Sean Has Known All Along

January 18, 2022

It's starting to work, but Sean always knew it was going to.
Learn more →

Transcript

Aaron
00:00:01 – 00:00:07
And we're live well, and we're recording, which is different from being live. So true. Hello friends.
Sean
00:00:07 – 00:00:08
Hello.
Aaron
00:00:09 – 00:00:10
How's it going today?
Sean
00:00:11 – 00:00:14
Good. Sean, how's your lunch?
Colleen
00:00:16 – 00:00:20
Sorry. I have to definitely mute while I'm eating because I know it drives Aaron bananas.
Aaron
00:00:21 – 00:00:29
It does. Mouth noises, not just not just Sean eating in general. Just universally, mouth noises drive me crazy.
Colleen
00:00:29 – 00:00:35
I think there's a there's actually a there's a name for this. I've heard of this before. Whatever. It doesn't matter.
Aaron
00:00:36 – 00:00:45
Yeah. That's going to look it up too, but it also doesn't matter. So what's going on? Anybody? Whoever wants to go first.
Sean
00:00:45 – 00:00:49
Why don't you go first, Aaron? You have the most exciting stuff, I think.
Aaron
00:00:49 – 00:01:13
Okay. Well, last week was a great week for team Hammerstone. So let's see. Last week, I gave a demo to the owner of a Laravel Agency. I gave him a demo of refine and he just loved it.
Aaron
00:01:13 – 00:01:42
He said it was great. Very thrilled about it, reached out to his team in Slack and told them, he was like, hey, I'm talking to the hammer stone guy, which was like, oh, cool. I like how that sounds. And several of them, have either listened to this podcast or listened to software social or had seen it on Twitter already. And I was like, man, that's really great.
Aaron
00:01:42 – 00:02:09
That means our whole strategy is working. And, actually, one of the things he said was, that everything that we're, like, putting out is very high quality, and that speaks like, that represents us very well to the community. And so, you know, this has been our plan since, like, a year or 2 ago. And to hear someone say, oh, wow. Your plan is working.
Aaron
00:02:09 – 00:02:48
You know, not him not knowing it was our plan. That's really encouraging. So super pumped about that. And in fact, one of their clients that they're working on right now has a use for Refine, and so we added them to our Slack. So we've got, added this guy to our Slack, gave him a license to see if it's gonna work for them, And we have like this basically internal advocate at this agency who and then I gave that guy a demo as well, who really likes the product and is excited about it and wants to use it.
Aaron
00:02:48 – 00:03:21
And so that was pretty exciting and made me feel good about, you know, cause we've talked about agencies being a traction channel made me feel really good about that. So yeah, that was super exciting. One thing last week, I'm trying to think, there was something else that happened last week. I guess we got we got Neil going. So our number one our number one client has gotten it integrated into his app.
Aaron
00:03:21 – 00:03:43
Sean and I met with him, I think, last week, before we had work and got it integrated into his app, and he said, holy shit balls, boys. This is amazing. So I was I was pretty excited about that. We've got Neil using it. We've got Keith using it.
Aaron
00:03:43 – 00:04:07
We've got this guy at the agency who's testing it out and seeing if they'll be able to use it. Their client is a nonprofit. That raised some interesting pricing questions that we can talk about, but, we'll see if they're gonna use it. So I feel like we're executing on the plan and making some progress here. Does it feel that way to you guys?
Sean
00:04:07 – 00:04:16
Yeah. Are you done supporting Neil? Are you kind of what's how what's the off ramp there for that consulting ish arrangement?
Aaron
00:04:17 – 00:04:19
No off ramp in sight yet.
Sean
00:04:19 – 00:04:19
Okay.
Aaron
00:04:19 – 00:04:45
We honestly haven't had to do too much support. He's run into a couple of bugs. But beyond that, he's very much, like I think he's a self taught developer as of recently, and he's incredibly talented. He just kinda figures stuff out on his own. And so one of the things Sean was saying was, you know, how do you want to, like, modify these components?
Aaron
00:04:45 – 00:05:02
And he was like, I just want the components myself. I just wanna eject from your system and build my own components. I was like, great. Okay. So I haven't had to do a whole lot, but I don't anticipate any sort of off ramp, but that's because there hasn't been a lot to do.
Aaron
00:05:02 – 00:05:03
So I don't know.
Sean
00:05:04 – 00:05:22
I guess my question was more, once you put the the time in to help him get set up, outside of the little bugs here or there, are you finding that he comes back to you frequently? Like, are there holes in our documentation or his understanding, or has it been pretty smooth sailing?
Aaron
00:05:23 – 00:06:01
I think a little bit too soon to tell. However, one thing that he has mentioned that is a hole in the product is sorting. So we handle querying and binding users' intent to the query, but we don't handle sorting and binding users' intent, on sorting to the query. And I think that's a good, like, I think that's an obvious thing that should be included within our scope. But, yeah, that was one hole that was in the product that he looked at was like, I would like to have this, please.
Aaron
00:06:02 – 00:06:04
So, yeah, does that answer the question better?
Sean
00:06:04 – 00:06:04
Yeah.
Aaron
00:06:06 – 00:06:10
But I I know that there are still holes in the docs, but he hasn't said anything about him yet.
Sean
00:06:11 – 00:06:17
Yeah. I'm just saying, like, generally speaking, you were able to get him integrated, and he's off to the races.
Aaron
00:06:18 – 00:06:28
Yeah. Seemingly. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a good a good sign, given that time is finite, you know, philosophically.
Sean
00:06:29 – 00:06:29
So, yeah.
Aaron
00:06:29 – 00:06:30
Heather Malyuk:
Sean
00:06:30 – 00:06:34
Awesome. That's really that's really great. Seems like great news.
Aaron
00:06:34 – 00:06:38
I know. Feels like great news. Feels super exciting. Feels like progress.
Sean
00:06:40 – 00:06:47
Oh, yeah. I only had 2 cups of coffee today. I don't know why I do that to myself. I should just commit to my 3 cups of coffee. But today, I was like, I should just have 2.
Sean
00:06:48 – 00:06:49
That was No.
Colleen
00:06:49 – 00:06:52
So I just bought a Zojirushi hot water heater thing.
Aaron
00:06:52 – 00:06:53
You know
Colleen
00:06:53 – 00:06:53
what that is?
Aaron
00:06:53 – 00:06:54
I don't
Sean
00:06:54 – 00:06:54
know what
Aaron
00:06:54 – 00:06:56
that is. So
Colleen
00:06:57 – 00:07:16
okay. So we use an AeroPress to make coffee, which I recommend. There there's 2 things that we've done to make our coffee that's significantly improved the flavor, and I would have never guessed. 1 is using this AeroPress thing, and the other is a a burr grinder. I I just bought it because I needed a new grinder and it was the one recommended on a wire cutter.
Colleen
00:07:16 – 00:07:35
And I used it and I was like, woah, my coffee tastes way better. I mean, I didn't even know that was gonna be a side effect of it, because not a coffee snob, not a coffee snob at all. But the AeroPress thing is it's nice. Both of these things have the side effect of you can have better tasting coffee. But the primary reason that I do the AeroPress is because I could make them on demand.
Colleen
00:07:35 – 00:07:50
You know, I don't have to do, like, the whole make a whole pot of coffee Mhmm. Yada yada. Right. So I had Madigan another tool to that, setup, which will continue to let me to make them on demand. Because I'm not doing a coffee pot, I was heating up water in a tea kettle on the stove.
Colleen
00:07:50 – 00:07:56
And so in order to make a pot of coffee or I mean, a cup of coffee, I would have to go heat up this thing and then make my cup.
Aaron
00:07:56 – 00:07:58
Say the say the name again slowly.
Colleen
00:07:59 – 00:08:00
Zojirushi.
Aaron
00:08:02 – 00:08:04
That's not gonna help. Zoji
Colleen
00:08:05 – 00:08:11
r u s h I. Z o j I r u s h I.
Aaron
00:08:11 – 00:08:16
J I hot water. There we go.
Colleen
00:08:16 – 00:08:19
So Zojirushi makes bunch of coffee stuff and tea stuff.
Aaron
00:08:19 – 00:08:19
Okay.
Colleen
00:08:20 – 00:08:27
So they have these Cool. Hot water dispensers. You just fill them up. It's a bunch of water in there. It keeps it right at, like, coffee making temperature continuously.
Colleen
00:08:28 – 00:08:42
So now I have this set up. I just walk in my counter, full counter devoted to coffee. It's got the coffee beans in the grinder. It's got the Aeropress. It's got the Zojirushi thing, and I just walk up the so, Colleen, in conclusion, all of that is to say, I also had 3 cups of coffee today.
Colleen
00:08:42 – 00:08:49
Normally, I would have 2, but I was so excited about my new setup. I was I could just walk up here and get coffee right now. I'm gonna do it.
Aaron
00:08:49 – 00:08:53
That's amazing. Trouble. That's amazing.
Colleen
00:08:55 – 00:08:57
Yeah. It's it's probably not it's probably not great.
Aaron
00:08:58 – 00:09:11
One other thing before we move on to someone else. One other thing that happened this weekend is so are y'all familiar with inertia at all? Have you heard of inertia? I heard
Sean
00:09:11 – 00:09:12
you tweeting about it.
Colleen
00:09:12 – 00:09:13
Know what it
Aaron
00:09:13 – 00:09:31
is. Okay. Perfect. It's, it is how's the best way to describe it? It's like an adapter that sits between, Vue and Laravel or React and Rails or Svelte and, basically, any front end and any back end.
Aaron
00:09:32 – 00:10:05
And it gives you single page application features without the pain of single page app stuff. So it handles it handles a lot of it for you. So you get to still use normal Laravel stuff and still use normal Vue JS stuff, and then inertia sits in the middle and, like, translates everything for you. Anyway, just recently they announced server side rendering, which is kind of a big deal. And I had worked on using sidecar for server side rendering.
Aaron
00:10:05 – 00:10:46
I had worked on that in, like, March or April, which is kinda where sidecar got, like, solidified. They finally released it this weekend or, I guess, on Friday. And so this weekend, I spent some time, like, polishing up the implementation that I had worked on and publishing some posts. And so I put out some stuff about using Sidecar as your inertia, server side rendering engine, and they did very, very well. And so it was one of those things that I had worked on a long time ago and then put down, and just kinda let it sit.
Aaron
00:10:47 – 00:11:14
And now that they've announced it, I picked it back up, cleaned it up a little bit, and published it. And it's doing very well both for, like, on Twitter, but also in terms of getting people to start using Sidecar, which is great. And it also ties into my Laracon talk, so I can talk about this at Laracon as well. So it's all kind of it's all kind of coming together in a nice way. So I was very encouraged about that as well.
Colleen
00:11:14 – 00:11:17
It's awesome. You're so good at, like, stacking these bricks like that.
Aaron
00:11:18 – 00:11:42
Yeah. I do feel kind of like that's a that's a good metaphor for what it is because it's it's all in the same universe, and it's starting to like, the connections are starting to get stronger, and I feel like that's a really good a really good thing for us. So happy to see them release it and happy that my posts and, repos about it were getting some traction.
Sean
00:11:42 – 00:11:44
Yeah. That's great.
Aaron
00:11:44 – 00:11:50
Okay. That's all the updates I have. I have a couple other things to talk about, but that's all the updates I have. Cool.
Colleen
00:11:50 – 00:12:02
I guess I'll go. So because it kind of flows from your stuff. So the agency person that you talked to connected us with their developer. I've been talking to him. I'm gonna talk with him, like, separately in a a meeting.
Colleen
00:12:02 – 00:12:32
We're gonna go through the code. But in conclusion, they need a they they need it to be running in Vue 3 and we're running in Vue 2. So that sent me down a rabbit hole, but good one, I think of, getting our library set up so that it can be both Vue 2 and Vue 3. Few ways to go about that. Mostly, I think the bigger projects end up just having a branch, one for Vue 2 and one for view Vue 3.
Aaron
00:12:32 – 00:12:32
Mhmm.
Colleen
00:12:33 – 00:13:07
I don't wanna do that because, like, I don't know how long we're gonna be supporting Vue 2, but probably for a while. And we don't really have, like, the bandwidth to, like, properly maintain 2 branches. So I decided to, like, try really hard to see if we could build it for both with the same repo. So I ended up discovering this thing called Vue Demi. So basically, what you do is you you grab this package and then you import all your stuff from Vue Demi where you would be importing from Vue Composition API or from Vue.
Colleen
00:13:08 – 00:14:09
And then, if you're in Vue 3, and you import from this thing and then it sits in the middle. And then depending on your users' environment, will decide whether it's going to pull from Vue Composition API or Vue. So that does mean that we are sending along another dependency, but that's a worthy dependency, I think for us to have the ability to support view 2 and view 3 and it's not a big dependency And it will go away over time. So so so far that works really well for the non single file components. So single file components, which I have some because I like writing templates, those those use different compiling engines for Vue 2 and Vue 3, and they have different and there are also a few sort of like like V model works a little bit differently.
Colleen
00:14:10 – 00:14:14
Events work a little differently in Vue 3 versus Vue 2.
Sean
00:14:15 – 00:14:15
There
Colleen
00:14:15 – 00:14:30
was something else something else, but I think so basically, we're ended up with this, the all the stuff that's not single file components. I got that working. I also got the Vue 2 build working. Oh, I ended up completely redoing our build steps. So it's it's roll up.
Colleen
00:14:31 – 00:14:37
It's now we have, like in our workspace, we have the yeah. You're laughing because it's like take 3.
Aaron
00:14:37 – 00:14:39
Yeah. Seriously. But
Colleen
00:14:40 – 00:15:03
so now what we have is 1 monorepo with 2. So as a developer, when I'm working on this, I wanna be able to just run it and, like, see my changes, like, as I'm working on it. And so, like, let's say I have a bug in Vue 2. I need to go debug it while running Vue 2. So I need an environment to run the app in Vue 2.
Colleen
00:15:03 – 00:15:27
I also need an environment to run it in Vue 3. And I'm like, hey, if I'm running this thing in Vue 3, at this point, I might as well get Vite, which is the way I've decided to pronounce that because I've heard it pronounced that way the most, v I t e. So Vite is awesome. And I think, you know, eventually we'll swap it out entirely for roll up. But since I'm in since I'm getting Vue 3 up and running, I'm like, okay.
Colleen
00:15:27 – 00:15:46
I'm just gonna use Vite for that. So I'm getting a Vite development environment set up. So I've got this monorepo with 2 3 yarn workspaces. 1 is the library, 1 is the vue 2 environment, 1 is the vue 3 environment. And then there will also be tests that will run under the vue 2 mode and tests that will run under vue 3 modes.
Colleen
00:15:46 – 00:16:07
Because that basically, I gotta set this up so far. We're in this in between world with the rest of the Vue community, so I feel everybody's paying on this. Then we'll be able to run tests on both of them. That way, we can feel confident when we make changes that, you know, at at least what our tests cover is working in both vue 2 and vue 3. So I got really close.
Colleen
00:16:07 – 00:16:27
So, basically, where that's at is yeah. All the Vudemmy stuff is working, the library builds, the Vue 2 client. So there's a whole rabbit hole. I won't go into the technical details of this, but again, I was trying to use Vuecly. And again, it's not it's not working for because I want to yarn basically, a workspace is like yarn linking.
Colleen
00:16:27 – 00:16:52
Right? So, like, in the repository. So I didn't want to this this thing needs to refer to my build, like, in by in my repo that I'm working on. And it just doesn't like, the we also have this requirement where well, we were so Vue 2, we were initially gonna build for IE 11. Right?
Colleen
00:16:52 – 00:17:05
Like, we're gonna support that. And then I decided that's ridiculous because the package size of this thing is huge and, like, who's using that anymore? Like, we can do that if we need to. But for now, let's not do that, and it just reduces the complexity of the whole build stuff. So tada.
Colleen
00:17:05 – 00:17:26
We're not supporting IE 11 anymore. And, you know, we will if it pops up and we decide that that makes sense for us business wise. So okay. Great. So now but now when I feed it to viewClay, viewClay, does not know how to interpret the, you know, conditional chaining operator or the spread operator or whatever.
Colleen
00:17:26 – 00:17:44
Because it has this old, like, compiler that it uses for the bundle step called Acorn, and it doesn't, like, recognize that stuff. Okay. Fine. So you can tell vue cli to run it through the, you could say, hey. Take my dependency and run it through your, babble, basically.
Colleen
00:17:44 – 00:17:52
And that's what I did before to get it to work in Vuecly. I was like, hey. I'm building for this. Run my dependency through VueClient. Done.
Colleen
00:17:52 – 00:18:04
Can't do it when you yarn when you have it in your own workspace. It doesn't it doesn't work. There's probably some way to hack it together to work. But anyway so once again, giving up on VueClient, just gonna go back to my old roll up, like, dev config thing. There.
Colleen
00:18:04 – 00:18:13
So that'll work with Vue 2. So in in conclusion, the build step works for Vue 2. That works. I just have to do this roll up thing. Then in Vue 3, it's not working yet.
Colleen
00:18:13 – 00:18:27
And so I'm I'm like, I've made the changes. It's doing the multiple view thing again. That's come up again. And I woke up this morning and I think I know why, but I'm real close. I'm, like, real close.
Colleen
00:18:27 – 00:18:41
And if we get this set up, like, at this point, I would say it's 95% this is gonna work. 5% that I can't figure it out. But if I can get it to work this way, this is so much than us maintaining multiple branches that it was worth. Absolutely. Yeah.
Colleen
00:18:42 – 00:19:05
If if it fails, if it's not possible, cause there's still a few things where I'm like, I'm pretty sure this is gonna work. Not sure. But there's probably a few things I don't know I don't know yet. So if it turns out it wasn't it's not possible, I'll just we'll just eat it, but it seems like it was worth it. But, yes, I was up till, like, 1 AM a couple times this weekend trying to, like, get this done as fast as possible for Monday.
Colleen
00:19:05 – 00:19:26
So that way I could move on. Because also we're bringing on Jeff to help with the view the view stuff to take some of that off my plate so I can get back to the marketing stuff. And I wanted to have him set up for that. So that way I could just, you know, let him let him go to town. And this other this guy, this developer that I'm gonna be talking to, he might actually be interested in helping me just take this over the finish line.
Colleen
00:19:26 – 00:19:42
I don't know what his time commitment is, but just depends. This also may be, like, way too complicated for me to just hand off to somebody who wants to help us for free. So Yeah. But yeah. But that's where I'm at with the Vue stuff, which is great.
Colleen
00:19:42 – 00:19:54
And then the the marketing stuff is it was just on hold while I was doing that, but that's coming along. I really like what we've got shaping up there.
Aaron
00:19:54 – 00:20:10
The fact that we're pretty close to a Vue 3 repo is kind of amazing to me. I didn't I mean, I knew using composition would help. I didn't realize it was gonna be potentially, you know, universal build. That seems huge.
Colleen
00:20:12 – 00:20:25
Yeah. I right. I think it it will be really helpful to us to have to have this because it's gonna be you know, I'd imagine we're doing this for the next 2 years at least, like, supporting the Vue 2 thing. So Yeah. That will be good.
Colleen
00:20:25 – 00:20:35
Either that or will just be like a pain in our ass for the next 2 years. I don't I don't know. We'll find out. I'm trying to make that less of a pain, though. You know what I mean?
Aaron
00:20:35 – 00:21:11
Yeah. Getting the surrounding infrastructure all set up, is hugely important and extremely frustrating. Like, no matter I I feel like no matter what the project is, I just wanna be writing the project code, but you're talking about building and yarn spaces and, like, getting the testing framework all set up. All of that stuff is really annoying and really frustrating. But if you don't get it set up properly, you move so slowly because you you're constantly doing stuff manually that takes forever.
Aaron
00:21:11 – 00:21:12
Yeah.
Colleen
00:21:12 – 00:21:29
So I didn't wanna spend any time on it at all. That's why I picked Vue CLI to begin with because it has this whole build thing, and you can just, boop, build a library. Same thing with with Vite and that, like, they have a Vue 3. There's a similar setup, basically. But we just are too weird, I guess.
Colleen
00:21:30 – 00:21:45
I I don't know. It was it's very frustrating to spend any time on it at all. It's, like, not helpful to the business. It's not important. I mean, it's it's important I have to do it, but it's, like, so far away from actual, like, business stuff that will move the needle for us, that it's frustrating.
Colleen
00:21:45 – 00:21:47
I I hate spending my time on it.
Aaron
00:21:48 – 00:22:05
Yeah. Also, on testing, Dave was talking about having, like, a universal test runner that would test React and Vue 2 and, presumably, Vue 3. That seemed incredibly cool. Yeah.
Colleen
00:22:05 – 00:22:05
We're gonna We
Aaron
00:22:05 – 00:22:08
haven't had a chance to talk about it yet, but it looks amazing.
Colleen
00:22:09 – 00:22:37
Yeah. He wants to do more like end to end tests. So it'll be part of our test suite that'll do that, which it will be the most important part. Because I I personally think that those are the most important to write and give you the most actual coverage. So we'll have, like, a monorepo with the React and Vue 2 and Vue 3 libraries, and then it'll run this this test suite, which will execute all of them.
Colleen
00:22:37 – 00:22:42
So so because, like, if it's end to end, that means it's basically just load the whole app up and then click on it.
Aaron
00:22:42 – 00:22:43
Right.
Colleen
00:22:43 – 00:22:52
It's click testing. So I don't know exactly how we're gonna how he's gonna set it up. If it'll be I mean, it should work. Like, you should be able to load it. Like, Capybara.
Colleen
00:22:52 – 00:23:01
Right? Like, it doesn't care whether you have React or whatever loaded. You just load it up into a headless browser and then Mhmm. Click, click, click. So, yeah, it'll be pretty great.
Aaron
00:23:03 – 00:23:11
Yeah. That's gonna be amazing. So you're talking with the agency guy later about Vue 3? Yep. Thanks.
Aaron
00:23:13 – 00:23:34
Yeah. I spent a while talking to him partially about refine and partially about other nerdy stuff, but he's great. I think, you know, if this works out for his client, which I really hope it does, it's gonna be amazing because he's very sharp and gonna be fun to have around. So hopefully it'll work out.
Colleen
00:23:35 – 00:23:35
Cool.
Aaron
00:23:36 – 00:23:38
Yeah. Colleen?
Sean
00:23:38 – 00:23:57
Oh, yep. So tomorrow, I'm meeting with, someone who reached out in the rails world who's interested in the rails component. So we'll see how that goes. I'm gonna see what he needs, and then I'll make a call on whether we're ready or not. I agree that what we have for Rails is feature complete as advertised.
Sean
00:23:58 – 00:24:06
So, yeah, I just need to see what front end he's using and and what his use case is. But that'll be fun because that'll be the first time I've gotten to do
Aaron
00:24:06 – 00:24:07
that. Amazing.
Sean
00:24:07 – 00:24:10
Yeah. So I'll let you guys know how that goes.
Aaron
00:24:11 – 00:24:15
And Filo's ready to distribute private, Ruby Gems.
Sean
00:24:15 – 00:24:23
I saw that. Is he ready to do that, or was he working on that? I didn't follow everything he was saying. I I didn't read everything.
Aaron
00:24:24 – 00:24:28
I think I saw in I can actually check. You know, we I bet you he'll be
Colleen
00:24:28 – 00:24:30
ready before we're ready with our jam.
Sean
00:24:31 – 00:24:43
Yeah. So I think Probably I feel like he said he he mentioned that that he was really close or he was almost ready to distribute. Unlock that s h. Right? Yeah.
Aaron
00:24:43 – 00:24:54
Yeah. It's not in the public UI. Got it. So he might not have merged it in yet. But, I did see a screenshot somewhere of Ruby Gems as a beta.
Aaron
00:24:55 – 00:25:01
But regardless, he's got it He's got it, queued up. So we'll be ready to do that. Should your person
Sean
00:25:02 – 00:25:03
be ready to
Aaron
00:25:03 – 00:25:04
use it? Yeah.
Sean
00:25:04 – 00:25:06
So that'll be good.
Aaron
00:25:06 – 00:25:12
Do we know anything about this person or their app or anything yet? Just a random Twitter friend?
Sean
00:25:13 – 00:25:13
Mhmm.
Aaron
00:25:14 – 00:25:16
Man. Well, that's exciting.
Sean
00:25:16 – 00:25:17
It is.
Aaron
00:25:18 – 00:25:20
I feel like it's all kind of starting to happen.
Sean
00:25:20 – 00:25:25
Does anyone feel that way? I feel like the next yeah. Absolutely. I do feel that way.
Colleen
00:25:25 – 00:25:49
So I feel like it was happening the whole time. I mean, like, like, I know the timeline was longer than anybody wanted. But the whole time like, it just takes a long time to lay the groundwork for what's happening right now. So I just that's what it that's what it is. Like, if we'd launched the product a year ago, it would have not been to crickets, but would have been to less less than this.
Colleen
00:25:49 – 00:26:12
You know? So like, it is a just a long grind to get to the point where you can do this, and then, hey. People are sitting there ready waiting to buy. And it's it's awesome that we have that because now we can actually have customers and talk to them and use that to shape what we're working on Mhmm. You know, rather than just guessing.
Colleen
00:26:12 – 00:26:39
It's it's really great. Like, this is gonna be a great phase because we're gonna be able to figure out in the next couple months, like, how we make like, the shape of how we're gonna support it, the pricing, like, all this stuff is gonna come out of this and, like, what are the most important features? And it'll end up being a more stable product that's a better fit for our customers over the next few months. It's gonna be great. And then then we have to go past that.
Colleen
00:26:40 – 00:26:58
That's the part where I've never been where it's like, what is our channel that gets us past the people that listen to the podcast? You know? And Aaron Stewart are following. It may be that DevRel is it, and that's what we need. And that word-of-mouth gets us there because word-of-mouth is real is gonna be real important for this.
Colleen
00:26:58 – 00:27:14
Mhmm. So maybe that's it. Maybe we might have to do anything. We'll we'll find out, though. I suspect we'll plateau at at some point, but less than less than more than one of us going full time somewhere.
Colleen
00:27:14 – 00:27:15
That's what I kinda think.
Aaron
00:27:16 – 00:27:20
Less than more than one of us going full time.
Colleen
00:27:21 – 00:27:32
Like, maybe maybe enough for one of us to be full time, and then we'll we'll kind of be plateaued is what I'm saying. But we'll see. Maybe, maybe not.
Aaron
00:27:32 – 00:27:45
Well, Sean has known all along that it's working, but Colleen and I have not oh, I'll speak for myself. I have not. I felt like it was gonna work, but the slog really got to me. So this is
Colleen
00:27:45 – 00:27:56
I have 100% confidence in us plus executing, plus time, equaling whatever the hell kind of business we wanna build.
Aaron
00:27:56 – 00:28:14
Well, that's good to hear. I think I think theoretically I do too, but along the way it's been it's been there have been seasons of doubt for sure. Like, is this gonna work? But now that we're here, I feel I feel pretty good about it.
Sean
00:28:14 – 00:28:19
So, Aaron, are you just taking someone off your list each week? Like, how are you handling that?
Aaron
00:28:19 – 00:28:31
That was the other thing that was the other thing that I wanted to talk about, once we got past updates. That that's an open question. So I think go ahead.
Colleen
00:28:31 – 00:28:45
I I yeah. I have an opinion about this because I just wanna take maybe one more at a time. Initially, I was like, let's just, like, load 5 more people into this. But two two reasons. 1 is, like, okay.
Colleen
00:28:45 – 00:29:00
Jeff is just gonna start, so I need to make sure that he's he's good to go, you know, that he's all set up. And then, so that's work on my end. I need to finish this build thing. That's work on my end. And then I don't know yet.
Colleen
00:29:03 – 00:29:26
I want to be able to jump on the most important thing right away, either me or Jeff. And it's gonna be a little too chaotic if there's more than 1 person at a time for us to do that. You know what I mean? On the other hand, you guys could convince me that this is a this is a mistake. But okay.
Colleen
00:29:26 – 00:29:48
Let me let me just make this concrete with an example. Neil is immediately asking about theming. And I'm presumably, he's making the style sheet work for him. And then he was immediately asking about customizing components, and his choice was to fork the repo. I don't know I don't know, but he's gonna love it when I push this new v 2, v 3 change.
Colleen
00:29:48 – 00:30:18
It's, that would be a fun fun merch for him. But the but that's those are 2 things where I'm like, should those go on my plate right now or sorting? Is that what we should be doing right now? So or should I be doing more docs for the front end? I mean, the front end in terms of how people use it, like, I've not spent time with the docs because it's like we're gonna handle people, and and then there's, like, very few things that they're gonna do with it, mostly.
Colleen
00:30:18 – 00:30:34
Right? Mostly, it's gonna be, like, one liner. Put your data in here, and then it does what you want, and then you just tweak the style sheet. So it looks like it fits in on your on your tailwind site or whatever. So, yeah, I, I, I, I would like, I would like another customer.
Colleen
00:30:34 – 00:30:42
I would like only 1, not a whole bunch yet. Then we can start doing groups in a little bit. How does that sound?
Aaron
00:30:43 – 00:30:45
Colleen, what what are your thoughts on that?
Sean
00:30:45 – 00:31:02
It's fine with me. No strong feelings about that. I'm still kind of over there, like, in client world when you talk about features and stuff. So I have a different opinion on what people are asking for. And by people, I just mean 1 person, one group.
Sean
00:31:02 – 00:31:07
So I think, you know, taking it slow is there's nothing wrong with that. We've come this far.
Aaron
00:31:08 – 00:31:18
We have come this far. That sounds totally fine to me. I'm on board with that. Okay. So I can reach out to one more person.
Aaron
00:31:19 – 00:31:44
You can just pick off the list, somebody who's using Vue 2 in Laravel. So that sounds fine to me. Wrinkle, or perhaps separate issue altogether is the Nova deal. So here here's the complicating factor with Nova. So I have been working on, a Nova package.
Aaron
00:31:45 – 00:32:11
Currently Nova is at major version 3. And it uses obviously Laravel, but it uses view 2 on the front end. So I've been able to just kinda, like, rip out rip apart our current package and just pack it all in, and it works great. There is on the horizon, a Nova major version 4 coming. And I don't know when it's coming, but I know that it's soon.
Aaron
00:32:12 – 00:32:42
And one of the things one of the things that I'm afraid of, and I know we try not to, like, worry too much about doing things quickly. But one of the things I am afraid of is Nova version 4 is probably going to ship with some more feature or, like, some more filtering features. I don't know what exactly. There's no way that it could be as, you know, as intense as what we've built. But I do kind of want to get out ahead of that.
Aaron
00:32:44 – 00:33:17
1, to get hype, and 2, so that when version 4 releases, we already have a little bit of momentum in the Novo world. Right? Because what I don't wanna happen is version 4 releases, they have something that's, like, 75% of the way to what we have, and then we release and everybody's like, you just copied the Laravel team? And it's like, no, we've been working on this for a 1000 years, but we're we released 2 weeks late, you know? So thoughts on that.
Colleen
00:33:19 – 00:33:23
So you know that they're having more filters features in Nova 4?
Aaron
00:33:24 – 00:33:37
I know that they're having more filters, but I don't know I haven't seen a UI. I haven't seen anything. I just know that at one point, he, David Hempel teased, better filtering.
Colleen
00:33:38 – 00:33:41
Like a picture or anything? That's all the data of just like That's it. Better filtering.
Aaron
00:33:41 – 00:33:43
Nope. That's all that's all that I've got.
Colleen
00:33:44 – 00:33:56
I mean, my inclination is to not care. Yeah. It doesn't feel like there's enough information to to really care about that. Like, is it is the juice worth the squeeze? No.
Colleen
00:33:56 – 00:33:59
Because we don't know. Like but
Aaron
00:34:00 – 00:34:02
Well, we don't know, so we don't know.
Colleen
00:34:02 – 00:34:13
Yeah. So is the exactly. Exactly. And if they but see, the thing is they could just reintroduce filtering that's as good as ours, and then they introduce filtering that's as good as ours. Like, what can we do about that?
Colleen
00:34:13 – 00:34:29
Nothing. Like, that's so I don't know. I think what would what would what would be your plan? Like, if if we were gonna try and, like, address this and soften the blow, if there's a blow, what what was what would be your plan?
Aaron
00:34:29 – 00:34:45
I would reach out to the list, but primarily there's one person in my DMs that was asking if it's available for Nova. And I would reach out to that person and say, yes, it's available for Nova. Here's the beta. Come join our Slack. Let's get the Nova thing going.
Colleen
00:34:46 – 00:34:49
Oh, so make that the next customer and then focus on Nova integration?
Aaron
00:34:51 – 00:35:02
I don't know. Yes. Make that the next customer. Perhaps make that a next second customer. So we would do 22 things at once.
Aaron
00:35:02 – 00:35:26
So we would grab the next customer for Laravel vu 2 and simultaneously grab this guy for Nova, because I don't think there's gonna be anything on your plate, Sean, for Nova because it is so rigid, and all Nova apps look the exact same. I don't think there's gonna be any front end stuff. Of course, I could be wrong, but that's my thought.
Colleen
00:35:27 – 00:35:39
Yeah. My guess is you're probably wrong because the customer will will probably want, you know, be like Neil or whatever. Oh, I guess so. They don't have to worry about theming. They don't have to worry about they can't replace any of the components.
Colleen
00:35:39 – 00:35:43
Exactly. If they want sorting, like, okay. Yeah. That's on our list. That's on the road.
Aaron
00:35:43 – 00:35:45
Nova provides sorting. So And
Colleen
00:35:45 – 00:36:13
Nova provides sorting. So, you know, of the things that we know that could be requested, probably not gonna come up. Yeah. So it is like if something does come up, that is a huge pain in the ass for us because we don't know how to go from easily go from my build, my Vue 2 build to works in Nova. But that's something that Jeff and I talked about and kind of like planned a little bit and have like an idea for how we might make that actually work for you.
Colleen
00:36:15 – 00:36:23
So that could be something that Jeff could help with. So I think we could do it. I think we could do it. I think we could do both at the same time. Yeah.
Aaron
00:36:23 – 00:36:48
That would that would be my preference. And a little bit of it is I recognize as, you know, fear of loss aversion or whatever. But I would like to have the nova train going before their major version 4 comes out. And I will say major version 4 is gonna be a big change. And there may be hundreds of people that don't upgrade their version 3 apps to v 4.
Aaron
00:36:48 – 00:37:16
So it may not be it may not be anything other than a perception thing, but I would still like to have a little bit of momentum before they get going, if that makes sense. If only for, honestly, like, public perception. Like, that's I wanna I wanna be able to provide filtering for Nova before they come along and say, look. We have filtering for Nova. And I think that for some reason, that's important to me.
Aaron
00:37:16 – 00:37:16
Okay.
Colleen
00:37:16 – 00:37:27
I mean, yeah. I trust your sense on, like, whether that's gonna resonate with your audience and be, you know, useful work for us. Yeah. Sounds good.
Aaron
00:37:27 – 00:37:36
Okay. So maybe you and I will talk offline about what you and Jeff talked about. Sure. Just in terms of the technical details so we don't bore everyone, but it's kind
Colleen
00:37:36 – 00:37:38
of too late. I already did that.
Aaron
00:37:40 – 00:37:43
Colleen, did you have any thoughts about Nova or anything like that?
Sean
00:37:43 – 00:37:51
No. Nope. The burden of that falls on you guys. So, of course, I'm gonna say, yeah, you should do it. But you guys have to decide if you can do that or not.
Aaron
00:37:51 – 00:38:00
Okay. Cool. Alright. Well, Sean, we'll talk later. So the original question was what's the next step?
Aaron
00:38:00 – 00:38:17
So the next steps are, I will reach out to somebody about a standard Laravel v two. Sean and I will talk about Nova, and then I'll reach out to the guy who asked me about Nova, and I'll tell him, yes. It's ready. Also, of course, Neil. Neil uses Nova.
Aaron
00:38:18 – 00:38:26
He uses, Nova on the back end, so we can tell Neil he can start using the Nova package as well. I forgot about that.
Colleen
00:38:28 – 00:38:39
Okay. Cool. Yeah. So, I guess one other thing I wanna bring up is the pace that I am currently maintaining is not sustainable. Like, my energy is fine.
Colleen
00:38:39 – 00:39:09
That's not the issue. It is that it is a deliberate, calculated with conversations with Beth, sacrifice of family time at the moment for me to do this. And the plan is to do it up through Laracon and probably, like, the, you know, the week after, week or 2 after or something like that. Like, Beth is adding extra time to go pick up Isaac when I would normally be doing that and giving me that time back. And, like, I'm doing work on weekends and not hanging out with either of them.
Colleen
00:39:09 – 00:39:29
And same thing on, you know, nights. Although, conveniently inconveniently, but conveniently in this case, Beth had a COVID exposure and Isaac School has this rule where she has to, like, wear a mask all the time in the house. And she, like, lives in the basement, basically. So she's essentially, like, isolating herself from me. It's not like I would've been hanging out with her anyway.
Colleen
00:39:30 – 00:39:34
So I'm just upstairs and, like, well, I might as well do work. That's a
Aaron
00:39:35 – 00:39:38
So what you're saying is her loss is our gain, basically.
Colleen
00:39:39 – 00:39:59
Yeah. Like, I I put that this time anyway. But, but that's temporary, and she's gonna keep doing this through through the month and then in February and stuff. But, yeah, like, that's just I can't I can't keep doing that. So we'll have to but right now, we are at a like, I I'm doing this because it's a high leverage moment.
Colleen
00:39:59 – 00:40:24
So I'm trying to, like, put dump my time into it that I can. Mhmm. So, yeah, we'll have to just keep that in mind and, like, kinda readjust expectations for what we're gonna be able to do come February. And then that would also depend on how much money we're making and we can give to contractors and how much we think we should give to contractors and, you know, all that stuff is gonna come up.
Aaron
00:40:24 – 00:40:37
Right. Yep. Okay. Good to know. I agree for I I agree for you and I agree for me, that this is kind of a high intensity moment.
Aaron
00:40:37 – 00:40:59
And after, honestly, after Laracon, I'm probably gonna crash pretty hard because I have on top of that the the jitters of getting ready to prepare or getting ready to present. So, yeah, we'll have a discussion post Lyricon about if we wanna take a little bit of a break or how we're gonna handle that, but that's good to know.
Colleen
00:40:59 – 00:41:15
So work is my job is actually in a similar space as well. So it's awesome. I'm having to maintain this level of energy for this and for that at the same time. But it's crazy. I've never been in the situation where I'm working 70 hour weeks, but I don't hate myself.
Colleen
00:41:16 – 00:41:34
I mean, I wouldn't wanna do this. This is not good for my health, you know, forever. But previous times where I've worked this much, it was just like, I hate I was so resentful, but I don't have any of that. It's kinda crazy. Like, it's interesting because I burned out in the past, and I can tell I'm not going to here.
Colleen
00:41:34 – 00:41:46
Like, I'm not in that in that trajectory. Oh, I know I'll be tired, but then I'll just take a little break and I will feel rested and feel fine again. That's different than burnout. So yeah. Well, I don't know.
Colleen
00:41:46 – 00:41:49
That's just throwing that out there. Like, that's interesting to me. Never happened before.
Aaron
00:41:51 – 00:41:52
Sounds like a big positive.
Colleen
00:41:53 – 00:41:53
Yeah.
Aaron
00:41:55 – 00:41:57
Colleen, how's your energy level?
Sean
00:41:58 – 00:41:58
Fine.
Aaron
00:41:58 – 00:42:00
You're just, you're just like
Sean
00:42:00 – 00:42:01
I got things to do.
Colleen
00:42:01 – 00:42:03
Yeah. Coffee, Colleen.
Aaron
00:42:04 – 00:42:08
Seriously. Sunny California, Colleen. Oh. Everything's great.
Sean
00:42:09 – 00:42:25
Yeah. I don't I mean, you know, this is my job. So my situation's a little different. Of course, like some of the you know, the specific stuff isn't. I think there'll be a bit of a push to get this out on rails, but, no conflicts at this time.
Sean
00:42:25 – 00:42:38
The biggest conflict we're gonna have, and we'll deal with this when we have to, is the new cool front end thing that the client really wants soon. And we'll have to we'll have to pow wow on that, Sean.
Aaron
00:42:38 – 00:42:45
Okay. What is that? The zoom in. Yeah. Yeah.
Sean
00:42:45 – 00:42:45
The zoom in.
Aaron
00:42:45 – 00:42:47
Filter the filter in a filter thing.
Sean
00:42:47 – 00:42:50
The filter in a filter, UI.
Aaron
00:42:51 – 00:42:54
Which how fun was our jam session yesterday?
Sean
00:42:55 – 00:42:56
Would you call that fun?
Aaron
00:42:56 – 00:43:03
I would call that fun. I could tell you did not find it quite as fun, but it was awesome.
Sean
00:43:04 – 00:43:13
Oh, yeah. We're getting there. I mean, I was it was funny. I would have texted texted you, but it was, like, 11 PM your time. I was watching the Georgia Alabama game last night thinking about it.
Sean
00:43:13 – 00:43:14
Like, I was, like, oh, yeah.
Aaron
00:43:14 – 00:43:15
There you go.
Sean
00:43:15 – 00:43:20
Totally gotta have filter condition that we can slot in as a filter refinement. It's gonna be great.
Aaron
00:43:21 – 00:43:22
That's what I'm talking about.
Sean
00:43:22 – 00:43:26
Oh my gosh. Gonna start dreaming about this soon. No. Let's have a
Colleen
00:43:26 – 00:43:28
I'm a 100% dreaming code.
Aaron
00:43:28 – 00:43:29
Okay. Great.
Sean
00:43:29 – 00:43:30
It's not
Aaron
00:43:30 – 00:43:32
just Oh, no. I totally have done that.
Sean
00:43:33 – 00:43:34
Is this normal?
Aaron
00:43:35 – 00:43:37
No. It's not normal, but I've done it too.
Sean
00:43:40 – 00:43:51
Yeah. So I think that's all that's all moving forward in the right direction. Yes. So just the UI thing is gonna be the next big thing. There's other there's other things still in the way of that.
Sean
00:43:51 – 00:43:57
So I'm hoping I'm hoping the timing of that works out so we don't kill Sean, but TBD.
Aaron
00:43:58 – 00:44:03
Okay. Unless anyone has anything else, we'll call it there. K.
Me

Thanks for reading! My name is Aaron and I write, make videos , and generally try really hard .

If you ever have any questions or want to chat, I'm always on Twitter.

You can find me on YouTube on my personal channel or the Try Hard Studios channel.

If you love podcasts, I got you covered. You can listen to me on Mostly Technical .