:07:06
And I
Caleb
01:07:06 – 01:07:25
So this was actually last night at 9PM, I think. There was no terms. And then Claude came in, swooped in, and it all just, you know, manifested. I started just going to everybody else's stuff, copying their terms, pasting it in, and having it just rewrite it every time.
Ian
01:07:25 – 01:07:26
Flawed, like, make it work.
Caleb
01:07:26 – 01:07:34
Here's this product. Here's this product. Here's this product. And then, like, give it to me, and then I give it actually, this was actually really cool. I I started the conversation with I need blah blah blah terms.
Caleb
01:07:34 – 01:07:42
Okay. Don't write them for me. Ask me all the questions you would need to ask me to then write it, and it was awesome. It gave me, like, 10 really poignant questions.
Ian
01:07:42 – 01:07:44
Use it that way. Yeah.
Caleb
01:07:44 – 01:07:53
And then I just answered them as fully as I could. And out of the gate, the terms were pretty good. And then it was just, like, do it more like this. Do it more like that. Is there any and then random stuff.
Caleb
01:07:53 – 01:08:11
Like, take this terms into account. Does that change anything about these terms? Is there something in here that these are that this is missing or the tone is different? And then I took all that, started a new chat, and then was like, here's term you know, because it sometimes gets into a little hallucinating. You could take it too far on a path, and you're like, we're too far on this path.
Caleb
01:08:11 – 01:08:17
Yeah. So just, like, pull it out, open a new chat, and be like, here are my terms. What do you think about them? Are there any holes you could poke in it? You know?
Caleb
01:08:17 – 01:08:18
Yep. We love Claude.
Ian
01:08:19 – 01:08:21
I do like Claude. I group a lot to Claude.
Aaron
01:08:22 – 01:08:26
To which they're going to to prove to Ian that you put a lot into there.
Caleb
01:08:27 – 01:08:28
This is very tight.
Aaron
01:08:29 – 01:08:29
Asking questions.
Ian
01:08:30 – 01:08:42
I got an hour with Claude. Can you imagine every, like, IP lawyer in the world? They're just, like, people come in with these Claude built licenses, and they're just like, god. This thing's a freaking mess. This person's, like, totally open.
Ian
01:08:42 – 01:08:49
Like, people just used to come down with nothing, and they got to do the whole thing. Now they have to fix other people's, like, half done things, which is always worse.
Caleb
01:08:49 – 01:08:49
But,
Ian
01:08:50 – 01:08:57
and on the surface, I do like this. It looks good. I mean, you should still 100% contact a lawyer, but at least you did also have I'm just gonna need it.
Caleb
01:08:57 – 01:08:58
Cost me? Be straight.
Ian
01:08:58 – 01:08:59
It doesn't matter.
Caleb
01:08:59 – 01:09:01
How much tell anyone. What's gonna cost you
Ian
01:09:01 – 01:09:02
to not do it? That's the question.
Caleb
01:09:02 – 01:09:06
Nothing. Because nobody gives a crap. No. It's not true. Not paying for it.
Ian
01:09:07 – 01:09:15
If you ever get if you ever literally get 14 sales because, like, the terms are correct, then that's you've already paid for the lawyer. In
Caleb
01:09:15 – 01:09:19
the terms $50,000. Alright. Right. I see. Or $3,000.
Caleb
01:09:19 – 01:09:26
Cost cost. Yes. Because Claude made sure to cover me that my liability is only limited up to a refund of the Oh my god.
Ian
01:09:26 – 01:09:35
I really hate to tell this to you guys. I feel like you guys love living in the fantasy land of the industry. Like I do. Just because you write something in there doesn't mean it's true or legal. So, like, you know, you know,
Caleb
01:09:36 – 01:09:43
There were definitely some things in there. There were some things there that I'm like, I hope this is legal. Like, I hope this is no idea.
Aaron
01:09:44 – 01:09:46
It's a contact. Anything is anything you're right. Friday night.
Ian
01:09:46 – 01:09:47
Anything Rose.
Aaron
01:09:47 – 01:09:48
Been married. It's legit.
Caleb
01:09:49 – 01:09:53
It was saying some stuff about trademarks, and I was like, I don't have any trademarks. I hope this is okay. Yes.
Ian
01:09:53 – 01:09:53
You do.
Caleb
01:09:53 – 01:09:55
Like, I think it's saying it's like Lux?
Ian
01:09:55 – 01:09:57
Livewire. These are Those
Caleb
01:09:57 – 01:10:04
are trademarked. Oh, yeah. But they're not. So it's like it it's like Yeah. Everything fluxed, like, copyrights, including its copyrights and trademarks.
Ian
01:10:04 – 01:10:06
Everything. Yeah.
Caleb
01:10:06 – 01:10:07
Yeah. Yeah. It's cop yeah.
Ian
01:10:07 – 01:10:11
You should have a trade you don't have a trademark on Livewire? You should get a trademark on Livewire.
Caleb
01:10:11 – 01:10:13
I don't know if I can. There's a motorcycle. I'd have to
Aaron
01:10:14 – 01:10:14
No. It's
Ian
01:10:14 – 01:10:15
not a trademark. Yeah.
Caleb
01:10:15 – 01:10:16
It's a different domain. Yeah. Yeah.
Ian
01:10:16 – 01:10:17
Yeah. It's fine.
Caleb
01:10:17 – 01:10:19
It takes, like, two years and it's hard, and I don't know.
Ian
01:10:19 – 01:10:22
I just It costs, like, your right dollars.
Aaron
01:10:22 – 01:10:25
Trademark. Can't you just say hi to Claire trademark.
Ian
01:10:25 – 01:10:26
There's all these steps
Caleb
01:10:27 – 01:10:27
for bankruptcy.
Ian
01:10:27 – 01:10:32
And then you have to you want it to be a registered trademark, so there's some extra hoops you have to jump through.
Caleb
01:10:33 – 01:10:35
What's the difference between a registered and non registered trademark?
Ian
01:10:35 – 01:10:46
It's basically, like, goes through extra, like, steps with the government and extra a longer period of time where, like, people can fight it and say, no. I use the term LiveWire in another software product, and Caleb's so screwing me.
Caleb
01:10:46 – 01:10:52
Can I declare a nonregistered trademark? I'm literally saying this is not registered in any way. This is saying I
Ian
01:10:52 – 01:10:54
don't remember if you can just say
Caleb
01:10:54 – 01:10:57
I'll say a completely unregistered trademark.
Ian
01:10:58 – 01:11:03
I think you there is some element to that where just by using it, you're doing it to some degree.
Caleb
01:11:03 – 01:11:03
Right.
Ian
01:11:03 – 01:11:04
But then, like,
Caleb
01:11:04 – 01:11:05
Those are the laws I like.
Ian
01:11:05 – 01:11:07
Protect it. Right. But you have to
Caleb
01:11:07 – 01:11:10
I like this sort of just, like, this email is is like con like that kind of stuff.
Ian
01:11:10 – 01:11:17
It's like a protected man. I'm talking about all the lawyers you need are like $6,000 total, and you just spend the $6,000
Caleb
01:11:17 – 01:11:19
There's the number. I'm trying to get out of Ian.
Ian
01:11:19 – 01:11:40
Yes. So what I'm saying is like 3 or 4,000 for the terms of service, maybe less, and two or three salaries for the, like, trademark registered trademark stuff. And you just pay it, and you're happy you have it. And here's the other thing. When someone wants to buy this from you someday, when it's a huge thing and you're ready to sell, people are gonna come in and be like, oh, you don't actually have the rights to any of this stuff.
Ian
01:11:40 – 01:11:50
That's a huge bummer. Like, how do we buy this? But you don't own the the term flux is actually used by some other component library for ten years before you started using it. And that's a big problem. Blah blah blah.
Ian
01:11:50 – 01:11:51
Like, they this way, they check on that
Aaron
01:11:51 – 01:11:52
stuff, and
Ian
01:11:52 – 01:11:53
you know you're good.
Caleb
01:11:53 – 01:11:55
Dave Dave We're coming
Aaron
01:11:55 – 01:11:58
from surgery. We got to go easy on him. He's a fucking nice
Caleb
01:11:59 – 01:12:00
He's about to recompense the bladder.
Ian
01:12:02 – 01:12:07
This whole generation doesn't like lawyers. Lawyers is the best thing ever. When they're working for you
Caleb
01:12:07 – 01:12:09
Lawyers are the best thing ever. Bad.
Aaron
01:12:09 – 01:12:09
When the
Ian
01:12:09 – 01:12:11
ones that are working for you are great.
Aaron
01:12:11 – 01:12:13
Yes. Worst take.
Ian
01:12:14 – 01:12:15
No. It's a great take.
Caleb
01:12:15 – 01:12:21
I'll I'll go solve all this stuff. Dave bleep this out in the the edit so that I'll go fix this stuff and and unbleep it.
Aaron
01:12:21 – 01:12:22
It's fine.
Caleb
01:12:22 – 01:12:25
Then when people come at me, I got, you know, the failures. Just Well,
Ian
01:12:25 – 01:12:31
you got the changes. That's the interesting thing you have in here is you you left yourself the out of you can modify the terms at any time.
Caleb
01:12:31 – 01:12:37
I did. I was I was excited that Claude let me do that. Claude suggested it. I was like, that's a great suggestion.
Ian
01:12:37 – 01:12:38
You gotta have that.
Caleb
01:12:39 – 01:12:42
You could have easily just not suggested it, and I'd be completely locked in.
Aaron
01:12:42 – 01:12:42
That was the main
Ian
01:12:42 – 01:12:44
thing I was looking for.
Caleb
01:12:44 – 01:12:46
We can do that. We can just kinda change it a little bit.
Ian
01:12:46 – 01:12:54
Yeah. I was like, I don't wanna, like, look in this thing and says, you know, there's nothing about changing the terms, and you gotta so you got that. That's great.
Caleb
01:12:54 – 01:13:02
Terms. I went from zero to 2% five 15% knowledge of terms in about an hour
Aaron
01:13:02 – 01:13:03
That's what last night.
Ian
01:13:03 – 01:13:04
Exactly. I just
Caleb
01:13:04 – 01:13:11
you know? I mean, you you heard my big spiel. Like, clearly, I put a lot of work into this. Like You did. Chatted.
Caleb
01:13:11 – 01:13:11
Chat.
Aaron
01:13:11 – 01:13:13
So, like, can we go home in the morning?
Ian
01:13:15 – 01:13:16
I'm ready.
Caleb
01:13:17 – 01:13:19
Good. But
Ian
01:13:19 – 01:13:25
see here but still here's the funny thing, though. Here's the funny thing with you guys. I listen to you too.
Aaron
01:13:25 – 01:13:27
You guys. Do.
Ian
01:13:27 – 01:13:28
Oh, no. You're one
Caleb
01:13:28 – 01:13:28
of this.
Ian
01:13:29 – 01:13:33
Girl away. Are part of this, Erin. I'm gonna loop you all the way in.
Aaron
01:13:33 – 01:13:35
Podcast community.
Ian
01:13:37 – 01:13:38
I listen to you too.
Caleb
01:13:39 – 01:13:40
No. This is it.
Ian
01:13:40 – 01:13:57
Hour and a half on notes on work Okay. Talking about people taking Livewire and doing stuff Caleb doesn't like with it necessarily and people wrapping code, and we don't like when they wrap the code and all this stuff. And how do you think you've been changed man. People doing that? This is how you do it.
Ian
01:13:57 – 01:14:06
It's through terms and licenses. Terms. That's how you prevent those things that that you don't like. And this is the this is a product you can actually do it on, unlike Livewire, which you're The
Caleb
01:14:06 – 01:14:10
problem with any of that, Ian, is like Yes. What am I gonna do about it?
Ian
01:14:11 – 01:14:13
Nothing What? This is not even
Caleb
01:14:13 – 01:14:15
I wouldn't even know what to do about it.
Ian
01:14:15 – 01:14:16
Hey. No. Yes. You would.
Caleb
01:14:16 – 01:14:17
Don't do that.
Ian
01:14:17 – 01:14:19
You know? That's exactly what
Caleb
01:14:19 – 01:14:20
you that's the point of
Ian
01:14:20 – 01:14:29
love, Darren. With with Livewire and things like that, there's nothing to do about it. Right? But with this, if somebody just takes the whole thing and sets up shop tomorrow,
Aaron
01:14:29 – 01:14:29
right, and
Ian
01:14:29 – 01:14:30
says Yeah.
Aaron
01:14:30 – 01:14:30
I got it.
Ian
01:14:30 – 01:14:37
I am bucks u UI. Right? Then you wanna be able to go to their service provider and be like,
Caleb
01:14:37 – 01:14:40
take the f down. They're just gonna go with the l in the name.
Ian
01:14:40 – 01:14:41
Bucks u I. Yeah.
Caleb
01:14:41 – 01:14:42
No. No. No. Give
Aaron
01:14:42 – 01:14:42
the f.
Ian
01:14:43 – 01:14:45
No. I
Caleb
01:14:45 – 01:14:46
tried getting a mistake.
Ian
01:14:47 – 01:14:55
No. So Okay. You could go to their Internet service provider and be like, listen. They're using my trademark. They're using my copyrighted source code.
Ian
01:14:55 – 01:15:03
They're against my terms. They can't do this, and you could take their sites down and all this stuff. But if you don't have things documented and legal Yeah. Then it's harder to do that.
Caleb
01:15:03 – 01:15:05
Well, then we we do know. We have the terms.
Ian
01:15:06 – 01:15:07
We do have term tests.
Caleb
01:15:07 – 01:15:09
We have the terms. Stop. I hear you.
Ian
01:15:09 – 01:15:11
Oh oh, it's upside down. This is great.
Caleb
01:15:11 – 01:15:12
Here it goes. I know.
Ian
01:15:12 – 01:15:12
The car is
Caleb
01:15:12 – 01:15:15
upside down. Flipped. So my my
Aaron
01:15:17 – 01:15:23
my phone went into emergency overheat mode right when you were wagging your finger at me. So that was the universe. What what did
Aaron
01:15:23 – 01:15:23
I do
Aaron
01:15:23 – 01:15:25
what did I do wrong? What what did Kevin and I do?
Aaron
01:15:25 – 01:15:26
We were
Ian
01:15:26 – 01:15:29
just talking about how you guys spent an hour and a half on notes on the More than
Caleb
01:15:29 – 01:15:31
this guy with his lawyer talking.
Aaron
01:15:32 – 01:15:32
You know that.
Ian
01:15:32 – 01:15:35
More business time. Business time stuff.
Aaron
01:15:35 – 01:15:37
No. So that Nobody wants to hear it.
Ian
01:15:37 – 01:15:40
You're not just saying bad corner. Let's get off a business ad corner.
Caleb
01:15:40 – 01:16:00
This on the note of the hour and a half podcast about people stealing stuff, the really the conclusion from people like you who were like, dude, you just have to honestly charge for the thing, and then people won't steal it. It's like, if you give it away for free, they're gonna steal it because it's not stealing. If you charge for it, now we're stealing it. But also, it's part of that. Realization for me.
Caleb
01:16:00 – 01:16:01
My parents realizing
Aaron
01:16:01 – 01:16:01
it as well.
Aaron
01:16:01 – 01:16:03
If it's free, it's not
Caleb
01:16:03 – 01:16:06
stealing. That is correct. If it's free, it's not stealing.
Ian
01:16:06 – 01:16:07
That's right.
Caleb
01:16:07 – 01:16:11
So, honestly, like, it's a great feeling. It's like
Ian
01:16:11 – 01:16:15
But not right. And you just go to that the final step in that thought process
Aaron
01:16:15 – 01:16:16
Yeah.
Ian
01:16:16 – 01:16:25
Is that the reason that that's true is because what you are selling them is defined in this contract called
Aaron
01:16:25 – 01:16:25
the
Ian
01:16:25 – 01:16:34
terms of service. That is what literally we're talking about. That's the difference between Ian. The free thing and this thing is literally the only difference is the terms of service. That's the difference.
Caleb
01:16:34 – 01:16:51
That's a wild thing. I believe in this alternate universe of just, like, how far reasonable expectation just takes you on its wings, you know, of just, like, just, like, no terms. I bet it would survive fine for a long time. Everyone would just be like, well, yeah. It's like this pain thing.
Caleb
01:16:51 – 01:17:00
You can't you know, it's just there's a lot of the and this that's so this is what I wanna bring to you. Insurance. You won. Ian, loosen up a little bit.
Ian
01:17:02 – 01:17:13
I can't. I can't do it. The other so I'm gonna go the opposite of that and say that this isn't actually terms of service. It's supposed to be called a license. I don't know the
Aaron
01:17:13 – 01:17:16
difference between those with me. Don't raise your voice, please.
Ian
01:17:16 – 01:17:22
It's not terms. It's a license. You're not providing any services. You're providing a license to software.
Aaron
01:17:22 – 01:17:23
Oh, god.
Caleb
01:17:23 – 01:17:38
So Claude did kinda lead with with terms of service and license agreement. I started scouring, and it looks like everybody's kinda just playing free and loose with the terms of terms and license. It's like Yeah. Some people there says license, people says terms. And I kinda it's like, I'll split the difference.
Aaron
01:17:38 – 01:17:38
I'll put
Ian
01:17:38 – 01:17:40
I'll do both. Both. You know?
Aaron
01:17:40 – 01:17:40
Perfect.
Aaron
01:17:40 – 01:17:41
How can you do it?
Aaron
01:17:41 – 01:17:49
That's not that's not technically what splitting the difference is, but I do like I do like the final outcome. Splitting the difference is different than doing both for sure.
Caleb
01:17:51 – 01:17:57
I gotta think about this split the difference situation. It's not split the difference between the trade. Yeah.
Aaron
01:17:57 – 01:18:00
It's like each. Yeah. Difference. Not all of both.
Ian
01:18:01 – 01:18:02
Or all of both. Of both.
Caleb
01:18:02 – 01:18:04
We'll split the difference of the trade offs where, you know, we like
Ian
01:18:04 – 01:18:07
to trade that. We do we do it all. Yeah.
Aaron
01:18:07 – 01:18:07
Perfect.
Ian
01:18:07 – 01:18:10
I like it. Combine the business side corner.
Aaron
01:18:10 – 01:18:11
What else can
Aaron
01:18:11 – 01:18:11
we do?
Aaron
01:18:11 – 01:18:14
Ian's getting you gotta stop complaining about us, man.
Caleb
01:18:14 – 01:18:16
Yeah. We're sales.
Aaron
01:18:16 – 01:18:16
What are the vibes?
Caleb
01:18:17 – 01:18:18
We're slowing. Okay.
Aaron
01:18:18 – 01:18:20
Like, we hate that.
Ian
01:18:20 – 01:18:20
We don't like that.
Caleb
01:18:20 – 01:18:28
It's fine, though, because I had an internal, like, this would be sick, and we did hit. I did update you guys. Right? Yeah. I think we Yes.
Ian
01:18:28 – 01:18:30
But I don't think we got we don't know the sick if you hit it number. I
Caleb
01:18:30 – 01:18:35
don't know. That's the one. The last number is the I hit the number that's, like, sick.
Aaron
01:18:35 – 01:18:36
You know?
Caleb
01:18:36 – 01:18:36
We got
Aaron
01:18:36 – 01:18:38
to internal sick mode. That's great.
Caleb
01:18:38 – 01:18:40
Internal sick mode.
Aaron
01:18:40 – 01:18:43
That's awesome. That's a day one launch right there.
Caleb
01:18:43 – 01:18:48
Yeah. So we're we're actually happy about that because that's an hour one launch. We're an hour and ten minutes.
Ian
01:18:49 – 01:18:49
That's true.
Caleb
01:18:49 – 01:18:59
That's true. In and, you know, Flare isn't it's still yeah. You know? The errors, unless maybe Flare needs to be refreshed, and now I'm gonna see all the errors.
Ian
01:18:59 – 01:19:00
I mean, people are buying
Caleb
01:19:00 – 01:19:01
It's not so bad.
Aaron
01:19:02 – 01:19:02
Yeah. Yeah. Me
Aaron
01:19:02 – 01:19:04
and the bank. Yeah. Who cares?
Aaron
01:19:04 – 01:19:04
Yeah.
Ian
01:19:04 – 01:19:11
You're you're gonna be out there talking about this forever. Right? So it's like, whatever. If they don't buy today or something went wrong, they'll buy tomorrow.
Aaron
01:19:11 – 01:19:12
They'll be alright.
Caleb
01:19:12 – 01:19:19
Let's see. This is an important metric. How many emails? How many support emails do I have to get through? Mhmm.
Caleb
01:19:19 – 01:19:21
Okay. 46.
Ian
01:19:21 – 01:19:22
Okay. But a lot of
Caleb
01:19:22 – 01:19:26
And this is over. So it it was 200 season. It was 200 last night.
Aaron
01:19:26 – 01:19:28
And You need a Linda, man. That sucks.
Caleb
01:19:28 – 01:19:39
I already got a Linda. His name is Josh Hanley and Oh, okay. Ben Sherrod, who both are in different time zones. And I was like, dudes, I gotta go to bed, and I have 200 emails. Here's access
Aaron
01:19:39 – 01:19:40
to my
Caleb
01:19:40 – 01:19:40
help spot. Here's some
Aaron
01:19:40 – 01:19:41
saved replies. Please help
Caleb
01:19:41 – 01:19:44
me. Alright. Here's the password. Here's the here's the message
Aaron
01:19:44 – 01:19:45
to somebody.
Aaron
01:19:45 – 01:19:47
Send you the password. Just use the one.
Caleb
01:19:48 – 01:19:50
Yeah. Just alright. Yeah. I don't wanna type it out.
Aaron
01:19:50 – 01:19:51
That's funny.
Caleb
01:19:51 – 01:19:52
Just use the one.
Aaron
01:19:52 – 01:19:52
Just use
Caleb
01:19:52 – 01:19:59
the one password. Use the one password. You just gotta use one password. Oh. My sales
Ian
01:19:59 – 01:19:59
pitch for
Caleb
01:19:59 – 01:20:02
one password. Oh, good. It's No more than one.
Ian
01:20:02 – 01:20:12
One yeah. New product named one password. It only lets you have one password. Yeah. I hope everybody would die from the beginning.
Aaron
01:20:12 – 01:20:12
Oh, it's
Aaron
01:20:12 – 01:20:14
a good bet. That's a good bet.
Caleb
01:20:14 – 01:20:15
Handle it.
Ian
01:20:15 – 01:20:16
I love a bet. We love a bet. We love a bet.
Aaron
01:20:18 – 01:20:19
You gotta have a bit.
Aaron
01:20:19 – 01:20:20
Oh. Oh, man.
Caleb
01:20:20 – 01:20:21
And it's a bit
Ian
01:20:22 – 01:20:31
I love there's there's, like, 5,000 people watching this just on Twitter, and we're just talking about one password and license terms. And, like, we're not selling anything. Nobody even knows what we're they're watching.
Caleb
01:20:31 – 01:20:35
This is anti marketing, Ian. This is anti marketing. Yeah. It's
Aaron
01:20:35 – 01:20:36
all strategy.
Ian
01:20:36 – 01:20:37
It's all strategy.
Aaron
01:20:37 – 01:20:42
Oh, that's good stuff. Alright. So you got a 40 support emails.
Aaron
01:20:42 – 01:20:43
A 40
Caleb
01:20:43 – 01:20:48
support emails, which probably way more than that, but I think Ben and Josh are both being real dudes about this and are in there.
Ian
01:20:48 – 01:20:49
That's awesome.
Caleb
01:20:49 – 01:20:55
You know, just going in. Just sweet. So, yeah, we appreciate that, Ben and Josh. That's that's how we do things. You know?
Caleb
01:20:55 – 01:21:03
We're real, last night situation kind of watchers. You know? You get yourself into a mess. You get yourself out of the mess. That's what you
Ian
01:21:03 – 01:21:05
But you got people on it. That's the business thing
Aaron
01:21:05 – 01:21:05
we are.
Caleb
01:21:05 – 01:21:06
Right? That's,
Ian
01:21:06 – 01:21:07
like, did the
Caleb
01:21:07 – 01:21:07
business thing.
Ian
01:21:08 – 01:21:17
Yep. Yes. And if you charge for things, then you can have people on it, which is the nice part about that. Right? Where it's hard to have people on it when it's if it was just totally Oh,
Caleb
01:21:17 – 01:21:19
I see what you're saying. Having people on it. Yes. It's all paid.
Ian
01:21:19 – 01:21:21
You can pay people on it.
Caleb
01:21:21 – 01:21:33
Invoices. Right. I don't feel guilty about being, like, you know, and it's very much I've yeah. It's actually during their workday, which is amazing. It's like, it's midnight, and I'm calling in a favor, and it's, like, the middle of the day for
Aaron
01:21:33 – 01:21:34
those guys.
Caleb
01:21:34 – 01:21:34
You know,
Ian
01:21:34 – 01:21:36
it's like, yeah. It's just like, oh, yeah.
Caleb
01:21:36 – 01:21:39
Sure. Whatever. Make this part of my workday. I'm a freelancer. I can do that.
Aaron
01:21:39 – 01:21:41
What the money is for. That's right.
Caleb
01:21:41 – 01:21:43
That's what the money is for. Yep.
Ian
01:21:43 – 01:21:48
That's what we're buying. So that's awesome. That's pretty much that's what
Aaron
01:21:48 – 01:21:50
what else you got? You got a bunch of you got a bunch of
Aaron
01:21:50 – 01:21:51
you got a bunch of you got a bunch of you got a bunch of you got a bunch of you got a bunch
Aaron
01:21:51 – 01:21:53
of you got any queues on Twitter? I can't look at Twitter because
Aaron
01:21:53 – 01:21:53
I got the
Aaron
01:21:53 – 01:21:54
whole phone thing going on.
Aaron
01:21:54 – 01:21:55
So So Twitter
Aaron
01:21:55 – 01:21:57
I'm not even saying anything funny?
Caleb
01:21:58 – 01:22:13
Alright. So Twitter is broken for me. Basically, nobody likes my tweets ever, which is fine. But, like, I get so much more, like, traction and attention. Aaron has Twitter loves Aaron, and Aaron does a good job at Twitter.
Caleb
01:22:13 – 01:22:18
Twitter does not love Caleb. Guess how many likes I have on the big tweet?
Aaron
01:22:18 – 01:22:20
The big tweet. Alright.
Caleb
01:22:21 – 01:22:21
Guess.
Ian
01:22:22 – 01:22:23
I'm gonna go 50.
Aaron
01:22:24 – 01:22:26
I'm gonna go three three hundred and fifty.
Caleb
01:22:27 – 01:22:37
Right. So 350 would even still be, like, I've gotten more likes on that with random just Right. You know? Yeah. A 17.
Aaron
01:22:38 – 01:22:41
No. No. On the big screen. Going over.
Ian
01:22:41 – 01:22:42
Closest without going over.
Caleb
01:22:42 – 01:22:52
So, you'll I actually never know what views so retweets is 58, which is, like, a ton of retweets. Yeah. And Twitter is just, like, no. No. No.
Caleb
01:22:52 – 01:22:55
I don't wanna blame this all on Twitter, but this this thing worked before.
Aaron
01:22:55 – 01:22:56
It did work well.
Caleb
01:22:56 – 01:23:00
Wrote this tweet and put it out there It did work before. Four years ago.
Aaron
01:23:00 – 01:23:01
Yep.
Caleb
01:23:01 – 01:23:03
This thing would have a thousand likes. Like, no problem.
Aaron
01:23:03 – 01:23:05
How many views does it have?
Caleb
01:23:05 – 01:23:09
Seven and a half thousand. What? What's that? High or low?
Aaron
01:23:09 – 01:23:09
I actually
Caleb
01:23:09 – 01:23:16
don't Criminal. Low. Low. So they're burying it Yeah. Which is nuts, but that's how Twitter works for me, dude.
Aaron
01:23:16 – 01:23:16
That's why
Ian
01:23:16 – 01:23:17
we gotta get out.
Caleb
01:23:17 – 01:23:18
Nobody out.
Aaron
01:23:18 – 01:23:19
We gotta get out.
Caleb
01:23:20 – 01:23:31
They hate me. It's so weird. And then, like, other folks I'm not gonna mention any names, but other folks just, like, tweet some I can't say his name. He's right here. He's and he just, like, tweet something.
Caleb
01:23:32 – 01:23:41
They tweet something, and it's just, like, boom. And good for you, Aaron. But I'm telling you, man, if I tweeted the same thing like, the algorithm is warm. Right? Like, it knows.
Caleb
01:23:41 – 01:23:41
It's like I
Aaron
01:23:41 – 01:23:42
think it knows.
Caleb
01:23:42 – 01:23:46
It knows because I swear we could do, like, an AB test or something.
Aaron
01:23:46 – 01:23:47
Mhmm.
Caleb
01:23:47 – 01:23:55
And and you're, like, hot. Twitter's like, this guy, we're gonna show to everybody. And he's like, this guy, silence him. You know? It's weird.
Caleb
01:23:55 – 01:23:56
You do
Aaron
01:23:56 – 01:23:56
a better
Ian
01:23:56 – 01:23:57
job. Like,
Caleb
01:23:57 – 01:23:58
you engage. You do.
Ian
01:23:58 – 01:23:59
Does what he wants. Yeah.
Caleb
01:23:59 – 01:24:00
That from you at all.
Ian
01:24:00 – 01:24:01
But he knows that that's video
Caleb
01:24:01 – 01:24:01
Thank you.
Ian
01:24:02 – 01:24:03
Which is what they want. They want
Caleb
01:24:03 – 01:24:04
the game. Even the video. I
Aaron
01:24:04 – 01:24:06
did the video. Has a video.
Ian
01:24:06 – 01:24:08
They talked to the video.
Caleb
01:24:08 – 01:24:10
The intention was to have a video.
Ian
01:24:10 – 01:24:13
Moses, into Twitter. Like, all the people.
Aaron
01:24:13 – 01:24:13
I asked
Ian
01:24:13 – 01:24:14
the priest
Caleb
01:24:14 – 01:24:17
right before coming on here, and he's like, take the picture. Do the video.
Aaron
01:24:17 – 01:24:18
Yep. You know?
Caleb
01:24:18 – 01:24:21
And I'm like, you gotta do the video. I have a big locked and loaded trouble.
Aaron
01:24:21 – 01:24:33
To go. So here here's one thing I will say. They do seemingly, they do seem to test engagement slash reach for the first thirty minutes or an hour, and so it's possible it's a slow start.
Caleb
01:24:33 – 01:24:33
Put it on
Aaron
01:24:33 – 01:24:36
the track. Yeah. So that's possible. Alright.
Caleb
01:24:36 – 01:24:38
Who knows? But this is my life,
Ian
01:24:38 – 01:24:40
and that's how it goes. Thing.
Caleb
01:24:40 – 01:24:57
And that's why and if you guys know, like, you engagement off of Twitter, and you know the number and everything, it's, like, it's all great, and I'm so happy. So now I'm just conditioned to looking at Twitter and just being, like, it's all crap all the time. Never have high hopes. It's always gonna flop. Nothing ever works on Twitter for me.
Aaron
01:24:57 – 01:25:01
That's a that's a good one. I feel like a life just generally. It's all crap
Caleb
01:25:01 – 01:25:06
all the time. It's never gonna work. This is after dark Aaron's. Yeah. This is this is Aaron on the car mantra.
Caleb
01:25:07 – 01:25:08
To it. The car is
Ian
01:25:08 – 01:25:09
a whole different person.
Caleb
01:25:10 – 01:25:11
All crap.
Aaron
01:25:11 – 01:25:12
It's all crap.
Caleb
01:25:13 – 01:25:16
It's literally all crap. You can't You could literally
Aaron
01:25:16 – 01:25:17
can't use anything.
Ian
01:25:17 – 01:25:20
List. You know? It's the email list. It's like, that's the thing now.
Caleb
01:25:20 – 01:25:22
I know. You gotta just go for these other channels.
Aaron
01:25:22 – 01:25:23
Which I
Ian
01:25:23 – 01:25:25
don't even do that. I'm trying to go for that more.
Caleb
01:25:25 – 01:25:29
Aaron, what's the secret? Like, just do what Aaron does. You know?
Aaron
01:25:29 – 01:25:31
What is the secret? I don't know.
Ian
01:25:31 – 01:25:32
Easier said than done.
Aaron
01:25:32 – 01:25:34
I tweet a lot. I respond to
Caleb
01:25:35 – 01:25:40
people helps a lot? I don't like to reply to anybody outside of my notifications. You know? Yeah. I
Aaron
01:25:40 – 01:25:58
think, I no. I guess I respond to a lot of tweets on main as well, but I respond mostly to people that respond to me. Yeah. I don't know. I also try not to like, on a launch day, I would try not to tweet anything except the launch tweet.
Caleb
01:25:59 – 01:26:06
Which I flubbed by, like, tweeting and deleting 10 tweets. It's like streaming, not streaming, trading, streaming, not streaming. Sorry. Not sorry.
Aaron
01:26:06 – 01:26:08
Yeah. Maybe. I don't know.
Ian
01:26:08 – 01:26:08
Could be.
Caleb
01:26:09 – 01:26:10
Yeah. I
Ian
01:26:10 – 01:26:15
mean, but it is a little different audience too, I think. Yeah.
Caleb
01:26:16 – 01:26:34
I think, like, I think something to try. What what I should do is just run experiments, and one of them should be replying to folks on main. Just, like, naturally, all my friends and stuff, they're doing stuff. Just be more interactive if if I wanna, like, see if that juices up the Twitter situation. Mhmm.
Caleb
01:26:34 – 01:26:47
Because, like, of course, there's a part of it that could just be content and audience mismatched. It's like I had the match for so long. Yeah. Like, I have a hard time believing that those people there's just not a match anymore. You know?
Ian
01:26:47 – 01:26:47
I get it
Caleb
01:26:47 – 01:26:48
that, like, there's
Ian
01:26:49 – 01:26:52
like, a thirty six minute video being bad for you. Like, they want you to
Aaron
01:26:52 – 01:26:52
Yeah.
Ian
01:26:52 – 01:26:58
Like, they want the Aaron video. Right? Like, it's two minutes. It's highly produced. People watch the whole thing to the end.
Ian
01:26:58 – 01:27:02
Yeah. Whereas like this, probably people watch and then instantly it plummets off and they're like, okay, I got the bottom
Caleb
01:27:02 – 01:27:04
scrolling video engagement and stuff.
Ian
01:27:04 – 01:27:09
Oh, for sure. Right. And so then they're like, oh, it's dropping off after. A minute or two two minutes or whatever.
Caleb
01:27:09 – 01:27:10
That is interesting. Right?
Ian
01:27:10 – 01:27:13
Let's bury this thing because people aren't watching it. You know? Yeah. I
Caleb
01:27:13 – 01:27:13
could see
Ian
01:27:13 – 01:27:20
that being I know I'm not Interesting. Mister beast thing that YouTube is, like, super big on that. Like Right. For sure. People don't
Caleb
01:27:20 – 01:27:21
watch till the end
Ian
01:27:21 – 01:27:23
It's all retesting. Dead. Right? Yeah. So yeah.
Ian
01:27:23 – 01:27:24
So it could be I
Caleb
01:27:24 – 01:27:31
just figured Elon fired that guy again and was like there's, like, they just, you know, they don't have that, like, built in there. But
Ian
01:27:32 – 01:27:34
I hired try hard studios to make you short.
Aaron
01:27:34 – 01:27:35
Oh, you should do that for the flex lot.
Caleb
01:27:35 – 01:27:36
Little You should yeah.
Aaron
01:27:36 – 01:27:39
You should hire us to make a video for the flex line.
Ian
01:27:39 – 01:27:41
You said flex. You just said flex again.
Caleb
01:27:41 – 01:27:41
No shit.
Aaron
01:27:41 – 01:27:42
I said flex.
Caleb
01:27:42 – 01:27:43
Get a
Aaron
01:27:43 – 01:27:44
fuck. I said flex.
Ian
01:27:44 – 01:27:46
No. You're not.
Aaron
01:27:46 – 01:27:48
Go to the tape. I said flex.
Caleb
01:27:48 – 01:27:49
I would have taping to do.
Aaron
01:27:50 – 01:27:50
This is
Ian
01:27:50 – 01:27:55
what happens when you never say your product names in real life. You know? It's like, oh, yeah. It could be confusing really.
Aaron
01:27:55 – 01:27:56
I I
Caleb
01:27:56 – 01:28:04
say flex. And, yeah, I do. I've typed Flux also in Tailwind, so that has happened. You know? Flux calm.
Ian
01:28:04 – 01:28:06
Just so natural. Right? Yeah.
Caleb
01:28:06 – 01:28:12
Yep. Yeah. So we gotta fix Twitter. Maybe we gotta fix Twitter. We gotta try some replying.
Caleb
01:28:12 – 01:28:21
I gotta I should toy with, high retention short videos. That's hard to do, obviously. That's that's the try hard part. That's like, okay. I really wanna try hard
Ian
01:28:21 – 01:28:21
to do
Caleb
01:28:21 – 01:28:22
right now?
Ian
01:28:22 – 01:28:23
I don't know.
Caleb
01:28:23 – 01:28:27
So maybe I just take the l. I don't know.
Aaron
01:28:27 – 01:28:31
Can I just Can we can it hit us with some ConvertKit open stats? What are we looking at?
Caleb
01:28:31 – 01:28:35
Oh, not good. Okay. Well, this
Aaron
01:28:35 – 01:28:36
is what
Aaron
01:28:36 – 01:28:37
I did. Over there.
Caleb
01:28:37 – 01:28:44
Let me let me give you the the deeps. This is what I did. Well, so I'll tell you. I mean, I emailed the preorder folks, and that has a 70% open rate. So That's true.
Aaron
01:28:44 – 01:28:45
What are you talking about? That's amazing.
Caleb
01:28:45 – 01:28:48
The pre I mean, but it's a preorder folks it's gonna be pre order
Aaron
01:28:48 – 01:28:49
oh the people who already
Caleb
01:28:49 – 01:28:50
ordered 700 people
Aaron
01:28:50 – 01:28:52
pre order it's all in the name there
Caleb
01:28:52 – 01:29:19
this is the convertkit business is and I usually do this so this one the actual launch email goes to, like, the broader audience. I try not to send it to, like, people who are completely not in the the vertical. Like, if you if you only subscribe to, like, Alpine stuff and not live where stuff, you're not gonna get this email. If you only subscribe to Versus code stuff, you're you're not gonna get this email. If you subscribe to my blog however many years ago, like, you're gonna get this email.
Caleb
01:29:19 – 01:29:44
So this number is gonna sound high, but it's loaded with old subs and just, like, tons of disinterest because from in my mind, it's like, well, for this one, we'll just do a big scattershot, and then the open rates will be way lower. So I just did a deep dive on my Alpine launch, and this is what it was then. It was like good open rates, good open rates, and the launch email's super low because I blew it up to the full size. So okay. Stats.
Caleb
01:29:45 – 01:29:57
Flux UI is now live. Email went out to 62 and a half thousand people, and it has a 20% open rate, which will probably go up to 30 when all is settled. And then plug in this
Aaron
01:29:58 – 01:29:59
18,000 people?
Aaron
01:29:59 – 01:30:00
That's a lot.
Caleb
01:30:00 – 01:30:07
Yeah. Yeah. It is. 5% click rate, but there's not, like it's not the most clicky email. 3,100 clicks.
Caleb
01:30:07 – 01:30:10
We can go to use Fathom. We should have been tracking that stuff for fun.
Ian
01:30:10 – 01:30:16
It is a it is a Monday morning too. Are you gonna resend to the people who didn't open, like, later? It seems like that could be a good idea.
Caleb
01:30:16 – 01:30:19
Know how to do that. To have an email. Resend a phone number.
Aaron
01:30:20 – 01:30:21
I think they have a button.
Ian
01:30:21 – 01:30:22
Yeah. You can just
Caleb
01:30:22 – 01:30:25
tell me. Do that. I definitely would send I'll make a follow-up.
Aaron
01:30:25 – 01:30:25
We'll do,
Caleb
01:30:25 – 01:30:30
like, get a bunch of testimonials, you know, follow-up the Adam the Adam Wadden way. Yeah.
Aaron
01:30:30 – 01:30:30
Get a
Caleb
01:30:30 – 01:30:53
bunch of testimonials, you know, social proof, add some more value, whatever. Remind people in a few days, maybe Wednesday, do another push, bump it up from that with people who haven't purchased yet. Then, yeah, maybe maybe more of that, maybe not, and then the the final, you know, the final, hey. It's all ending. But Fathom is so 229 real time, which is pretty good.
Aaron
01:30:53 – 01:30:55
That's pretty good. It's a lot of people at once.
Aaron
01:30:55 – 01:30:55
We're Yeah.
Aaron
01:30:55 – 01:30:57
Two hours in. You know?
Caleb
01:30:57 – 01:31:13
It's, and so, you know, who knows how accurate that number is because a lot of people have, like, ad blocky type stuff. So So for me, it's like a relative number. Like, I know that, like, Livewire docs are usually around, like, fifty, sixty people on any given day, real time. And Alpine That's a lot of people.
Aaron
01:31:13 – 01:31:14
Is
Caleb
01:31:14 – 01:31:30
kinda the same. So, like, Alpine right now is 32. Livewire is 50, and old Livewire is 22, and, let's see. And, and sushi.dev is zero. So Oh, yeah.
Caleb
01:31:30 – 01:31:38
That's not doing as well right now. But for GWI, it's 234 and, yeah, which is great. That's great.
Ian
01:31:38 – 01:31:39
Yeah. And the That's amazing.
Aaron
01:31:39 – 01:31:40
It's not
Ian
01:31:40 – 01:31:47
gonna sustain that. It'll be lower than Livewire docs at some point. I'm sure. Right? But you know, like, obviously, to for still be going that strong now as
Caleb
01:31:47 – 01:32:06
soon as we get down. You know, it probably will be, but I think that Flux will be a stickier app than even the Livewire docs because especially if I do what I plan to do, which is, like, adding new stuff, adding templates, making it a Lego bin of, like, you're just going there all the time to grab a chunk of HTML to plop in. You know? Like Right.
Aaron
01:32:06 – 01:32:06
I
Caleb
01:32:06 – 01:32:15
think it'll just I only go to the Laravel docs now when it's either a foreign concept to me that I barely ever touched or it's, like, validation or something. I don't know. You know?
Aaron
01:32:15 – 01:32:16
Right. Yeah.
Caleb
01:32:16 – 01:32:31
Yeah. It's, like, once you kind of absorb the tool, I don't I I very rarely go to the Livewire docs. Like, I needed to go to it once for Wire Navigate or something. So there is some kinda, like, taper off, and it's the same with Flux. But with Flux, I'm gonna go back for, like, copy and pastable stuff that I'm obviously not gonna memorize.
Caleb
01:32:31 – 01:32:31
You know?
Ian
01:32:31 – 01:32:32
Right.
Caleb
01:32:32 – 01:32:33
So I don't know.
Aaron
01:32:33 – 01:32:38
Where where did you get where did you get 62,000 email addresses? That's a lot.
Caleb
01:32:39 – 01:32:41
You know, Aaron, I've been at this a minute.
Aaron
01:32:41 – 01:32:43
Okay. It's a dark red
Aaron
01:32:43 – 01:32:45
bones. Yeah. I
Ian
01:32:45 – 01:32:46
Dark web purchase.
Caleb
01:32:46 – 01:33:00
It's really, I mean, I guess I think it's two things. It's, it's having valuable web properties, like, that are if I say but you know what I mean? It's like having having the distribution of good doc sites is, like
Aaron
01:33:00 – 01:33:01
Like sushi.dev.
Caleb
01:33:01 – 01:33:02
Yeah. Like sushi.dev.
Aaron
01:33:02 – 01:33:03
Yeah.
Caleb
01:33:03 – 01:33:11
Exactly. So something like sushi.dev is just ops site. One old huge. You know? But, honestly, the most valuable thing I have, usually, I say it's email list.
Caleb
01:33:11 – 01:33:34
But in this conversation, I'm gonna say it's, the doc sites because you just have all this distribution built in. You can throw up any ad on there. You can put on any give me your email here. But, but, yeah, I guess it's just, like, I don't know, probably six years, seven years of building lists, five years of building list aggressively. But a lot of it is, like, you signed up for Livewire screencast, and you are opted into this.
Caleb
01:33:35 – 01:33:56
So that's, like, if you if it was pure all, like, only users had to put in their email address to get updates, it wouldn't be that high for sure. And that's just, like, a tactic that I've chosen is just this very, like, please unsubscribe. You do not have to hear anything about this. But, generally, it's like an indie business, so I think there's a lot more, like, goodwill than if it's just, like, a a normal, like, suit and tie business that's sending you crap all the time. It's
Aaron
01:33:56 – 01:33:56
just like, you get
Caleb
01:33:56 – 01:34:08
an email from me. I wrote it that morning, and I do it every three months. You know? Yeah. And that's sort of the that's sort of my strategy, yeah, for for the emails.
Caleb
01:34:08 – 01:34:14
But I need to cull that list for sure because I think I'm paying for tons of people who never open anything. You know? Right.
Ian
01:34:14 – 01:34:14
Yeah. Like, it
Caleb
01:34:14 – 01:34:18
my the ConvertKit costs are, like, 700 a month or something now. It's just like,
Aaron
01:34:18 – 01:34:20
well Oh.
Caleb
01:34:21 – 01:34:22
So, yeah,
Aaron
01:34:22 – 01:34:22
I've gotta
Caleb
01:34:22 – 01:34:23
figure that out.
Ian
01:34:23 – 01:34:28
You don't wanna pay you don't wanna pay a lawyer one time to do your trademarks. Look at this guy.
Aaron
01:34:28 – 01:34:32
He just couldn't help himself. He just had to go back to business dad's corner.
Caleb
01:34:32 – 01:34:33
He just had to do it.
Ian
01:34:33 – 01:34:37
Great. It's just it's just to tee him up, I gotta hit him out. You know?
Caleb
01:34:37 – 01:34:51
This is, like, I think a good business lesson for business dads. So listen up here, Ian. Okay? No. The like, a a product like ConvertKit, you're always thinking, oh, well, it's the thing that makes me money.
Caleb
01:34:51 – 01:35:03
So, like, I'm always comparing my mind, like, 700 a month versus all the money I make on these launches, and it's, like, yeah. Great. Sure. But, like, help scout, I go, why are you paying so much for this? Like Of course.
Ian
01:35:03 – 01:35:06
I know this. Stupid. You know what I mean? Center stuff.
Caleb
01:35:06 – 01:35:13
Yeah. So, anyway, there I I feel like ConvertKit. It's it's a genius founder mixed with a genius product, like
Aaron
01:35:13 – 01:35:13
Right.
Caleb
01:35:13 – 01:35:15
Fit, and it's a it's just the best. Like
Ian
01:35:16 – 01:35:18
It's a money. I love the the things tied
Aaron
01:35:18 – 01:35:18
to the money
Ian
01:35:18 – 01:35:19
are the best.
Aaron
01:35:19 – 01:35:23
Caleb, you should go to Boise and do the podcast. That'd be great exposure.
Ian
01:35:23 – 01:35:24
Oh, that's a good idea.
Caleb
01:35:24 – 01:35:28
To do that, Aaron. I absolutely should see if see if he'll have me.
Aaron
01:35:28 – 01:35:35
You should do that. I just DM'd him and said, can I do that? And he said, you can do that, and that was it. That was it.
Caleb
01:35:35 – 01:35:36
I think
Ian
01:35:36 – 01:35:40
it's gonna make I don't think it's gonna make you any money, but it still would be cool. And it's just crazy.
Caleb
01:35:40 – 01:35:50
It would be great. It would be good exposure, and it would be somebody to me Legend. Like, you know, Adam is my immediate kind of, like, puppet master, priest, or whatever you wanna call him.
Aaron
01:35:50 – 01:35:51
Superior officer.
Caleb
01:35:52 – 01:35:57
If Guru. He had it at least early on, like, Nathan would have been his. So it's kinda like a grandpa.
Aaron
01:35:57 – 01:35:59
Your grand guru. Yeah.
Caleb
01:35:59 – 01:36:00
Yeah. Like, just go in there.
Aaron
01:36:00 – 01:36:05
Producer Steve lives in Quincy. And if if he's not in the hospital, you could hang out with producer Steve too.
Ian
01:36:05 – 01:36:06
That would be cool.
Aaron
01:36:06 – 01:36:06
Oh, god.
Aaron
01:36:06 – 01:36:08
If he's not in the hospital,
Caleb
01:36:08 – 01:36:10
we could hang out and then go in the
Aaron
01:36:10 – 01:36:12
hospital doing something You guys
Aaron
01:36:12 – 01:36:12
could go
Ian
01:36:12 – 01:36:14
mountain biking together. Yeah. Is he back in the hospital?
Aaron
01:36:15 – 01:36:16
No. Not that. Not
Caleb
01:36:16 – 01:36:16
that time.
Aaron
01:36:16 – 01:36:18
Just when I was up there.
Caleb
01:36:18 – 01:36:21
He didn't send it recently. When he if he sends
Aaron
01:36:21 – 01:36:21
it Yeah.
Caleb
01:36:21 – 01:36:22
He yeah. You guys
Aaron
01:36:22 – 01:36:28
should go mountain biking and just not hurt yourselves because I need him. And also, I like you, but I need him.
Ian
01:36:28 – 01:36:28
Sure. You
Caleb
01:36:28 – 01:36:32
need him. He's more important. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.
Caleb
01:36:32 – 01:36:43
Yeah. That would be fun. Producer Steve and I, brief aside, we have, a ton in common of, like, ten years ago. Like, I was I thought video was my thing. I had, like, a video business.
Caleb
01:36:43 – 01:36:54
It was the whole thing, all the gear, and I followed all the people and everything. So he knows all those people. Like, early he's followed all the same people, so it's just really cool. We just, like, forgot about that whole part of my life. He was like, oh, did you watch Grayscale Gorilla?
Caleb
01:36:54 – 01:37:00
Oh, yeah. Grayscale Gorilla. He's still doing stuff. Oh, did you watch video go by? So, yes, Steve and I, we could hang.
Caleb
01:37:00 – 01:37:15
We could bike. We could end up in the hospital. The fat the real time fathom is holding strong. Two fifty one. Two 50 one, I already know to be there's there's metrics I know to be excited about and ones I know to not be excited about.
Caleb
01:37:15 – 01:37:23
Open rates, not excited anymore. Twitter, totally not excited. Stripe, excited. Fathom, excited. So
Ian
01:37:24 – 01:37:34
Dan, thanks, Dan. In the chat says, Taylor gave, gave the stream the retweet. So it looks like got the bump in numbers. So welcome everybody. New, new viewers.
Caleb
01:37:35 – 01:37:36
Yeah. Talking about flux.
Aaron
01:37:36 – 01:37:38
Yeah. Tell them what we're supposed to
Caleb
01:37:38 – 01:37:38
be doing.
Ian
01:37:38 – 01:37:39
PHP component library.
Aaron
01:37:41 – 01:37:42
That's
Ian
01:37:42 – 01:37:43
gonna make your dev life so much easier.
Caleb
01:37:44 – 01:37:56
Yeah. So may maybe, like, I don't know. Is there anything more interesting to say that I haven't said already? Is there something that you got that we can mine here, like, an obscure component or something that's cool or a a tidbit, or maybe I can tell you something I think
Ian
01:37:56 – 01:38:05
is cool. Yeah. I had one, a question for you about this actually. It's perfect for this. So one thing, so I knew, you know, you were doing this and I was excited about it and I figured components.
Ian
01:38:05 – 01:38:27
I got it. But the, the one component that I'm super excited about that I was not at all expecting. Yeah. Was that you did all the layouts and like that stuff is always such a huge pain in the ass and it's not usually in a component library or at least not in the way you seem to have built it with fully realized. And it just works as opposed to like, yes, there's a hamburger menu and you can wire it up with this other thing.
Ian
01:38:27 – 01:38:49
And like, it's still gonna take you all day to actually make it work the way you want it to work. Yes. Across all the responsive states. But I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like it's just like, no, you use these blade tags and boom, you have a fully awesome navigation and sidebar and all the unit folders, which nobody ever does full even tail when you hide in the proper folders or at least they didn't. So yeah, we got it.
Ian
01:38:49 – 01:38:49
It's
Caleb
01:38:49 – 01:38:50
got folders.
Ian
01:38:51 – 01:38:58
It's got folders. Look at this. Nobody ever designs things for real apps. And it so pisses me off that it's like, no. In a real app
Caleb
01:38:58 – 01:38:58
I fall
Ian
01:38:58 – 01:39:06
for folders. Three items on the left mark. That doesn't work. Nobody builds apps like that. Like, you fall for folders.
Ian
01:39:06 – 01:39:07
You're my man. You get it.
Caleb
01:39:07 – 01:39:20
So, Ian, thank you, Ian, for the alley oop. I really appreciate that. Let me just briefly let me get a hoo I'm gonna give a few things, and you get you've both built layouts. Yes? You've built layouts for apps.
Aaron
01:39:20 – 01:39:22
You know the struggles.
Caleb
01:39:22 – 01:39:28
You've done plenty of times. So I'm gonna give you a challenge, and then I'd like to get a hoo hoo. I'm not I'm not gonna give you that.
Aaron
01:39:28 – 01:39:30
Maybe I'll give you a woo hoo.
Caleb
01:39:31 – 01:39:31
Give me
Ian
01:39:31 – 01:39:34
a I don't even know what a hoo hoo is, but I'm ready. Let's do it.
Caleb
01:39:34 – 01:39:51
It sounds like something my son would call something Right. That he saw, and Yeah. I wanna hoo Yeah. Oh, really quick. On the hoo talk, River the other day said, pee out mouth when I spit, which I thought was hilarious.
Aaron
01:39:51 – 01:39:51
I've heard I
Ian
01:39:51 – 01:39:52
heard that.
Caleb
01:39:52 – 01:39:53
So that was very funny.
Aaron
01:39:53 – 01:39:53
And he
Caleb
01:39:53 – 01:39:56
said something else that was freaking hilarious, and I meant to write it down. I forgot.
Ian
01:39:56 – 01:39:59
That that I love that age where they say the funny stuff. That's hilarious.
Aaron
01:39:59 – 01:39:59
But make
Ian
01:39:59 – 01:40:08
sure you get videos of it because, we have so much fun with like, obviously, I only got, like, four percent of them on video. Right? But those 4% are just so great. We love those videos.
Caleb
01:40:08 – 01:40:18
Yeah. I I gotta keep a list. I did I used to do this with, like, Hannah when, like, she would say, like, funny stuff. I did this with my mom when she would mess up idioms. I called him Carol.
Caleb
01:40:18 – 01:40:27
Oh, that's nice. Carol. Yeah. And so she had, like, it's a doggy it's a doggy doggy world, you know, stuff like that. I made this big list and ended her fiftieth, like, read it all out and everybody was dying.
Aaron
01:40:27 – 01:40:28
Oh, that's a great idea.
Caleb
01:40:28 – 01:40:38
You gotta keep lists of, like, every little funny thing people say because it's fun just to look at on a car ride. Okay. So layouts. First thing, you got a header layout. Okay.
Caleb
01:40:38 – 01:40:51
It spans the full width, but you want it to be a constrained width, right? Like a container. So you add tailwinds container class or you do max w seven x l m x auto, right? Yep. But you need the background and border to span the full width, so now you need the wrapping dip.
Caleb
01:40:51 – 01:40:52
Can I get a dog?
Ian
01:40:52 – 01:40:55
You're hoo hoo hoo hoo. Can
Caleb
01:41:01 – 01:41:16
Great. You put something in a sidebar and but the you had to get it, like, positioned all perfectly on the page. Now on mobile, you have to create a completely separate sidebar div that hides, and now you duplicate all those links. Can I get a handle? Yeah.
Ian
01:41:16 – 01:41:17
Amen. Oh,
Caleb
01:41:17 – 01:41:20
yeah. Okay. What else can I squeeze
Ian
01:41:20 – 01:41:21
out of you?
Caleb
01:41:21 – 01:41:26
There's two things. I mean, obviously, like, some of the stuff you already know, but, like, if you have That's
Ian
01:41:26 – 01:41:28
two days of work, though. Like, if you
Caleb
01:41:28 – 01:41:31
have a If you have a sticky header, if you have a sticky header,
Ian
01:41:31 – 01:41:32
all the That's not those.
Aaron
01:41:32 – 01:41:32
All the
Caleb
01:41:33 – 01:41:37
like, you can just do position sticky, but now all the content is shoved. No. That's not true.
Aaron
01:41:37 – 01:41:38
If you
Caleb
01:41:38 – 01:41:39
have a sticky sidebar
Aaron
01:41:39 – 01:41:40
That was with you.
Caleb
01:41:40 – 01:41:54
Header's fine. You can just do CSS position sticky, and you're good, And it will place everything under it. It's not like absolute. It's just sticky. But if you have a sidebar and you do sticky, you have to hard code in a pixel value or whatever value for top For the like, the absolute top.
Caleb
01:41:54 – 01:41:55
So it has to be so you have to
Aaron
01:41:55 – 01:41:55
Correct.
Caleb
01:41:55 – 01:42:10
Hard code in the height of your header and not diverge from that to get that sticky behavior. And then you have an aside, like, a right sidebar that has, like, a different height that, you know, all that stuff. I'm definitely calculated that run time Yeah. And it's, to and it's taken care of for you. Can I get a hallelujah?
Caleb
01:42:11 – 01:42:11
Hey.
Aaron
01:42:11 – 01:42:13
Hallelujah. Hey, man. That's amazing.
Ian
01:42:14 – 01:42:14
I love it.
Caleb
01:42:14 – 01:42:21
Let's keep going. That's awesome. You built that sidebar that stashes automatically, and you have a transition or whatever. So when you click it, it transitions out. Right?
Caleb
01:42:22 – 01:42:28
Great. Yeah. But you reload the page, and it flashes and transitions away for a second. Can I get an hallelujah?
Aaron
01:42:28 – 01:42:29
Yet? Halo.
Aaron
01:42:29 – 01:42:30
That is some jank.
Aaron
01:42:30 – 01:42:31
That is some
Caleb
01:42:31 – 01:42:32
jank right there. I don't
Aaron
01:42:32 – 01:42:33
like that one bit.
Caleb
01:42:34 – 01:42:35
Yes. And just keep figuring out
Ian
01:42:35 – 01:42:37
all that stuff. It takes so long. Yes. Give me more.
Caleb
01:42:37 – 01:42:50
We're still going. You have the sidebar in its sticky position and everything, but the content you want to be scrollable and not expand the page. Can I do that? Yes. All of them.
Ian
01:42:51 – 01:42:52
The the
Caleb
01:42:52 – 01:43:05
height of the body is or the height of the body and the sidebar are too short, and they don't span the full height. They look weird on the random page that has, like, no content. Super embarrassing. Here's another good one. This is a recent one.
Caleb
01:43:05 – 01:43:17
You do all this stuff. Yeah. Then on mobile, somebody slides out the sidebar Yep. Scrolls down, and the bottom's cut off because your mobile browser puts that optional thing that hides and shows that it isn't.
Aaron
01:43:17 – 01:43:17
Yep. Yep.
Caleb
01:43:17 – 01:43:29
You just did h screen, which is a hundred VH, vertical height. If you do that, it will not account for that, and it will be cut off. So you have to do DVH, which is dynamic view height, and then it'll adapt for all those view heights.
Aaron
01:43:29 – 01:43:30
Hate that.
Caleb
01:43:30 – 01:43:31
Oh my god. Can I get a hollower?
Aaron
01:43:31 – 01:43:32
Hallelujah. Amen.
Caleb
01:43:32 – 01:43:37
So Hallelujah. Goes on and on and on. Oh, yeah. Whatever. I mean, just
Aaron
01:43:37 – 01:43:38
whatever. It's
Ian
01:43:38 – 01:43:50
whatever. And every time you have to do that, and every time you go to Tailwind layouts. You're you're in the freaking Mozilla doc site figuring out some BS about how browsers work, like, just to make the stupid layout. It's terrible.
Caleb
01:43:51 – 01:44:07
Oh, and then, like, in your header, you have justify between for the logo and then all the other buttons, but then need, like, a search thing. And then it's, like, centered weird or you put it in between some other container and then shove that over and then on you know, blah blah blah. It's just really annoying. Done. Oh, and that search because you use spacers, by the way.
Caleb
01:44:07 – 01:44:23
That's how you make that easy. Yep. If you have a search bar or whatever, you have easy styling for an input, but you want it to be a button that opens like a a modal or something. So I have to make a button perfectly match the styling of an input, the borders, the shadow, the height The height is
Ian
01:44:23 – 01:44:24
long by two pixels. Oh, wait.
Aaron
01:44:24 – 01:44:25
It's the
Ian
01:44:25 – 01:44:25
whole thing.
Caleb
01:44:25 – 01:44:37
Yes. It needs to pretend to be a button. So in Flux, you just do Flux input as button, and it's a completely separate component that has been painstakingly separately crafted to mirror every state of the input. So you
Aaron
01:44:37 – 01:44:38
can just treat
Caleb
01:44:38 – 01:44:51
it like input and say as button, and it will behave exactly the same, except it's an input. Or it's a button. Or you could add href, and now it's a link because anything you add h ref to that's normally a button influx becomes an a tag with an h ref.
Ian
01:44:51 – 01:44:53
Boom. This is the level of detail.
Aaron
01:44:53 – 01:45:00
This is where you have with the alter call. You gotta tell them, come to the front and put your money in the bin, and you two will be saved. So give me that all
Aaron
01:45:00 – 01:45:01
you give me the pitch.
Caleb
01:45:01 – 01:45:12
This is the part I never land literally in my days of, like, preaching. I actually, like, had somebody else do the actual altar call after building them up for, like, a weekend because I was like, I can't do it. I can't do it.
Aaron
01:45:12 – 01:45:12
You got
Aaron
01:45:12 – 01:45:15
them to the emotional high, and you couldn't close it?
Aaron
01:45:15 – 01:45:15
No. No. No. No. No.
Aaron
01:45:15 – 01:45:16
No. No. No. No. No.
Caleb
01:45:16 – 01:45:16
No. No. No. No. No.
Caleb
01:45:16 – 01:45:16
No. No. No. No. No.
Caleb
01:45:16 – 01:45:16
No. No. No. No. No.
Caleb
01:45:16 – 01:45:16
No. No. No. No. No.
Caleb
01:45:16 – 01:45:16
No. No. No. No. No.
Caleb
01:45:16 – 01:45:16
No. No. No. No. No.
Caleb
01:45:16 – 01:45:18
No. No. No. No. No
Ian
01:45:24 – 01:45:29
FluxUI.net. Aaron Aaron, can you show me how to save the
Caleb
01:45:30 – 01:45:32
the the wandering developers?
Aaron
01:45:33 – 01:45:42
Yeah. Immediately following the milk toast pitch, don't say, did I do it? That's definitely, like, that's tip number one.
Caleb
01:45:42 – 01:45:48
Oh. Definitely don't do that. I can't I'm not a closer. I'm a warmer upper.
Ian
01:45:48 – 01:45:53
You're not a closer. You got you should be a warmer upper. Jerry Glenn Ross last night. Just the I was told
Aaron
01:45:53 – 01:45:53
we've seen,
Ian
01:45:54 – 01:45:55
like, five, six times just
Aaron
01:45:55 – 01:45:55
to get
Ian
01:45:55 – 01:45:56
you to set your for
Caleb
01:45:56 – 01:45:58
you in. Not last night.
Ian
01:45:58 – 01:45:59
But recent movie or just the No.
Caleb
01:45:59 – 01:46:01
No. No. You sent the clip, and I
Ian
01:46:01 – 01:46:03
Yeah. Yeah. That's the clip is so good.
Aaron
01:46:03 – 01:46:04
The clip is so good. The clip.
Ian
01:46:04 – 01:46:04
Good clip. Nails.
Caleb
01:46:05 – 01:46:09
Lot of yelling. Lot of yelling. Yep. Gotta be a closer. You got
Ian
01:46:09 – 01:46:10
a close.
Caleb
01:46:10 – 01:46:29
T is for closers. So that's the layout, and that exists for so many things, that kind of, like, plus all these problems. But maybe here's one. So the the layout thing, I couldn't crack for the longest time. I tried a hundred different component setups, different, like, positioning setups.
Caleb
01:46:29 – 01:46:59
Here's one thing I will say that if you are building layouts by hand, all you need is divs and flexes. Like just use divs and flexes for everything make the whole thing a div and then flex like if it's a sidebar in this do flex and then you have this sidebar and then flex one for the rest of the content if it's a header, do it flex with this and then an expanding, and then this is flex inside of it. Use flex and flex call for everything, and it is actually good and and a good way to do it. But
Ian
01:46:59 – 01:47:01
I think they should use flux for everything.
Caleb
01:47:02 – 01:47:02
Hey.
Aaron
01:47:05 – 01:47:06
Flux There we go.
Caleb
01:47:06 – 01:47:07
Flux at all.
Aaron
01:47:07 – 01:47:09
Use code Ian for 10% off.
Ian
01:47:10 – 01:47:16
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like this idea. This here, explain this to the people, Caleb, because I think this is a, a good point.
Ian
01:47:16 – 01:47:36
There's a lot of people watching and all that stuff for the PHP world. That's not as familiar with components. It's like all these events you touch touch on a little bit there, but it's like, it's like when you manually build the layout and you manually build the input, but you still have everything else in your app to build and none of it looks the same and then making it all look the same is a humongous, insane
Caleb
01:47:36 – 01:47:37
process. Yeah.
Ian
01:47:37 – 01:47:45
Like it's weeks of work and then still bad. So how does flux solve that for me as well as let me customize it and all that kind of thing.
Caleb
01:47:45 – 01:47:52
Yeah. Right. I mean, you get, you get the consistency out of the box in the sense that, like, we make sure that your inputs are the same height as your buttons are the same height as your tab groups are the same.
Ian
01:47:52 – 01:47:53
All those little details,
Aaron
01:47:53 – 01:47:53
badge and all
Ian
01:47:53 – 01:47:58
that stuff. You use them next to each other. They just work and are the same. Like that's a huge, like you're just loading that
Caleb
01:47:58 – 01:47:59
to travel together. Huge.
Ian
01:47:59 – 01:48:05
Like, yes. Yeah. They're all together and work together and are meant to be put next to each other. And they don't look stupid when you do it. Yeah.
Caleb
01:48:05 – 01:48:16
And they look good and you can size them all down. That's the other thing is, like, this one area, you need it to be a little slimmer, but, like Mhmm. Okay. Like, I'll size this one down, and I have to size everyone down, and then all their paddings change. The shadows change.
Caleb
01:48:16 – 01:48:44
Their border radius has changed, and it's, you know, that whole thing. So, yeah, I mean, that that consistency is taken care of. It just fundamentally because we just made sure to take care of it. And I did a lot of, like, rendering them all next to each other and then, like, going pixel you know, doing the control shift c and then hovering over and making sure they all say the exact pixel count and not off by two because of the Yeah. Order problem and just other problems where sometimes randomly it's like, oh, the contents of this thing.
Caleb
01:48:44 – 01:48:57
Oh, here's a tip. I use h a lot, like a fixed height instead of Mhmm. A calculated height based on a text size and then a padding because it actually it's an escape hatch for so many weird problems. Yeah. So, like, headers are a fixed height.
Caleb
01:48:57 – 01:49:10
It's like h min h 14, I think, and then buttons are h, whatever, 10, 40 pixels. So, like, buttons inputs, it's all h 10. And that way you just know. And it was one of those things. It's like it feels weird and bad.
Caleb
01:49:10 – 01:49:23
Like, I should be hard coding and padding or whatever, but then you end up in these scenarios where you do, like, p y arbitrary variant, calc, this many rems minus one or two pixels, and it's like Right. This is stupid. H
Aaron
01:49:24 – 01:49:24
Yeah.
Caleb
01:49:24 – 01:49:40
This thing. And when you use fixed heights just in general, the world opens up to you because now you can use overflow properly. Like overflow scroll, and hidden and stuff. That's literally broken if you don't have hard coded heights in places. So you have the size
Ian
01:49:40 – 01:49:41
the case.
Caleb
01:49:41 – 01:49:54
Oh, it is bought. Some things two things I didn't understand anything about before building Flux is height and over overflow. I had zero idea. I thought I knew them so well. You don't know them until you start going like a
Ian
01:49:54 – 01:49:56
lot of magic in there.
Caleb
01:49:56 – 01:50:04
Why is this not overflowing? It says overflow x scroll. Why is this not scrolling? You know? Its parent says width full.
Caleb
01:50:04 – 01:50:22
Its parent says width full. You just start adding, like, a hundred width fulls and minute with this and that and expecting that somewhere, it's finally gonna go, okay. We'll constrain the width and scroll it. Those are some of the hard parts. I had another pitch for you on, flexi oh, here's here's one.
Caleb
01:50:22 – 01:50:23
Nailing it. Nailing the
Aaron
01:50:23 – 01:50:24
pitches. Yeah.
Ian
01:50:24 – 01:50:26
We got them going. We got them going now.
Caleb
01:50:26 – 01:50:40
Disabled states. So disabled states. This is one that, like, was kind of an afterthought for me. And then, like, all these afterthoughts, it turns into this whole big project. If you add a dis if you have a field, can you add a disabled thing?
Caleb
01:50:40 – 01:50:52
Like, okay, you can disable the input. First, does your input look different if it's disabled? And how does it look different? Did you just slap on a, like, cursor not allowed in opacity 50? Because, like, a, it's gonna look weird in some places.
Caleb
01:50:52 – 01:51:43
It's not gonna be consistent, and cursor not allowed is a weird thing to put on disabled. Like, it doesn't you should do cursor default, you know? Mhmm. And start like, so Hugo did some things like disabled inputs shouldn't have a shadow, you know like no shadow on anything disabled and it looks like it's very subtle and it's really clean but it just seems like this thing that is disabled so you got your input disabled but is your label disabled is it showing that it's disabled and is it disabled like you have a custom input that you built and then you have a label can you click that label to focus that input like a native input because you have to do that and you have to relate yeah so in a field set if you put disabled in a field set do all the fields become disabled and all the labels show up in that gray style? And is your disabled style different than your subtle variant?
Caleb
01:51:43 – 01:52:09
Because, like, you have to make sure that if you're using, like, subtle, you know, like slightly more faded colors and things, but it's part of your, like, design, disabled needs to be a notch below that. Like, they need to be on a different z index of visual design so people know visually that, like, oh, obviously, this thing is disabled and this thing is just aesthetically lighter. You know? These are the things that you're never ever gonna deal with if you build it all yourself. You know?
Ian
01:52:09 – 01:52:10
No.
Aaron
01:52:10 – 01:52:11
And if if the people don't
Aaron
01:52:11 – 01:52:17
wanna build it all themselves, Caleb, where could they go to, to just
Caleb
01:52:18 – 01:52:19
have all those problems themselves?
Aaron
01:52:19 – 01:52:20
Okay. Do.
Caleb
01:52:20 – 01:52:33
You're not gonna get me to close. Here's another one. Here's another disabled state one. If you build your own custom inputs I'm so sorry. If you build your own custom inputs that support a disabled attribute Mhmm.
Caleb
01:52:33 – 01:52:36
What happens if somebody removes that at runtime for any reason?
Aaron
01:52:36 – 01:52:37
I have no idea.
Caleb
01:52:38 – 01:52:48
Nothing. You register a mutation observer on disabled that detects that and then reenables all the things it needs to reenable at runtime. Like, these are the details that you have to go to
Ian
01:52:49 – 01:52:49
Insurance.
Caleb
01:52:49 – 01:52:54
To make your inputs like native ones. And that's what we do. So go buy Flux.
Ian
01:52:55 – 01:52:56
Wait. Flux.
Caleb
01:52:58 – 01:53:01
Where? FluxUI.dev,
Aaron
01:53:01 – 01:53:06
baby. Amazing. Flawless execution. Great landing. That was perfect.
Caleb
01:53:06 – 01:53:07
Stucks the landing.
Aaron
01:53:07 – 01:53:08
He sure did.
Ian
01:53:09 – 01:53:10
I got
Aaron
01:53:10 – 01:53:10
stuck. I
Caleb
01:53:10 – 01:53:11
got caught.
Aaron
01:53:11 – 01:53:11
If we
Ian
01:53:11 – 01:53:15
wanna do a couple questions, I don't know how long we plan on going. I know all that. But, like
Caleb
01:53:16 – 01:53:19
As long as we're on here, I'm not dealing with this barrage of emails, so you'll have to
Aaron
01:53:19 – 01:53:26
stop by now. Sure. There are only, discount codes are broken that you have to fix when you get off stream. So Yeah. We're just sitting here forever.
Caleb
01:53:26 – 01:53:27
As long as we can.
Ian
01:53:27 – 01:53:29
Yeah. We're never getting off.
Aaron
01:53:29 – 01:53:29
We're on
Ian
01:53:29 – 01:53:39
this was a good one. Producer Dave sent this over. People are asking what the best way to report bugs with Flux are. Do you want them in gift issues in that rebepo? That seems like maybe not there.
Caleb
01:53:39 – 01:53:42
Yeah. Besides, though, Tim's hiding
Ian
01:53:42 – 01:53:48
on the livestream, like, Justin TV here, so he's never fixing anything. But So I don't know if you came up with a plan with that yet, or is it
Caleb
01:53:48 – 01:54:01
support or what? I wrote down I have the show the show, colon, and then I have, questions that I thought we could talk about because I have a little agenda here, and it says, fielding issues
Aaron
01:54:01 – 01:54:01
Hour
Aaron
01:54:01 – 01:54:03
and forty minutes detail. Detail.
Caleb
01:54:04 – 01:54:28
As an agenda. I have words. I know that it's that, like, maybe this is something we could actually brainstorm and take from zero to hero because I haven't really thought that hard about it. And I need a way for people to submit bugs and whatever, and then I also need a way for people to say somebody's gonna email me and say, we need this to support whatever. We I really want, whatever, a bigger badge.
Caleb
01:54:28 – 01:54:35
And then 10 people are gonna do that, and I'm gonna have to say, yeah. I know. And where does it go? I would love a place that's, like, just go upvote it here. You know?
Caleb
01:54:35 – 01:54:41
Maybe I'll write them out. You upvote it, and then we know, like, what's I don't know. Okay. Well, that's why I'm asking, so hit me.
Ian
01:54:41 – 01:54:49
Well, this is the way we handle it. I don't know if it's the best way, but bugs, they just come in, and we file them ourselves. There's no public place.
Caleb
01:54:50 – 01:54:51
So it's support email is where they go.
Ian
01:54:51 – 01:55:09
Support email is bugs. And I do think for your I mean, this is obviously a little different, but at the same time, like just having them public and people can't really fix it anyway, or do you want them fixed? I don't know. It's like the public part isn't as beneficial as it is with like a Livewire or whatever. And then and even there I know you sometimes have There's trouble with that at scale, right?
Ian
01:55:09 – 01:55:12
So, and then feature I
Caleb
01:55:12 – 01:55:14
know you're a total jerk as well
Ian
01:55:17 – 01:55:21
I'm on the dhh bandwagon of feature request. We were just taught producer. Dave was trying to
Aaron
01:55:21 – 01:55:24
get me to do today. He loves dhh now.
Ian
01:55:24 – 01:55:36
I I've I've tried pick by dhh takes. Oh, he's still insane. Right? But he has some okay takes and one of them is you don't just log feature requests and you don't vote on m a that stuff.
Caleb
01:55:36 – 01:55:36
Okay. Right.
Ian
01:55:36 – 01:55:38
You just let them wash over you.
Aaron
01:55:38 – 01:55:38
Yeah.
Ian
01:55:38 – 01:55:51
And when you hear it enough, then that's when you go do it. Obviously you have your own features you wanna build, but you don't even necessarily need input on, but not the, like, the thing. Oh, there's 72 votes. The people are yelling at me. It's not built yet.
Ian
01:55:51 – 01:55:56
No. Like this is curated. Yeah. We will decide what goes in the product and
Aaron
01:55:56 – 01:55:56
Right.
Ian
01:55:56 – 01:56:02
We are listening and you should email us and we will listen, but that's it's not like a public thing. That's Yes.
Caleb
01:56:02 – 01:56:03
That's how
Ian
01:56:03 – 01:56:03
we do it.
Caleb
01:56:04 – 01:56:12
Yep. I think that's a good reminder. The the DHH lets stuff wash over you, like, and, like, trash your whole you know, that whole backlog. Yeah. Hit delete.
Caleb
01:56:13 – 01:56:14
Like the important stuff's gonna get done or not,
Ian
01:56:14 – 01:56:21
you know? And like, it's great. And then you just put it right. You make an issue or however you manage your, you know, your linear or whatever you do. Yeah.
Ian
01:56:21 – 01:56:32
It's like, I'm gonna build this and I'll put it in the list of things to build. That's happens sometimes instantly. Something comes in and we just do it because it's like, oh, shit. That's a great idea. And other times it's like, okay.
Ian
01:56:32 – 01:56:37
Like, that's reasonable, but, like, just let it wash over. And if we hear it again and again
Aaron
01:56:37 – 01:56:37
I think
Aaron
01:56:37 – 01:56:39
bugs are different, though.
Ian
01:56:39 – 01:56:40
Bugs are different. Yeah.
Caleb
01:56:40 – 01:56:54
Yeah. Before we get to bugs, feature requests, letting it wash over you, I think the solution for me that I needed before is, like, I need to have a good reply or save reply or something that I can send and not feel like I have to, like, really engage with this. You know? Yeah. For sure.
Caleb
01:56:54 – 01:56:59
Really engaging thing that I always default to that just turns your life into a hellscape of
Ian
01:56:59 – 01:57:00
Don't ignore this.
Caleb
01:57:00 – 01:57:10
Communication, whatever. So I need, like, a canned response that's like Yeah. I am I hear what you're saying, but I'm gonna let it wash over me right now. So That's what it is.
Aaron
01:57:10 – 01:57:13
Dear sir or madam, thank you for writing in.
Ian
01:57:13 – 01:57:17
Well, there's two there's two things with that. Your request
Caleb
01:57:17 – 01:57:18
will go right into the bin.
Ian
01:57:19 – 01:57:24
You obviously have a thing that's like, we're listening and we always listen and we,
Aaron
01:57:24 – 01:57:25
we always listen. Our
Ian
01:57:26 – 01:57:33
features are built from customer. Most of our features are built from customer feedback, which is totally true. Right. And so that's all fine. You definitely receive response to that.
Aaron
01:57:33 – 01:57:34
Okay. And
Ian
01:57:34 – 01:57:35
then the second part is
Caleb
01:57:35 – 01:57:36
I write this down
Ian
01:57:36 – 01:57:40
some point soon, hopefully you are not the one answering those.
Caleb
01:57:40 – 01:57:41
That's right.
Ian
01:57:41 – 01:57:53
And so if you have a support person, then even if there is an engagement, like even if the person wants to talk about it more, like, they can talk to them, talk it through, and the the support person can make sure you've heard it in whatever form you wanna hear it in.
Aaron
01:57:53 – 01:57:53
And
Aaron
01:57:54 – 01:57:56
Which is not to hear it at all. Yeah.
Ian
01:57:56 – 01:57:58
Right. Depending on what it is. You know?
Caleb
01:57:58 – 01:58:05
No. I just wanted to wash over me. I I I just wanna, like, wake up in, like, Alexa or something. I'll just be like,
Aaron
01:58:05 – 01:58:05
Moe
Ian
01:58:06 – 01:58:07
Here's what we heard yesterday.
Caleb
01:58:07 – 01:58:08
Yeah. Like, or whatever.
Ian
01:58:09 – 01:58:10
This is Josh.
Aaron
01:58:10 – 01:58:14
Record that for you before he goes to bed because of the time zone offset. So he can record
Aaron
01:58:14 – 01:58:14
That's a
Caleb
01:58:14 – 01:58:14
bad idea.
Aaron
01:58:15 – 01:58:18
All the feature votes, and then you could play it in the morning.
Ian
01:58:18 – 01:58:24
Another nice part of it while being an email is that you don't have that pressure. It's like when it's public feature request
Aaron
01:58:24 – 01:58:24
Yes.
Aaron
01:58:24 – 01:58:25
Agreed.
Aaron
01:58:25 – 01:58:25
If you
Ian
01:58:25 – 01:58:32
don't engage with it, well, then you're an idiot. Right? You're like, why isn't Caleb himself talking? I mean, why isn't Caleb putting more than a sentence into this. Right?
Ian
01:58:32 – 01:58:36
But if it's over email, it's fine. It's like, hey. I'm sending this feature request. You're like, great. Got it.
Ian
01:58:36 – 01:58:40
We're gonna I'll think it over, and that's it. Like, it's a nice clean interaction. Whereas, it's been public
Aaron
01:58:40 – 01:58:41
things never.
Ian
01:58:41 – 01:58:46
Complaining. And, oh, four years ago, somebody posted about this, and
Aaron
01:58:46 – 01:58:46
you
Ian
01:58:46 – 01:58:46
never built it.
Aaron
01:58:46 – 01:58:47
Plus one plus one.
Ian
01:58:47 – 01:58:52
Right. Yeah. Right. Like, that all that stuff doesn't help you. It doesn't do anything for anybody.
Caleb
01:58:52 – 01:58:55
So Yeah. Okay. So features, settled. Issues.
Ian
01:58:55 – 01:58:56
There you go.
Caleb
01:58:56 – 01:59:04
We pipe them through. Issues are tough. Issues are tough. Issues are tough. The one really nice
Aaron
01:59:04 – 01:59:07
thing has a Nova issues repo that's just
Caleb
01:59:08 – 01:59:22
Just for issues. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, we have the LiveWire Flux repo, which is the natural place to have those things. I mean, people would be submitting the only kind of question there is, like, you're submitting an issue on a on a component that's not in the public repo.
Caleb
01:59:22 – 01:59:27
Yeah. I I think it's fine, like, right? It's it's a public place to talk about it.
Aaron
01:59:27 – 01:59:28
Totally fine.
Caleb
01:59:28 – 01:59:36
It's fine. Yeah. And it's, like, I don't even think if somebody was, like, hey, like, here's all my code and paste it in and people could scrape it for it's, like, whatever. At that point, just have it. Yeah.
Caleb
01:59:36 – 01:59:38
Yeah. I think that's that. One cobble to
Ian
01:59:38 – 01:59:39
the other. I don't
Aaron
01:59:39 – 01:59:46
think that's a problem. A good idea, but you could also build that into your app that you want people to continually visit all the time. Your back office app
Caleb
01:59:46 – 01:59:47
Mhmm. Build what oh, the
Aaron
01:59:47 – 01:59:48
Issues.
Caleb
01:59:49 – 01:59:50
Issues. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, all
Aaron
01:59:50 – 01:59:52
the people that paid have access to, like, look at issues,
Aaron
01:59:52 – 01:59:53
talk about issues.
Caleb
01:59:53 – 01:59:54
Issue board
Ian
01:59:54 – 01:59:55
or something.
Aaron
01:59:55 – 01:59:59
Yeah. Yeah. That's true. App. I don't think that's a good idea, but it is an idea.
Caleb
01:59:59 – 02:00:01
I mean, you could
Ian
02:00:01 – 02:00:19
just experiment with it not being public at all and they email them into. I think the only thing with your product being entirely just code, it is nice to have those tools to be like, here's I'm giving you the code that didn't work and things like that, rather than just saying this feature doesn't work, You know, it looks a little bit different. But Yep. Oh, yeah.
Aaron
02:00:19 – 02:00:19
It's a
Ian
02:00:19 – 02:00:23
private repo, private Zoho or private something potentially.
Caleb
02:00:23 – 02:00:26
For now, it's public repo issues.
Ian
02:00:26 – 02:00:28
Can't wait for bugs. If it doesn't work.
Caleb
02:00:28 – 02:00:31
Right? Yeah. I mean, I would love to make it discussions, but
Ian
02:00:32 – 02:00:33
Alright. Didn't know what you do in Livewire?
Caleb
02:00:33 – 02:00:34
How much
Aaron
02:00:34 – 02:00:34
you do
Aaron
02:00:34 – 02:00:35
in Livewire? Discussions.
Caleb
02:00:35 – 02:01:06
The way I do discussions is, like, the community hammers it out and then then, like Right. The chosen few submit pull requests, and then I put my brain on it. Where this is, like, a paid thing, I can't just let the community work it out. So so maybe we just do issues, and, like, I try to I if I've come if I find myself in a place where I'm feeling held hostage by issues that, like, I just have to, you know, don the the, the, like, ruthless, brutal, just close it, whatever. If you're mad at me, fine.
Caleb
02:01:06 – 02:01:19
It's like, I gotta yeah. I gotta, like, keep on with life here. Yeah. Because yeah. And then if it's public, then people I can always close duplicate stuff, but this is the kind of thing that I really, really hate, and this is where you you have somebody else do it.
Caleb
02:01:19 – 02:01:19
You know?
Aaron
02:01:19 – 02:01:22
I think you have somebody else do it. I think that's the answer.
Caleb
02:01:22 – 02:01:31
Yeah. I mean, the dream is, like, somebody else deals with all that public facing stuff. Shh. And then the dream silver platter me, you know, like, here's an HTML file that
Aaron
02:01:31 – 02:01:32
you can load
Ian
02:01:32 – 02:01:32
on some computers.
Aaron
02:01:32 – 02:01:38
In your cabin in the woods, and they just bring you a plate full of issues, and you just fix them.
Caleb
02:01:38 – 02:01:40
Isn't it the easiest like, picture
Aaron
02:01:40 – 02:01:40
how much you
Caleb
02:01:40 – 02:01:55
hate issues and everything. Now picture picture a bra picture a browser Yeah. With the reproduction right there, and all your local stuff is all sim linked, and that NPM run watch is already running. Now you're actually having fun. Now this is your Let's dig into
Ian
02:01:55 – 02:01:57
this issue. This
Caleb
02:01:57 – 02:01:57
is your SaaS.
Aaron
02:01:57 – 02:02:00
Hallelujah. I'll give you a hallelujah on that one. Hallelujah.
Ian
02:02:00 – 02:02:05
Just code it code injecting into your local environment, whatever people post on GitHub. I love this idea.
Aaron
02:02:05 – 02:02:07
It's a great idea. It's a
Caleb
02:02:07 – 02:02:09
great idea. I get it. It shows up.
Ian
02:02:09 – 02:02:09
It's just
Aaron
02:02:09 – 02:02:13
a jack thing. I don't wanna do I don't wanna do all the surrounding stuff.
Ian
02:02:13 – 02:02:15
That's a I just want
Aaron
02:02:15 – 02:02:19
to be I just wanna be delivered the thing and just do it. You know?
Caleb
02:02:19 – 02:02:34
These are my office hours. You know? Like These And I'm pairing with the person I pay to, like, curate all this stuff and make it all happen or whatever. Now we have our pairing office hours, so I have, like, this accountability on pair on you know, they already know they're familiar with the thing. Yep.
Caleb
02:02:34 – 02:02:46
And then we can just sit there, and I have somebody watching me, so I'll make make better decisions, and I won't just, like, punt on stuff. I'll solve stuff well. That's the move is to get that sort of rhythm. So how do I frame a let's talk employment.
Aaron
02:02:48 – 02:02:48
How
Caleb
02:02:48 – 02:03:08
do I I historically employ nobody. I pay contractors randomly for stuff, and I'm scared to death of, like, just blowing money into the ether on and on somebody that will make my life either harder or just do stuff that wouldn't have mattered if it wasn't done anyway. You know? And and so yeah. That's always kinda been my big fear.
Caleb
02:03:08 – 02:03:19
But these things I'm describing, I would love to be tackled. But if I think about, like, a hundred thousand year dev salary to, like, sit on support and issues and stuff and pair with me, it just doesn't feel right. You know?
Ian
02:03:19 – 02:03:56
You did talk about this on notes on work, and I think you gotta reframe this whole thing a little bit for yourself because I don't think you're buying what you think you're buying. I think you're buying something different when you hire somebody. Then it's not always so tied to just, like, you're spent the money and now it's gone from you or you are they making you back the equivalent money you're spending on them times two or whatever, especially for a small company, like you are buying your time and that is valuable for all kinds of things besides just the business. Like you had a kid in the hospital, you powered through it, but you know what? Every day you get older, more stuff happens.
Ian
02:03:56 – 02:04:07
You get more tired. Like you're buying other things. Like I'm I'm gonna hey. I'm gonna not have to be here at all. I can ignore work for a week, and everything's totally fine.
Ian
02:04:07 – 02:04:14
I'm not coming back to 500 emails. Right? Like, that has a lot of money, which, yeah, know, of value. Right? Which like, yeah.
Ian
02:04:14 – 02:04:29
In the moment when you're hiring somebody like, oh, is it worth it? But then you would, if I was like, oh, Caleb, like after you, you could spend two weeks just thinking about the kids in the hospital and all that stuff, and you could ignore it everything. And when you came back, it would be fine. If I said that's gonna cost, give me $20,000
Aaron
02:04:29 – 02:04:29
Yeah.
Ian
02:04:29 – 02:04:43
That's right now and make that happen. You'd be like, well, I'll give you $20,000 because that's worth $20,000 for me. Right. So like, that's what you're, that's a part of what you're buying is this flexibility and mental stability and business continuity and yeah. There you go.
Aaron
02:04:43 – 02:04:44
You should read them.
Caleb
02:04:45 – 02:04:53
I flipped, flipped through it the other day. Adam was like, you should buy this book. And, and I was like Yeah. I was like, yes. I will buy the book.
Caleb
02:04:53 – 02:04:58
It will be a great point in my office. With the book, what do I do next? Yeah. How
Ian
02:04:59 – 02:05:00
And there's just,
Aaron
02:05:00 – 02:05:01
like, all put together.
Ian
02:05:01 – 02:05:08
Does a support person literally make you money in a direct way? No. Do they actually make you lots of money? Yes. Because, like, if
Caleb
02:05:08 – 02:05:19
you're buying your time. That's that's a really good kind of fundamental awakening Yes. Thing that's, like, you're not necessarily like, to me, it's very much like an asset thing. It's like
Ian
02:05:20 – 02:05:20
Right.
Caleb
02:05:20 – 02:05:32
It's an investment thing. It's like, this money needs to be deploying to make more money if I'm gonna deploy it. Otherwise, I'll put it in the stock market, and then it'll make more money there. Right. And it feels like yeah.
Caleb
02:05:32 – 02:05:38
But, of course, of course, that's not the whole equation because plenty of work isn't like that.
Ian
02:05:38 – 02:05:38
Right.
Aaron
02:05:38 – 02:05:38
It's
Caleb
02:05:38 – 02:05:57
like and and even, like, I've I've had that outlook sort, like, of course, I could be yeah. Well, obviously, a support person is not gonna make you more money. It'll make your business better over the long run, but but the the thing that I really like about your framing is it's not even about, like, well, you also have to burn money on stuff that doesn't make you money. It's part of the thing, and it props up the stuff that makes money. No.
Caleb
02:05:57 – 02:05:59
You're buying back your time because you're doing this anyway.
Ian
02:06:00 – 02:06:00
Right.
Caleb
02:06:00 – 02:06:01
And your time is valuable.
Aaron
02:06:01 – 02:06:02
You're the talent. You're doing.
Caleb
02:06:02 – 02:06:03
Yes. Yes.
Ian
02:06:03 – 02:06:28
And your talent happens and your business is gonna greatly stop. If something happens to you and you're out of commission, like your gallbladder attacks you and you're iffy for months, and then you go to surgery and all that stuff, like that's going to have a real impact on your business. If you literally can't do anything or not much for months and that could happen, right? Like stuff just happens. And at that point, when you're at that point, the other problem is how do you hire somebody then?
Ian
02:06:28 – 02:06:46
Like you don't feel like hiring anybody then like you're whatever. Maybe you can't hire anybody or you just don't feel like whatever. Whereas if you're the things are in motion and people are in place, then when you're working full steam ahead, lots of stuff's getting done. But even if you're not other stuff is still getting done. Even right now, you have Josh answering those emails.
Ian
02:06:46 – 02:06:48
You would have 600 emails waiting.
Aaron
02:06:48 – 02:06:48
Thank you, Josh.
Ian
02:06:48 – 02:07:00
Josh answering those emails. Right? So like that is making you money, Australia, all that stuff. But yeah, so it's all valuable. If you people have to wait four days to hear from you, they're gonna be like, why am I paying this guy $500 a year?
Ian
02:07:00 – 02:07:10
Like, so that's the other thing with justifying You know, you have a big vision for this even right, where you wanna have it be recurring and have teams and all that stuff.
Caleb
02:07:10 – 02:07:11
Yeah. Yeah.
Ian
02:07:11 – 02:07:22
And a big part of that, especially after the first year, is gonna be support. And so having somebody who's doing that and making sure it's a good experience for people is super valuable. So
Caleb
02:07:22 – 02:07:33
So how do you this is this is a hard part about this that I I think this is one of those what are they called? Like, a thought that is misleading or just a whatever. You'll tell me that I shouldn't even think this
Aaron
02:07:33 – 02:07:35
Oh, yeah. But Misleading thought.
Caleb
02:07:35 – 02:07:37
Yeah. Mhmm.
Aaron
02:07:37 – 02:07:38
Son of a bitch.
Caleb
02:07:38 – 02:07:51
It's like, I figured you would have made a snarky comment sooner, then I was like, oh, he actually knows the word, and then you got me. Got him. Got him. So a tough so try to think of the dang word. Red herring?
Caleb
02:07:51 – 02:07:52
Somebody
Aaron
02:07:53 – 02:07:54
Is that it?
Caleb
02:07:54 – 02:07:59
No. No. But, shoot. That's fine. Of, like, any of these situations, that's a good Yeah.
Caleb
02:07:59 – 02:08:02
One. It's like pink elephant Close enough. Color, animal.
Aaron
02:08:03 – 02:08:04
Red herring's real.
Caleb
02:08:04 – 02:08:20
Red herring's real. So, hiring somebody for this role, it's like, ideally, they're a capable developer. They know all the ins and outs of, like, all these things, and they're smart and they're good. Who wants to sit there and support and, like, triage issues if they have that level of knowledge? You know?
Caleb
02:08:20 – 02:08:37
And then if I get somebody to do that because because they, like they love me, they want a little bit of the exposure, they wanna be have, like, a cool life and not have to have a real job. Like, this then they come to this, but then they're not gonna love it long term. Right? Like, this isn't satisfying for that person if they're you know? So that's that's to me
Aaron
02:08:37 – 02:08:39
is another kind of weird thing.
Caleb
02:08:39 – 02:08:41
Counterpoint. Counter.
Aaron
02:08:41 – 02:09:05
The same I've heard that same exact argument a long time ago from one Taylor Otwell. And then, as it relates to forge, I think. And then they found PHP Goose who just, like, knows everything about all things servers and just loves working on support. And so those people do exist. I don't know where or how you find them, but just because you don't like
Caleb
02:09:05 – 02:09:07
it doesn't mean other people don't.
Ian
02:09:07 – 02:09:11
Yeah. That's a bad Caleb Monson set. There's a lot of people out there.
Caleb
02:09:11 – 02:09:13
Most people out there bad Caleb Monson.
Aaron
02:09:13 – 02:09:14
That's what it is.
Ian
02:09:14 – 02:09:29
Want don't want to have all the pressure and responsibility you have. Like Correct. And so, you know, now the specifics of the job are a little bit different, but, like, you know, the thing you think is boring would be horrible. A lot of people are like, you know what? I love this.
Ian
02:09:29 – 02:09:37
Nine to five, I show up. I punch my clock. Yep. I leave work, and I literally don't think about it for one second. And then I come back, and it's great.
Ian
02:09:37 – 02:09:39
So, like, that's what you have to realize.
Aaron
02:09:39 – 02:09:43
That's what our Kelsey does. She just does stuff all day long, and it's awesome.
Ian
02:09:44 – 02:09:53
That part of it, I do think it's hard what you're I just did this exact thing, like, a couple years ago with our support person, because we kind of need somebody who's like, can go on somebody's server and fix some stuff.
Caleb
02:09:53 – 02:09:54
Yeah.
Ian
02:09:54 – 02:10:13
But then also like just answer the feature request email. And so you get into like somebody with those skills, but also like somebody you probably can't really afford to pay, like, full on developer necessarily. So you're trying to balance that a little bit there. So, yeah, that's a little trickier than just hiring a pure dev for sure, because it's like Yeah. Yeah.
Ian
02:10:13 – 02:10:18
They're probably not just like, I wanna be in PHP all day in code. Like, that person's not the right person for that job.
Caleb
02:10:18 – 02:10:19
Yep.
Ian
02:10:19 – 02:10:32
But they're out there and you can find them. And maybe they're part time, and that gives people a different sort of flexibility. This is what I was saying the other day on Twitter. I was like, I'm glad these big companies are hiring, making people go back to work because that's now a big feature for us little guys. Like, hey, work from home.
Caleb
02:10:32 – 02:10:32
True.
Ian
02:10:32 – 02:10:40
Like, so, yeah, we can't pay you as much in some ways, but you can work from home and Amazon wants you to go in or whoever. Right? So
Caleb
02:10:40 – 02:10:56
Right. It's always the the dream is always to, like, cobble together these roles as, like like, reliable freelancer folks, you know, because, you know, if I had somebody doing two hours a day of, like, curating or whatever, you know Yeah. But then I this is that's what I
Ian
02:10:56 – 02:10:57
always do. Love it, though.
Caleb
02:10:57 – 02:11:02
Yeah. It never works. It Yeah. The the relationships always peter out because the work isn't Yep. It just
Aaron
02:11:03 – 02:11:06
It's not big enough to keep them to keep them going.
Ian
02:11:06 – 02:11:09
Yeah. Commitment. They're not as invested, like Yes.
Caleb
02:11:09 – 02:11:09
It's not as
Ian
02:11:09 – 02:11:26
We've hired you just gave up a lot of we had a lot of employees last, like, ten years plus. And Yeah. As a percentage, we haven't hired that many people overall, but the of the 10 or 15 people I've ever hired, like, a lot of them have stayed for years and years and years. And so, like, I do think there's, like, a commitment. You're making a commitment to them.
Ian
02:11:26 – 02:11:39
They're making a commitment to you. They could be fully invested. Like, when they only work two hours, well, you know, they're doing something else the other six hours. So, like, they're not learning your product necessarily as completely. They're not thinking about it as much.
Ian
02:11:39 – 02:11:43
So, like, I just think at some point, it's worth having that. There's a commitment level there that I think
Caleb
02:11:43 – 02:11:45
We have Kelsey has time.
Aaron
02:11:45 – 02:11:47
We have her twenty hours a week
Aaron
02:11:47 – 02:11:48
in deficit.
Ian
02:11:48 – 02:12:00
Yeah. I know. I mean, so you could have phases there. So, I mean, your your stuff is kind of big that I would feel like you could probably get somebody between, like, now Flux and just regular support even on other BS from your other stuff. Like Yeah.
Ian
02:12:00 – 02:12:06
There's enough especially if you get somebody to developer and maybe they actually do some coding. Like, maybe you get a real multi tool type.
Caleb
02:12:06 – 02:12:08
Right? I think I kind of need I mean, I I don't know.
Ian
02:12:08 – 02:12:09
The websites, all that stuff.
Caleb
02:12:09 – 02:12:24
If I just, like, spring for an actual developer, I just feel like I'll be so much happier because so much of it is is, like, develop y stuff. You know? Yeah. The actual just, like, issue a refund, issue a discount. Like, that's really easy, and anybody can do that.
Caleb
02:12:24 – 02:12:25
But it's yeah.
Ian
02:12:25 – 02:12:27
Yeah. It's only to make it clear it's part of
Caleb
02:12:27 – 02:12:42
their job. Like yeah. Take this week and build out, you know, whatever. Like, people are complaining that the licensing system is you know, build out, issuing new licenses, multi license. So you have one license, but you can issue new keys and rotate keys.
Caleb
02:12:42 – 02:12:43
None of that's built. You know?
Ian
02:12:43 – 02:12:44
Alright.
Caleb
02:12:44 – 02:13:02
It's like, take the week, build, test. I'll check it over, but this is your project. And then they can do that on top of that's kinda what I feel like would be a good thing, but it's, like, it also requires a lot of trust. I I would wanna know that it's somebody who can handle, a, like, a chore list every morning.
Aaron
02:13:02 – 02:13:03
Yeah.
Caleb
02:13:03 – 02:13:15
That's the dream. Big stuff at the end. But I know myself, and it's, like, those my fear is that I get in it with some the new person's always gonna be good, you know. Then over time, it's, like, I don't know. I
Ian
02:13:16 – 02:13:24
There's there's a whole mechanism for dealing with that, which is then they don't work for you anymore if it ends up not being good. You know? Yeah. And then That's the reality. This is the ugly part that we don't wanna deal with them.
Ian
02:13:24 – 02:13:28
So let's do it ourselves as long as we possibly can. Right? But, like
Caleb
02:13:28 – 02:13:29
Mhmm.
Ian
02:13:29 – 02:13:57
You know, that's the reality is if they stop working out, then they stop working out. But, like, yeah, I think as long as you get the right you're upfront in like the job description of your expectations that like, this is not just you work on Caleb's cool projects only, and there's no, no other stuff. No. Like you should expect to have two hours every day where you're issuing refunds and you're helping people and you're logging a feature request and whatever. And then after that, you're gonna have do some working on the website stuff.
Ian
02:13:57 – 02:14:13
And then after that, there might be, there's gonna be some time where you're helping me with some Cody code stuff or whatever. Right, right. Like, but it's gonna be all over, but every day there's gonna be you know, tasks and management of systems that is not coding, and you just gotta find that person that's into that.
Caleb
02:14:14 – 02:14:23
Yep. I think I am with it. Limiting limiting beliefs, I think, is what I was looking for, by the way. That one's fine. Yeah.
Caleb
02:14:24 – 02:14:38
There's, I had another, like, stick to throw in these spokes that you'll tell me is wrong, but I it's just transparently, like, another thing that holds me back from this stuff. Mhmm. And I don't remember it. Erin's gonna love it. Erin's gonna love that I don't remember it.
Aaron
02:14:40 – 02:14:40
How much
Ian
02:14:40 – 02:14:45
of this is just pulling off the Band Aid? You pull off the Band once you have an employee, then have a second one to share.
Aaron
02:14:45 – 02:14:46
It's just perfect.
Caleb
02:14:46 – 02:14:52
Gotta gotta bring it home. Gotta close it. Yeah. I think I just I probably just oh. Nope.
Ian
02:14:52 – 02:14:58
It was right there. Oh, employees.
Caleb
02:14:58 – 02:15:01
I don't know how to hire people. I don't know what to do.
Aaron
02:15:01 – 02:15:01
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb
02:15:01 – 02:15:06
Yeah. Like a live somebody here here's what it is. I got it. Erin, you're very excited. I'm
Aaron
02:15:06 – 02:15:07
ready. I'm so ready.
Caleb
02:15:07 – 02:15:24
You're ready. Yeah. Hiring a person, you know, this is really specialized stuff, some of it. You you could argue it doesn't have to be. But it's like, there's a very limited amount of people that know the Livewire core, the Alpine core, even just know the tools well enough and are, like, good at this skill set and everything.
Caleb
02:15:24 – 02:15:50
And they've those people generally reveal themselves in the community. Like, I could probably pull and a handful of them are unhirable because they wanna be independent, and then the other handful, there's other things, whatever. So there's this part of it that's, like, kind of attractive to me of, like, you would put it out to the world, you do the whole hiring process, and now you have an opportunity to surface people who've been buried that are incredibly good. You know? But those people, I I don't know.
Caleb
02:15:50 – 02:15:59
I'm just asking about that. Do you hire from inside? That's kind of the question. Do you go through all the pain, the whatever, and do you hire somebody who's incredible, but doesn't like, they're not even alive for
Ian
02:15:59 – 02:16:27
your thing? About this, but, like, with what you're saying, what we've talked about now, I would go out to the world because I think to me, the key thing you actually really need is like all the other stuff, like all, you're gonna have a lot of support email that has to be timely dealt with. You're gonna have bug fixes of back office systems and everything else. You're gonna have all this little stuff. And then you can, so if you hire somebody good and you just, you know, they're a good programmer and you know that they're okay doing these things, you can work backwards to the other part.
Ian
02:16:27 – 02:16:32
It's like, okay, I'll train them on Livewire over six months. But like the
Aaron
02:16:32 – 02:16:33
thing I need
Ian
02:16:33 – 02:16:47
help with tomorrow is not that they work on Livewire for me. It's that they do all this other stuff that I need help with. And I'd probably go from that perspective rather than like the person in the community who's like, oh man, I'm gonna work on livewire. This is awesome. And then you give them a bunch of stuff that's not livewire.
Ian
02:16:47 – 02:16:54
And then maybe they're not so excited about all the not livewire stuff. That doesn't mean they ineligible. Right? Like I think they would apply and that you could have the discussion.
Caleb
02:16:54 – 02:16:55
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ian
02:16:55 – 02:17:05
But, like, I don't think I would exclude or just, like, I mean, the ultimate bootstrapper pitfall is, like, I'm just hiring the people I know. And Mhmm.
Aaron
02:17:05 – 02:17:05
You
Ian
02:17:05 – 02:17:19
know, listen. Sometimes that works out for people, but a lot of times, it's not the best because it's just, like, you know, very limited field. How many people do you actually know who fit this role, you know, who are available? Like, a handful. And so it's pretty limiting to go that route.
Ian
02:17:19 – 02:17:19
And then
Aaron
02:17:20 – 02:17:21
Should should
Aaron
02:17:21 – 02:17:25
you just hire an executive admin? Is that what you should really hire for?
Caleb
02:17:25 – 02:17:26
I don't know.
Aaron
02:17:26 – 02:17:28
Is that is that the bulk of the work?
Caleb
02:17:28 – 02:17:43
I don't know. I don't think so. I don't think so. Because that can that, maybe the answer is yes, but can that person understand the domain in a way that is, like, useful and you know? You know what I'm saying?
Caleb
02:17:43 – 02:18:05
It's like, can that can that person, like, really go you know, people really want this, but and they're complaining that this part's holding them up in their install step. So, you know, if we change this about you so in some ways, it's an advantage because they don't have baggage, and they're not gonna, like, go down wrong trails. And but in another way, I just feel like I don't know. It would be an interesting constraint, but it my gut is just, like, oh, that'd be really weird.
Aaron
02:18:05 – 02:18:09
But there's a thing there there's such a thing as tier one and tier two support. Right? How much of it
Caleb
02:18:09 – 02:18:10
is Right.
Aaron
02:18:10 – 02:18:14
How much of it is tier one? Like, I need a refund, or I need a VAT thing, or
Caleb
02:18:14 – 02:18:15
Yeah.
Aaron
02:18:15 – 02:18:16
And I've Europe, then
Caleb
02:18:16 – 02:18:33
I need something. Could hire anybody and they could do it, and it's so not a big deal. Like, that's why I don't like doing it myself, but that's the stuff the stuff I really that will buy back my time, that won't buy back my time. Mhmm. It's, like, the stuff that'll buy back my time is to, like, curate all these bugs into, like, HTML files or, like, reproducible stuff.
Caleb
02:18:33 – 02:18:38
Get on a pair with me, walk me through it, and then I'll, like I love that you're using the you're using
Aaron
02:18:38 – 02:18:40
the book title having not read the book at all. You're like,
Aaron
02:18:40 – 02:18:41
no. No. No.
Aaron
02:18:41 – 02:18:42
No. We gotta buy back. We gotta buy back.
Ian
02:18:42 – 02:18:43
I don't know. I think
Caleb
02:18:43 – 02:18:46
I know. In the words of of Don Martin
Ian
02:18:47 – 02:18:47
grand motel.
Caleb
02:18:48 – 02:18:51
Of, you know, the You gotta buy back your time.
Ian
02:18:51 – 02:18:54
I think you might want everything about that. I learned
Aaron
02:18:54 – 02:18:55
from this book.
Caleb
02:18:55 – 02:19:04
It's time. You know how you can buy back your time? Chuck a book out the window. They take me forever to read.
Ian
02:19:04 – 02:19:13
Oh. There is a a really nice thing when you have a com see, this is kinda your first commercial software endeavor, though. Right? So there's gonna be different expectations. Right?
Ian
02:19:13 – 02:19:52
And so, like, when you're not around or unavailable, knowing that there's somebody there to literally just respond is like 80% of the value. It's like every day somebody's responding to everybody. Whereas like, if you're just unavailable or you're on vacation or whatever, like, and you have to do all that responding and now it's the thing that's on your head because you know, like people are paying you a good amount of money and if you don't get back to them somewhat timely, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. So I do think that you could possibly play the game Aaron's talking about of, like, you have a much lower level person who's aggregating things, responding, and then you hire a software developer who's doing just pure software developer.
Ian
02:19:52 – 02:19:52
Like, you kinda
Caleb
02:19:52 – 02:19:57
have to really responding thing is, like, small enough potatoes, I think, that it could just be lumped into the
Aaron
02:19:58 – 02:19:58
Right.
Caleb
02:19:58 – 02:19:59
If we're talking to developer role
Aaron
02:19:59 – 02:20:00
anyway, you know? The
Ian
02:20:00 – 02:20:05
the one person who doesn't know developer. Yeah. If you can find the right dev It's quality.
Caleb
02:20:05 – 02:20:05
Like, I
Ian
02:20:05 – 02:20:09
always like to hire the more entrepreneurial type devs generally, but it's
Aaron
02:20:09 – 02:20:11
like They all left
Ian
02:20:11 – 02:20:12
because I have. Idea. It's like
Caleb
02:20:13 – 02:20:13
I was
Aaron
02:20:13 – 02:20:13
working a
Caleb
02:20:13 – 02:20:16
hundred years. You have no employees anymore.
Ian
02:20:16 – 02:20:22
What are you talking about? They all they all let we're here Eric and Chris, we're here ten years. How long do you want people to work for you?
Aaron
02:20:22 – 02:20:23
We're here ten years. Where
Ian
02:20:24 – 02:20:27
Where are they now? They only worked there a decade.
Caleb
02:20:27 – 02:20:33
Yeah. Ian, nothing, obviously, nothing but respect for for you. Of course. Nothing gonna fly.
Ian
02:20:33 – 02:20:35
Taylor's sucking up everybody.
Caleb
02:20:35 – 02:20:36
Yeah. Then,
Ian
02:20:36 – 02:20:37
no way.
Caleb
02:20:37 – 02:20:37
Well, Eric
Ian
02:20:37 – 02:20:50
didn't go to Taylor and Kristen go directly to Taylor. So, I don't know. Yeah. I think one person also is nicer because like you're just putting your toe in here and like two people is twice as much of everything to kind of
Caleb
02:20:50 – 02:20:50
last year.
Aaron
02:20:50 – 02:20:52
That's twice as much. So
Ian
02:20:52 – 02:20:55
that is kind of nice in that way.
Caleb
02:20:55 – 02:21:02
Yep. Alright. Well, good. I mean, the so the next mostly technical will be on how to hire somebody and what to, you know
Aaron
02:21:02 – 02:21:02
There we go.
Ian
02:21:02 – 02:21:03
You know? We could do that.
Caleb
02:21:03 – 02:21:04
Hostile takeover.
Ian
02:21:04 – 02:21:06
What else is on your list there? Any guy other stuff?
Caleb
02:21:07 – 02:21:09
No. That's just the one thing. Oh, shit.
Ian
02:21:11 – 02:21:16
No. It's Aaron's got his car's running. I I he's got to turn his car on. That's gonna be funny.
Caleb
02:21:17 – 02:21:21
So Yeah. We I mean, I don't know. I feel good. You guys probably gotta pee. We I don't should we you know?
Caleb
02:21:22 – 02:21:23
What would we make
Ian
02:21:23 – 02:21:24
make this an all day launch thing?
Aaron
02:21:24 – 02:21:27
Yeah. Give us a vibes vibes wrap up.
Caleb
02:21:28 – 02:21:31
Alright. Well, first give you the number wrap up privately. K?
Aaron
02:21:31 – 02:21:35
This is great. I love I love being part of a secret.
Aaron
02:21:35 – 02:21:36
Yeah.
Aaron
02:21:36 – 02:21:36
Did you send it?
Caleb
02:21:36 – 02:21:38
I didn't get it. Oh, there you go.
Ian
02:21:38 – 02:21:40
It's looking good.
Caleb
02:21:40 – 02:21:48
That's pretty good. That's looking good. Hanging out on a live stream with a couple fellas and just, you know
Ian
02:21:49 – 02:21:49
Shooting the breeze.
Caleb
02:21:49 – 02:22:07
Grabbing yeah. And and having that be the the end, number is pretty cool for me. So the vibes are good. Thank you everybody for to being just the best community ever and supporting this whole little machine. This this, like, you know, this this airplane that's all kinda glued together and it's rickety.
Caleb
02:22:07 – 02:22:18
It's like, it's like taking flight a little bit, because of get off. You know, it's still got, like, bubble gum on it and everything, but we're trying our hardest. And, yeah. So I don't know. And and whatever.
Caleb
02:22:18 – 02:22:29
This is, this is my acceptance speech. Thank you, Ian, for you know? Thank you, Aaron, and thank you, everybody who's just the best. But, yeah. So I feel good about it.
Caleb
02:22:29 – 02:22:34
Let's let's just do a numbers recap. We got a 25 people on the FluxUI.dev. So
Aaron
02:22:34 – 02:22:35
That's great.
Caleb
02:22:35 – 02:22:36
It's yeah. They're still
Ian
02:22:36 – 02:22:37
on there.
Caleb
02:22:37 – 02:22:48
They're still on there. It's slowing down. This is how the launch situation goes. Let's check-in on the conversion for the open rate, is 21.7%. We went up a few percentage points.
Caleb
02:22:48 – 02:22:49
We're slowing.
Ian
02:22:49 – 02:22:53
Do the resend. Do the resend to the people who didn't open tonight, tomorrow.
Caleb
02:22:53 – 02:22:55
Yeah. Really? That quick? I don't know. Yeah.
Caleb
02:22:55 – 02:22:55
I'm gonna
Ian
02:22:55 – 02:23:00
think resend of you didn't open at all, like, maybe. I don't know. Aaron's the the
Caleb
02:23:00 – 02:23:01
guru on the side.
Aaron
02:23:01 – 02:23:04
Wait a little longer. I'm no guru. You guys wait wait longer than that. Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb
02:23:04 – 02:23:11
I think I'm gonna do Wednesday. You know? Yeah. Let me launch a thing, take care of it for two days, and then go to Rails world. And Mhmm.
Caleb
02:23:11 – 02:23:18
You know? Yeah. So those those are the numbers. The error is still like, the whole thing is up. Okay.
Caleb
02:23:18 – 02:23:22
This is the value of this call right here. Mhmm. It's scaling up
Aaron
02:23:22 – 02:23:23
your droplet.
Ian
02:23:23 – 02:23:25
Yes. I do hear that.
Caleb
02:23:25 – 02:23:28
I'm not sure I would have done that very smart thing.
Aaron
02:23:29 – 02:23:29
Yeah.
Caleb
02:23:29 – 02:23:34
If not for you guys being, like, the idiot freaking scale it up and take
Ian
02:23:34 – 02:23:38
at the problem. You can just throw money at it and be the problem is solved.
Caleb
02:23:38 – 02:23:44
That's You know what's my new mantra, Ian? It's a write off for you. My new mantra is just do the thing this oh, here we go, Aaron. Get ready.
Aaron
02:23:44 – 02:23:45
The this is your concern.
Caleb
02:23:46 – 02:23:54
Yeah. Come on. It's not gonna be punchy at all. Like, just, like, do the thing everybody else does. You know?
Ian
02:23:54 – 02:23:56
Yes. Right. Just take
Aaron
02:23:56 – 02:23:57
advice. The
Caleb
02:23:57 – 02:24:04
cow path. Like, just do the thing that everybody else Every oh, the the already.
Ian
02:24:05 – 02:24:06
The server's acalon team,
Caleb
02:24:06 – 02:24:07
I could
Ian
02:24:07 – 02:24:17
go in as the owner of the trademark. I could go in and optimize the code, or I could just throw some money at it. And for $5, the problem is solved.
Caleb
02:24:17 – 02:24:30
Buy the bigger server. Hire the employee. Don't customize the hiring process. Don't customize the role. Hire predictable roles, make predictable products in predictable markets, and just do the things that are obvious to be done and don't get clever.
Aaron
02:24:31 – 02:24:33
Say the catchphrase again. Say the catchphrase again.
Caleb
02:24:34 – 02:24:44
Do all the things. Don't do anything. Do everything. Do the things that everybody does. Jump off the cliff when somebody else jumps off the cliff
Aaron
02:24:44 – 02:24:45
Yes.
Caleb
02:24:45 – 02:24:47
The bridge. There is. So much of this
Aaron
02:24:47 – 02:24:48
is just right. So it's
Aaron
02:24:48 – 02:24:48
really good.
Caleb
02:24:48 – 02:24:49
Inventing things.
Ian
02:24:50 – 02:24:56
Right? Just like you said the other day, you gotta fish where the other boats are. Right? Like, that's the thing. Fish where the other boats are.
Ian
02:24:56 – 02:24:57
That's right. It's where the fish are.
Caleb
02:24:57 – 02:25:02
Boats are. It's true. That's what it is. Just tooth Just
Ian
02:25:02 – 02:25:03
do the thing.
Aaron
02:25:03 – 02:25:04
Do the thing.
Caleb
02:25:04 – 02:25:10
Do what everybody else does. Okay. Here's the new TM. You can just do the invent things. There you
Ian
02:25:10 – 02:25:11
go. Like everybody else does.
Aaron
02:25:11 – 02:25:11
You can
Caleb
02:25:11 – 02:25:14
stop it now. Stop inventing things.
Ian
02:25:14 – 02:25:17
Yes. Don't even don't worry about not invented here. Yes.
Caleb
02:25:17 – 02:25:19
Stop inventing things.
Ian
02:25:19 – 02:25:20
Just It's
Aaron
02:25:20 – 02:25:21
good. Awesome.
Caleb
02:25:21 – 02:25:23
We messaged up 15 jobs. We don't
Aaron
02:25:23 – 02:25:25
have inventing them. Stop
Caleb
02:25:25 – 02:25:32
inventing them. Is to just like, oh, we'll rethink this. We'll do this different. It's gonna be so cool, and it's gonna work and, like, oh, yeah. You know?
Caleb
02:25:33 – 02:25:35
No. It's like do
Ian
02:25:37 – 02:25:38
Just do it. Just do the thing.
Caleb
02:25:39 – 02:25:44
You're getting such a kick out of this? Oh my gosh. This is time to side off. Right? It's time.
Aaron
02:25:44 – 02:25:45
You know?
Ian
02:25:45 – 02:25:48
There's a whole interesting side path here that would be very interesting, but it's like,
Caleb
02:25:48 – 02:25:49
a whole interesting what?
Ian
02:25:49 – 02:26:01
Next like, a whole interesting path off this about, like, businesses and distribution and what you're actually buying and what you're actually selling. So I'll leave the viewer with that to think about. But there's a lot here about, like, what you're actually selling Part two.
Aaron
02:26:01 – 02:26:04
Bring bring us home, Caleb. Give us give us a one final pitch.
Ian
02:26:05 – 02:26:07
Go? What should they do?
Caleb
02:26:07 – 02:26:08
I'm gonna wreck this.
Aaron
02:26:08 – 02:26:09
I know.
Caleb
02:26:10 – 02:26:28
But Flux is a UI component library for Livewire apps. It's It's accessible. It's robust. I thought about it really hard and worked on it a long time, and it's cool, and you'll be better looking, and it rhymes with the f word, and it's at fluxui.dev. Go buy today or That's all.
Aaron
02:26:28 – 02:26:30
There's a successful stream. Good
Caleb
02:26:30 – 02:26:31
job, team.
Ian
02:26:31 – 02:26:34
Thanks for coming on. Alright. Thanks, guys.
Aaron
02:26:34 – 02:26:35
See you later.
Ian
02:26:35 – 02:26:36
Thanks, everybody.
Caleb
02:26:36 – 02:26:38
Thanks for being my adopted podcast.
Me

Thanks for reading! My name is Aaron and I write, make videos, and generally try really hard.

If you ever have any questions or want to chat, I'm always on Twitter.

You can find me on YouTube on my personal channel or the Try Hard Studios channel.

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