Aaron Francis

I talk with Justin Jackson about being a new parent and trying to bootstrap a startup. I argued the other side of Justin's tweet thread: "Wait until your kids are older to start a company." The whole conversation is a nuanced take on the topic and full of important insights, especially on: the risks involved and the kind of foundation you need to be able to take the risk.

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Transcript

Justin

00:00:02 – 00:00:27

This is transistor dot FM. Welcome to build your SaaS. This is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 2023. I'm Justin. And today, I

Aaron

00:00:34 – 00:00:37

it's exciting to be here. I'm a longtime listener, first time caller.

Justin

00:00:39 – 00:00:55

It's this is the first time we've talked, and it's it's very strange because I listen to you all the time. You have had a few podcasts. You have the Hammerstone podcast. Right? Yeah.

Justin

00:00:55 – 00:00:58

Framework Friends. Am I missing anything?

Aaron

00:00:59 – 00:01:10

A long time ago, I had one called the music makers. Oh, okay. That was, like, 6 or 7 years ago, but it is now defunct. So that was my first podcast.

Justin

00:01:10 – 00:01:46

Alright. Well, I I listen to your voice all the time, and I also interact with you all the time on Twitter. And we are going to discuss, pretty hot topic this this time, which is can you bootstrap a new startup and do that while you have young kids at the same time. So can you, bootstrap a family and bootstrap, a new company at the same time? And, I had a Twitter thread on this.

Justin

00:01:46 – 00:02:21

And then I also wrote kind of a a blog post that that encompassed some of my thoughts, which is me really reflecting on trying to build multiple things when my kids were young. And now wondering if that was the best idea, if I should have just maybe waited a bit longer to, do both just because, as you know, starting a family is a lot of energy Mhmm. And requires a lot of focus, a lot of time. And birthing a company also is a lot of energy and a lot of time.

Aaron

00:02:21 – 00:02:22

Yep.

Justin

00:02:22 – 00:02:39

So maybe to start out, for folks who don't know you, explain kinda what you're doing right now professionally, and then share as much about your family situation as you'd like. So, yeah, what are you doing professionally, and then what's the the parenting situation right now?

Aaron

00:02:40 – 00:03:02

Professionally, I have a full time job at a company called PlanetScale. We're a MySQL, platform company. So I work full time, full time job as a I'm a developer educator, which means I basically, you know, make a bunch of videos, write a bunch of articles. I did, recently, I did a very big course on on MySQL. And so

Justin

00:03:02 – 00:03:15

that's kind of amazing, by the way. As a as a as a sidestep, I think folks should go check that out. How do they search for that? It's just like, is it MySQL PlanetScale? Will that find will you go to that one?

Aaron

00:03:15 – 00:03:23

Do it. MySQL for developers, PlanetScale would probably would probably do it better. Planetscale.com/courses would get you there as well.

Justin

00:03:23 – 00:03:25

It's awesome. People should check it out.

Aaron

00:03:25 – 00:06:09

Thanks. Yeah. It was a lot of fun, and a huge amount of work, which we can talk about as part of, you know, what we're talking about here, because I, you know, work at this company, which I love, and I love, you know, the stuff that I do there, which I think is important. But I'm also trying to, like, bootstrap a company on the side. And so I have a partner named Colleen, responsibility.

Aaron

00:06:11 – 00:06:58

And so I think I, at some point, just decided that I was okay saying that for this period of time, and I don't know what I don't know when this period of time ends, and I think that's an important thing to to note. But for this period of time, this is gonna be a lot of work, and I'm gonna put in the maximum amount of effort that I can. And then the latter half of that tweet was, at some point in my life, I would like to enter into the semi retired leisurely builder era of my life. I would like to do the Daniel Vassallo where I just kinda, like, hang out and do a small bet and make, you know, $200,000. But, like, I'm not there yet, and I think it was helpful for me.

Aaron

00:06:58 – 00:07:19

It was helpful for me to put a name on it to say, like, I I see things that I want. I see, you know, Adam Wadden and Ben Orenstein, like, running these companies, and now you and John running these companies where you do have margin and you do have freedom. Mhmm. I see that and I want that, but I I'm not there.

Justin

00:07:19 – 00:07:19

Mhmm.

Aaron

00:07:19 – 00:07:38

And to put a name on what where I am, which is my maximum effort era, has helped me mentally be like, okay. This is the thing that you're doing right now, and this is importantly an era that won't last forever because I'll tell you, it can't last forever. And that has helped me mentally get to a good spot with that.

Justin

00:07:38 – 00:08:08

Yeah. Yeah. I think, I mean, a lot of people listening to this can identify with that that thought of I mean, it it's what drives a lot of people to wanna start their own company is this idea of I want something better for my family. This has actually been in the past when I've had, not disagreements, but sometimes there's folks in the bootstrapper community. You know, we have things where we don't understand each other.

Justin

00:08:08 – 00:08:45

And when we got on a call, what ended up being true was that this particular thing was, I I think someone had said, you know, the money wasn't a big motivator for them. And I was like, the money's always been a big motivator for me. And, you know, money is ultimately, the line would be money is ultimately not a, you know, it's not a worthwhile goal. And I said, the money has always been a worthwhile goal for me. And I think what we ended up realizing was this person wasn't married and didn't have kids.

Justin

00:08:46 – 00:09:07

And when you're on the other side of that and you're all you're really thinking about is like how can I provide a good life for my family? And, a lot of that has to do with A) money, and then B) kind of the flexibility and freedom and autonomy that can come from owning your own business.

Aaron

00:09:07 – 00:09:08

Mhmm.

Justin

00:09:08 – 00:09:25

So and does that kind of describe your goal? Like, if you're thinking that the end result for the maximum effort era, you've said, you know, I I see these people running companies, and that's what I want. It's it's all of these things in a row.

Aaron

00:09:26 – 00:09:37

Yeah. I think that I think that does pretty accurately describe the the end goal. I'm I'm I think with you on the on the side of that conversation, like, the money is a motivator. Yes. Absolutely.

Aaron

00:09:38 – 00:09:45

The money the money is a motivator. Like, kids need clothes. They need, you know, rooms to live in. Like yeah. Yeah.

Aaron

00:09:45 – 00:10:04

They're gonna share a room because they're twins, but, hello. Like, we need space in a house, and houses cost money. So, yeah, the money is a motivator. I think there's a an you know, unfortunately, in the US, health care is a motivator, which sucks, and health care is expensive. And so all of that, like, all of that wrapped up is is motivation.

Aaron

00:10:04 – 00:10:30

There is also so, like, that's the very that's the very practical what is my duty as a husband and a father and the you know, in our case, the sole breadwinner of the household. Like, what are my duties? And I take that extremely seriously. I think there is also, like, what are what are my hopes and dreams, man? Like, what are what is my duty to myself, and what are the things that, like, I want to do with my life?

Aaron

00:10:30 – 00:10:58

And, like, those things those things super matter, and there are things that I am willing to sacrifice to try to make, we'll say for shorthand, to try to make my dreams come true, and there are things I'm not willing to sacrifice. And I think that's an important, like, that's an important thing to talk about. Like, what are you sacrificing, and for what are you sacrificing? Because there's kinda two sides to that equation.

Justin

00:10:58 – 00:11:14

Yeah. So maybe describe for me what on what are you willing to sacrifice, and what have you kinda outlined as, like, the no go zone? Like, I I can't sacrifice this as I'm and and just to be clear. So right now, you've got a full time job. You've got twins at home.

Justin

00:11:14 – 00:11:57

And on the side, you're trying to bootstrap a brand new software company, with a cofounder, which I think is is also another variable. And, you're still try you're working maximum effort, meaning I get up maximum effort on being a dad, maximum effort on being a spouse, maximum effort on working for my employer. And then on the side, maximum effort on business building, which for you also has meant building my profile on Twitter, building up speaking at a bunch of conferences. This is maximum effort in a spectrum of things.

Aaron

00:11:57 – 00:12:04

In in many directions, but importantly, not every direction. Yeah. It is Okay. Yeah. It is maximum effort.

Aaron

00:12:04 – 00:12:04

Justin

00:12:04 – 00:12:08

So describe the shape for me. What what are the contours of all that?

Aaron

00:12:08 – 00:12:40

Yeah. So for example for example, that that course that we spoke about earlier for planet scale, that was maximum effort. That was incredibly difficult because I'm, like, putting myself out there as the MySQL expert at a company that claims to be the the industry leading MySQL company. And so you can imagine the pressure of being, like, the public face of a public company in a world of database experts that want to find the places that you were wrong. Right?

Aaron

00:12:40 – 00:12:55

So you can imagine, like, the amount of effort that goes into that, the amount of production. You know that shooting video is really production in intense and, like Mhmm. It came out great, and I am so proud of it. And that's because I put in a huge amount of effort. Right?

Aaron

00:12:55 – 00:13:25

So I think, yes, maximum effort in all of those directions. And to the question of, like, what am I willing to sacrifice? A lot of other things is is the answer. I think, and the thing for which you are sacrificing. Right?

Aaron

00:13:25 – 00:13:43

And so Mhmm. To draw, like, to draw an absurd, you could say, like, I am willing to sacrifice my own life for the lives of my children. A 100%. Like, if there's a car coming, I know which one of us is gonna get hit. Like, that's an easy thing to say.

Aaron

00:13:43 – 00:13:56

I'm willing to sacrifice my life for this. Yeah. However, I'm not willing to sacrifice my life so that PlanetScale could make a a sale that they wouldn't otherwise make. Right?

Justin

00:13:56 – 00:13:56

Mhmm.

Aaron

00:13:56 – 00:14:08

And so the that equation is out of balance. Like, I'm willing to sacrifice my life a 100%, but for what? Not for not so that PlanetScale can close a deal. Right? Yeah.

Aaron

00:14:09 – 00:14:24

So that's the absurd. Right? So then you have to, like, kinda back it down to what are the reasonableness. And so then the question becomes like, am I willing to sacrifice sleep? Am I willing to sacrifice sleep to spend more time on Twitter?

Aaron

00:14:25 – 00:14:43

I I wanna say no because that's what I believe. Sometimes that doesn't you know, that's not true objectively. But, like, I'm not willing to sacrifice sleep to spend more time arguing with people on Hacker News. I am not willing to do that. I am willing to sacrifice sleep to hopefully make my dreams come true.

Aaron

00:14:43 – 00:15:13

Mhmm. And, like, that's the kind of trade off that I'm working with right now is, like, I wake up as early as I can, and every day, I don't wanna get out of bed. Every day, I'm like, I would rather sleep in. Mhmm. But the the the question is, are you gonna sleep in and then not work on your your side project that you're hoping is going to become a thing at some point, and in some way is going to fulfill this dream that you can't quite put your finger on.

Justin

00:15:13 – 00:15:13

Mhmm. Or are

Aaron

00:15:13 – 00:15:19

you gonna are you gonna sleep in? And that's that's a question I ask myself every single morning.

Justin

00:15:19 – 00:15:20

What time are you waking up?

Aaron

00:15:20 – 00:15:50

So these days, I'm waking up at about 6 and come straight out here to the shed the shed quarters, which is where I work, and do all my stuff in the morning. And then at about 7:30 or 45, depending on, the morning, I text my wife because I'm out in the shedquarters. I'm, like, 30 or 45, and she'll text back 30 or 45. And so I come in at 7:30 or 45 and help with, you know, getting them out of bed, doing breakfast, doing all that kind of stuff. And then I'm back out here at 8 30 between 8:30 and 9.

Aaron

00:15:51 – 00:15:59

So I work from home. So I have a lot of things going for me. Right? My my wife is a is a stay at home mom. I work from home, so I literally walk across the back deck.

Aaron

00:16:00 – 00:16:03

The I I have a lot of other thing. Like, I have a partner in my side project.

Justin

00:17:31 – 00:17:53

Most notably Gary Vaynerchuk was kind of like, I stay up till your eyeballs bleed, and did that when he had young kids. He's now divorced, I think. You know, context matters in all of this, and there's so many factors, and I think you've highlighted some of them. Number 1, do you have a job? Number 2, how demanding is that job?

Justin

00:17:54 – 00:18:08

Number 3, what you know, do you work remote, or are you commuting every day? Number 4, where is your partner in all of this? And that is a massive question. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin

00:18:08 – 00:18:40

The the the the, the response to the Twitter thread was there's quite a few people who said they thought that starting trying to bootstrap a company on top of having young kids would only be possible if your spouse was a superhero doing 90% of the housework and childcare. Part of my thinking in all of this I think sometimes I just wanna be careful on my own, when I'm when I'm discussing things. I wanna be careful

Aaron

00:18:40 – 00:18:41

to say no.

Justin

00:18:41 – 00:19:05

Be shy. Yeah. It's okay. Well, I know. I wanna be careful when I'm communicating to people to say if I'm gonna give general advice, the advice would be, it depends, but you really need to think through a lot of issues and some things that are easy to maybe even rationalize in the meantime, which is I I think my spouse is on top is in this.

Justin

00:19:05 – 00:19:13

You know? I think that and they're a superhero. They they're superhuman. They can do this with me. Humans are just actually humans.

Justin

00:19:13 – 00:19:54

They're we we're all actually normal. None of us are really super. The difference between saying, for example, Hey, honey, I'm gonna really put maximum effort into my job right now, because there's a high chance that if I put maximum effort into my career, there's a high chance I'm gonna get promoted. And that could mean us going from a 100000 to a 130,000 or a 130,000 to a 180,000 and those jumps are significant. The challenge with the business is that you are risking you're making this bet that requires an enormous amount of energy, time, focus.

Justin

00:19:55 – 00:20:17

And in some ways, at least for me, I guess this is where the individual comes in. You know, if I'm when I'm really good on Twitter, I'm thinking about tweets all the time. All the time. And when I'm when I'm really good in, and fully on maximum effort with business, I'm thinking about stuff all the time. Sure.

Justin

00:20:17 – 00:20:36

And that is obviously gonna take my focus away from other things. The risk you're doing, you're making a bet. And with business, it's just very likely that a lot of those bets aren't gonna pay off. And that was certainly true for me. I've had multiple bets throughout my adult life.

Justin

00:20:36 – 00:21:12

We had kids pretty young, so 22 is when we had Sadie. You know, I was making bets there, and some of those bets were maximum effort, cost a lot, and didn't pan out. I've got, an inbox full of people who are sometimes in the same situation. They're like, I'm risking it all right now, or I'm risking a big you know, I'm I'm taking this bet right now. And sometimes my advice is, you know, you could take those bets, but the foundation you're building this on matters a lot.

Justin

00:21:12 – 00:21:36

And sometimes it just makes sense to wait until the kids are out of diapers, or until the kids are in school before you take that bet. Mhmm. And a lot of it has to do with margin. Like, if I lose this bet, how much can I afford to lose? If I lose this bet, will this, you know, send our family into a tailspin or me into a tailspin?

Justin

00:21:36 – 00:22:01

So that's I think part of where I'm coming from is the to be a counternarrative where, you know, American dream, American, Protestant work ethic, all that stuff. Mhmm. The the the the balance on that is to say, well, hold on. You could wait. My wife and I did this after a first biz we had a retail business, a couple of snowboard shops didn't work out.

Justin

00:22:01 – 00:22:18

She said, and this is probably part of the picture too, is right? What does your spouse say? She said, I would really appreciate it if you just took a break from this until the kids are in school. So we did. You know, I just worked on career for the next however many years that was.

Justin

00:22:18 – 00:22:31

And I felt I felt like that was a good decision to just wait and work on other things in the background. You know, do a little audience building. Mhmm. Make some connections. Get some skills.

Justin

00:22:31 – 00:22:34

Anyway, so that's part of where I'm coming from. What do what do you think about

Aaron

00:23:37 – 00:24:04

isn't working. Right? So, like like, we're not making we're at the very beginning. I don't have the benefit to look back and rewrite some story and say this is, like, this is what you should do because I did I'm, like, I have no idea. I am in between trapezes hoping that I catch the next one, and I'm on the show right now recording it in stone, and I have no idea if I'm gonna catch the next one or I'm gonna fall.

Aaron

00:24:04 – 00:24:21

Right? And so Yeah. I feel that intimately. Like, I know that it's a bet, and I know that it might not work. What I will say again is I'll go back to, like, I'll go back to the sacrifice equation of, like, what am I willing to sacrifice and what am I not willing to sacrifice?

Aaron

00:24:22 – 00:24:36

So let's talk about I think there are stakeholders in this. Right? Me as an individual, my spouse, and my kids. I am not willing to sacrifice time with my kids. I'm just I'm not willing to do it.

Aaron

00:24:37 – 00:24:53

We my kids and I can't have an informed discussion about that. They are 2 years old. Right? So I'm not I'm not willing to say, like, I'm not willing to say, hey. I would love to be inside for breakfast and be inside for dinner, but dad is working on his dream.

Aaron

00:24:54 – 00:25:05

I'm I'm sorry. Like, that is a reasonable decision to make. That's one that I'm I have made, and I've made it the other way. And I've said, I'm gonna be inside for breakfast. I'm gonna be inside for dinner.

Aaron

00:25:05 – 00:25:28

Like, and there are things that I would maybe rather do. I've decided this is more important to be with my kids. So there's that. Then there's the question of, like, what have like, what about other things, like time with time with my spouse? And that's different because she and I can talk about that and come to an agreement as as a unit and be like, okay.

Aaron

00:25:28 – 00:25:37

What are, like, what's important? What's not important? Is it important that we watch 2 hours of TV together every night? Mhmm. No.

Aaron

00:25:37 – 00:25:47

Turns out it's not. Like, that's fun. Turns out, that's really not that important. Does she care if I work instead of watch TV with her? She doesn't.

Aaron

00:25:47 – 00:25:52

Your spouse, you know, your you, the listener, your spouse might. Mine doesn't. Right?

Justin

00:25:52 – 00:25:52

Mhmm.

Aaron

00:25:52 – 00:26:09

So that's, like, 22 different parties. I think the the third party is me. Right? So there are things that I can sacrifice, that really kinda only affect me. I mean, there are externalities, but, like, I can decide to get up earlier.

Aaron

00:26:09 – 00:26:19

Mhmm. I can decide to get up earlier, and I can decide that to me, it is more important that I try to fulfill whatever this thing inside of me is

Justin

00:26:20 – 00:26:20

Mhmm.

Aaron

00:26:20 – 00:26:54

Than that I sleep until 7:30 and then walk out and get the kids up. Like, there is an amount of time, and there is a sacrifice I can make. I can decide I can decide that I don't watch sports. Like, I don't really have a huge desire to watch sports, but I also don't spend my entire Sunday watching NFL football because I do not care, and I think there's something more important. And I want, like, I want to give something up to have the space to work on this thing that I want to come true in my life.

Aaron

00:26:54 – 00:27:02

I don't have other hobbies. People are like, what are your hobbies? Man, my hobbies are work. Yeah. And that is a decision that I've that I've made.

Aaron

00:27:02 – 00:27:16

I I, like, I don't even I can't even make up a hobby. Like, I guess also sports. Like, playing basketball maybe is a hobby. I don't have that hobby. My hobby my hobby is trying to make my dreams come true, and is it worth it?

Aaron

00:27:17 – 00:27:29

It's a risk. Yeah. But Yeah. But the equation is not, I'm going to sacrifice the youth of my children to try to build a business and then have the business fail. Mhmm.

Aaron

00:27:29 – 00:27:40

Like, that is an equation that is too far for me. I'm too risk averse to take that, and I think personally for me, that would make me regret my life, and I don't want that. I want to regret very little if possible.

Justin

00:27:40 – 00:27:40

Yeah.

Aaron

00:27:40 – 00:27:43

If I look back if I look back in 10 years

Justin

00:29:00 – 00:29:13

how well you can you know, for me, personally, so much of what you're saying is exactly how I've felt my entire life. Mhmm. Hobbies? What hobbies? Work is my hobby.

Justin

00:29:14 – 00:29:22

You know, people say, well, why can't you just be satisfied? You've got a good job. Why can't you just be satisfied with that? I said, I'm just not content

Aaron

00:29:23 – 00:29:23

Don't know, Dan.

Justin

00:29:23 – 00:29:33

Sit here and do this. Why are you willing to make this risk? Not just one risk, multiple risks. Why are you willing to make these bets? Why are you willing to invest yourself in this thing?

Justin

00:29:33 – 00:30:04

And it was because I had this dream that life could be better, that life could be different, that we could get somewhere that would make that could potentially make those bets worthwhile. On the other side of it, now I've been through it. And I think, some of my rosiness that I had when I was younger has gone away, especially when it comes to advising other people on what they should do. Because in retrospect, it's like, wow. We made it.

Justin

00:30:04 – 00:30:09

So, honestly, on this side, it is better. It's just better. Yeah. I know. The the

Aaron

00:30:09 – 00:30:10

I believe that.

Justin

00:30:11 – 00:30:31

The the the money is better. The the schedule's better. The, it's the sense of purpose is better. When things are going well, this can obviously, all of this is still subject to change. And, you know, I have friends who have also achieved this and they're feeling the same way.

Justin

00:30:31 – 00:31:10

This is it's why Tyler Tringus says this is the the new American dream. Because, you know, it it is substantially when it works, it's substantially better. But as I've, you know, had I've had a blog and a podcast and a community for aspiring bootstrappers for a long time. And giving advice has gotten a lot harder, especially if I'm honest about my experience, which was at the time, I said, you know, when I was really hustling, I felt like, you know, I don't have any hobbies, and that's okay. I am willing to sacrifice this thing.

Justin

00:31:10 – 00:31:38

It's it's fine. And there were some things, some blind spots that I didn't see that, ended up really affecting me. And I was talking about this with my wife, and I'm like, you know, I it's so hard because on one hand, I'm like, this life is better. But on the other hand, I can now see everything you have to pass through to get here, or at least that I did. I'm sure it's easier for some people.

Justin

00:31:38 – 00:31:53

The question I don't have an answer to is can you accomplish all of this without all that risk, without all that pain, without all that and by risk, I mean, like, real burnout. Like

Aaron

00:31:54 – 00:31:54

Mhmm.

Justin

00:31:54 – 00:32:01

Real like, everything comes to a head at the same time, and it's all falling apart,

Aaron

00:32:02 – 00:32:02

and

Justin

00:32:02 – 00:32:24

you don't know if you're gonna make it through, kind of, period. My wife sometimes says, you know, I don't know. Maybe that's just how life is. To accomplish something like that, you're there's just gonna be the risk of pain. There's this other part of me though that wants to believe that in the same way that other people who've gone ahead of me have been able to reduce some of my pain.

Aaron

00:32:24 – 00:32:24

Mhmm.

Justin

00:32:24 – 00:32:59

Like, I've had talks with Jason Cohen that have substantially removed a lot of unneeded pain from my life. I I think part of my position now is I'm like, I think there is the potential for some people to avoid some unnecessary pain, some unnecessary risks, some unnecessary pressure. And for some folks, that will mean, hey. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna wait until Mhmm. For me to to to, you know, ratchet this up.

Justin

00:32:59 – 00:33:10

The right advice at the wrong time is the wrong advice. Right? That's the that's the hard thing about giving advice. Mhmm. And so I wonder if we could well, first of all, why don't you respond to that?

Justin

00:33:10 – 00:33:21

And then, and then we can go from there. Maybe in identifying more more of those factors, more of those things that might help people make a decision one way or the other

Aaron

00:34:22 – 00:34:46

you know, mistakes of direction, whatever. But what I see everyone having in common, except maybe Daniel Visolo and DHH, they're all like, I worked incredibly freaking hard, and I sacrificed things to get to where I am. And then, you know, there are the 2 outliers who are like, no. You can do it in 10 hours a week. And I'm like, mhmm.

Aaron

00:34:46 – 00:34:57

That would be amazing. I would love to do that, but I I haven't been able to crack that nut. Right? So what everyone else says when they get to the top, when they make it is like, hey. I've made it, and it's awesome.

Aaron

00:34:57 – 00:35:15

But it was really hard work, so don't, like, don't do it. And I'm like, how am I supposed to get there then? I am willing to do the hard work. Like, that doesn't scare me. What scares me, honestly, what scares me is not working hard and reaching the end and thinking, god, I wish I had worked harder.

Aaron

00:35:15 – 00:35:36

Yeah. Like, reaching the end and thinking not, like, not not I wish I had given more of myself to a company. Like, I don't freaking care about that. What I what I fear the most is reaching the end and thinking, I wish I had watched less TV. Wish I'd gotten up a little bit earlier, and I wish I'd tried to make my dreams come true.

Aaron

00:35:36 – 00:35:49

Like Mhmm. That's pretty terrifying. Like, that's pretty terrifying. And so I have to balance that with reaching the end and thinking, I wish I'd spent more time with my kids. That's even more terrifying.

Aaron

00:35:49 – 00:35:49

Right?

Justin

00:35:49 – 00:35:50

Mhmm.

Aaron

00:35:50 – 00:35:58

The the the fear of unfulfilled dreams is not as great as the fear of not fulfilling my role as a father. Right? Like

Justin

00:35:59 – 00:35:59

Yeah.

Aaron

00:35:59 – 00:36:02

I can't even I can't handle that. I can't handle that fear.

Justin

00:36:02 – 00:36:02

Yeah.

Aaron

00:36:02 – 00:36:16

But both of those fears both of those fears are pretty strong. And when you look when you when you put yourself at the end and look back, you think, man, I do not care about watching The Office for a 57th time

Justin

00:36:16 – 00:36:17

Mhmm.

Aaron

00:36:17 – 00:36:26

When I could open my computer and try to make this thing that is inside me like, I could try to make this thing happen.

Justin

00:36:26 – 00:36:27

Like Mhmm. I

Aaron

00:36:27 – 00:36:32

don't have hobbies, but you know what? Painters like to paint. Right? What is a painter's hobby? I don't know.

Aaron

00:36:32 – 00:36:40

They probably paint. Like, I'm a I'm a programmer. I like to build things. I like to make things. My hobby is making things, is building things.

Aaron

00:36:40 – 00:36:54

Like, you know, the I'm sure the painter's parents are always like, why don't you get a real job? You're just a painter. The painter's like, I have to paint. Like Yep. I have a job because I have I have duties as a father and as a husband, but why don't I have hobbies?

Aaron

00:36:54 – 00:37:04

Because I have to paint. Like, I have to do this thing, and I am hoping that it will work. And I am going on the record while I'm midair between 2 trapezes saying

Justin

00:37:04 – 00:37:05

Mhmm.

Aaron

00:37:05 – 00:37:17

It is worth it for me right now. And I am very, very aware that in 5 years or 10 years, I may be coming on, you know, Justin's build your SaaS 2 point o and being like, my guy, it didn't work.

Justin

00:37:17 – 00:37:17

Yeah.

Aaron

00:37:17 – 00:37:27

But I'm willing to say, like, I have counted the costs at this point. And so far, I've weighed it and I've measured it, and I think I think it's worth it.

Justin

00:37:27 – 00:37:55

I mean, this is why it's so individual. Now I don't really know what's going on with you. I don't have a an omnipotent view of how you're doing psychology, how you're really doing, how your relationship with your wife and your kids really is. It's it's sometimes you know, none of us can really have that. But, based on what I know about your situation and based on what I'm hearing, if I was advising you, I would probably say you should probably go for it because Mhmm.

Justin

00:37:55 – 00:38:09

You seem to have a lot of the the margin where you need it. So if if you have a partner who is like, yeah. Go for it. I no hesitation. Like, go go go.

Justin

00:38:10 – 00:38:31

I would say, well, that's a pretty good sign. If you have a partner that is this is what I've seen as I've talked to a lot of couples who have, you know, where the one person's building the business, the other is not, is sometimes there's a slight hesitation on by on one of the partners, or they don't fully understand what this means. I'm building a business. Okay. What does that mean practically?

Justin

00:38:32 – 00:38:50

And problems start where there's not a full understanding of what this is actually going to entail, of what it actually is gonna mean in terms of sacrifice, what it actually means in terms of, a bet, and all those things. But it seems like in your situation, that's pretty solid.

Aaron

00:38:50 – 00:39:22

I I will say as as an interjection here, I think my wife is in the second category of, I guess, like, she's in the category of, like, I don't really know what that means, but that's great. And the reason that it works Do whatever you want. Like, I I don't really know.

Justin

00:39:22 – 00:39:34

If there if there were spouses listening to this right now, that is, like, 90% of espouse just went, yeah, Frank. What the what's the deal? Always on the computer.

Aaron

00:39:34 – 00:39:48

Here here's the thing. I haven't I haven't asked her, like, I haven't asked her to make the same level of sacrifice that I'm making. I have asked her to make sacrifices. Yes. Like, there are nights where I'm like, hey.

Aaron

00:39:48 – 00:39:52

I'm gonna go back outside. Is that okay? And she's like, sure. That's fine.

Justin

00:39:52 – 00:39:53

Mhmm.

Aaron

00:39:53 – 00:40:12

But I'm not asking her to, like, do everything in the morning and do everything at dinner time when I would otherwise be available. Right? So, like Mhmm. During the day, I am I am full time w 2. But outside of those hours, like, I should be available if I were not working on side stuff, and so I am.

Aaron

00:40:12 – 00:40:27

Mhmm. Because I sacrifice other things. So, like, yes. My spouse is incredibly supportive, and I'm under no illusions that I could do this if she were working outside of the home, but it's not like she is team she's team business. She's just like, yeah.

Aaron

00:40:27 – 00:40:32

That's great. You I know that you need to fulfill this thing, and, also, you're here to help me. So, like, do whatever you want, man.

Justin

00:40:32 – 00:41:08

And and it's probably fine as long as those expectations are somewhat compatible. I've been running Mega Maker since 2013, and in the midst of that there's been every once in a while just what you have that many people go through, family stuff comes up. And, a recurring trend is that the one partner thought that everything was fine, That they were on the same page with their spouse. That that everyone understood the risks, and the sacrifice, and, all of that. And then but in reality, they didn't.

Justin

00:41:08 – 00:41:26

It can cause a lot of pain if there's not a lot of communication and a lot of understanding. You can think somebody understands, but it's that some of the it's often those little things that can that can grow bigger if you're not careful.

Aaron

00:41:26 – 00:41:27

-Mm

Justin

00:41:27 – 00:41:42

-And But I've also seen the opposite. I've seen 2 people who are like, We're in this family together, and this is how I see my role. And this is how you see your role, and we're gonna do this. And we are just solid in in that. Yep.

Justin

00:41:42 – 00:42:21

And, so they're both can work. The things to be careful about if you're listening is really getting on the same page. I I mean, one thing I would I I think is pretty good general advice is, I would've I would have definitely gone to therapy for myself personally and with my partner way earlier in the process Yeah. And had a third party who is trained in asking the right questions to say, so why don't you each describe what you think is gonna happen here Mhmm. And what's gonna be involved, and let's really just kinda talk it out.

Justin

00:42:21 – 00:42:21

You know?

Aaron

00:42:21 – 00:42:42

I would echo that. I mean, I've been going to counseling individually for, I don't know, 5 years, something like that. My wife has been going for 15 years, and we've been going we've almost been married 10 years, and we've probably gone to counseling for on and off for 5 or 6 years. Like Yeah. It's just it's just helpful.

Aaron

00:42:42 – 00:42:53

Like, it's just extremely helpful to be able to pay someone to listen to you and ask questions. Like Yeah. So, yeah, we we do we do that. We do all kinds of stuff. We have a name.

Aaron

00:42:53 – 00:43:09

Like, it's, again, it's really helpful to name things so that expectations are correct. We have a name called individual pursuits night, and it's like, hey. Are we gonna do do you wanna do individual pursuits tonight? And sometimes she's like, yeah. I wanna watch Gossip Girl, and I don't want you to be laughing at it because it's ridiculous.

Aaron

00:43:09 – 00:43:25

And so it's like, great. Like, we're gonna watch a show together, and then we're gonna we're gonna talk or we're gonna do something and, like so it's helpful to name things again.

Justin

00:43:25 – 00:43:32

IPN versus CPN, individual pursuits night or couple pursuit couple of pursuits night.

Aaron

00:43:32 – 00:43:37

Yeah. I'll I'll float that acronym and see how it goes and report back to you.

Justin

00:43:37 – 00:43:39

Yo, baby. IPN tonight? IPN.

Aaron

00:43:39 – 00:43:40

An IPN.

Justin

00:43:41 – 00:43:56

I I mean, these things are helpful. This is why I I think podcasting is such a helpful medium because the nuance comes out and also just like good ideas come out. Like, this idea like, individual pursuits tonight. Maybe I'll use that. That's Yeah.

Justin

00:43:56 – 00:44:59

It's great. That's a great, and there are certain this is the other thing that, I have this belief and, again, I could be wrong, but it motivates a lot of my tweets, blog posts, podcasts thinking, is I do believe that it's possible to give people a framework that makes their life better. That there are certain practices, there are certain, things you can put in place, like therapy, like you just said, that just objectively, for almost everybody, will improve the quality of their life, will eliminate unnecessary suffering, and, will give you a stronger foundation to build a life. The that foundation, I think, is important in the same way that I believe the foundation of building a business is you have to have customer demand. Without customer demand as the foundation, meaning there is a market or a category that you're in where there is momentum.

Justin

00:45:00 – 00:45:35

People are seeking and buying a product like yours or seeking and buying something that is equivalent to what you're offering, without that foundation, you can't build a business. People have to want what you're making. And in the same way, there is pillars of a good life and pillars of a strong foundation that really make a lot of this stuff, I think maybe this is part of your confidence is that you've got some of these pillars in place. So we talked about communication with your spouse. We talked about therapy.

Justin

00:45:35 – 00:45:56

Are there some other pillars that you can think of? 1 I 1 is you have a career that is also compatible with you building skills and audience. Like, there's some cross pollination, cross Venn diagram. Is there other things, or do you wanna speak to that a little bit?

Aaron

00:45:56 – 00:46:17

Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think my role at PlanetScale is an ideal situation for me because, one, it is, it's in the same neighborhood as the, you know, the product slash products that I'm building. Right? It's developer tooling.

Aaron

00:46:17 – 00:46:28

It's databases. It fits within my my universe of who is Aaron Francis online. Right? Mhmm. So that is not lost on me.

Aaron

00:46:28 – 00:46:36

I'm I mean, I'm nothing if not strategic. That was not lost on me when it was like, hey. Do you wanna come, you know, create content for this database company? I'm like, hell, yeah. I do.

Aaron

00:46:36 – 00:46:42

Yeah. So that is compatible. I think it also is compatible that I don't spend all day writing code.

Justin

00:46:42 – 00:46:42

Mhmm.

Aaron

00:46:42 – 00:47:26

Right? So if I were to spend all day writing code and then log off and go sit on the couch and then log on and write some more code, I don't know how much that would affect me. I like to think that, like, daytime work is, like, researching and writing and making videos about databases. And so then when it comes to be nighttime work or, you know, early morning work, it's like, ah, finally, I get to write some code. And so there's a little bit of, like, variation between how I spend my brain juice all day and how I spend it at night or in the early morning, and that's really, really helpful.

Aaron

00:47:26 – 00:47:26

Right?

Justin

00:47:26 – 00:47:34

Yeah. That strategy is being strategic, I think, is also an underrated being strategic is an underrated strategy.

Aaron

00:47:35 – 00:47:45

Yes. Yes. I think so. I think, like, effort effort in every direction uncoordinated is an entire is entirely wasteful. Yeah.

Aaron

00:47:45 – 00:48:02

Like, we talked about, it's not maximum effort in every vector. Like, I can't do that. I don't think anyone can. It's maximum effort in vectors that are generally pretty aligned and strategically the things that I think will take me to where I want to be going. Right?

Aaron

00:48:02 – 00:48:26

So I'm not gonna put I'm not gonna put maximum effort into something where when I arrive at the end, it's like, well, crap. That's not actually where I wanted to go. And so it's very important to think like, alright. If these things are true, if my family needs, health insurance, if if I need to make a salary, if I want to make my dreams come true, I wanna spend time with my spouse and kids. Alright.

Aaron

00:48:26 – 00:48:45

Let's write all these things down. What do I do with all of those? How can I point as many of those vectors in the same, like, like, general direction as possible instead of, like, pointing them in opposite directions, which seems really, really hard to do, and I don't know that I would be able to pull that off?

Justin

00:48:45 – 00:49:17

Yeah. And and another part of strategy is an honest assessment of where you actually are at right now. Meaning, if you are taking care of a family member who has health, health problems, that is a that is a real thing in your life that you've got to account for. Meaning, I only have limited resources here. And if this is a real part of my life, then I'm gonna have to consider that.

Justin

00:49:17 – 00:49:34

If you are 2 months into, being parents and if things are going great and you're like, this is great. These kids are sleeping. These kids are you know, we get this. We're actually really good at this where it doesn't stress us out. Then that's a good sign.

Justin

00:49:34 – 00:49:52

That's an honest assessment of where you're at. If you're 2 months into parenting and you're like, this is way harder than I thought it would be. The wheels are falling off the bus. This is more stressful than I ever imagined. That's not a great situation to start a business in.

Justin

00:49:52 – 00:50:27

You know? You you gotta be you gotta be armed with yourself and be like, what's really happening right now? This is why, in strategy, they always talk about strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. Well, your strengths and weaknesses are like, what is honestly going on here at home that we need to consider here? And if the if there are some major, you know, situational things in your life that and and maybe it's just like, we we've got too many priorities.

Justin

00:50:27 – 00:50:49

We can't pay off the we can't pay off all of our student loan debt and do the all at the same time. And take care of mom and, you know, deal with these health issues. And you've gotta you know, do this.

Aaron

00:50:49 – 00:51:12

Yeah. I think what what no. I think what you're talking about there is it's the sacrifice equation running the other direction. So, like, if you're taking care of a sick if you're taking care of a sick spouse or a parent or your aging parents or whatever, you have to decide, like, okay. I'm gonna sacrifice working on my business because I'm gonna take care of my aging parents or my sick spouse or whatever.

Aaron

00:51:13 – 00:51:36

And, again, you just have to count. Like, you have you have to count the cost. Like, it is more important to me to take care of my aging parents early in the morning and late at night than it is to work on my business early in the morning at late or late at night. Right? So I think with everything, like, with everything that you're you're doing so, like, we're both saying the same thing from a different direction.

Aaron

00:51:36 – 00:52:03

Like, you have to count the cost, and I think what I'm saying, the counter counter narrative, is there are some things that you should sacrifice for almost any reason, and that can be watching 2 or 3 hours of TV at night. And Mhmm. Listen. If if the alternative like, that is if there is something on the other side of the equation for which you want to sacrifice. Right?

Aaron

00:52:03 – 00:52:33

So if you're looking at, like, if you're looking at your your time and you're saying, I I have 3 hours every night where I don't really do anything, but there's this dream that I want, and it's like, okay. That's easy to me. That is a no brainer to me. And I see I think I see, like, I see too many people saying that, like, they can't, like, they can't change their life because, like, they don't wanna grind. And I'm like Mhmm.

Aaron

00:52:34 – 00:53:08

I am gonna change my life whatever it takes. Like, no matter what it takes. But the equation the the equation is flipped if it's like, I'm burned out, and I'm like, I'm hanging on to the end of a knotted rope, and it's like, I'm about to fall off unless, like, unless I hang on with everything I have. In which case, I would say, like, okay. If TV, whatever it is, if, you know, taking long walks at night, if that is more valuable, like, you have to decide you're gonna do that instead of working on your business.

Aaron

00:53:08 – 00:53:32

You're gonna sacrifice working on your business because you're barely making it. And that is a like, that is a valid that those are valid numbers to run. And so I think what we're both saying is, like, you gotta you gotta introspect and decide what are the numbers for you. For me, I I have told you 10 times what the numbers are. I don't know what they are for anybody else.

Aaron

00:53:32 – 00:53:44

And, importantly, the numbers are gonna change for me at some point. They're they're like, I'm in I'm in this era right now. This era is not gonna last forever. I'm gonna run out of energy. The kids are gonna get older.

Aaron

00:53:45 – 00:53:56

We're gonna have more kids. Something will change, and I will have to sit down and redo the math, but many people aren't doing the math. They're just like, man, I wish my life would change. Well, that's too bad. I'm like, no.

Justin

00:53:56 – 00:53:57

Yeah.

Aaron

00:53:57 – 00:53:59

This is it. This is all you got, man.

Justin

00:53:59 – 00:54:30

There is another perspective on that, which is to clearly outline what you want, and then to ask yourself what is the best way to get there? And, I have had people back when I was doing more coaching. They would show up and I would say, what do you want? And they would say, you know, I wanna build this up. And I would say, okay.

Justin

00:54:30 – 00:54:42

Let's get started then. And and but I said, but that's not an actual reason. What's the actual reason why? What are you Well, right now, I'm making $80,000 a year, and my family could really use a 130. Okay.

Justin

00:54:42 – 00:54:53

Once we actually got into it, it just became clear that for this person, the the best path to getting to that dream is just to find a better job.

Aaron

00:54:53 – 00:54:53

Mhmm.

Justin

00:54:53 – 00:55:28

It's something that doesn't get, I think, mentioned enough, which is if if you're in a shitty job, if you're not making enough money, and you don't have an audience, and you don't you haven't, like, started any of this, it is likely that the best use of your time and energy and focus is just getting a promotion or finding a better job. Those things may give you nothing's ever going to give you a 100% of what you want. You might get 60, 70, 80. Maybe if you're lucky, you get 90% of what you want. So sure.

Justin

00:55:28 – 00:55:35

You go to a job. You have one of the downsides to getting a job is you have to ask permission to go on vacation, which I always hated.

Aaron

00:55:35 – 00:55:36

Mhmm.

Justin

00:55:36 – 00:56:23

But it may be in the math, that personal math, it may be better decision for a listener to be thinking, you know what? Actually, if this is what I want, I'm I'm actually avoiding something I'm scared of, which is going out and finding another job. And I'm replacing it with something that is actually way scarier, way harder, has a lower chance of success, I'm gonna try to do that instead. And this is why the stair step approach is such a nice idea of, like, you can stair step your way up to a nice remote job like Aaron has, and then, that's compatible with some of your long term dreams. I mean, that's a best those are the best employers.

Justin

00:56:23 – 00:56:30

Hey, Aaron. What is your long term dream? Oh, I wanna do this, this, this. Okay. Well, we're compatible here on a long term basis.

Justin

00:56:31 – 00:57:07

But I don't want people to think that that's not an option. My guess is that for most folks, it is better for them to find a better job than to try to start a company. Just because I've I've known tons of people who are amazing in all sorts of ways, have tons of skills, tons of and they don't make it. Making it in business is it's just it there's no sure thing. And so if you're playing if you're doing that math, I would consider saying, well, the first step, if I'm in a shitty job, is just to find a better job that gives me more freedom, more autonomy, more money, etcetera.

Aaron

00:57:07 – 00:57:23

Yeah. If we were like, I I am I think the reason I'm in this situation partially is because I'm extremely risk averse. Right? Like, I'm not gonna quit my job. I'm not gonna, like, I'm not gonna just be like, hey, family.

Aaron

00:57:23 – 00:58:07

I'm going to do my own thing. Like, I hope that I have enough money next month so that you kids can go to school. Like, I think there is definitely a way to, like, to work your way up to a position where you can then start to sacrifice other things, but there, there, again, there are nonnegotiables. Like, I'm I would love to be able to work on a business full time, but that's just not that's just not in the cards for me. Because this is not working.

Aaron

00:58:07 – 00:58:28

Mhmm. And so, yeah, I definitely don't wanna paint the picture of, like, I'm, you know, sacrificing everything, and I'm this, like, I'm throwing the whole team on my back. Like, no. We've got like, we we're not going negative every month, and the things that I'm sacrificing don't really count to anybody except me. And so that's where that's where I'm like, yeah.

Aaron

00:58:28 – 00:58:40

If your job sucks and you're going negative every month and or you're going in physically to somewhere that is just, like, beating you down, get out of there. Like, that is absolutely the best first step.

Justin

00:58:40 – 00:58:57

Yeah. This is the the challenge is so many people do get into starting their own business because they things are really not going well. And they're like, I got I gotta fix this. And sometimes that can work out. But I the way I've I've said it before is it's good to be hungry.

Justin

00:58:57 – 00:59:36

It's not good to be desperate. In the the hungry desperation scale, desperation is not a good time to be building anything, because you're gonna be in this vicious cycle. And, it's actually great having you on the call today because it's just clear. You seem calm. You seem like you're hungry, but there is a a foundation of calm that if I was gonna review a lot of these cases I'm thinking about from my inbox and from, you know, people I've coached and things, the times where it didn't work out was they were they were in that desperation mode.

Justin

00:59:36 – 00:59:51

They were too close to the metal. They were grinding gears, and, when you're in that kind of spiral, nothing is going well. All you're doing is putting out fires. You're putting out fires with your spouse. You're putting out fires with the day job.

Justin

00:59:51 – 01:00:11

You put so you gotta simplify as much as you can. And if you're in a situation like that, probably the best way for you to improve your life is to try to get a better job. Nice thing about getting a better job is a lot of the principles, that apply to business also apply to that. You're trying to give people something they want. You're trying to solve the boss's problems.

Justin

01:00:12 – 01:00:17

You're trying to, make yourself the most attractive candidate.

Aaron

01:00:18 – 01:00:18

Mhmm.

Justin

01:00:19 – 01:00:35

And these are all things that apply in business. Business is about when you have a product, you're trying to make your product the most attractive candidate for anybody who's looking for a product like that, and you can take some of those principles away with you. We've got an hour. Is there anything else you'd like to say?

Aaron

01:00:35 – 01:00:57

Thank thanks for thanks for letting me come on and and take the other side. I feel like this was really valuable. Hopefully hopefully for other people as well. I think I would synthesize the whole thing as, like you know, I've told Colleen this, my my business partner, a number of times. Like, the only thing you gotta figure out is what do you want, and, unfortunately, that's the hardest thing in the world to figure out.

Aaron

01:00:57 – 01:00:57

Justin

01:00:57 – 01:00:57

Mhmm.

Aaron

01:00:57 – 01:02:08

What what do you want? And I think for me in the past couple of years, I think I've started to figure out what I want, and I am not like we just talked about, I'm not extremely And then you just run it from there. Don't don't be afraid to commit. Do not be afraid to commit to it.

Justin

01:02:08 – 01:02:14

Yes. Yeah. I I mean, we could keep going. I'm sure. But I'm cheering for you.

Justin

01:02:14 – 01:02:38

I I That -Thanks. -That that hunger you have and that idea of, like, I got this dream, and I just gotta go after it is so I identify with that so much. And then having that line of, I have this dream, but I'm not willing to cross this line is also important. And, we heard I heard that from you too. So thanks so much, man.

Justin

01:02:38 – 01:02:46

This is great. I'm I'm sure folks will have lots of feedback on this. What what's a good way for people to reach out to you or say, hey. I'm listening right now.

Aaron

01:02:47 – 01:03:15

Yeah. I'm on Twitter, basically all the time even when I shouldn't be at, Aaron d Francis, Aaron with 2 a's, Aaron d Francis. The course that we talked about is at planetscale.com/courses. And then the product that my partner and I are working on is, we are in the middle of a of a pivot because we haven't found product market fit. So that's at hello query.com, and we're building a flexible way for nontechnical users to get access to their database.

Aaron

01:03:15 – 01:03:16

Justin

01:03:16 – 01:03:17

Hello, Query.

Aaron

01:03:17 – 01:03:23

Hello, Query. This is as of, like, yesterday, totally unannounced, so breaking news here first. So

Justin

01:03:23 – 01:03:25

I I say query. What did you say?

Aaron

01:03:25 – 01:03:25

Query.

Justin

01:03:25 – 01:03:26

Query.

Aaron

01:03:26 – 01:03:26

Query.

Justin

01:03:26 – 01:03:27

I say query.

Aaron

01:03:28 – 01:03:37

Interesting. We'll have to talk about this offline. That's the first time I've heard that one. Yeah. So hello query.com, I guess, if you're from Canada.

Justin

01:03:38 – 01:03:58

Don't take mine as Canadian pronunciation. That's a a recurring bit on the show as I pronounce things weird. Would also love to hear if you're listening, I would love to hear from spouses. And if you are a spouse of someone bringing building a business, yeah, it'd be great to have you reach out. You can email me, justin@transistor.afam.

Justin

01:03:59 – 01:04:26

I'm on Twitter, the letter m, the letter I. Justin, we have a live chat on Transistor. You can even put comments in there, but I'm hoping this will be the beginning of, an expanded, nuanced discussion about how to do all of this, while you're being a parent and trying to, live a good life, family. So thanks again, everybody. And, yeah, hope to hear from you soon.

Justin

01:04:47 – 01:05:04

Hey. Wow. You made it all the way to the end of this episode and you're still listening. Just wanted to remind you that you can get 15% off your 1st year of podcast hosting when you go to transistor.fm/justin. That's my personal coupon code.

Justin

01:05:04 – 01:05:28

If you've been thinking about starting a podcast, now is the time. And you can use cool features like this, where you dynamically insert ads or announcements into your podcast episodes. Pre roll mid roll and post roll. So go to transistor. Fam/justin get 15% off your 1st year of Transistor.

Justin

01:05:29 – 01:05:30

Thanks for listening.

Should a parent with young kids try to bootstrap a new startup?

Transcript

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