Stay Lean, Stay Clean with Caleb Porzio

September 3, 2024

Aaron is joined this week once again by Caleb Porzio to discuss everything that happened at Laracon (including a basketball game?!) before diving deep into Flux, the online reaction to the price, and what comes next. Sponsored by LaraJobs, Screencasting.com, and Mailcoach. Use code MOSTLYTECHNICAL to get 3 free months when signing up for MailCoach. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. 00:00 Man of the People 03:07 A Quick Ad Read 04:14 Laravel vs. Terminal Coffee 🏀 17:12 Laracon Recap 33:22 Notes on Laracon 58:30 An Interview With Yours Truly 01:00:22 The Flux Situation 01:21:39 Here's The Thing 01:27:17 More On Pricing
Watch on YouTube →

Transcript

Aaron
00:00:00 – 00:00:04
Okay. We are back with with cohost with the most Hey,
Caleb
00:00:04 – 00:00:09
Keith. Though. Fake Ian. Not Ian. Co host.
Aaron
00:00:09 – 00:00:31
And we're on we're on Aaron's super bad camera because, you know, I came back to the studio and turned everything on, and it said plug in or charge battery. And it's literally never been unplugged in the entire existence of the studio. So I don't know what the primogen did to my camera, but we're gonna blame it on him. So I've got the I've got the good one over here and the bad one on the tripod, so sorry about that.
Caleb
00:00:31 – 00:00:35
Well, now we're we're more even of a, like, production. You're on
Aaron
00:00:35 – 00:00:36
my level. We both
Caleb
00:00:37 – 00:00:41
I don't know if you're on my level yet, but you're coming down. So
Aaron
00:00:41 – 00:00:45
It's it's a man of the people move. I'm just trying to make I'm just trying to be approachable.
Caleb
00:00:45 – 00:00:47
You gotta keep it real.
Aaron
00:00:47 – 00:00:47
That's right.
Caleb
00:00:47 – 00:00:52
Gotta have a poorly lit office Yep. If you're gonna keep it real.
Aaron
00:00:52 – 00:00:57
That's how that's how I get people to trust me as I downgrade my my production equipment.
Caleb
00:00:57 – 00:01:00
You put the lenses back in the glasses Mhmm. Dim those lights.
Aaron
00:01:00 – 00:01:07
Exactly. Yeah. It's weird. You can see more of the background than I'm used to. Anyway, this is not interesting for an audio podcast.
Aaron
00:01:07 – 00:01:09
Caleb, you're back home.
Caleb
00:01:10 – 00:01:13
As are you. As I am. As you are. You never left.
Aaron
00:01:13 – 00:01:18
I never left, in fact, because I do indeed live here in Dallas, Texas.
Caleb
00:01:19 – 00:01:28
Shout out to Dallas, Texas, because I gave you some some crap on the last show for making us all go to Dallas and Yeah. And sweat. Okay. Not that hot.
Aaron
00:01:28 – 00:01:31
Okay. It wasn't that bad. It really wasn't. Not that bad.
Caleb
00:01:31 – 00:01:41
It's hot, but, like, it's not Arizona hot. Yep. It's not that hot. Like, your steering wheel didn't doesn't, like, melt off your car. Like, it's Correct.
Caleb
00:01:42 – 00:01:44
Fine. And who cares?
Aaron
00:01:44 – 00:01:48
You're in AC the whole time. Yep. Who cares? No one cares. No one cares.
Caleb
00:01:48 – 00:01:48
No one cares.
Aaron
00:01:48 – 00:01:59
The only time I care is when we're at the, the after was it the after dark party that was outside? And I was carrying around my backpack like an idiot, so I got sweaty back. You know? That's not right.
Caleb
00:01:59 – 00:02:00
Right. Yeah. It's not great.
Aaron
00:02:00 – 00:02:01
But
Caleb
00:02:01 – 00:02:11
it I mean, it was nighttime. You know? The the only time that I think actually sucked a little was, the line, you know, going in. Like, the line was so big. Yep.
Caleb
00:02:11 – 00:02:15
People were waiting out there for so long, and I did, like, man of the people.
Aaron
00:02:15 – 00:02:15
Mhmm. Like, I'm gonna
Caleb
00:02:15 – 00:02:25
wait in this line. I'm just gonna queue up talking with folks, whatever, just hanging out. I made it about a half hour, and then I was like, guys, I'm so sorry. I'm bouncing out. Half hour?
Caleb
00:02:25 – 00:02:27
Yeah. Is that a little
Aaron
00:02:27 – 00:02:29
long? No. That's forever.
Caleb
00:02:29 – 00:02:31
I know. Yeah.
Aaron
00:02:31 – 00:02:36
I was just hanging out and, like, kinda just yeah. I I was walking with somebody to the conference, you
Caleb
00:02:36 – 00:02:45
know, just, like, met up some folks. I'm like, I'm just like you. We're just walking to the conference. Right. We're walking into the line wherever that is around the block,
Aaron
00:02:45 – 00:02:50
and then it was just like, guys, I'm so sorry. I gotta bounce. And then you came clean, guys. I'm not like you at all.
Caleb
00:02:50 – 00:02:51
I'm not like you at all, and
Aaron
00:02:51 – 00:02:53
I just went, I gotta get out of here.
Caleb
00:02:54 – 00:02:55
And they went, oh.
Aaron
00:02:56 – 00:03:01
The, the speaker escort ran over and pulled you out of the out of the muck and the mire.
Caleb
00:03:01 – 00:03:08
Yeah. With their finger in their ear. That's right. Aaron, can I do a quick ad read?
Aaron
00:03:08 – 00:03:10
Yeah. Do an ad read. I love an ad read.
Caleb
00:03:10 – 00:03:21
Alright. Because I never do this on my own podcast, and I keep forgetting. But I have the T shirt now. K. This app is brought to you by Transistor FM, baby.
Caleb
00:03:22 – 00:03:31
Yes. I just real like, Transistor is the most useful piece of software that we all adore, but it's, like, invisible. It is. No? It's invisible.
Caleb
00:03:31 – 00:03:48
The listener doesn't hear that it's Transistor. This podcast is coming to you from Transistor FM as is all of my podcasts and every podcast. And it's run by Justin Jackson, who's just the best and reminds us all of that when he blesses us with his presence at Laricon.
Aaron
00:03:48 – 00:03:52
And on the basketball court. And on the basketball court. Right.
Caleb
00:03:52 – 00:03:52
Which to you
Aaron
00:03:52 – 00:03:59
So we need we need we need to talk we need to talk about the basketball court. But first, this episode is actually brought to you by Spotzi, and so we'll have a ad for that.
Caleb
00:03:59 – 00:04:05
Oh, is it really? Yeah. We could do a Spotsy. I could we could do an impromptu Spotsy ad read in auction.
Aaron
00:04:05 – 00:04:14
No. There's an actual there's an actual ad read I gotta read later, but, there's a free one for love Justin. Yeah. There you go. Basketball game.
Aaron
00:04:14 – 00:04:29
Yeah. Hit me hit me with a recap of the basketball game. So I I was I was recruited to be on the basketball team, and I know thyself and thought not a freaking chance. No no way I'm gonna be on the basketball court. So I put on the suit and did
Caleb
00:04:29 – 00:04:35
a little bit so that I wouldn't have to play. Coaching is less stressful to you than playing basketball.
Aaron
00:04:36 – 00:04:48
Yes. Absolutely. Coaching coaching is just like, there's no there's no one else doing it, you know, besides Will King, and then he abandoned me at halftime. So Sure. Shouts out to Will King.
Aaron
00:04:48 – 00:04:57
He's a traitor. But, yeah, if you go if you actually go out on the basketball court, you have to play basketball. That's the problem.
Caleb
00:04:57 – 00:04:58
You do.
Aaron
00:04:58 – 00:04:59
And I I don't play basketball.
Caleb
00:05:00 – 00:05:02
Same. But I did.
Aaron
00:05:02 – 00:05:03
I'm shocked. I'm shocked to hear this.
Caleb
00:05:04 – 00:05:11
Did did you do before? Be honest. Did you know what zone defense was?
Aaron
00:05:11 – 00:05:22
I did, in fact. Okay. So you could coach. Yeah. There, the own the extent to which I was useful is the extent to which, basketball and soccer overlap.
Aaron
00:05:23 – 00:05:27
And Mhmm. Surprisingly, it's not 0. So I my entire life,
Caleb
00:05:27 – 00:05:29
I played similar shaped courts. Yes.
Aaron
00:05:29 – 00:05:36
You know? Similar shaped courts. You use your hands in 1 and feet in the other, but it's like, you know, those are kinda the same thing.
Caleb
00:05:36 – 00:05:37
Similar.
Aaron
00:05:37 – 00:05:47
But the only thing I could contribute was 1, don't sub out Taylor and don't sub out Tom. Those that that was my biggest contribution was, like, Taylor and Tom, leave them in the game.
Caleb
00:05:47 – 00:05:47
Leave them in
Aaron
00:05:47 – 00:05:56
the game. 2nd second contribution, You'll let him sweat. You're the boss. I I serve at the pleasure of Taylor and Tom. And I actually told them that.
Aaron
00:05:56 – 00:06:06
I was like, hey, guys. I'm just here to be funny, so don't, like, don't listen to anything that I say. Yeah. The second place that I was useful was here here's here's an actual tactic. Here's a tactic.
Aaron
00:06:06 – 00:06:17
Y'all gotta slow down. You gotta spread out, and you gotta talk to each other. Just look at Eric. Because, coach, guys, it was it was not great. It was not great basketball.
Caleb
00:06:19 – 00:06:36
Oh, basketball. So briefly, like, I similarly was asked to to play basketball, and I gave a wishy what like, I'm stressing out about my talk. I'm stressing about the blocks. I got so much stress out about. Like, the last thing I need to stress out about is looking like an idiot playing basketball,
Aaron
00:06:37 – 00:06:40
which I don't play. I've never actually, like, played a team sport
Caleb
00:06:40 – 00:06:52
since soccer when I was, like, a kid. You know? So I'm not, like, a team sport guy. I've, like, played basketball, you know, just with friends. So so I don't know what zone defenses or anything like that.
Caleb
00:06:52 – 00:07:00
Whatever. You any basketball I've played is just there's a ball, and you chase it, and you don't double dribble, and you put it in the hoop, and it's all good.
Aaron
00:07:00 – 00:07:01
You know? You check.
Caleb
00:07:01 – 00:07:03
Like, that's as far as I go. It's, like, I know how to check. Yeah.
Aaron
00:07:03 – 00:07:04
Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb
00:07:19 – 00:07:26
Wishy washy, like, probably not, maybe, but whatever. And they're like, we'll buy you a jersey. You can keep it as a souvenir. And I was like, alright. Cool.
Caleb
00:07:26 – 00:07:34
Whatever. So I'm thinking I kind of escaped this and got us and got, like, a jersey. Right. Oh, this is a win win. And then Dave Hill, like, saw me.
Caleb
00:07:34 – 00:07:36
Is it David Hill or Dave? Like, can you call him Dave?
Aaron
00:07:37 – 00:07:43
You can call him Dave. I think his name is David. I think he goes by David. But if you're doing, like, a folksy thing, you could call him Dave.
Caleb
00:07:43 – 00:07:46
Like, he wouldn't mind. Well, because you know, like Oh,
Aaron
00:07:46 – 00:07:49
yeah. I have no idea. I don't know about that. That's what I was looking for. We'll stick with David.
Aaron
00:07:49 – 00:07:50
You know? We'll stick with David.
Caleb
00:07:50 – 00:07:56
If the Twitter profile says David you know, this is like the Michael Dorinda and Jake Bennett thing where it's,
Aaron
00:07:56 – 00:08:01
like, Michael Dorinda, Jake Bennett. Not Jacob Interesting. Bennett
Caleb
00:08:01 – 00:08:03
And not Mike Dorinda. And Mike Dorinda.
Aaron
00:08:03 – 00:08:05
He's not Mike. Dorinda sounds super off.
Caleb
00:08:05 – 00:08:14
Yes. So that that was, like, something at first I had to dial. I was, like, wait. So you are okay with Jake or Michael. So Jacob Dorinda.
Aaron
00:08:15 – 00:08:17
So basketball So Dave so Dave hits you up.
Caleb
00:08:17 – 00:08:18
So Dave hits me up, and he sees
Aaron
00:08:18 – 00:08:19
me at the hotel, and,
Caleb
00:08:19 – 00:08:21
like, everybody's going to the game.
Aaron
00:08:21 – 00:08:23
And he's like Mhmm. Oh, you made it. Alright.
Caleb
00:08:23 – 00:08:29
You're in. You know? And I was like No. It's like everybody's there, and they're all like, well, you're in. And I'm like, alright.
Caleb
00:08:29 – 00:08:30
I'm in. Whatever.
Aaron
00:08:30 – 00:08:33
I did not know that. So then we get there. They don't have my jersey.
Caleb
00:08:34 – 00:08:34
There's What?
Aaron
00:08:34 – 00:08:40
It was like he's like, oh, it might have been, like, a last minute thing. Like, they might you know? Like, it was a Chinese thing that they're slow, and
Caleb
00:08:40 – 00:08:46
they didn't whatever. And so he hands me a a terminal shop jersey. So now I'm on the team with all
Aaron
00:08:46 – 00:08:49
the people who are good and don't know me. You know? Right. Of course.
Caleb
00:08:49 – 00:08:52
Yes. Me and Justin Jackson. He's, like, all the money. Jackson. Yeah.
Caleb
00:08:52 – 00:08:55
Me and Justin Jackson. So and they're far better than you know.
Aaron
00:08:55 – 00:08:57
You're the token funny guys on that team.
Caleb
00:08:58 – 00:09:06
Oh, Oh, man. I know. And so I'm gonna come back to that. But at the end of the game, Nuno Maduro, shout out to Nuno.
Aaron
00:09:06 – 00:09:08
Not a great shout out, Nuno.
Caleb
00:09:08 – 00:09:16
Uh-oh. Comes up to me comes up to me and goes, hey. Is this your jersey in his hand? He's got my jersey.
Aaron
00:09:16 – 00:09:17
And I'm The whole time.
Caleb
00:09:17 – 00:09:21
The whole time. And, like, everybody just thought I did this along. You didn't announce me on
Aaron
00:09:21 – 00:09:23
the roster. It says Porzio on the back. I got
Caleb
00:09:23 – 00:09:27
a whole jersey with my name on it on the Laravel team. I don't know how he got it
Aaron
00:09:27 – 00:09:34
and why he held on to it the whole time. So literally after he comes up to me and then he's like, do you wanna trade, you know, for I was like, Nuno.
Caleb
00:09:34 – 00:09:38
Come on, man. Woah. So anyway Yeah. The fact that he had
Aaron
00:09:38 – 00:09:43
your name on it, and he still hit you with the, is this your jersey? Well, I don't wanna say that he got
Caleb
00:09:43 – 00:09:45
there because, like, Nuno.
Aaron
00:09:46 – 00:09:53
Not Oh, man. That's good that's good comedy, Nuno. Definitely. Right. It was, I was like, oh, no.
Caleb
00:09:54 – 00:09:55
Who found this? Where This
Aaron
00:09:55 – 00:09:57
is my this is my jersey.
Caleb
00:09:57 – 00:10:01
Honestly, and and he just, like, picked it up for me, you know. Probably.
Aaron
00:10:02 – 00:10:03
Good guy, you know, would do that too.
Caleb
00:10:03 – 00:10:11
Nuno. It's funnier to to paint him like a a a thief, you know, a Jersey thief that intentionally robbed me of my identity.
Aaron
00:10:11 – 00:10:15
I did not realize you were supposed to be on the Laravel team. I was Yes. I was on the Laravel team. Have
Caleb
00:10:16 – 00:10:17
right? They didn't announce me on
Aaron
00:10:17 – 00:10:20
the roster at all. I just stood there. Oh, so they didn't they didn't like me.
Caleb
00:10:20 – 00:10:24
They were going on the lineup? Not at all. And
Aaron
00:10:24 – 00:10:25
I'm so
Caleb
00:10:25 – 00:10:26
not only do I suck at basketball,
Aaron
00:10:27 – 00:10:28
I don't have a jersey.
Caleb
00:10:28 – 00:10:32
They didn't announce me, and here I am. So
Aaron
00:10:33 – 00:10:46
yes. If it makes you feel better, I showed up to the actual conference that I was, the MC of, and I didn't have a badge. So I got Nice. I got I got one of the lame, like, hey. This guy was added late badges, so we're on the same page there.
Caleb
00:10:46 – 00:10:50
Yeah. There should be a you know, I don't wanna again, we're trying to be a man of the people here, but
Aaron
00:10:50 – 00:10:51
Of course. Yeah.
Caleb
00:10:51 – 00:10:59
It's not it's not easy sometimes. Come on. Hey. You know, my badge is just like anybody else's badge. It's just a badge of the people.
Caleb
00:10:59 – 00:11:00
You know? It doesn't say anything.
Aaron
00:11:01 – 00:11:03
It doesn't have, like, speaker Doesn't have speaker.
Caleb
00:11:04 – 00:11:05
4 stars, like, you know, he's
Aaron
00:11:05 – 00:11:12
like narratives or anything like that. Right. Yes. So I tried to get backstage, like, right away, and
Caleb
00:11:12 – 00:11:17
they were, like, giving me a hard time. And I'm, like, trying to find somebody, like, hey. Hey. Hey. Tell them.
Caleb
00:11:17 – 00:11:18
Tell them who I am.
Aaron
00:11:18 – 00:11:19
Tell them who I am.
Caleb
00:11:19 – 00:11:20
Tell them who I am.
Aaron
00:11:20 – 00:11:22
Do you have any idea who I am?
Caleb
00:11:22 – 00:11:24
Oh, you're gonna hear about this later.
Aaron
00:11:24 – 00:11:27
Do you know who my father is? Have you ever met big
Caleb
00:11:27 – 00:11:38
guy? So, Aaron, we also have to clear that, like, everybody said nobody cares about this game. Nobody cares. It's just for fun. Yeah.
Caleb
00:11:38 – 00:11:41
Bald faced liars. Yeah. You got
Aaron
00:11:41 – 00:11:43
super heavy boozled on that one. Forever.
Caleb
00:11:44 – 00:11:45
We don't care. I saw
Aaron
00:11:45 – 00:11:49
It's just for fun. We're just gonna it's just gonna be silly. Okay.
Caleb
00:11:49 – 00:11:54
The only window. The only the only people who kept it real were Daniel Coborn and
Aaron
00:11:54 – 00:11:55
Justin Colbourne.
Caleb
00:11:55 – 00:11:57
Jackson. If it works with those 2 guys
Aaron
00:11:57 – 00:11:58
That's right.
Caleb
00:11:59 – 00:12:02
Oh, man. Everybody they're like, oh, yeah. We suck. And I'm like, yeah. Yeah.
Caleb
00:12:02 – 00:12:05
You guys suck. So do I. Great. Yeah. It's getting fun.
Caleb
00:12:05 – 00:12:11
No. No. They took it crazy seriously Yep. And are very good compared to
Aaron
00:12:12 – 00:12:24
non good people. Meanwhile, Daniel's sitting on the bench ripping sweet vapes, and we've got people we we've got we've got college athletes out there, and Daniel's, like, put me in coach. Literally. Man.
Caleb
00:12:24 – 00:12:29
Toehe. Toehe. Right? He was
Aaron
00:12:29 – 00:12:40
And Justin Jackson Justin Jackson has on his his, like, hip dress sneakers, and these other guys are, like, wearing Air Force ones. And I'm like, alright. I kinda got a read on the teens here. I know who's who.
Caleb
00:12:40 – 00:12:47
Oh, yeah. I was wearing a d like, not a sporty Adidas. Like, these were not these are not basketball. So my wife They're
Aaron
00:12:47 – 00:12:48
fashion, fashion Adidas.
Caleb
00:12:49 – 00:13:04
This is so much funnier through the lens of Hannah and her comments to me among many of them were afterwards. I'm like, okay, give it to me for real. Like, how how dumb did we look? You know, like, how bad was it? And she because she watched the West Boston Scott DeLisi stream, and I
Aaron
00:13:04 – 00:13:05
was like, were
Caleb
00:13:05 – 00:13:18
they, like, grabbing at straws or whatever, trying to come up with stuff? And and they said well, she said one thing. She said they didn't know who you were because they never announced you. So they're both, like, they're both it took them forever. I'd already I made my my big basket.
Caleb
00:13:18 – 00:13:19
You know?
Aaron
00:13:19 – 00:13:22
Yeah. Your big basket. We all remember the big basket.
Caleb
00:13:22 – 00:13:36
Hoping that's the term that you use. And, like but, hey, I did contribute. Yeah. And I came in hot, and and, apparently, they're, like they had no idea who it was, and then their name who says that. Right.
Caleb
00:13:36 – 00:13:42
No name. Literally says 0. How what kind of metaphor is that? Mhmm. And and then
Aaron
00:13:42 – 00:13:49
great. That that's Caleb. What is that kid? Didn't he just bust a million on GitHub Sponsors, and now he's playing basketball?
Caleb
00:13:50 – 00:13:50
So
Aaron
00:13:50 – 00:13:51
hitting the big basketball.
Caleb
00:13:51 – 00:13:51
Now he
Aaron
00:13:51 – 00:13:52
says awesome.
Caleb
00:13:52 – 00:14:05
Yeah. But nobody So she said she said the only thing that I think stood out is, like, you could tell you didn't you weren't wearing basketball sneakers. She's like, everybody else was wearing basketball sneakers, and you were wearing just, like, shoes, you know? Mhmm. So
Aaron
00:14:05 – 00:14:09
Justin was Anyway. And I'm I guarantee you, Daniel wasn't wearing basketball sneakers either.
Caleb
00:14:09 – 00:14:10
No way. Flip flops.
Aaron
00:14:11 – 00:14:17
Yeah. Gotta be. Chacos. I don't know. I bought I bought some new coaches sneakers just for that just
Caleb
00:14:17 – 00:14:17
for that game.
Aaron
00:14:17 – 00:14:25
Those look to to match the blue suit. Coach. The right? It was a it was a good outfit. People were giving me a hard time about the whistle.
Aaron
00:14:25 – 00:14:37
Like, coaches don't wear whistles. I'm like, have you ever seen a movie in your life? Yeah. Like, yeah, we don't go out there and call penalties or fouls or whatever you call them, but still, coaches wear whistles. Of course, they wear whistles.
Caleb
00:14:37 – 00:14:39
Don't tell me coaches don't wear whistles.
Aaron
00:14:39 – 00:14:47
That's what I'm saying. They wear whistles. They wear whistles. Maybe maybe not to a game, but this is like, this is a scrimmage. You know?
Aaron
00:14:47 – 00:14:51
Coaches wear whistles. Coaches wear whistles. They gotta wear a whistle.
Caleb
00:14:51 – 00:14:54
And then, like, just let it drop out of their mouth, you know? Exactly. Like, they're just, like, kind
Aaron
00:14:54 – 00:14:56
of playing on their chair and trying to, and then just
Caleb
00:14:56 – 00:14:58
go, mhmm. You know?
Aaron
00:14:58 – 00:15:01
Yeah. Okay. So We've watched all the same movies. You get it.
Caleb
00:15:01 – 00:15:06
We've seen the same movies. But, yeah, the the tweet of Laracon, the tweet of the entire weekend was John Traxler's
Aaron
00:15:06 – 00:15:06
tweet.
Caleb
00:15:06 – 00:15:10
That's like, as soon as I saw this what was it?
Aaron
00:15:10 – 00:15:13
It's so much better than what I'm saying. It was like, as soon as I saw
Caleb
00:15:13 – 00:15:16
Danny hitting the vape on the bench, I knew what we were enforcing.
Aaron
00:15:16 – 00:15:17
I knew it was over. I think
Caleb
00:15:17 – 00:15:22
I knew it was so bad. Daniel's vaping on the bench.
Aaron
00:15:24 – 00:15:25
Oh my god.
Caleb
00:15:25 – 00:15:35
So so yeah. Alright. So so but yeah. Hannah did again, I wanna tell every story through the lens of Hannah's text to me And her, you know, was like, oh, how
Aaron
00:15:35 – 00:15:39
was it? Looked, like, pretty fun but kinda awkward
Caleb
00:15:39 – 00:15:39
is what she said.
Aaron
00:15:39 – 00:15:41
Oh, brutal.
Caleb
00:15:41 – 00:15:43
She's like, oh, no. Brutal.
Aaron
00:15:44 – 00:15:44
He's so
Caleb
00:15:44 – 00:15:47
That means it looked so awkward. He did cut That
Aaron
00:15:47 – 00:15:49
means it looked terrible.
Caleb
00:15:49 – 00:15:52
Wasn't just me. It's it's it's the whatever. So, anyway
Aaron
00:15:53 – 00:16:05
I I mean, I think we played 4 quarters of 9 minutes each, and the final score was, like, 24 to 16 or something. It was like, yo, we are we're not we're not putting these in.
Caleb
00:16:05 – 00:16:10
It was not great. So yeah. Basketball. Fun, though. I think Fun, though.
Caleb
00:16:10 – 00:16:20
We we'd gotta do it again, but next time, it's gotta be with, like, people play basketball with, like, a volleyball or something. I don't know. Something stupid. Like, there need somebody needs to sub it out for, like, a rubber chicken or something.
Aaron
00:16:20 – 00:16:22
A little bit more low stakes.
Caleb
00:16:22 – 00:16:24
Then it'd be fun. You know?
Aaron
00:16:24 – 00:16:31
I still think, I still think dodgeball would be so fun. Dude, dodgeball can be dodgeball can
Caleb
00:16:31 – 00:16:36
be the same where people really I've seen some things with dodgeball. You've seen you've seen some I worked at summer camp.
Aaron
00:16:36 – 00:16:39
Decimate some some 8th graders. Seriously.
Caleb
00:16:39 – 00:16:49
The most, like, kind hearted, like, fruit of the spirit, folks. Right. Just with big limbs. You know? Just freaking windmill.
Caleb
00:16:49 – 00:16:50
You know?
Aaron
00:16:50 – 00:16:53
Just roasting some And you just boys in the face. Yeah.
Caleb
00:16:53 – 00:16:55
Yeah. Seriously, no mercy.
Aaron
00:16:55 – 00:17:00
No mercy. Cartoon style. Leave their feet. Yeah. Yes.
Aaron
00:17:00 – 00:17:02
We should do it. That'll be awesome.
Caleb
00:17:02 – 00:17:03
Yeah. That's probably great.
Aaron
00:17:03 – 00:17:04
We gotta do dodgeball. Yeah.
Caleb
00:17:05 – 00:17:05
Oh, great.
Aaron
00:17:05 – 00:17:10
So, yeah, basketball. What a way to kick it off. What a way to kick it off. What a way to kick it off. Good time.
Aaron
00:17:10 – 00:17:18
Good time. And we roll into, let's see what else we roll into day 1. Big big day 1. Good day 1. Good day 1.
Caleb
00:17:19 – 00:17:19
Any anything
Aaron
00:17:19 – 00:17:23
I don't wanna go over all the talks because Yeah. That sounds boring.
Caleb
00:17:24 – 00:17:25
Let me just shout out to you, Aaron Francis.
Aaron
00:17:25 – 00:17:27
Shout out to me. I shout out shout out
Caleb
00:17:27 – 00:17:47
to me. In person, but let me put this out there that, like, when I was coming up, you knew I remember looking at certain folks who I considered, you know, the Laravel elite, and I was not an elite. Mhmm. And when I first got, like, my big break to go on stage Mhmm. Made it in as a nobody, just submitted a talk, whatever.
Caleb
00:17:47 – 00:17:57
Like, nobody knew who I was. I just put out a talk. It got accepted. I was thrilled. This was, like, the thing for me, and I gave this talk, and I knew it it killed.
Caleb
00:17:57 – 00:18:01
It did yeah. This was the embrace the back end, I think. Yeah. I remember that. Everybody loved it.
Caleb
00:18:01 – 00:18:13
It it was like I won lottery or something. It was just people coming up to me just it was a whole thing because whatever. For me, it was a big deal. And I knew that the people I wanted to see it the most didn't see it. You know?
Caleb
00:18:13 – 00:18:26
I knew and it was a long struggle of, like, you know, now I think Taylor watches my talks, but, you know and I'm not well, I'm not saying this. This isn't whatever. I don't watch people's talks anymore for the most part, just so you know. So I'm the problem. Totally.
Caleb
00:18:26 – 00:18:27
I get it. Mhmm.
Aaron
00:18:27 – 00:18:36
But at that point, I I remember having like, I gotta do that again and again and again, and eventually, maybe one of them will hear that his talks are good. You should have him back next year.
Caleb
00:18:36 – 00:18:57
Yep. You know, whatever, that kind of thing. Aaron Francis has the, you know, the pedigree or the privilege or whatever of somebody who could easily not watch talks, but people want him to know that if they're good, they want him to know, and Aaron watches every single talk, which is insane. And I remember I I was principled for a few years. I tried to watch everybody's talk.
Caleb
00:18:57 – 00:19:09
Now it's all over. I just it's all over. But anyway, kudos to you. It's a it's that's a that's a power move because you don't have to, and you do.
Aaron
00:19:09 – 00:19:22
Wow. That's nice of you to say. I appreciate that. I, so I take my responsibilities, all of them. Every responsibility, every duty, I take all of those very seriously up to and including being an emcee.
Aaron
00:19:22 – 00:19:26
And so, like, part of it is I gotta come I gotta come back out on stage and have, like, a
Caleb
00:19:27 – 00:19:27
part of the job. Right?
Aaron
00:19:27 – 00:19:58
You can't let conversation with the speaker and not, like, not phone it in because I think if you come out and you're you're phoning it in, it's, like, rude to the speaker. It's a little bit demoralizing. It's a little bit the audience is like, this guy didn't even watch the talk. And so I would love to, like, I'd love to bebop around backstage and, you know, shake hands and point at people. But, yes, I watched every single talk from side stage peeking through the little curtain with my with my phone out, taking notes to make sure I knew what was going on.
Aaron
00:19:58 – 00:20:03
Yeah. That's fun. I you know, I enjoy it, but it is a lot of it's a lot of work.
Caleb
00:20:03 – 00:20:19
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's I mean, that's great. And that we're in a unique position where we have somebody who's who's, like, uniquely good at emceeing and things like that, but also knows the community, knows the people, knows the tech, and has the grit to watch, you know, these talks and whatever.
Caleb
00:20:19 – 00:20:28
It's like like, there's fair it's a small list. Like like, Matt Stauffer is somebody I could think of that could do this, like, that would, you know it's a small list, and, and you do it well. So Aaron Francis.
Aaron
00:20:29 – 00:20:29
Oh, thanks.
Caleb
00:20:29 – 00:20:30
Good man.
Aaron
00:20:30 – 00:20:39
Thank you. I appreciate that. I, Chebloin. They they asked me after the event staff asked me after the conference if I'd wanna emcee some of their other events.
Caleb
00:20:39 – 00:20:39
Yeah.
Aaron
00:20:39 – 00:20:43
And I told him, send me an email. I I'm up for anything. You know? We'll write
Caleb
00:20:43 – 00:20:44
in the bin, but, too.
Aaron
00:20:44 – 00:20:55
Yeah. Yeah. See what you got. But I I did think about, like, how would I how would I host, you know, century 21 mid rest Midwest Regional Sales Conference? Like, that would be a lot harder.
Caleb
00:20:56 – 00:20:57
Do it. It would be a lot harder.
Aaron
00:20:57 – 00:20:59
You could do it. Much harder.
Caleb
00:20:59 – 00:21:00
Oh, yeah. No. That's true.
Aaron
00:21:00 – 00:21:03
And be like, well, houses. Am I right? You know?
Caleb
00:21:03 – 00:21:13
I'm hoping that the fact, like, the people who do stuff at the factory are, like I'm thinking all those people, they gotta be going to the hotels, conferences, you know, like
Aaron
00:21:13 – 00:21:13
Yeah.
Caleb
00:21:13 – 00:21:16
Like, if you're at the factory, like, you're at least a little cool. You're
Aaron
00:21:16 – 00:21:32
at least a little cool. These but this this group is the same one the same one that did Nashville last year. So I don't know where this events group is based. Oh. But maybe they do like, if they do purely tech conferences, like, I could totally host rails world or Sure.
Aaron
00:21:32 – 00:21:46
I could host some sort of, like, tech agnostic, you know, GitHub universe style thing. I could totally do that. Yeah. But some of them might be like, y'all, I have no idea what any of y'all are talking about, and that would be kinda tough. Yeah.
Aaron
00:21:46 – 00:21:49
It's nice. It's nice. It's very nice. Though. I like it.
Aaron
00:21:49 – 00:21:52
I like being out on stage. I I have a great time.
Caleb
00:21:52 – 00:21:57
Yeah. It's, but you gotta do all that other work. That's the problem.
Aaron
00:21:57 – 00:21:58
All that other work.
Caleb
00:21:58 – 00:22:07
It's nice to just be on stage. Like, I just get to go on stage, you know, and I don't have to do all the other work. And then they just have technical problems, and then I get to just vamp with you. Man. And How was that?
Caleb
00:22:07 – 00:22:09
And we have fun. That was great.
Aaron
00:22:09 – 00:22:10
That's great.
Caleb
00:22:10 – 00:22:12
That was that was the highlight of the conference for me.
Aaron
00:22:12 – 00:22:15
I think that was the highlight of the conference for me too.
Caleb
00:22:15 – 00:22:24
Yeah. It it just it was, like, you know, I mean, something that that we're just uniquely good at, and it just, like, fell into our lap. I know. You know?
Aaron
00:22:24 – 00:22:38
It's just, like, a lot of a disaster where everyone is, like, this is gonna be a disaster. And you and I are, like, oh, this is our opportunity. Go. And everybody's on our team because they're, like, I can't imagine doing this. I know.
Aaron
00:22:38 – 00:22:38
What an opportunity.
Caleb
00:22:39 – 00:22:49
Most charitable crowd in the world. Uh-huh. Because the baseline the expectation is just, like, seeing your way off stage or sweating a lot and being silent. You know? Yeah.
Aaron
00:22:49 – 00:23:06
So When I saw you so, of course, I'm sitting side stage watching. You know? Yeah. And when I saw that it wasn't working, I gave it, you know, a few, like, 30 seconds, minute and a half, and then was like, this is not going to work. And so I looked at Aspen, who's, like, the production manager.
Aaron
00:23:06 – 00:23:09
I said, turn on my mic. I have to go save him.
Caleb
00:23:09 – 00:23:09
Yeah.
Aaron
00:23:09 – 00:23:25
And so I just she turned on my mic, and I ran out there and had no idea what was gonna happen next. Yeah. And I'm so grateful we had the whole backstage, we we had a whole episode of, you know, Seinfeld backstage talking about handshake. Literally just right before I went on stage. Yeah.
Caleb
00:23:25 – 00:23:39
We're doing this whole handshake bit for an audience of 4, and and it's funny and we're whatever. And one of us probably said, like, this I don't know. We and then just happened to be able to replay the bit. That was great. Like right away.
Caleb
00:23:39 – 00:23:48
Yeah. That was great. Part before that, it's like a blur because that was the only part that, like, I wasn't nervous because something's going wrong. I didn't. It's not like I was the reason it was going wrong,
Aaron
00:23:48 – 00:23:49
you know,
Caleb
00:23:49 – 00:24:09
so I wasn't nervous. I didn't feel like like, oh, this is going solid and it's whatever. It's not like if my demo stopped working or something, you know. But it was, you know, like, kind of a flurry. And I I remember make I can't wait to watch the video because I remember making remember doing a doing a, like, you know, 60 minutes on my name pronunciation or something.
Caleb
00:24:11 – 00:24:12
Like, literally just
Aaron
00:24:12 – 00:24:13
Do you remember that at all?
Caleb
00:24:13 – 00:24:20
Oh, I think I think literally my opener is, like, yeah. So I'm Caleb K LUB is how you pronounce it.
Aaron
00:24:20 – 00:24:21
Oh, brutal.
Caleb
00:24:21 – 00:24:27
Or Caleb, you know, I was actually getting laughs, but that but it was like, how long am I gonna wait? Ran out because
Aaron
00:24:27 – 00:24:28
that might have been my
Caleb
00:24:28 – 00:24:29
my signal to be like, oh,
Aaron
00:24:29 – 00:24:30
he's he's dying all the time.
Caleb
00:24:30 – 00:24:34
Like, well, how much I don't think I can do much more on this name thing. You know?
Aaron
00:24:34 – 00:24:37
Because we've only got 2 syllables, and we just got that whole thing.
Caleb
00:24:37 – 00:24:40
We got through all the pronunciations. So anyway.
Aaron
00:24:41 – 00:24:52
Yeah. And then watch it. And I told I told, I told Hank, the Laravel marketing guy. I was like, listen. I'm sure that's not gonna end up on the channel, but I want I want that footage.
Aaron
00:24:52 – 00:24:54
Please preserve that for posterity.
Caleb
00:24:54 – 00:24:54
Right.
Aaron
00:24:54 – 00:24:57
Because that was good. That was good content, man.
Caleb
00:24:57 – 00:24:59
It was great bit. It was good content.
Aaron
00:24:59 – 00:25:05
Yeah. And then I get to, you know, I get to announce you back on stage. Caleb Horsey for the first time today. That's great. Come
Caleb
00:25:05 – 00:25:13
on. Hey. It it, I mean, talk about the easiest entrance ever. You know?
Aaron
00:25:13 – 00:25:15
Yeah. You just I was just working the room.
Caleb
00:25:15 – 00:25:18
How long was I on stage for before I even started my talk?
Aaron
00:25:18 – 00:25:29
I think it was a full 30 minutes. Because I think you were supposed to start at 9:30, and we pushed it to 10. And I gave you I gave you an out. I was like, alright, guys. This is not working.
Aaron
00:25:29 – 00:25:35
We will come back at 10, and you're like, hey. What if we take some q and a? Like, this guy. What a freaking pro, this guy.
Caleb
00:25:35 – 00:25:40
Do it. And you just work the room. It was awesome. That was super fun. Yeah.
Caleb
00:25:40 – 00:25:46
That was really fun. And there was hilarious questions. You know, the one dude was like, why does the LiveWire logo
Aaron
00:25:46 – 00:25:49
look the way it does? Yeah. There was some
Caleb
00:25:49 – 00:26:03
funny ones. So, yeah, that was a good time. But, yeah, reentering the stage after, like, we're we've already been chilling for a half an hour. And I gotta say the first slot second day is generally a pretty good like, there's a lot worse slots. You know, there's plenty of worse slots.
Caleb
00:26:03 – 00:26:15
It's maybe the 3rd best slot. I don't know. But, looking at, like, when when I got on stage, I was actually glad we had an extra half hour because there weren't that many people there. Yeah. Like, 2nd day.
Caleb
00:26:15 – 00:26:17
Daniel wasn't there.
Aaron
00:26:18 – 00:26:23
He rolled he rolled in sleepyhead at, like, 9:50 to be, like, hey, what's this what's this show going
Caleb
00:26:23 – 00:26:24
on here? So this is what I get.
Aaron
00:26:24 – 00:26:27
I get, like I I was gonna say it's on stage when I did.
Caleb
00:26:27 – 00:26:40
He messaged me, so I you know, I'm, like, there for for my d c, you know. Like, I'm backstage with him, pumping him up. Dude, so pumped. Like, sitting front row, screaming, obscenities, obscenities, obscenities. Getting off stage for obscenity.
Caleb
00:26:40 – 00:26:42
Okay. I don't think you clarified it.
Aaron
00:26:42 – 00:26:43
What is it? Obscenities.
Caleb
00:26:44 – 00:26:49
Obscenities? Okay. Yeah. So, pumping him up, whatever. He's grateful.
Caleb
00:26:49 – 00:26:56
He messages me, like, late at night. I was already sleeping. So this should be my first sign, but he messaged me. He's like, dude, you know, being a bro.
Aaron
00:26:56 – 00:26:57
And he's like Yeah.
Caleb
00:26:57 – 00:27:01
You know, I'm gonna be there for you, man. Like, you know, this whole thing. I'm not
Aaron
00:27:02 – 00:27:05
going to go well for Daniel. I know where this, I know where the story is going.
Caleb
00:27:06 – 00:27:10
Like on stage, like, so we're like, oh, well, Daniel, wait, where's Daniel?
Aaron
00:27:10 – 00:27:12
Where's that guy? Where's that shaggy guy?
Caleb
00:27:12 – 00:27:26
But anyway, Daniel and many others were not there because I don't know, like first talk, first day has full attendance. You know? Last talk, first day has full attendance. Mhmm. 1st talk, second day does not have full attendance.
Aaron
00:27:26 – 00:27:29
Well, yes, sir. It's a crack of 9:30. Who can be expected to get
Caleb
00:27:29 – 00:27:31
Everybody's been after dark. 30.
Aaron
00:27:31 – 00:27:35
I know. I couldn't believe it. It's like, do you guys have kids? This is, like, noon in
Caleb
00:27:35 – 00:27:36
kid time.
Aaron
00:27:36 – 00:27:37
Like Exactly.
Caleb
00:27:37 – 00:27:45
We've been up for days. Yeah. And then what do you think of, like, last talk second day? Because then you have people who are starting to leave or whatever.
Aaron
00:27:45 – 00:27:46
Like Starting to leave early.
Caleb
00:27:46 – 00:27:48
How well attended is that you think?
Aaron
00:27:48 – 00:27:50
I think extremely well attended.
Caleb
00:27:50 – 00:27:51
Mhmm. I think
Aaron
00:27:51 – 00:27:56
the only reason you wouldn't be there last talk second day is if you, for some reason, had to go home
Caleb
00:27:56 – 00:27:58
early. Yep.
Aaron
00:27:58 – 00:28:17
And I think, who was it that told me, oh, Jess Jess Archer told me last year at Nashville that that slot is called the lock note. So you have the keynote at the beginning of the day and the lock note at the end of the day. Uh-oh. And that is supposed to be a big name that keeps people around.
Caleb
00:28:17 – 00:28:18
And so I think that's
Aaron
00:28:18 – 00:28:23
why they put Primogen at the very end so that people would stay throughout the whole conference.
Caleb
00:28:24 – 00:28:29
Yep. For sure. Yeah. That's essential. It just felt intuitive, but that that's cool.
Caleb
00:28:29 – 00:28:30
Yeah.
Aaron
00:28:30 – 00:28:30
No. I
Caleb
00:28:30 – 00:28:32
know. I'd never heard that.
Aaron
00:28:32 – 00:28:36
Yeah, that's cool. It's the worst slot as a speaker, you know?
Caleb
00:28:36 – 00:28:36
Yeah. Because you
Aaron
00:28:36 – 00:28:40
get to experience, anxiety all the way up until the conference is over.
Caleb
00:28:40 – 00:28:45
You get to enjoy none of the conference. None of it. All none of it.
Aaron
00:28:45 – 00:28:55
Although, I will say, I think Prime is, extremely relaxed and enjoyed the whole conference. And then walked out on the stage, no slides, no notes, and just gave 15 minutes and just crushed glory.
Caleb
00:28:55 – 00:29:08
So Yeah. And I think most, I mean, most professional and I I could be totally wrong on this, but it just seems like you know, usually the keynote is somebody who does this a lot. Yeah. Like an uncle Bob or something. Like, they this is what they do.
Caleb
00:29:08 – 00:29:12
And may and a lot of times, I think they've they're only there for their talk. You know?
Aaron
00:29:12 – 00:29:28
Yeah. That's one thing I really appreciate about, Lyricon is all the speakers are just there the whole time. All the time. Like, Primogen was there from before day 1 to the very end, and he was hanging out and chatting and bebopping. I I love that.
Caleb
00:29:29 – 00:29:34
Yep. That is huge. Those are the things those are special things. They're rare. They're special.
Caleb
00:29:34 – 00:29:44
I remember Sandy Metz in 2017 or 18 or something. I don't know. But she I think so. It was, like, Louisville. I don't even know what year that was.
Caleb
00:29:44 – 00:29:48
And she, like, showed up, and, you know, she's pretty big name and
Aaron
00:29:49 – 00:29:49
Yeah. She's a big name.
Caleb
00:29:49 – 00:30:03
Speaker and whatever. And I don't think she stayed the whole conference, but I remember, her being in the audience, the the talk before her talk. She was, like, sitting there enjoying the talk. I sat next to
Aaron
00:30:03 – 00:30:05
her and just chatted it up, and it
Caleb
00:30:05 – 00:30:20
it and then in high, it was, like, wow. Like, you were on next, and you were the the closer. And the talk before your talk, you were mingling with people. You were sitting in the seat, paying attention to someone else's talk and cheering for them and being interested in the content. Like, those are the things that I aspire to.
Caleb
00:30:20 – 00:30:21
It's like, that's really cool.
Aaron
00:30:21 – 00:30:30
That's the ultimate, quiet display of power right there. True. To be like, I'm gonna go on next.
Caleb
00:30:30 – 00:30:30
I have
Aaron
00:30:30 – 00:30:43
a big name, but I'm gonna sit here, relax, and support other people. That's, like, that's quiet confidence. That's crazy. If I were whenever I give a talk, I never listen to the person right before me. Yeah.
Caleb
00:30:43 – 00:30:46
No one does. You're like Because I'm growing up or you're just whatever.
Aaron
00:30:46 – 00:30:52
Sure everything's good, you know, shaking shaking out the jitters. But Yeah. Yeah. Maybe maybe someday I'll get there. That's awesome.
Caleb
00:30:52 – 00:31:04
I know. Yeah. You gotta be pretty I mean, I'd I at least needed, like I think I had more of that vibe this time than ever, but I definitely needed that. I've done this before where you forget to take
Aaron
00:31:04 – 00:31:05
a minute to, like, put
Caleb
00:31:05 – 00:31:06
your brain in the space. Yep. Yep.
Aaron
00:31:06 – 00:31:07
And then you go out there
Caleb
00:31:07 – 00:31:24
and you're feeling all good because you're feeling all good backstage, but then you, like, remember that you have to know, like, your intro bit. You have to be able to, like, you have to know what slides coming up to know these things. You can't be unprepared in that way. And so I've remembered this time and I just took, like, I think it was like 5 minutes of just cone of silence to, like, I
Aaron
00:31:24 – 00:31:26
say this, then I say that, then I say that, then
Caleb
00:31:26 – 00:31:29
and okay. And keep it fresh and then go, you know?
Aaron
00:31:29 – 00:31:30
So anyway,
Caleb
00:31:32 – 00:31:41
yeah, it's a good conference. There needs to be, a day to something so that people don't just disperse and stuff, and they kicked us out pretty early and stuff. I don't know. Yes. Right?
Caleb
00:31:41 – 00:31:43
Like don't they need a day to something?
Aaron
00:31:44 – 00:32:12
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Aaron
00:32:12 – 00:32:34
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Aaron
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Aaron
00:33:00 – 00:33:21
No credit card required. And for listeners of the podcast, you can use discount code mostly technical for 3 months free. We're super grateful to Spotsey for sponsoring the show and for all the all the work they do in open source. So go give mail coach a try at mail coach.app. Okay.
Aaron
00:33:21 – 00:33:26
Back to the show. So you wanna do more than a day one something. You wanna do notes? You wanna compare notes on
Caleb
00:33:26 – 00:33:27
Let's do notes. Yeah.
Aaron
00:33:27 – 00:33:29
Let's do notes. I have some notes,
Caleb
00:33:29 – 00:33:30
and Cool.
Aaron
00:33:31 – 00:33:38
I'll I'll start by saying best conference, most favorite conference, extremely well done. Love the conference.
Caleb
00:33:38 – 00:33:39
Same.
Aaron
00:33:39 – 00:33:51
Minor notes that I will, forward on to the production staff. I have promised them that I would give them my feedback. Loud music at the post conference hangout is real tough.
Caleb
00:33:51 – 00:33:53
At the, like, at the after dark, not in the
Aaron
00:33:53 – 00:33:54
thing? Either.
Caleb
00:33:54 – 00:33:54
Either. Yeah.
Aaron
00:33:54 – 00:33:58
At the at the mix and mingle or the after dark, it's tough.
Caleb
00:33:58 – 00:33:58
Yeah.
Aaron
00:33:58 – 00:34:07
Because that was the case this year and in Nashville. In Nashville, I felt so bad for the artist because he literally cleared the room when he went on the stage.
Caleb
00:34:07 – 00:34:09
Nashville was brutal.
Aaron
00:34:09 – 00:34:15
Everybody's like, well, I'm here. I I flew to America to talk to people. Right. Let's go where
Caleb
00:34:15 – 00:34:19
we talk. Yeah. And I don't fault people for that at all.
Aaron
00:34:19 – 00:34:21
Oh, no. I'm Yeah. I'm,
Caleb
00:34:22 – 00:34:23
with this that bad.
Aaron
00:34:23 – 00:34:35
Yeah. I'm I'm the first person to be like, hey. Let's step outside so we can talk. And so that would be I think that's maybe one of my number one pieces of feedback. Like, I love the vibe that it creates.
Aaron
00:34:35 – 00:34:42
The live music creates, like, an energetic vibe. Yeah. But I think it needs to be, like, a Spotify playlist played much lower.
Caleb
00:34:42 – 00:34:45
Yeah. Like, like, that's not right now?
Aaron
00:34:46 – 00:34:46
This is
Caleb
00:34:46 – 00:34:54
like a week. What? Like, 4 days since seeing home or something. This is my voice still. It's not like this normally, you know.
Aaron
00:34:54 – 00:34:59
The whole time I was there, I was sucking on cough drops because I was like, my voice is wrecked.
Caleb
00:34:59 – 00:35:01
Yeah. You're just yelling the whole time.
Aaron
00:35:01 – 00:35:13
Shouting at people the whole time. So that was that was tough. And then one other this this is along the same vector. I think we could have 1 fewer talk per day.
Caleb
00:35:13 – 00:35:28
Yeah. Yep. I think, one fewer talk per day would give it oh, and it it would build in more space for technical difficulties, obviously. Yeah. But it would just build in space, and and it obviously talks are what percentage of talks are so important.
Caleb
00:35:28 – 00:35:38
They need they are the the, you know, the backbone Right. Of the conference. And for so many people who are there solo and whatever Yes. The talks are what they're doing because
Aaron
00:35:38 – 00:35:38
Mhmm.
Caleb
00:35:38 – 00:35:52
The alternative is social awkwardness. Right. So talks are super important. But, yeah, like, having it more breathing room, definitely, definitely better. I mean, they we talked about this stuff, me and you.
Caleb
00:35:53 – 00:36:02
But, like, they used to be longer talks, so going down to 30 minutes was an innovation. I remember being, like, oh, this is so much better. Yep. It makes everyone's talk harder. Mhmm.
Caleb
00:36:02 – 00:36:05
It's much harder to do 30 minutes than it is 45.
Aaron
00:36:06 – 00:36:08
But That makes the audience's experience so much better.
Caleb
00:36:08 – 00:36:12
So much better. Yeah. Similarly, if they were 20 minutes, honestly, it'd probably be
Aaron
00:36:12 – 00:36:14
even better. That'd be crazy.
Caleb
00:36:15 – 00:36:23
Who doesn't who like, you're it should be, like, TED talk length, you know? Yeah. Little micro talks. Yeah. Because I mean, whatever.
Caleb
00:36:23 – 00:36:33
So, yes, agreed. One less talk per day music. Yeah. I mean, even if it's a hard problem to solve because you have no music.
Aaron
00:36:33 – 00:36:37
I know. That's you you wanted to be vibey. You wanted to be vibey.
Caleb
00:36:37 – 00:36:42
Just background. Whatever. Put on I think background. Radio, like Yeah. At an after dark event or something.
Caleb
00:36:42 – 00:36:43
Yeah. Even that.
Aaron
00:36:43 – 00:36:47
Well, you remember after dark Nashville, 3 Oh, that's interesting.
Caleb
00:36:47 – 00:36:47
Floors vastly bad.
Aaron
00:36:48 – 00:36:51
3 floors of of live bands and everyone in the room.
Caleb
00:36:51 – 00:36:53
Empty floors and a packed roof.
Aaron
00:36:53 – 00:36:57
Packed roof. Yeah. That was that was crazy. It was tough.
Caleb
00:36:57 – 00:37:00
That was much tougher than this. This was fine. Like Yeah.
Aaron
00:37:00 – 00:37:02
It was not ideal. Second day was totally fine.
Caleb
00:37:03 – 00:37:04
What second day?
Aaron
00:37:04 – 00:37:06
Jet Black. That was the artist's name.
Caleb
00:37:06 – 00:37:07
Oh, gosh.
Aaron
00:37:07 – 00:37:08
Cool name. Yeah.
Caleb
00:37:08 – 00:37:10
Right. Yes. Cool name. Cool name. Very cool.
Caleb
00:37:11 – 00:37:18
And, yeah, it it was fine. I was standing actually, like, not that far in front of him just talking with people. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb
00:37:18 – 00:37:33
Totally fine. Like, a single artist or whatever with, you know, one of those stand up speaker things, maybe got a loop pedal, and they're just providing ambiance, and people can tune in who want to tune in and hang out for a second or don't have somebody to talk to. But the whole band thing, they're just giant amplification.
Aaron
00:37:34 – 00:37:34
It's Right.
Caleb
00:37:34 – 00:37:49
It's just not it. And this is coming from somebody who hates playing. I hate playing bars. I haven't played that many of them, but it's the worst experience. Like, you know, I would much rather you're playing for a crowd that doesn't care about you, and it's the worst, so you're just background music.
Caleb
00:37:49 – 00:37:52
Anyway, yeah, those are 2 good notes.
Aaron
00:37:52 – 00:37:53
Good notes. Right?
Caleb
00:37:53 – 00:37:54
Good notes. Well, keep going.
Aaron
00:37:54 – 00:38:01
Oh, what are other notes? I think badges should have people's profile pictures on them or picture photos.
Caleb
00:38:01 – 00:38:07
Everybody's been saying that forever. Yeah. There's gotta be a a specific reason that they don't do that.
Aaron
00:38:07 – 00:38:22
I'm sure it's just logistics kind of a nightmare. You gotta go through the the file upload process. I mean, it turns what is a CSV mail merge of people's names into where do these files live? How do we get them to the printer? How's everyone you know what I mean?
Aaron
00:38:22 – 00:38:23
Yeah.
Caleb
00:38:23 – 00:38:27
That's unbelievably important. Unbelievable. That would be such
Aaron
00:38:27 – 00:38:28
that would be
Caleb
00:38:28 – 00:38:38
such a lever to pull. I know. There are people that I talked to that I'm sure it's same for you. It's like, I know your the it's I either know your face or Yep. So there's this.
Caleb
00:38:38 – 00:38:46
The there's the I know your face, but, or I know your face, and I'm looking at your name, but I can't place you because I'm not seeing your your profile pic. I'm not
Aaron
00:38:46 – 00:38:48
seeing your ad in the card. I'm just yeah.
Caleb
00:38:48 – 00:39:00
It's this, like, it's this pattern recognition. The only pattern recognition I have for you that's not matching, and I'm having this whole conversation, and it's getting increasingly uncomfortable. Mhmm. And yeah. So that stinks.
Caleb
00:39:00 – 00:39:04
And profile pictures would solve so much of that. So much of
Aaron
00:39:04 – 00:39:04
that. Yeah.
Caleb
00:39:04 – 00:39:06
Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah.
Aaron
00:39:06 – 00:39:14
You gotta do it. And then and then I didn't experience this, but as a man of the people, I understand the check-in line was just brutal.
Caleb
00:39:14 – 00:39:15
Brutal.
Aaron
00:39:15 – 00:39:15
And so
Caleb
00:39:15 – 00:39:17
Dude, half an hour. Brutality.
Aaron
00:39:18 – 00:39:42
I think check-in the night before. Like, you know, if there's a main hotel where people are arriving, you could knock out 40, 50, 60% of the check ins and get people their badges, and that gives them their swag bag to, like, put in the hotel room instead of carry around like a goofus. Yep. And then on the morning of, you get the people who weren't able to check-in at, you know, one of the given hotels, and I think that would speed everything up quite a bit.
Caleb
00:39:42 – 00:39:47
Yep. Yeah. That would be that'd be big. Yeah. Check-in was full of friction.
Caleb
00:39:48 – 00:39:52
I'm sure I have I know I have others. I just have none of them written down, but hotel proximity.
Aaron
00:39:52 – 00:39:57
Oh. I can't go back. Can't go back. It was super ideal.
Caleb
00:39:57 – 00:40:01
Has to be walk it has to be less than a 10 minute walk.
Aaron
00:40:01 – 00:40:07
Yeah. Can we talk about Deep Ellum? Perfect Yeah. Venue besides a little bit of heat, but perfect venue.
Caleb
00:40:08 – 00:40:14
Yes and no. I know. It's perfect in every way except the roads, bro.
Aaron
00:40:14 – 00:40:16
Oh, yeah. That one's on us.
Caleb
00:40:16 – 00:40:22
Freaking roads, man. How awesome they are or what? City. There are just giant roads everywhere.
Aaron
00:40:23 – 00:40:23
Yeah.
Caleb
00:40:23 – 00:40:27
Hell yeah. You have to cross a giant road. Everywhere you go.
Aaron
00:40:27 – 00:40:35
And don't be short because our trucks are tall. You'll get hit by a big truck. True. We can't see over the dash because the trucks are 6 feet tall. They are.
Caleb
00:40:35 – 00:40:46
Yeah. Yeah. It's brutal. So that Deep Ellum and the hotel and the just imagine that whole experience but with no giant road, like, just not everywhere. You know?
Caleb
00:40:46 – 00:40:47
It would be
Aaron
00:40:48 – 00:40:49
Europe. It would be Europe.
Caleb
00:40:49 – 00:41:03
It would be Europe. No. There's a lot of other places that are like that. Even, like, you know, New York is so much more walkable than that, you know, to me. Anyway, because it's just, like, double, triple lane each side situations
Aaron
00:41:03 – 00:41:04
Mhmm.
Caleb
00:41:04 – 00:41:10
Just cutting through everything. So Yep. And it ruins the vibe. It's like you're in a good vibe, and then all of a sudden you're, like, on a freeway.
Aaron
00:41:10 – 00:41:11
Hit by a truck.
Caleb
00:41:11 – 00:41:18
Yeah. Like, oh, I just got hit by a truck. Sit back. Oh, man. Yeah.
Caleb
00:41:18 – 00:41:28
So that that's my only yeah. Honestly, the weather wasn't an issue, and this was the roads aren't that big of an issue, but they ruined the vibe. They ruined the commute. They just they make you wanna take an Uber, because you don't wanna cross
Aaron
00:41:28 – 00:41:31
that road. But but but the walkability was great. So the
Caleb
00:41:31 – 00:41:33
walkability was great. You
Aaron
00:41:33 – 00:41:39
can walk from the hotel to the venue, to the taco shop, to the after dark, to Terry Black's, barbecue. You could do it all.
Caleb
00:41:39 – 00:41:42
Best. It's great. Best. It was great. Yes.
Caleb
00:41:42 – 00:41:48
And it and a perk of it is we felt like we were the only ones in town. Yes. You know? That was nice.
Aaron
00:41:48 – 00:41:58
And and I think you and I talked about this. You don't get pulled away. You don't get pulled away 25 minutes to one thing, and then you can't you can't be bought back to another hang. You know what I mean?
Caleb
00:41:58 – 00:42:06
Yep. Yeah. That's huge huge huge huge huge. Not having to get in an Uber to go to the after dark and then not having to get an Uber to go to your hotel.
Aaron
00:42:06 – 00:42:08
Mhmm. So huge. There's so
Caleb
00:42:08 – 00:42:15
many times where it's, like, oh, where are oh, I'm at the hotel. No problem. I'll walk over there. It's Yep. A 5 minute walk.
Caleb
00:42:15 – 00:42:17
If that Mhmm. And it's, like, I'll work
Aaron
00:42:17 – 00:42:22
in the shuffle. You're at the Kimpton Pimpton. Yes. Let's just I'll just walk over. Exactly.
Caleb
00:42:22 – 00:42:26
Yeah. Where where's everybody at? Oh, we're at the electric shuffle. Great. You know, I'll just walk over there.
Caleb
00:42:26 – 00:42:32
Even Yep. Everywhere we went, even the speaker dinner. Yep. And that was even closer to the other direction. Mhmm.
Caleb
00:42:32 – 00:42:40
It's just, like, I walked to every one of those places. I didn't end cost, like, as a cheapo. I remember last year at Lyricon. I didn't even think about it. I'm just lifting everywhere.
Aaron
00:42:40 – 00:42:41
I know.
Caleb
00:42:41 – 00:42:47
And then I get like, I look at this lift, like, the receipts on my, like, monthly little It's not great. And I'm like, damn. Like
Aaron
00:42:47 – 00:42:52
If you listen. That's a lot of money. Save it once, you earn it twice. That's what I'm saying.
Caleb
00:42:52 – 00:42:53
Tell me more about that.
Aaron
00:42:53 – 00:42:54
I'm not gonna tell
Caleb
00:42:54 – 00:42:57
you more about that. No. We're gonna end that right
Aaron
00:42:58 – 00:42:58
there. Oh, no.
Caleb
00:42:58 – 00:43:08
So, yes, huge walkability. So huge. I so that honestly, that's the thing I care about most. It's, like, whatever it is next year, please, just a nice hotel. It has to be nice.
Aaron
00:43:08 – 00:43:09
Has to be nice.
Caleb
00:43:09 – 00:43:10
Has to be nice.
Aaron
00:43:10 – 00:43:11
Come on. You have 35.
Caleb
00:43:12 – 00:43:15
It's got to be nice. Premier. You know? Yeah. It has to.
Caleb
00:43:15 – 00:43:35
And Kimpton, except for denying Adam Wadden his his room and Oh, yes. I heard that Adam. But for those who don't know that this is an actual thing, which I didn't, Adam had a room, just showed up at midnight or whatever, and they were, like, we gave away your room. So that can happen.
Aaron
00:43:35 – 00:43:42
They work on airline rules. We'll We'll sell a 106% and hope that some people don't show up. That, man. Don't know. That's crazy.
Caleb
00:43:42 – 00:43:42
I don't know if
Aaron
00:43:42 – 00:43:54
you can Here's here's the ultimate here's the ultimate dad move to prevent that. If you're gonna check-in super late, you call them at noon, and you say, hey. I'm coming. I just won't be there until 10 PM. Yeah.
Aaron
00:43:54 – 00:43:58
But I just wanna let you know I'm on my way. Yeah. That's, like, the that's the Uber dad move.
Caleb
00:43:59 – 00:44:04
That's just being a that's just being on top of things. Yeah. That's just being an experienced boy. You know?
Aaron
00:44:04 – 00:44:09
That's right. Which is dad. You know? That what what more is a dad besides an experienced boy?
Caleb
00:44:10 – 00:44:21
Boy. That's crazy. A dad. Oh, random. Can we shout out, quote at the conference, maybe one of them, that I it might have passed by if you didn't draw attention to it.
Caleb
00:44:21 – 00:44:29
Mhmm. But because Aaron watches all the talks, he's taking notes, he's got his bits ready for when he comes out on stage. Mhmm. Daniel Colbourne. Sheesh.
Caleb
00:44:30 – 00:44:31
Oh, Daniel.
Aaron
00:44:31 – 00:44:33
Wisdom. Sweet Daniel. Wisdom.
Caleb
00:44:33 – 00:44:42
His, In passing. In passing. Yep. Which he did tell me after, which we haven't even said the thing yet. He told me after that, like, you know, they were flashing him off stage.
Aaron
00:44:42 – 00:44:42
Yeah.
Caleb
00:44:42 – 00:44:44
So he had to blow through like
Aaron
00:44:44 – 00:44:46
the full eye pull,
Caleb
00:44:46 – 00:44:50
you know, all that stuff. Yeah. I had the flash. I know. Yeah.
Caleb
00:44:50 – 00:44:51
Trust me.
Aaron
00:44:51 – 00:44:51
I know. Hit the
Caleb
00:44:51 – 00:44:52
button.
Aaron
00:44:54 – 00:44:55
I got my shepherd's crook ready to pull
Caleb
00:44:55 – 00:45:09
them off. Yes. You know. Yeah. Trying to rush Bob's stage, we had to rush some stuff and, like, just kinda say some things that he could have said in a said he said profound things in passing that could have had a little more punch, but you helped him out with that.
Caleb
00:45:09 – 00:45:17
What what happened doesn't change. What it means does. Mhmm. And that will stay with me. It it is both Right.
Caleb
00:45:17 – 00:45:27
So unbelievably perfect for his talk and life. I'm not sure I've witnessed a better tie in No. Than that.
Aaron
00:45:27 – 00:45:38
That was tangential perfection. It it Literally perfection. One point in history, and that was the perfect point. And then ne'er the twain shall meet, off they go.
Caleb
00:45:38 – 00:45:39
Say no more, Daniel.
Aaron
00:45:39 – 00:45:49
That was the crossover between verbs and deep philosophy. It was amazing. Oh, it's it's one of those things that's so philosophically and just, like it's one of
Caleb
00:45:49 – 00:46:09
those things that that rings of of, like, true in a sense Exactly. You just kinda feel it, and you go, oh, but it it rings in that deep truth that you go, oh, this could apply to both technology Mhmm. And life because it is so fundamentally true. You know? It's just one of
Aaron
00:46:09 – 00:46:18
those things where you hear it like revelations. You know? Oh, he just discovered an ever existing truth and said it out loud. He didn't come up with that. That is a truth of the universe.
Aaron
00:46:19 – 00:46:21
It was great. Like, I love could have been watching,
Caleb
00:46:21 – 00:46:36
that could have been said anywhere. Almost about anything. Mhmm. You're watching National Geographic, and remember, what happens never changes, but what it means does, you know, or whatever you could and somebody could say that. And so just real quick for the listener in case you didn't see his talk.
Caleb
00:46:36 – 00:46:42
His talks on event sourcing. Verbs is the tool that he likes to do it. Yeah. It's not event sourcing, what it is, but
Aaron
00:46:42 – 00:46:43
it's not It's new event source.
Caleb
00:46:43 – 00:46:53
It's new event sourcing. We're trying not to say event sourcing. It's basically, like, don't don't don't, whatever your your users do is what matters. Store that.
Aaron
00:46:53 – 00:46:53
Mhmm.
Caleb
00:46:53 – 00:47:10
Then you can change what it means, meaning, like, you know, your database tables and columns, all that mutable state. You can change the form of that because that's what your interface reflects, which is ever changing, but the but it is cool to at least hear that, like, yes, everything is changing in apps. Right? Like, isn't that Mhmm. You're optimizing for change.
Caleb
00:47:10 – 00:47:22
That's that's one of those evergreen programming wisdom big four things, optimizing for change. Everything's about change. But there is something that doesn't change, and it is what your users did. Mhmm. You know?
Caleb
00:47:22 – 00:47:26
And that's really cool, and it's a cool way to think about it. Shout out to d.
Aaron
00:47:26 – 00:47:33
Shout out to d. Cole. Shout out to the d. Just like a 100% true in real life. The past never changes.
Aaron
00:47:33 – 00:47:35
Only your interpretation of it and what it means
Caleb
00:47:35 – 00:47:36
to you does.
Aaron
00:47:36 – 00:47:39
Changes. And it changes often. And
Caleb
00:47:39 – 00:47:42
that is yeah. Crushed it. Good job. Great.
Aaron
00:47:42 – 00:47:43
Good job, Daniel.
Caleb
00:47:43 – 00:47:54
Good job, Daniel. And, well, whatever. His talk was the most entertaining thing in the world. Yes. He has a way of being so excited and lovable.
Caleb
00:47:54 – 00:47:55
Yes.
Aaron
00:47:55 – 00:47:58
Shaggy dog. Yeah. Which isn't a quality you always see
Caleb
00:47:58 – 00:48:11
in person. This and then not in the way that, like, he's a different person on stage. He is still that person, but, right, like Yep. In person, he's much more discerning and whatever. He'll he just you know, whatever.
Caleb
00:48:11 – 00:48:26
Everybody knows his in person is what he was on the last time he was on the show, this last Yep. Episode. But on stage, he has just this extreme energy and lovability that is cool to see, and it's like Yep. There's there's more to Daniel even than than what I know. You know?
Aaron
00:48:26 – 00:48:32
So my wife watched to to her great credit, just a a long suffering saint. She watched She
Caleb
00:48:32 – 00:48:32
watched a lot.
Aaron
00:48:33 – 00:48:33
A dog.
Caleb
00:48:33 – 00:48:35
She yeah. She was feeding me She's a Francis.
Aaron
00:48:35 – 00:48:53
Did you catch that part? She watched many of many bits of many talks, and she texted me at one point and said, did one of the speakers do their whole talk with sunglasses on his head? And I think that was Daniel, and I was like, yeah. That guy's pretty chill. Like, he's pretty laid back.
Aaron
00:48:53 – 00:48:55
He's pretty easygoing. And the fact
Caleb
00:48:55 – 00:49:00
that Somebody sat, like, right backstage before he went on, somebody was like, dude, your
Aaron
00:49:00 – 00:49:03
your sunglasses on your head, and he was like, oh, oh, yeah.
Caleb
00:49:03 – 00:49:07
And I think he he said he was gonna take them off. I don't think he did. So who knows?
Aaron
00:49:07 – 00:49:09
I was wondering if it was intentional. Who knows?
Caleb
00:49:09 – 00:49:16
I wear a backwards hat on stage. Yeah. It's I could see doing that on purpose, but go on. And the the
Aaron
00:49:17 – 00:49:32
I know that I know that, John was just sitting in his seat white knuckling. John Rudolph was just watching him white knuckling as as Daniel's giving this talk because it's, like, no big deal. Just the future of our business and our livelihoods on the line. And Daniel
Caleb
00:49:33 – 00:49:34
Daniel. Yes. John.
Aaron
00:49:34 – 00:49:44
Daniel's like, whoops. I accidentally dropped the migrations table. I wasn't supposed to do that here. I'm gonna do it locally and then copy and paste as a SQL sequel insert and then run it again just like that blew that blew
Caleb
00:49:44 – 00:49:46
my mind. I thought, man, I
Aaron
00:49:46 – 00:49:57
know that I knew that he had planned, like, one of the bugs, you know, the fake bug or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. But this was clearly not planned, and he was like, I think I know what I did here.
Caleb
00:49:58 – 00:50:05
Jeez, man. I mean, it really just becomes I mean, you know why people enjoy watching sports. It's just this constant, like, oh, are they gonna make it? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Caleb
00:50:05 – 00:50:09
I bought it. Exactly. It was that. Just like, oh, he's gonna
Aaron
00:50:09 – 00:50:09
make it.
Caleb
00:50:09 – 00:50:10
Is he gonna make it? Please make it. Please make it.
Aaron
00:50:10 – 00:50:12
Please make it. Please make it. Oh,
Caleb
00:50:12 – 00:50:16
no. It got worse. It's worse. It literally got worse.
Aaron
00:50:16 – 00:50:21
It's not gonna make it. There's no way he's gonna make it. Yep. He made it.
Caleb
00:50:21 – 00:50:22
You know? That's when
Aaron
00:50:22 – 00:50:26
he puts the bobsled on his shoulder and carries it across the finish line. He made it.
Caleb
00:50:26 – 00:50:29
I love it. Right? Like, just the best.
Aaron
00:50:29 – 00:50:31
That's so good. Good job, Daniel.
Caleb
00:50:31 – 00:50:36
Can just totally, unravel on stage better than Daniel Goldberg.
Aaron
00:50:36 – 00:50:37
Yeah. He's pretty good at that.
Caleb
00:50:37 – 00:50:40
Because he doesn't unravel. Yeah. So,
Aaron
00:50:41 – 00:50:42
bravo, Daniel.
Caleb
00:50:42 – 00:50:51
Bravo, Daniel. I think I thought I hit there's one other, like, subtle note that I thought you should type this up, but it's like, who do you tell this note to? You know? Tell tell
Aaron
00:50:51 – 00:50:55
it to me. I'll tell it to the people. I don't remember. Well Who do you tell?
Caleb
00:50:55 – 00:50:57
Where do you put stuff? There's is there comment cards or something?
Aaron
00:50:58 – 00:51:16
I don't know, but I I have an email, drafted to Aspen, who is the production manager to the stars, and Tara, who works with Aspen, they're the events team. Because I know they're having a a, like, a post Lyricon meeting to talk about what went right, what went wrong, etcetera.
Caleb
00:51:17 – 00:51:27
Yep. Yeah. That's really important. That that's something that I felt like missed in previous years and with other conferences. It's like, if you're there's certain things that if you're an audience member, you see so clearly.
Aaron
00:51:27 – 00:51:27
If you're
Caleb
00:51:27 – 00:51:37
an organizer that you're completely blind to. Totally. It's like so critical to hear those things if you don't have a vector for that. Oh. It's just, so lost.
Caleb
00:51:37 – 00:51:38
Especially, like
Aaron
00:51:38 – 00:51:40
Number 1. Number 1 comment.
Caleb
00:51:41 – 00:51:41
Yeah.
Aaron
00:51:41 – 00:51:44
Move the vendors out of the speaker room.
Caleb
00:51:44 – 00:51:46
Oh, yeah. True. So true.
Aaron
00:51:46 – 00:51:48
That was it. That's number 1.
Caleb
00:51:48 – 00:51:51
Although it did work after that. Be I mean, I agree.
Aaron
00:51:51 – 00:52:05
Because the vendors sacrificed themselves upon the pyre of silence. Yeah. They just agreed not to talk to anyone during talks, which is, like, very generous of them, but not not, like, probably what they wanted. Right.
Caleb
00:52:05 – 00:52:13
I mean, it yeah. It'd be great if they were just down at that entrance floor and the doors were closed. You know?
Aaron
00:52:13 – 00:52:16
Or put them in the secret room where the talks are being live
Caleb
00:52:16 – 00:52:20
streamed. Think about if I was a vendor Yeah. I wouldn't wanna be in that secret room.
Aaron
00:52:20 – 00:52:21
You wouldn't wanna be in
Caleb
00:52:21 – 00:52:22
the secret room? No way.
Aaron
00:52:22 – 00:52:24
I think it would be fine because Maybe
Caleb
00:52:24 – 00:52:25
it would be.
Aaron
00:52:25 – 00:52:31
Still we still have to they everybody still has to get their bingo stamps to win, you know, a MacBook Pro or whatever.
Caleb
00:52:31 – 00:52:32
Right.
Aaron
00:52:32 – 00:52:38
True. Everybody still needs to go visit the vendors. Vendors have elephants. Vendors have giveaways and, like Do you
Caleb
00:52:38 – 00:52:46
know how many submissions there were for the bingo card? I don't. Because that would be telling. It's, like, were there a 100 people, or were there 700 people?
Aaron
00:52:46 – 00:52:48
That's a good that's a good question. I'd say
Caleb
00:52:48 – 00:52:56
if there were above 500 people, then that is a smash hit. Yeah. And then you can put them anywhere because you'll get they'll come to your booth. You know? Yeah.
Aaron
00:52:56 – 00:53:09
I I do think that that secret room, it would have worked just fine. I I am hesitant to say put the vendors in an annex without knowing that the annex will be highly trafficked. I think that's the problem.
Caleb
00:53:09 – 00:53:16
Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. It it just feels like you have such a better you wanna be in the path of in and out.
Caleb
00:53:16 – 00:53:17
You know?
Aaron
00:53:17 – 00:53:19
Like, you just wanna Maybe we could do that
Caleb
00:53:19 – 00:53:26
especially for entrance. Imagine just on the conference day entering. Mhmm. Crickets for vendors, you know, if they were in the back there. Crickets.
Aaron
00:53:26 – 00:53:31
Unless all specialty coffee goes back where the vendors are as well. There you go.
Caleb
00:53:31 – 00:53:43
Yes. You have 2 birds. You need a mechanical you need it built into the mech the mechanism. It needs to be something that there's actual flow Yep. Built in, and coffee is the way to do that for sure.
Aaron
00:53:43 – 00:53:54
Because then then you get the beam grinders you get the beam grinders out of the speaker room True. Or out of, like, the main venue, and you get the vendors out, and the coffee pulls them back towards the vendors. So
Caleb
00:53:55 – 00:54:01
It's so tricky because you also want the main stage well attended. But if the main stage is what you go through to get there, it's like,
Aaron
00:54:01 – 00:54:02
You do.
Caleb
00:54:02 – 00:54:07
It's tricky, man. It is. It's tricky. Conferences are tricky. But Yeah.
Aaron
00:54:07 – 00:54:12
I would I wouldn't wanna be the organizer. I just wanna opine on things and then say, good luck. Have fun.
Caleb
00:54:12 – 00:54:13
Oh. Way
Aaron
00:54:13 – 00:54:26
better. I can't do all that work. Are you crazy? No. They, I will say they they adapted extremely quickly and extremely well to the whole vendors, like everybody talking situation.
Caleb
00:54:26 – 00:54:27
Yep.
Aaron
00:54:27 – 00:54:28
I was impressed by that.
Caleb
00:54:28 – 00:54:31
There if you weren't there, folks, it was brutal.
Aaron
00:54:31 – 00:54:33
It was kinda it was kinda loud.
Caleb
00:54:33 – 00:54:38
I remember standing there watching somebody's talk and just feeling so bad for them, like
Aaron
00:54:39 – 00:54:40
Feeling so bad.
Caleb
00:54:40 – 00:54:41
This is Filo's up there
Aaron
00:54:41 – 00:54:48
trying to talk, and there's, like, a murmur, a roar A roar. Talking. Literally a roar. Yes.
Caleb
00:54:48 – 00:54:55
Like, oh, it would be so it'd be like trying to give a talk with an echo in your own ear where you can barely think
Aaron
00:54:55 – 00:54:55
Yes.
Caleb
00:54:55 – 00:54:58
Because you're just fixated on that. Like, it just I don't know. I don't know.
Aaron
00:54:58 – 00:55:02
And also you're a little bit embarrassed that, like, nobody Yeah. Is listening.
Caleb
00:55:02 – 00:55:07
Right. Yeah. Yeah. That really stinks. But it was policed and
Aaron
00:55:07 – 00:55:07
It was. Yeah.
Caleb
00:55:08 – 00:55:10
Was handled. And it was handled. So Yep.
Aaron
00:55:10 – 00:55:18
I sick I sicked Tom on him. You know, you don't wanna you don't wanna go against Tom. You don't wanna face Tom. I was, like, hey, Tom. You gotta figure this out, and Tom
Caleb
00:55:18 – 00:55:22
figured it out. Yeah. He's the guy to figure that out.
Aaron
00:55:22 – 00:55:23
He's got that presence. He does
Caleb
00:55:23 – 00:55:24
have that
Aaron
00:55:24 – 00:55:26
presence. Tom. Tom. Good guy, Tom.
Caleb
00:55:26 – 00:55:26
Tom's new. Tom's
Aaron
00:55:26 – 00:55:27
new. Tom's new.
Caleb
00:55:27 – 00:55:44
Tom's new. Tom's one of those people who's, like, you know, a person to know, but is brand new and, you know, and I just had no idea Yep. Of, like, Tom, you know, but, like, he's a real so low key. He's like he's like a guy to know, you know, but he's just Tom.
Aaron
00:55:44 – 00:55:51
What what is it they say about real, they say this about lasagna. Real g's move in silence. You know? And that's that's Tom.
Caleb
00:55:51 – 00:55:53
Well, I just He's just a force
Aaron
00:55:53 – 00:55:54
moving through the crowd.
Caleb
00:55:54 – 00:56:07
How you know what it is? It's like, I didn't know how important he is to the Laravel team, you know, and the Laravel company. And that's something that I, like, quickly realized the difference between people like me Mhmm. Who aren't in the team at all
Aaron
00:56:07 – 00:56:08
Same. And
Caleb
00:56:08 – 00:56:11
just, like like, oh, hey, Tom, and oh, hey, Vasey, and oh, hey, Rant. Yeah.
Aaron
00:56:11 – 00:56:12
It's just, like, oh, hey.
Caleb
00:56:12 – 00:56:22
Just, like, people, you know, just other people to meet, but the people inside understand what's going on and who Tom is. So that, yeah, it's cool. But seems like a great guy. Seems super
Aaron
00:56:22 – 00:56:31
I was accidentally on LinkedIn the other day, and I saw Tom. Tom's the president of Laravel. There you go. President and COO.
Caleb
00:56:31 – 00:56:33
Gotcha. Yeah. Exactly. Right?
Aaron
00:56:33 – 00:56:38
See? Two titles. Literally the president. One of which is president.
Caleb
00:56:38 – 00:56:46
One of which is president. Exactly. And that's the final yes. To people not in Laravel, that is not knowledge. You know?
Caleb
00:56:46 – 00:56:49
Oh, Tom and Hank and new other faith in David. New faces at Laravel.
Aaron
00:56:49 – 00:56:52
Good to see you. Hey. Hey. Good to see you. I'm Caleb.
Aaron
00:56:52 – 00:56:55
Have you heard of me? Do you know who I am? Have you met me?
Caleb
00:56:57 – 00:57:06
Actually, he he said he introduced himself at basketball. He had he just, like, wiped my, the floor with my face, and he, like, beaten down.
Aaron
00:57:06 – 00:57:07
As he does.
Caleb
00:57:07 – 00:57:09
Yeah. And he, like, wiped the blood streak off
Aaron
00:57:09 – 00:57:10
Mhmm. And
Caleb
00:57:10 – 00:57:23
said said, hey, Tom, you know, nice to meet you. And he's, like, nice to meet you. Wiping blood out of my eyes. Right after he spit on me, I think to cool me down. Right.
Caleb
00:57:23 – 00:57:33
But he reached down, picked me up and said, yeah. He's like, nice to meet you, whatever. And, and he's like, I'm excited for your talk or something.
Aaron
00:57:34 – 00:57:35
And and I was like, oh, what
Caleb
00:57:35 – 00:57:38
do you yeah. It's like, okay. Like, cool. Yeah. Thanks.
Caleb
00:57:38 – 00:57:38
You know? And he's like, yeah.
Aaron
00:57:38 – 00:57:40
Just another fan.
Caleb
00:57:40 – 00:57:43
You do right. He's like, you you do a great job or something like that. And then
Aaron
00:57:43 – 00:57:44
I was like,
Caleb
00:57:45 – 00:57:51
I I said, you've seen my talks? You know? And he's like, yeah, I watched everyone or something like that. You know? I don't know if everyone, but it yeah.
Caleb
00:57:52 – 00:57:57
Like like, oh, yeah. Real g. Part of the job. Yeah. And I was like, oh, oh, yeah.
Caleb
00:57:57 – 00:58:07
You're a total outsider. Now you're on you're like a big man, you know? And, and he's you know, he did the work. Like, let's know even more than the product. Let's know the community Yep.
Caleb
00:58:07 – 00:58:10
And what's going on outside there. So another one of those,
Aaron
00:58:10 – 00:58:14
Nothing nothing speaks to my my heart more than
Caleb
00:58:14 – 00:58:15
d u t y.
Aaron
00:58:16 – 00:58:18
Someone says, part of the job.
Caleb
00:58:18 – 00:58:18
Part of the job.
Aaron
00:58:18 – 00:58:22
Just doing my job. A man a man of duty and honor.
Caleb
00:58:22 – 00:58:23
That's right.
Aaron
00:58:23 – 00:58:24
We love that.
Caleb
00:58:24 – 00:58:25
Part of the job.
Aaron
00:58:25 – 00:58:26
Part of the job.
Caleb
00:58:26 – 00:58:32
Yeah. So that's cool. So, yeah, things are but there's so there's a, you know, there's a video that's coming out soon. Right?
Aaron
00:58:32 – 00:58:41
There is. There's an interview with you and Tom. Yours truly, which is, like, folksy way of saying me. There's an interview with me and, Taylor coming out soon.
Caleb
00:58:41 – 00:58:41
You and Taylor?
Aaron
00:58:41 – 00:58:43
Yeah. Okay. Me and Taylor. No Tom. When
Caleb
00:58:43 – 00:58:44
does that come out?
Aaron
00:58:44 – 00:58:51
I think that comes out today is September 2nd. I think that comes out maybe Thursday. I think it's September 5th or something like that.
Caleb
00:58:51 – 00:58:51
Okay.
Aaron
00:58:52 – 00:59:12
So I'll give you a little behind the scenes. I won't tell you what the content is, but Taylor rolled over to Dallas. Steve flew down to Dallas, and we did this video and, you know, we we we set up in the apartment. There's, like, a, gathering space in the apartment where I studio, and we kinda just blocked it off. We just pretended it was ours.
Caleb
00:59:12 – 00:59:13
So we blocked
Aaron
00:59:13 – 00:59:13
it off.
Caleb
00:59:13 – 00:59:15
Ask or anything? You just, like,
Aaron
00:59:15 – 00:59:21
No. I'm friendly with the manager, and I was like, hey. Here's the deal. He's like, that's fine. Just, you know, put up a sign or something.
Caleb
00:59:21 – 00:59:22
It's great. Yeah.
Aaron
00:59:22 – 00:59:36
You know, it's the middle of a middle of, like, a Tuesday or whatever. Sure. And Taylor finally gets there, and I, like, walk out of the apartment, like, the building to go find him because, you know, apartments are just a bizan team. You can't find anything. And
Caleb
00:59:36 – 00:59:36
Yeah.
Aaron
00:59:36 – 00:59:42
I'd see him walking down the street. He's got his laptop and a 12 pack of Coke 0 under his arm.
Caleb
00:59:43 – 00:59:43
Come on.
Aaron
00:59:43 – 00:59:45
He brought his own 12.
Caleb
00:59:45 – 00:59:47
That's great. That's great.
Aaron
00:59:47 – 00:59:49
I was like, dude, you brought your own 12 pack?
Caleb
00:59:49 – 00:59:55
He's like, yeah. I didn't know how long we would be. Oh my god. That's hilarious.
Aaron
00:59:55 – 00:59:56
I know. It's so funny.
Caleb
00:59:56 – 00:59:57
Oh, it's very funny. Yeah.
Aaron
00:59:57 – 01:00:06
So that comes out soon. It's great. It's fun. It's my first, like, it's my first, like, you know, sit down 2 person live interview type thing.
Caleb
01:00:06 – 01:00:07
Yeah.
Aaron
01:00:07 – 01:00:12
So that'll be that'll be fun to see. Yeah. Great. Okay. Looking forward to it.
Aaron
01:00:12 – 01:00:14
Looking forward to it.
Caleb
01:00:14 – 01:00:16
Yep. Leaving it leaving it at that, Aaron.
Aaron
01:00:16 – 01:00:17
Let's leave it at that. Yep.
Caleb
01:00:17 – 01:00:21
Leaving it at that. Yeah. So so that's Lyricon here.
Aaron
01:00:21 – 01:00:25
That's Lyricon. Do you wanna talk you wanna talk about your talk, and Oh. And what you're thinking currently
Caleb
01:00:26 – 01:00:27
mention it. We should. Yeah.
Aaron
01:00:27 – 01:00:30
The flux situation, Yeah. Fortunately, having a it's
Caleb
01:00:30 – 01:00:44
times like these that having a podcast is, a really great thing for me. It reminds me that people listen to it, and I can act it's actually a way to get, like, really good feedback. You know? So that's been pretty awesome. But yeah.
Caleb
01:00:44 – 01:00:59
Okay. So here's bay here's the gist. Caleb goes off and thinks he's making the coolest thing in the world for months months months. Every other day, I feel like I'm either discovering something cool or innovating in some cool way that I'm just foaming to the mouth to share with people, and I go, no, no, save it. Save it.
Caleb
01:00:59 – 01:01:01
You know, make a splash, like,
Aaron
01:01:01 – 01:01:04
you know, put it out there with a splash. You make a splash,
Caleb
01:01:04 – 01:01:13
you know? So toiling away in obscurity for many, many, many months and giving a talk on it, you know, prepping the talk pretty hardcore, put a ton into that talk,
Aaron
01:01:13 – 01:01:13
you
Caleb
01:01:13 – 01:01:23
know, give the talk and, feel like I smashed it. You know? It's just like, yeah. That that's this is what I I wanted to do. I got the applause is at the times.
Caleb
01:01:23 – 01:01:57
I wanted the applause is, and people were pumped about it. I knew that I was charging for something that that, like, at many points, I thought was gonna be free, and I'd forgotten that I that that was, like, an expectation shift, you know. I'd just forgotten that because, you know, you make a decision, you move on, and you think everybody understands the decision you made, whatever. So launch the thing, really pumped about it, and then there's just, like, little things from people, like, oh, so how do you feel about, you know, the reception or how do you you know, things like that or, like, are you are you happy about and it's, like, well, you're testing happy about
Aaron
01:01:57 – 01:01:58
yeah.
Caleb
01:01:58 – 01:01:59
Instead of saying, like,
Aaron
01:01:59 – 01:02:03
dude, you smashed it. So sick. So pump flux is nuts.
Caleb
01:02:03 – 01:02:04
It was a lot of, like, yeah, how do you
Aaron
01:02:04 – 01:02:07
feel about that? Or, like, how do you feel? You know, and I should have taken I guess
Caleb
01:02:07 – 01:02:15
I knew some amount was up because I heard some somebody or a few people told me, like, yeah, you know, there was some shit in the comments. Can I can I say that on the show? I'm sorry.
Aaron
01:02:15 – 01:02:16
Sure.
Caleb
01:02:16 – 01:02:22
Yeah. Is it it's not folksy enough? No, you can say that. Okay. And yeah.
Caleb
01:02:22 – 01:02:34
So, people were like, you're getting some shit in the comments about, you know, pricing, whatever. And at this moment, I'm like, I just displayed the value. I think I did it well enough, you know, and people are pumped about it. Of course, people want something to be free.
Aaron
01:02:34 – 01:02:35
Of course.
Caleb
01:02:35 – 01:02:47
It's not free. And, like, yeah, like, we how many it's the LiveWire keynote, and it's a paid thing. How many keynotes have you seen that have been a paid thing? Like Mhmm. That's it does not mean a keynote does not mean it can't be a paid thing.
Caleb
01:02:47 – 01:02:55
I watched Nova drop. I watched Spark drop. I watched all those things drop, and they're paid, and we all clap. It was like, this is great, and we all bought it. And it's Mhmm.
Caleb
01:02:55 – 01:02:59
Like, whatever. You know? Sometimes it's free. Sometimes it's paid. Thought no problem.
Caleb
01:02:59 – 01:03:13
And the next day I woke up and I started looking at some of these comments and it's like, oh, and then it starts to sink in. And so Taylor shouts me out in a tweet and goes, flux is super impressive. Here's a link to the pre order. And just heaps of people. What is impressive about this?
Caleb
01:03:13 – 01:03:23
There's 9 components, you know, heaps and heaps. And and they whatever. I I impulse put a preorder page up the day before. The day before. The day before.
Caleb
01:03:23 – 01:03:32
So the day before during the conference, Logan crashed came up to me and was like, you would be, silly guy. I have a preorder. Good guy. He's he's the best guy. I mean, I love Logan.
Caleb
01:03:32 – 01:03:34
Love Logan. Good job, Logan. Love Logan. This is
Aaron
01:03:34 – 01:03:35
your fault, but good job, Logan. It's your fault.
Caleb
01:03:35 – 01:03:47
Right? Logan You ruined me. Oh, so, like, he tells me this and I'm like, Logan, you're totally right. I need to have a pre order. I'm leaving, you know, money on the table.
Caleb
01:03:47 – 01:03:52
It's he's like, give some put something in people's hands that they can do something with after they're really excited. And I'm like, you're totally right.
Aaron
01:03:52 – 01:03:54
It's a killer instinct. He was right.
Caleb
01:03:54 – 01:03:59
Yeah. So I find one of those one off speaker rooms, and I call Hugo. I'm like, Hugo, can you take a call right now?
Aaron
01:03:59 – 01:03:59
Mhmm.
Caleb
01:03:59 – 01:04:13
I call Hugo, and he I'm like, here's the deal. You know? Like, we need to have a preorder page. Like, we strategize a little bit, and then I just start cranking on my laptop. I rip out everything on the site except for the landing page, and then we make this preorder page.
Caleb
01:04:14 – 01:04:18
I rip out parts of the code that it that, like, issue licenses and everything and just get
Aaron
01:04:18 – 01:04:20
it Mhmm. Stripped down, tested a few times.
Caleb
01:04:20 – 01:04:28
Okay. Good. And then put it public the night before, and people started buying it. There was, like, $1,000 in sales the night before. Just I didn't even know people had a URL.
Caleb
01:04:28 – 01:04:33
Yeah. So so, like, $1,000 in sales comes in overnight. I'm feeling really good about this. It's, like, this is great.
Aaron
01:04:34 – 01:04:35
But then we need to
Caleb
01:04:35 – 01:04:37
talk about this. This is a complaint of layer 2.
Aaron
01:04:37 – 01:04:40
Don't don't wag your finger at me. I didn't do this. Whatever's false.
Caleb
01:04:40 – 01:04:41
Whatever's about
Aaron
01:04:41 – 01:04:41
to happen.
Caleb
01:04:41 – 01:04:42
It's pure fault.
Aaron
01:04:42 – 01:04:43
It's not my fault.
Caleb
01:04:43 – 01:04:54
The finger came out, and it pointed at you. Seriously. So so the you know, I did the talk, but loved it. Yeah. Then talk's gone.
Caleb
01:04:54 – 01:04:54
Talk's gone.
Aaron
01:04:54 – 01:04:58
So Taylor tweets out the link being a bro. Yep. Good. Good. Good.
Caleb
01:04:58 – 01:05:07
Nobody sees nobody people just see this link. They go to this site. It's a temporary preorder page, and they're royally pissed, and now they're smearing me all over Twitter and Reddit.
Aaron
01:05:07 – 01:05:10
And Reddit. A total oh, yeah. Total smear campaign.
Caleb
01:05:11 – 01:05:27
Just gruesome. Mhmm. And so I emergency recorded a video the next morning from the hotel, trashed the first one where I'm, like, you all suck. Right. Then recorded the one where it's, like, I barely am even paying attention to you guys being the worst.
Caleb
01:05:27 – 01:05:28
You know?
Aaron
01:05:28 – 01:05:30
Are people talking to me? I haven't seen it.
Caleb
01:05:30 – 01:05:31
Oh, yeah. Oh, no.
Aaron
01:05:31 – 01:05:34
I'm, like, I'm, like, I'm, like, I'm, like, I'm, like, I'm, like, I'm, like, I'm, like, there's some clarification
Caleb
01:05:34 – 01:05:44
that's needed. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So yeah. Then record and that and since that has been sort of that's the only thing out there that demonstrates what's
Aaron
01:05:44 – 01:05:47
So your beef with Laracon is that they took your talk down?
Caleb
01:05:47 – 01:06:01
It's that they took I was going to record my talk the day before. Yeah. They have ready an email out, but I'm so busy, and I'm, like, they they said they're gonna stream it. It's, like, oh, it's gonna be on YouTube. Yeah.
Caleb
01:06:01 – 01:06:09
So why would I do that? Yeah. So I'll instead, I'll just tweet I'll just email out the link to my talk Sure. And then it'll be there. And then it's perfect.
Caleb
01:06:09 – 01:06:13
Right? Perfect. No. It streamed live, and then it was
Aaron
01:06:13 – 01:06:14
autumn. And then it was
Caleb
01:06:14 – 01:06:16
it was oopsie doopsie because all
Aaron
01:06:16 – 01:06:18
the walk in music got copyright stricken.
Caleb
01:06:18 – 01:06:21
And here's my beef, Aaron Francis. Tell me.
Aaron
01:06:21 – 01:06:28
We knew that the day before. Oh, yeah. What? Who why did this happen? Like, if we knew that,
Caleb
01:06:28 – 01:06:32
save the 10 seconds of Blink 182. No one needs it.
Aaron
01:06:32 – 01:06:33
I need it.
Caleb
01:06:34 – 01:06:35
No one needs it.
Aaron
01:06:35 – 01:06:41
That's a good question. Here's I don't know. Here's my, that's fault. Yeah. It's Logan's fault, honestly.
Caleb
01:06:42 – 01:06:43
It's Logan's fault.
Aaron
01:06:43 – 01:06:44
Here's my outsider's point of view.
Caleb
01:06:44 – 01:06:45
But my fault.
Aaron
01:06:46 – 01:06:53
Yeah. That is a healthy way to approach life. I think it was probably the livestream was a bonus. It was never promised. It was never guaranteed.
Caleb
01:06:53 – 01:06:53
And we
Aaron
01:06:53 – 01:06:59
just, like Taylor was just, like, hey, by the way, we're doing it. So if it gets stricken, math, it was a bonus it was a bonus
Caleb
01:06:59 – 01:07:00
to start
Aaron
01:07:00 – 01:07:01
with. That's that's my guess.
Caleb
01:07:01 – 01:07:14
Okay. And nobody and I wouldn't care. Nobody would really care much. It it wouldn't be an expectation that people would have per se, and they wouldn't care much unless there was a smear campaign. I could step on to a different
Aaron
01:07:14 – 01:07:16
kind of a niche use case, honestly.
Caleb
01:07:16 – 01:07:20
Niche thing. Yeah. But in yeah. Whatever. Okay.
Caleb
01:07:20 – 01:07:22
So that's my very specific beef
Aaron
01:07:22 – 01:07:22
Yeah.
Caleb
01:07:23 – 01:07:24
With Laracon is I'll make
Aaron
01:07:24 – 01:07:27
sure to definitely pass that one on. Copyright.
Caleb
01:07:27 – 01:07:30
I do wonder if other people would care. Is this a thing that nobody else would care?
Aaron
01:07:31 – 01:07:40
I don't think anyone else would care because in past experience, the Laracon US talks get turned around in, like, less than a week.
Caleb
01:07:40 – 01:07:41
Right. Yeah.
Aaron
01:07:41 – 01:07:48
I would be shocked if those talks aren't out this week. And I think for most people's use cases, that's fast enough.
Caleb
01:07:48 – 01:07:48
I think Yeah.
Aaron
01:07:48 – 01:07:55
Anyone that was watching live fast. Anyone that was watching live that then got cut off because of copyright, they're probably frustrated.
Caleb
01:07:56 – 01:07:58
But I would imagine Which I think Taylor is among them.
Aaron
01:07:58 – 01:08:06
I think I think Taylor's got cut off. Yeah. Yeah. But I would I would imagine, people are okay with the turnaround time. That's just Yes.
Caleb
01:08:06 – 01:08:20
Okay. Yep. So, anyway, that's that's the story, and then that's the only thing that's been out on the Internet since my tweet, and it's been good now because, like, literally, some people apologized. Some trolls apologized. Woah.
Caleb
01:08:20 – 01:08:32
That's awesome. Like, an actual troll who I who just writes on the tweet, like, I think I was definitely too harsh. Like, this looks awesome. You obviously put a lot more work into this than I thought. There's way more components than I thought.
Caleb
01:08:33 – 01:08:43
There's 24 component pages. It's not even the amount of components. It's, like, there's so much there. It's missing, like, a date picker, which a lot of them don't even have a date picker. You know?
Caleb
01:08:43 – 01:08:49
Mhmm. But it's got pretty much everything else. And so, anyway, literally apologized. And I was like
Aaron
01:08:49 – 01:08:50
That rules.
Caleb
01:08:50 – 01:08:56
Exactly. And my my reply to him was very, like, you are forgiven, dude. Like, I you know? Yeah. Like, thank whatever.
Caleb
01:08:56 – 01:08:58
Then I look at his profile.
Aaron
01:08:58 – 01:08:58
Oh, no.
Caleb
01:08:58 – 01:09:14
I'm like, well, let's just see what you did say, and I'm like, dude, hate your guts forever. Never forgive me. Like, you're the worst. You have the worst instincts. You're such a bad person that something like this happens, and you make it your I so I blocked 2 people.
Aaron
01:09:14 – 01:09:18
Nice. Which level of blocking? Do we? Gotta block. Got to block.
Aaron
01:09:18 – 01:09:19
Listening to?
Caleb
01:09:19 – 01:09:25
Oh, levels. So he doesn't block anybody. Yeah. He mute he just muted, like, 50,000 people. I think that's what he set on live.
Aaron
01:09:25 – 01:09:32
He actually has started blocking for AI generated replies. I've saw I saw that recently. So if he's one of those tools to, like, engagement, do this farm Yeah.
Caleb
01:09:33 – 01:09:47
He'll block you. Okay. Yeah. So I it was, like, this is when I knew something was wrong because I'm getting Twitter notifications during the conference. I look at my phone, and I just see somebody being an absolute jerk.
Caleb
01:09:47 – 01:09:50
Okay. Would people do that sometimes? I'm Sure. Used to it. Move on.
Caleb
01:09:50 – 01:10:05
That person is following me around and commenting everywhere that anybody is saying something good Not great. Smearing, you know, like, really bad personal type, whatever. Not just, like, flux sucks, but, like, Caleb sucks, you know.
Aaron
01:10:05 – 01:10:05
Don't like that.
Caleb
01:10:06 – 01:10:18
And so I immediately, I'm, like, self preservation block, whatever. I'm never going yes. And and then then I'm getting more notifications. Oh, they're commenting on the block. They're even more Really?
Caleb
01:10:18 – 01:10:24
Because their friend, their troll friend under the bridge got blocked. And they're mad at me,
Aaron
01:10:24 – 01:10:26
and they're smearing me for blocking, and it's, like, somehow a
Caleb
01:10:26 – 01:10:28
bad reflection on me even more so.
Aaron
01:10:28 – 01:10:36
Block block block. Don't Block. Yep. You don't owe You all pay 1. You don't owe anyone anything on Twitter, especially not mental health.
Aaron
01:10:36 – 01:10:37
You don't owe them that.
Caleb
01:10:37 – 01:10:47
Yeah. So those are the only people I've blocked in my life is the people in that span of 5 minutes that were Yep. That I just saw being the worst and whatever. So yeah. Anyway.
Caleb
01:10:48 – 01:10:48
Hope y'all
Aaron
01:10:48 – 01:10:49
are listening. Yeah.
Caleb
01:10:50 – 01:11:01
But so so many people, I, there was a time where I thought this preorder was a massive mistake. Logan, you ruined my life. Mhmm. But I would say, at this point, I think it's a benefit. Like K.
Aaron
01:11:01 – 01:11:02
Tell me.
Caleb
01:11:02 – 01:11:03
I think. We'll see.
Aaron
01:11:04 – 01:11:05
Just because it's so hard
Caleb
01:11:05 – 01:11:24
to estimate these things, because all you see is this very thin surface. But just so many people have been, like, so nice to me about this problem. Mhmm. Like, both in DMs, publicly, you know, on replies on that tweet, just so many people checking in, like, literally today. Tons of messages of people just being, like, hey, like, you know, whatever.
Caleb
01:11:24 – 01:11:35
And yeah. So that it it at least makes me feel better than I would have even felt if I never did a preorder. So Sure. I don't know. What do you think?
Aaron
01:11:36 – 01:11:51
I follow much of the same journey because I was watching you side stage, and I thought this is going great. This totally rules. And then you got off stage and you got the big applause line and everything. And then I thought, oh, it's gonna make a ton of money. Everybody loves it.
Aaron
01:11:51 – 01:12:04
This went great. Yeah. And I didn't know I didn't know that there was there was bad blood until much, much later because, like, I'm not I'm busy. Right? You and I are both busy doing conference stuff.
Caleb
01:12:04 – 01:12:06
Yeah. Barely loaded with my phone.
Aaron
01:12:06 – 01:12:16
Yeah. Then I start to see some of it come up, and I start to hear, like, oh, man. Did you see what they're saying about Flux? You know, I start to hear that, and and I'm like, no. What's going on?
Aaron
01:12:16 – 01:12:30
And then I felt I just I felt sad. I was like, guys, $99, I understand is not the same to everyone, but this is a huge amount of work, but also, it doesn't matter. Honestly, it doesn't matter how much work
Caleb
01:12:30 – 01:12:31
you put in. It's how
Aaron
01:12:31 – 01:12:36
much value I get out of it, and it's more than $99. And so the
Caleb
01:12:36 – 01:12:41
top part is people think so many of these UI component libraries are the same.
Aaron
01:12:41 – 01:12:41
They do.
Caleb
01:12:42 – 01:12:42
They're not
Aaron
01:12:42 – 01:12:48
the same. Tough space to be in. Oh, I see. It's true. Chose to play on hard mode here.
Caleb
01:12:48 – 01:12:55
Yeah. Yeah. And it it's, like, to do a UI component library of quality the way that Tailwind does and whatever.
Aaron
01:12:55 – 01:12:58
To do some and, like, I would say shoelace, similarly,
Caleb
01:12:58 – 01:13:12
is, like, those are the 2 that come to mind that I go, you guys put in all the work. Yep. You did it right. People who use your stuff, they're better off. Most of the other ones, I look at and I go, this is a hodgepodge cobble mess.
Caleb
01:13:13 – 01:13:20
Right. And I would never wanna use this in my application personally. Yep. Yep. And I wanted to make something that was of that level.
Caleb
01:13:20 – 01:13:44
And then once you crack that box open, you realize that just a badge component with no JavaScript functionality, just the API decisions, the the design decisions, all of those things, just those things alone can be weeks. I don't know. Maybe that's an overestimation for a batch, but a long time. Like, it's not simple, and no. But you don't know that.
Caleb
01:13:44 – 01:13:54
So, of course, it's, like, it's also it's, like, work in versus, like, value out. It's, like, how much value is somebody getting from this batch? There's a lot of value they don't understand they're getting. Mhmm. But whatever.
Caleb
01:13:54 – 01:14:00
It's the things like building your own combo box that, like, if you've done that so Jeff Saggle Sagglebot, view select
Aaron
01:14:01 – 01:14:01
Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb
01:14:01 – 01:14:06
Yeah. I talked to him a bunch at the conference, and he's, like, you know, he's one of few people who get it. Correct.
Aaron
01:14:06 – 01:14:07
He
Caleb
01:14:07 – 01:14:20
gets it. People who've built a combo box get it. It's almost the hard hardest thing you can do. Like Yep. And they just know, like, Jeff's whole, like, career or open source life is just this that problem space alone.
Caleb
01:14:20 – 01:14:34
Yes. The combo box. That thing alone. There's an command k or whatever, you know, and react, like Yep. These projects, their entire existence, and all of that maintenance effort goes towards a combo box.
Caleb
01:14:34 – 01:14:57
You know? It's so, so difficult and dropping it, and then people just dropping a handwritten combo box that works super well and is super flexible and is super composable and is like my magnum opus, and people just being, like, oh, another UI component library, but we have to pay for this. It you know, it's just that's a huge disconnect that I hope I can resolve over time. I have to make up for that. If I can't, then whatever.
Caleb
01:14:57 – 01:15:13
It's just a bad product space. It's a bad it's a bad space because Right. The value that you perceive and I get it. Like, the browser should just have this. Like, this doesn't feel like like you should have to go out on a limb for this thing, but whatever.
Caleb
01:15:13 – 01:15:36
So I I'm just back to, like, I have enough good vibes that it's just stoic mode. It's, like, I freaking love this thing, and I believe that you will too. And if you don't yet, you will over time, if you use it, and that will be what it is. And if it doesn't smash or whatever, it's, like, I know that it is better than the alternatives, and I will love it and use it, and that's good enough for me. But I think people love it.
Caleb
01:15:36 – 01:15:36
So
Aaron
01:15:36 – 01:15:46
I think people will love it. I think, one of your challenges is going to be competing on so it is a very tough space. Very, very tough.
Caleb
01:15:46 – 01:15:48
And I think It's less tough in Livewire.
Aaron
01:15:48 – 01:15:58
It is less tough in Livewire, and you already have massive distribution. And so you have Yeah. You know, you have 2 things going for you. Yes. I think I could not charge for
Caleb
01:15:58 – 01:16:00
this in React, you know?
Aaron
01:16:00 – 01:16:02
No. No. No. No. No.
Aaron
01:16:02 – 01:16:08
Not even a little bit. I think competing on technically better is always hard Yeah. Because people don't appreciate
Caleb
01:16:09 – 01:16:09
Yeah.
Aaron
01:16:09 – 01:16:19
Technically better. Yep. And so that'll be that'll be interesting to see play out. Like ease of use ease of use is a great one. Developer experience is a great one.
Aaron
01:16:19 – 01:16:25
But, like, no. No. I promise this is technically better. That's always super tough to, like, make people care about.
Caleb
01:16:25 – 01:16:43
The only thing that that is a tangible hedge for you is that eventually that word gets out that a thing is buggy, bloated Yes. Whatever. That's that's where you win. Mhmm. But it's not always a guarantee, and it's not always a guarantee how much that helps you.
Caleb
01:16:43 – 01:17:00
Mhmm. But it is really helpful that, like, when your competition is not as considered and not as Mhmm. You know, clean and whatever, people use it, and they love it at first because it's so easy to use and it's free and whatever, but then they start to resent it. And then it turns into I mean, look at Bootstrap even, like
Aaron
01:17:00 – 01:17:00
Yeah.
Caleb
01:17:00 – 01:17:11
Bootstrap is is not not a great example because it's actually well built, but, like, something can totally dominate in an obvious way, but then when enough people or maybe WordPress is a better example.
Aaron
01:17:11 – 01:17:13
It's like Maybe Next. Js is a better example.
Caleb
01:17:13 – 01:17:22
Maybe. I I don't know about Next. Current state to know, but, but React even, you know, just the complexity and things involved in that. I don't It
Aaron
01:17:22 – 01:17:28
can it can dominate, and then it gets a little bit too complex, and then the vibe shifts. And, you know, that that absolutely happens.
Caleb
01:17:28 – 01:17:45
It's it's a it's a long play. It's at least a protection against vibe shift. You know? Mhmm. If you stay lean, if you stay clean, and you stay high quality, you're betting that you're hoping that eventually people realize that the alternatives are bloated and messy and whatever.
Caleb
01:17:45 – 01:17:47
Mhmm. But
Aaron
01:17:48 – 01:17:59
And this is this is the opposite of what those examples we just gave is probably Tailwind. People looked at it at first and were like, oh, what a mess. I can't believe. And Adam's like, no. I promise this is actually better.
Aaron
01:17:59 – 01:18:09
And you it because it was actually better, stick with it long enough, and it becomes de facto because everybody's like, y'all, It's it is actually better. You just you just need to use it.
Caleb
01:18:09 – 01:18:18
Yep. Yeah. No. That's that's a a good example of that happening where where it's, like, being technically better, but harder initially Mhmm.
Aaron
01:18:18 – 01:18:18
When you know?
Caleb
01:18:19 – 01:18:35
But, yeah, they they obviously imagine tailwind success with poor design or not top tier design. Nonexistent. Right? Nonexistent. So much of it is the design because you type shadow SM at the time, you got a shadow that you didn't get in other libraries.
Caleb
01:18:35 – 01:18:37
It looked clean. It's a layered shadow
Aaron
01:18:37 – 01:18:37
Mhmm.
Caleb
01:18:38 – 01:18:41
Colored, you know, that, like, off gray, like, a little bit of blue in their grays,
Aaron
01:18:41 – 01:18:42
in their gray.
Caleb
01:18:42 – 01:18:57
That was those were huge innovations. It's, like, oh, I'm using this thing now, and I am just crapping out, like, pretty things. You know? Yeah. These rounded all these things are pretty, and that is something that, like, is massive for Tailwind.
Caleb
01:18:58 – 01:19:16
And so that's with Flux. Similarly, it's, like, that was a hard moment at first that I realized, like, I have to compete on design. Mhmm. Is that something that, like, I can obviously compete on development easily because that's what I do, but it's hard for me to compete on design because I'm not a designer, obviously. We all suck at design.
Caleb
01:19:16 – 01:19:19
You know? Mhmm. TM, Caleb. I have one now. That's good.
Aaron
01:19:19 – 01:19:21
Oh, you've got one now. That's great. Yeah. You
Caleb
01:19:22 – 01:19:33
have IP. Yeah. So anyway, working with Hugo and whatever, and just experiencing that, it's like, oh my gosh. Like, you know, I feel like now I'm at that level. My product is at that level that is like premier, and that's awesome.
Aaron
01:19:34 – 01:19:35
Can we just talk about Hugo?
Caleb
01:19:35 – 01:19:37
Is Hugo the best? Hugo's the best. Yeah.
Aaron
01:19:37 – 01:19:43
Hugo's the best. I know Hugo. Hugo designed, aaronfrancis.com. Hugo's the best.
Caleb
01:19:43 – 01:19:43
I used to
Aaron
01:19:43 – 01:19:45
work with Hugo at Tupelo.
Caleb
01:19:45 – 01:19:52
Yes. Hugo is the best, through and through. He's awesome. He works harder than anybody I've worked with, I think.
Aaron
01:19:52 – 01:19:53
I think that's correct.
Caleb
01:19:53 – 01:19:57
He's one of those workers where you go, everyone else is a waste of money. Yep. I
Aaron
01:19:57 – 01:19:58
think that is correct.
Caleb
01:19:58 – 01:20:08
He makes everybody else a waste of money. You go, not that what you see, what is possible Mhmm. If somebody takes your money and converts it into just high quality output.
Aaron
01:20:09 – 01:20:13
Mhmm. You go Did he do any of the code for you? Because he when he did my site,
Caleb
01:20:13 – 01:20:13
he did a bunch of it.
Aaron
01:20:13 – 01:20:15
He did almost all the tailwinds.
Caleb
01:20:15 – 01:20:19
Right. He's a programmer. He did 0 of it until that preorder page.
Aaron
01:20:19 – 01:20:21
Until you call it until the day, like Until the Sunday
Caleb
01:20:21 – 01:20:22
I was leaving for Lyrica.
Aaron
01:20:22 – 01:20:23
Wake up. Yeah.
Caleb
01:20:23 – 01:20:32
So I did all the code because I think it's so important for me to be crazy and I need to have written it all to understand.
Aaron
01:20:32 – 01:20:34
I didn't know if you did any of like the landing page stuff.
Caleb
01:20:34 – 01:20:49
So I implemented all that, but then, yes, at the last minute on Sunday Mhmm. He had a call. I threw him on Laravel Herd, and in 5 minutes had him up and running in Laravel, and he started pull requesting. So he pull requested some cleanup stuff. He made the landing page animate.
Caleb
01:20:49 – 01:21:10
He did the the, like, Aurora borealis, like, animation in the background, the stars. So now he's in the code base and connect oh, and I even was in that video that I recorded just showing people the docs, I opened the doc, the installation page, and I just saw it change like, there's, like, design in it. It's not just copy anymore. It was, like, oh, Hugo did that too. Like, because he that's who he is.
Caleb
01:21:10 – 01:21:37
He's just it's just high quality and attention to detail on a level that I'm not used to, and it's a massive inspiration to me. And it, yeah, just to meet him at that level and be like Mhmm. Yeah. We're gonna actually really care about every pixel on every page in every light and dark mode and way more than pixels, you know, behavior and everything, design systems and UI and everything. It's, like, a pleasure working with Hugo.
Aaron
01:21:37 – 01:21:38
Good job, Hugo.
Caleb
01:21:38 – 01:21:46
Yeah. Well done. Here's the thing, Aaron. I want this to be free more than anything, and I know and you can you can flash me off of this show whenever, but I want this to be
Aaron
01:21:46 – 01:21:48
free so bad. It is so so bad that
Caleb
01:21:48 – 01:21:52
it is not free. That's the worst part. It's, like,
Aaron
01:21:52 – 01:22:01
if this was free, it would be huge for LiveWire. Huge. Yeah. It would be huge for everybody in the community. It would be
Caleb
01:22:01 – 01:22:03
such I feel like I
Aaron
01:22:03 – 01:22:05
am doing
Caleb
01:22:05 – 01:22:09
a massive disservice to the world by charging for this.
Aaron
01:22:09 – 01:22:18
I know. I hate it so much. I know. I know. Is there what did, what did business dad what did what did Ian say?
Caleb
01:22:18 – 01:22:22
Had a good long talk with Ian this morning. Yeah. Yeah. Tons of chat back and forth. Yeah.
Caleb
01:22:22 – 01:22:33
Because I woke up to that essay that you saw Uh-huh. That you saw on the teas, and then we just started chatting back and forth, but he's pushing me towards lifetime. K. He he gave me some words, like, he's, like, this has to be a no brainer buy.
Aaron
01:22:33 – 01:22:34
K.
Caleb
01:22:34 – 01:22:59
And he's pushing against subscription or even something subscription esque, like k. Pay for a year, get updates, you know, for a smaller amount every year. It's never gonna be a subscription in the sense that you lose access. It's like you pay, you have access to that version of Flux forever, you know, but I for I guess the listener is not totally following this. I've been toying with a, like, a a Novasque, SatAMIC s, like, pay and then pay for updates every year.
Caleb
01:22:59 – 01:23:05
You know? Mhmm. But he's saying it's gotta be no brainer. Lifetime is what's up. You know?
Caleb
01:23:05 – 01:23:14
But similarly, like yeah. Whatever. I've just fundamentally it is I wish it could be free so bad. Everybody does. It would be better for everybody if it was free.
Aaron
01:23:15 – 01:23:23
You you would have much, it would it would go much broader, and it would be much faster if it was free and open source.
Caleb
01:23:23 – 01:23:26
Is there any world where it's free and open source?
Aaron
01:23:26 – 01:23:30
Yeah. Of course. But I don't know And I don't know what you make money.
Caleb
01:23:30 – 01:23:38
And it's, like, a healthy bit like, this to me is the hope of a healthy future business. With I know this, if this was free, at least where I'm at right now
Aaron
01:23:38 – 01:23:41
I know. Feels like that bubble gets popped,
Caleb
01:23:41 – 01:23:44
and as you know, like You're you're out
Aaron
01:23:44 – 01:23:48
there shaking the tin, like, give me sponsor me for $5 a month, and it's, like, I
Caleb
01:23:48 – 01:23:49
I'm not doing that.
Aaron
01:23:49 – 01:23:52
Cle clearly that has worked, but it's, like, is that what you want
Caleb
01:23:52 – 01:23:52
the rest
Aaron
01:23:52 – 01:23:54
of your business to be?
Caleb
01:23:54 – 01:24:03
Take it a given that I want my business to grow and be a profitable, healthy business Right. That supports my family and my life until I retire.
Aaron
01:24:03 – 01:24:03
You
Caleb
01:24:03 – 01:24:10
know? Like, put that as a given. How is this free? There's a sass. There's that this is feeding into.
Caleb
01:24:10 – 01:24:15
You know? It's like No. There's no sass. I mean, there could be, but you know what I'm saying? It's like
Aaron
01:24:15 – 01:24:25
Ah. Yeah. I don't know. I think yeah. The the purest thing is to give somebody give people something and they give you money.
Aaron
01:24:25 – 01:24:34
So, like, I I don't I don't begrudge the model at all, but which is to say, like, I don't think you should make it free and then get sponsors. That's just
Caleb
01:24:34 – 01:24:34
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron
01:24:34 – 01:24:50
That's just a losing proposition. Yeah. But I don't know I don't know what the alternative thing to sell is. Like, you've had great success with screencasts, but it's like, I don't know that that moves the needle. I mean, maybe maybe people would watch Flux screencasts and pay for it and stuff.
Aaron
01:24:50 – 01:24:51
But
Caleb
01:24:51 – 01:24:59
Yeah. I mean, it could do have that. There's, like, content around Flux that, as Flux, like, grows, like, would become unprofitable. Yeah. That would be nice.
Caleb
01:24:59 – 01:25:22
But, yeah, I think for I mean, I'm entertaining this just for fun, but, like, obviously, it's on a path. And I I just keep telling myself that, like, it's gonna be so good and I'm gonna make it so much better that that it will be, like, why wouldn't you buy this thing? I gotta just bank on that, but you're gonna lose the mass of people who just aren't gonna pay for stuff like this. You know? And I think I
Aaron
01:25:22 – 01:25:27
think Ian's point is probably, like, those aren't your customers. Don't worry about them. Think about them never again.
Caleb
01:25:27 – 01:25:48
And that well, that's why he's pushing me towards lifetime. He's like, just a lot of people, look like that are in financially hard positions or are unsure about their future, you know, at a company or for a project. It's like, if there's a subscription, then they're gonna go, nah, you know, I'll look elsewhere. But the one thing that Ian, underestimates is the uniqueness of this in the LiveWire space.
Aaron
01:25:48 – 01:25:51
Yeah. To me That is not to be forgotten about. I agree.
Caleb
01:25:51 – 01:26:11
It's like if this was if we're talking, you know, flux versus Shad CN, yeah, that's one thing. What we're talking about is something, like, as a LiveWire user, you can have a, like, deeply integrated first party thing that, like, is designed with with external attributes. With durable attributes. Right? You're never gonna run you're never gonna have to slap a wire ignore on something.
Aaron
01:26:11 – 01:26:11
Right.
Caleb
01:26:11 – 01:26:17
You're never gonna have to fiddle. It's just gonna work, and it's going to make your experience. The only part of your LiveWire experience that sucks,
Aaron
01:26:18 – 01:26:19
it's going to remove that part.
Caleb
01:26:19 – 01:26:34
You know? Right. So I think that that is a a huge thing, and it, like, is going to be a good business no matter what. It's just, you know, my heart breaks that it's not, like Right. Going to be the thing that, whatever.
Caleb
01:26:34 – 01:26:55
It could be, like, the most valuable IP in the Laravel space in my mind. I mean, that could be, like, a really grossly whatever. To me, it could be the most valuable project to own and to have from a from the standpoint of user adoption and user satisfaction and love and attraction and all those things. People will be will fall in love with me and be attracted to me because of it.
Aaron
01:26:55 – 01:26:56
Which is all that matters.
Caleb
01:26:56 – 01:27:06
And I'm turning that into instead, I'm getting money and making it something that is valued and used, but not the the thing to rule all the things.
Aaron
01:27:06 – 01:27:11
Do you wanna do you wanna be rich, or do you wanna be king? That's the question. Right.
Caleb
01:27:11 – 01:27:15
Yes. And it's, I I want, Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron
01:27:16 – 01:27:21
Same. Here here's a question for you. Alpine components exists. Right? Yeah.
Aaron
01:27:21 – 01:27:28
Mhmm. What's what's the state and status and future of that? Cause that's not a project that I've been following terribly closely.
Caleb
01:27:28 – 01:27:39
Right. So flux is gonna right. Especially flux was open and free Alpine components would be shot in the face. So that's another thing that's like, oh, not only would I not make more money, I would lose I would lose money. I would have to refund everybody's pre order.
Caleb
01:27:39 – 01:27:42
Like this, it's never happening. You're gonna lose it
Aaron
01:27:42 – 01:27:43
twice instead of save it once, you know?
Caleb
01:27:44 – 01:27:58
Totally. But, yeah. So what is happening with Alpine components is like, it works the way it works right now. I wanna get the there's some experimental stuff in there that's still in beta, but doesn't need to be. So I'm gonna tag that just so that it's like, doesn't feel beta e.
Caleb
01:27:58 – 01:28:08
But right now it's just gonna be what it is until like, what's really valuable to me is that this is in the wild for 6 months and becomes bulletproof. You know? Like once
Aaron
01:28:08 – 01:28:09
being flux. Right?
Caleb
01:28:09 – 01:28:35
Yeah. Like once, you know, once a project like flux that's, like, really ambitious and and has a lot of JavaScript and interactions and stuff, once it becomes bulletproof, then that core becomes incredibly valuable. And then it's like, okay, I could do things with this core outside of Flux, you know? Mhmm. And that's where it's like maybe Alpine components people just get, I mean, I could even do this now where like take, make kind of a stripped down version of flux that's just more like copy paste, you know?
Caleb
01:28:37 – 01:28:47
For rails and, and such, like I've thought about that. A Lot of rails people have reached out and are like Yeah. Who do we need that core for rails? Like, how do we get that? And maybe Alpine components is the way to do that.
Caleb
01:28:47 – 01:28:50
It's like, you know, yeah, I could see that.
Aaron
01:28:50 – 01:28:57
But but philosophically, what's the difference between Alpine UI components and Flux? Is it just the use of Alpine?
Caleb
01:28:57 – 01:29:07
No. I mean I mean, Flux uses Alpine some for some things inside of it. No. It's like Alpine components is like like I said, it's it's copy and paste. It's tailwind UI.
Caleb
01:29:07 – 01:29:32
You know, it's copy and pastable HTML with behavior that you can do what you will inside of your Rails app, your Django app, your Elixir app, whatever. And it's, like, very helpful for people. It's like like I showed, you know, building a drop down that actually has all the right things is not easy. So without buying components, you can copy and paste that big drop down and then componentize it however you want. Flux is a design system.
Caleb
01:29:32 – 01:29:45
It's a component. It's so much more it is so much more than that. It's a composable blade component UI design system for your application. It's like you have yeah. It's the path.
Caleb
01:29:45 – 01:29:52
It's everything. Alpine components is just the components in a way that you have to do all that stuff. You know?
Aaron
01:29:52 – 01:29:53
Okay. So That makes sense.
Caleb
01:29:54 – 01:29:55
Does that make sense?
Aaron
01:29:55 – 01:30:16
That makes sense. And I'm looking at the the landing page, for Alpine components, and it is 129 lifetime pricing. And so you have you have a little bit of, experiment here. How would it feel if you made Flex the same kind of model as Alpine? Because you've done that before.
Caleb
01:30:16 – 01:30:30
I hate the prospect of lifetime because and this is the biggest reason, is that I only paid Adam Wadden one time. Mhmm. I was paying him for stuff. I paid him for TDD course. Yep.
Caleb
01:30:30 – 01:30:33
I I paid them for, refact or refactoring to collections. You know?
Aaron
01:30:33 – 01:30:34
Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb
01:30:34 – 01:30:35
Yeah. Right? Then Advanced
Aaron
01:30:35 – 01:30:36
view components.
Caleb
01:30:36 – 01:30:52
Advanced view components. I paid them for refactoring UI, obviously, and then I paid them for Tailwind UI. And after Tailwind UI, I haven't paid him a dime. And that was, like, 5 or 6 years ago. So I was paying Adam regularly for stuff that he was producing that's awesome and high quality, and it benefits my life and adds value.
Aaron
01:30:53 – 01:30:55
And then I stopped paying Adam. Mhmm.
Caleb
01:30:55 – 01:30:56
And I just think about that.
Aaron
01:30:56 – 01:31:02
It's like He he doesn't love that either, by the way. Right. If you don't like it, he doesn't like it even more. Exactly. And I just don't want
Caleb
01:31:02 – 01:31:21
and I'm and so Ian Ian would say, if you were here, I think, he would say, yeah. But, okay, the alternate universe where Tailwind UI is a subscription, maybe you subscribe because you're his friend. Yep. How many other people went? And that was a barrier to them where it's like, I could just pay once and have it forever done.
Caleb
01:31:21 – 01:31:29
No brainer. Bought it. Yep. How many peep right. So, like, what in the alternate universe where Tailwind UI because a lot of people have said that to me.
Caleb
01:31:29 – 01:31:38
It's like, do what Tailwind UI does. It works. Mhmm. And I kinda did that with Alpine components. It's an easy model, but it solely depends on people coming in.
Caleb
01:31:38 – 01:32:07
You get nothing from all the people who have benefited for years. And in a world where, you know, the the inroads where there's a block in the road where some competition comes out and whatever, and you're not bringing in as many whatever force of nature there is where the paths into your thing, whatever the marketing, the inbound stuff, when that stuff dwindles, your funnel stuff, then that is what it just changes your business like an immediate thing. There's no lag, you know?
Aaron
01:32:07 – 01:32:08
Right.
Caleb
01:32:08 – 01:32:14
And I hate that because it's so much nicer to have experiences with GitHub Sponsors with a ton of subscriptions.
Aaron
01:32:14 – 01:32:15
Right. There's a
Caleb
01:32:15 – 01:32:25
giant buffer there. And if everybody decides to just peace out, you have, like, a good long tail, you know, of just, like, alright. I see that this is declining. I'll vamp back up. You know, I'll do that.
Caleb
01:32:25 – 01:32:44
But the alternate argument, the Ian argument is, like, yes. That's better, but how much more would you have made total if it was lifetime one off no brainer for people? You know? Dealing with these things, open to opinions. So now that's a whole new thing after talking with Ian is, like, oh, now I'm back to considering lifetime.
Caleb
01:32:44 – 01:32:47
You know? Yeah. Because he's convincing me.
Aaron
01:32:47 – 01:32:52
Yeah. Yeah. I saw a lot of the complaints for, like, the per project pricing.
Caleb
01:32:52 – 01:32:53
I think that's just not gonna happen
Aaron
01:32:54 – 01:32:55
per project.
Caleb
01:32:55 – 01:33:00
Yeah. Like, it's Yeah. Where where it's at right now is, like, it would be a solo dev price, unlimited projects,
Aaron
01:33:00 – 01:33:01
you know Yeah.
Caleb
01:33:01 – 01:33:08
Per seat. So if you're a company with 10 people, you'd pay more, you know, but you'd get 10 seats. So yeah.
Aaron
01:33:08 – 01:33:14
That seem that seems a little that seems a little more friendly. I don't think one is right or wrong, but that seems a little
Caleb
01:33:15 – 01:33:29
more So I think the project is just sucks as a solo dev. Like Yeah. It it seems like it the reason I was doing it was because I'd be capturing more value for Mhmm. Like, agencies and stuff, but it's, like, honestly, I think they're the minority of customers for me. Could be wrong.
Caleb
01:33:29 – 01:33:33
I think that's a minority of customers for me. And as a solo dev, I'm
Aaron
01:33:33 – 01:33:35
just not gonna use something that I have to pay
Caleb
01:33:35 – 01:33:45
for every time. Like Right. I I don't think I would. It only the, it would limit the amount of people where if it's unlimited now, it's like you, you get in the door and now you use this thing on everything. So yeah.
Caleb
01:33:45 – 01:33:56
The original plan, the original plan was monetize templates and really a few components. Yeah. That that's where we were at, like, a month ago, maybe 2 months.
Aaron
01:33:56 – 01:33:58
Do we hate that?
Caleb
01:33:58 – 01:34:13
Yeah. That's good, but I don't know that that's an I think I'll do much better financially this way. You will. And and the problem with that is you need to have new content coming out all the time.
Aaron
01:34:13 – 01:34:13
Yeah.
Caleb
01:34:13 – 01:34:27
Now I'm on it where this is, like, I can just focus on the product and making it good, and then I make money. That is, like, I know what that's like. You're stepping on a treadmill, and you're doing it in an area where screencasting? I'm on that treadmill, whatever. It's not great, but I can do it.
Caleb
01:34:27 – 01:34:38
Right. Design templates? I can't do that. So now you're gonna have to, like, make sure that Hugo's on for that or somebody else is on for that and and make sure that that ball stays in the air. You know?
Aaron
01:34:38 – 01:34:39
So I don't know.
Caleb
01:34:40 – 01:34:40
But I love
Aaron
01:34:40 – 01:34:49
that idea. Tough. That would be that would be fun. Yeah. And it would be nice to because then you can make the components free, but I think you'd make less money and it'd be more work.
Aaron
01:34:49 – 01:34:50
Just strike 2,
Caleb
01:34:50 – 01:35:02
you know Can I have that option to transition to it at some point? Like, if I charge people for this and then a year later decide, like, we're only gonna make certain portions of this paid and and the rest can be free. Like, it's fine. Right? It's fine.
Caleb
01:35:02 – 01:35:03
You got what you paid for initially.
Aaron
01:35:03 – 01:35:04
Got what you paid for.
Caleb
01:35:04 – 01:35:09
There's no guarantees, whatever. It's like, you got what you paid for. You still get what you paid for.
Aaron
01:35:09 – 01:35:09
Yep.
Caleb
01:35:09 – 01:35:12
I'm just trying to pay now. If you're mad, you can have
Aaron
01:35:12 – 01:35:16
a refund, and I'll never speak to you again. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Right.
Caleb
01:35:16 – 01:35:16
I I
Aaron
01:35:16 – 01:35:17
think yeah.
Caleb
01:35:17 – 01:35:19
I'll talk with you and your family. Yes. Exactly.
Aaron
01:35:20 – 01:35:24
I can have a refund, but you're on my bad list. So which one do you want? Yeah.
Caleb
01:35:24 – 01:35:25
Right.
Aaron
01:35:25 – 01:35:28
Yeah. I think you totally preserve that optionality. That seems totally fine to me. Yeah.
Caleb
01:35:28 – 01:35:40
As long as I can preserve that. Kind of the tricky thing is going with this private packages thing. You know, we have an auth dot JSON. Yeah. I wanna know, maybe you could tell me, what types of things am I locking myself in for?
Caleb
01:35:41 – 01:35:49
Like, for example, can I do this setup where to use flux right now, you do, you know, whatever? I'm putting a nice command.
Aaron
01:35:49 – 01:35:49
Sure.
Caleb
01:35:49 – 01:36:09
It adds some credentials to an auth.json, and now it's, like, it feels like public, but it's it's a private package just repo. K. Mhmm. If I decide at some point, I wanna make 8 of these free and open source, like, is that hard? Can I take the repo, put it on GitHub, make it a public thing now, and then will everybody's auth.json and composer.json, like, set up?
Caleb
01:36:09 – 01:36:23
Will it just be like, oh, this is public now, so it's fine. Or maybe what I should do is put this in a Flux Pro repo so that I preserve the potential for the, like, just flux namespace. You know?
Aaron
01:36:23 – 01:36:49
I don't know how you would go I don't know how you would have one pro package that you maybe with unlock, with Fila's thing, you can just have different tiers. Like, you might be able you might be able, on unlock, to serve 2 separate, like, packages from the same URL based on the license that they're assigned.
Caleb
01:36:49 – 01:36:50
By the way. No. Anystack.
Aaron
01:36:50 – 01:36:52
Oh, shoot. You're right. Anystack.
Caleb
01:36:52 – 01:36:53
Very good product.
Aaron
01:36:54 – 01:37:07
Yeah. That would be interesting. So, like, if their lights if their light their key hits the license server and it's not a free key, but a paid key, they get dot pro or whatever. That might be doable. I don't know.
Aaron
01:37:07 – 01:37:08
Yeah.
Caleb
01:37:08 – 01:37:27
It's like I just wanna I would if I can make a decision right now that's that's like, whatever, a haircut and not a tattoo, like, that's the decision I wanna make. And so there's all these things. Like, is it better to go from lifetime to subscription or subscription to lifetime if one of them doesn't work out? You know? Just optionality wise.
Caleb
01:37:27 – 01:37:27
Which is better?
Aaron
01:37:27 – 01:37:41
Oh, man. Is it better to go from subscription to lifetime or lifetime to subscription? Depends you wouldn't be able to get the lifetime people to subscribe, in my opinion, because I think you've made them a promise that they bought lifetime.
Caleb
01:37:41 – 01:37:46
Oh, if they got, like, well yeah. So this is another thing. But, yes, agreed. It I wouldn't be true.
Aaron
01:37:46 – 01:37:54
Those those people would be lost. You'd be hosed. Okay. Right. But if you went subscription to lifetime, there's a chance you could get the people who were subscribing.
Aaron
01:37:54 – 01:37:59
You could get them to pay for the lifetime and be done with it. Right. Yeah. I'm yep.
Caleb
01:38:00 – 01:38:08
Dude, it's tricky because if the subscription people, if they subscribe for, like, 3 years and then you put out a lifetime, that's, like, maybe even less than the sum of money they gave to me. There'd have
Aaron
01:38:08 – 01:38:10
to be some sort of consideration given for that.
Caleb
01:38:10 – 01:38:17
But maybe not. I, at Laracast, I subscribed to Laracast for years, and then I bought a lifetime. I don't know.
Aaron
01:38:17 – 01:38:24
Maybe I'm, like, too precious. Maybe I just need to be more, like, of a robber baron and just say Yeah. Like, because I mean, really just deal.
Caleb
01:38:24 – 01:38:37
I think part of it is, like, looking at your own experience and examples and how you feel about those things. Mhmm. And at least for me, yeah, with, like, with larocasts, it's, like, I didn't expect him to calculate how much money I gave him then pro rate me.
Aaron
01:38:37 – 01:38:37
Right.
Caleb
01:38:37 – 01:38:47
I just it just it's like, hunting license. Like, I always dealt with this with hunting licenses. It's like I didn't have the money to get the lifetime one when I was young. Mhmm.
Aaron
01:38:47 – 01:38:47
And
Caleb
01:38:47 – 01:38:50
then every year that I didn't get it, it just became, like, less valuable.
Aaron
01:38:51 – 01:38:51
Mhmm.
Caleb
01:38:51 – 01:38:55
But then I made enough that I was, you know what? Screw it. Whatever. It's just easier. I'm just gonna buy 1.
Aaron
01:38:56 – 01:39:03
With the 6 flags season passes. You know? You go to you go to 6 flags bunch, and you're like, gosh. I should've bought the season pass. Should've bought the season pass.
Aaron
01:39:03 – 01:39:04
You don't get credit for it.
Caleb
01:39:04 – 01:39:05
You don't get credit for that. You don't
Aaron
01:39:05 – 01:39:06
get credit for it. So that's
Caleb
01:39:22 – 01:39:27
Right. But then lifetime to subscription. So if you do lifetime for, you know, $300. Okay? Yep.
Caleb
01:39:27 – 01:39:34
You're in for life. Yep. Obviously, I'm not gonna say this thing's subscription now. That lifetime, that wasn't actually for life.
Aaron
01:39:34 – 01:39:35
That feels black and white.
Caleb
01:39:35 – 01:39:41
Oh, that oh, that's totally black and white. Yeah. But so I was talking with this with Ian a little bit. Mhmm. It's, like,
Aaron
01:39:42 – 01:39:44
what a job We should have him on the show sometime.
Caleb
01:39:44 – 01:39:49
We should have Ian on the show. Friend of the show, Ian. Friend of the show, Ian Landsman. Yeah. Phone him in.
Caleb
01:39:50 – 01:40:07
So what Ian is telling me is, like, because we were is there a way to not say goodbye to revenue forever from a loyal customer? You know? And he's like, well, you know, like, data tables, charts, like Sure. File picker, like, file upload picker thingy and date like, big ticket items.
Aaron
01:40:07 – 01:40:08
Mhmm.
Caleb
01:40:08 – 01:40:26
Those could be a Flux Pro, and you could wrangle some messaging. Like, I feel like I would have to do some amount of messaging on the page right now that's, like, lifetime basic pro coming soon or something. You know? It's, like, that's a way. Because the reality is if Adam launched some add on thing and charged for it, I would pay him.
Caleb
01:40:26 – 01:40:28
I wouldn't be, like, you said lifetime. He'd be,
Aaron
01:40:28 – 01:40:31
like, well, no. I said that about that. Like, you got what you want. Right.
Caleb
01:40:31 – 01:40:33
Yes. Agreed. You know? Right?
Aaron
01:40:33 – 01:40:40
So is the question, flex and a flex pro and both are paid, or is flex basic free?
Caleb
01:40:41 – 01:40:56
Not for now, but maybe eventually. Maybe that's the move. It's like maybe it's like do this for a few years or whatever. Just and, like, make it a good solid product that's, like, well funded. And then maybe maybe, like, build up these big things.
Caleb
01:40:56 – 01:41:07
Do a second big launch. Make that flux pro, make all this free. But then it's still the same problem of, like, if you paid me lifetime for flux basic Yeah. Now we're at
Aaron
01:41:07 – 01:41:36
Flex pro. Into Flex pro, because now there's only 1 paid tier, and you paid. I will say just, like, gut instinct, if there's enough there to do a flex basic flex pro, that feels nice to me. That feels like you get to be rich and king if you can, you know, if you can pull it off where the flex basic is, I don't know, 15, 10, 15 components that everybody needs and uses on everything, you get, like, the community momentum, you get the buzz, you get everything. And then
Caleb
01:41:36 – 01:41:37
Making that free?
Aaron
01:41:37 – 01:41:52
Making that free. And then any any, like, other components putting in flex pro, I think that feels nice. I think it's a question of is there a compelling enough split to get people to pay? That's the question.
Caleb
01:41:52 – 01:41:55
Yeah. But making that split right now, making that
Aaron
01:41:56 – 01:41:56
you should do it right now.
Caleb
01:41:56 – 01:42:04
You don't think so? Right now? Well, maybe not the maybe not free, but, like, making the split 2 tiered, both paid.
Aaron
01:42:05 – 01:42:06
I think that's a bad idea.
Caleb
01:42:06 – 01:42:08
You think so? Okay. I do. Because it's confusing?
Aaron
01:42:08 – 01:42:09
It's confusing.
Caleb
01:42:09 – 01:42:23
Well, let let let me first just make it seem like it's not just to make Okay. Just to vet any other problems with it, but, like, if you have, so it's basic and pro. Mhmm. And basic, it just says, like, 12 basic components, and then process
Aaron
01:42:24 – 01:42:24
badges, etcetera.
Caleb
01:42:25 – 01:42:34
All components. K. And and, you know, you can expand it to see the the list of components or something. Maybe it's a checkbox or whatever. And you go, yeah.
Caleb
01:42:34 – 01:42:46
Alright. I mean, people are gonna go pro, like, for sure. So the reason for having that is that eventually, I can lower that that basic price Uh-huh. And keep the pro price, but
Aaron
01:42:46 – 01:42:47
I don't know what that solves.
Caleb
01:42:48 – 01:42:51
And maybe just thinking that it solves dude,
Aaron
01:42:51 – 01:42:52
I feel like I should put this in
Caleb
01:42:52 – 01:43:01
a flux pro repo, and that's what you're installing installing so that in the future, I have the option to be, like, here's 8 components for free in livewire slash flux. You know?
Aaron
01:43:01 – 01:43:06
I, I don't know if I'd worry so much about the mechanics at this point. Really? I don't think I would.
Caleb
01:43:06 – 01:43:13
It does feel weird, but wouldn't it suck that, like, you have to install, like, Livewire slash flux basic or something?
Aaron
01:43:13 – 01:43:15
Yeah. I don't think you should do that either. Yeah.
Caleb
01:43:16 – 01:43:17
I think you need
Aaron
01:43:17 – 01:43:33
to figure out you need to figure out from Filo if it's possible to switch on certain license keys. Why? To switch what? Somebody so if somebody installs LiveWire slash flux and they have a basic key, you serve them the basic package and they have a pro key.
Caleb
01:43:33 – 01:43:33
Right.
Aaron
01:43:33 – 01:43:43
You serve them the pro package, but they don't they don't install flux dash pro, flux dash basic. They just install flux. And then on the back end Right. You switch which package you serve them.
Caleb
01:43:43 – 01:43:45
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Caleb
01:43:45 – 01:43:55
Okay. Well, I'm I'm just thinking of full potential future where a part of this is truly free and open in the sense that it's just composer require this thing. No licenses, no keys, nothing. Go through unlock or anything at all.
Aaron
01:43:55 – 01:43:56
Because I just feel like
Caleb
01:43:56 – 01:44:01
it's a barrier. A lot of people have told me it's not a barrier, but I do think it's a barrier.
Aaron
01:44:01 – 01:44:06
It's a little bit. Yeah. It's a little bit. Yeah. That's interesting.
Aaron
01:44:07 – 01:44:08
I I don't
Caleb
01:44:08 – 01:44:08
know, man.
Aaron
01:44:08 – 01:44:21
And maybe I'm walking back a little bit, the the free pro thing. If it's just, like, it's the same product or, like, I'm sorry, the basic pro thing. If it's just the same product and you're doing 2 different tiers Yeah. That's a well trod path.
Caleb
01:44:21 – 01:44:22
Yeah.
Aaron
01:44:22 – 01:44:31
But I don't know if, personally, I would love to look at it and see, like, oh, man. I may need a chart one day. Do I need it now? Should I buy it now? Is there a way to upgrade?
Aaron
01:44:31 – 01:44:32
That's what I just wanna keep it.
Caleb
01:44:32 – 01:44:40
Simple for launch. It's, like, everybody wants to get in on this thing and use it and mess with it, and let's, like, make it good. It's already good, by the way. Just buy it. Yeah.
Caleb
01:44:40 – 01:44:54
That's great. Buy it. Yeah. Like, I just wanna do one price, get in, do the launch thing, get the launch revenue, then start iterating and tweaking and making it more accessible and finding ways to get more people in the door. Right.
Aaron
01:44:54 – 01:45:04
So some of some of these questions are not applicable to right now. So there's, like, what should we do right now? That's one set of things. And what should we do long term? That's one set of things.
Aaron
01:45:04 – 01:45:06
Right now, I think you just put your head down and keep going.
Caleb
01:45:06 – 01:45:20
The only thing we care about with the long term is what makes it hard and easy right now. You know? Like, is there anything I'm doing that person moves me? Yes. And so if I'm doing let's just say this, like
Aaron
01:45:21 – 01:45:21
I see.
Caleb
01:45:21 – 01:45:26
It's a price let's say it's a lifetime price that's $300 lifetime.
Aaron
01:45:27 – 01:45:27
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Caleb
01:45:27 – 01:45:37
Whatever. I'm I am sacrificing the future revenue for those people who buy that on launch day. That's the value they're getting. That's why they're paying more for lifetime. Correct.
Caleb
01:45:37 – 01:45:39
And is am I okay to live with that? That's the question.
Aaron
01:45:40 – 01:45:40
That is the question.
Caleb
01:45:41 – 01:45:42
Say, yes. I would say yes.
Aaron
01:45:43 – 01:45:53
I think if you are taking the stance that Laravel is getting bigger and Livewire is getting bigger, I think I'm okay with sacrificing that.
Caleb
01:45:53 – 01:46:15
Right. It is growing for sure. And, yeah, getting it so Ian's point is that being on a subscription, people are gonna go, like, I'm not gonna subscribe to your thing. It's kinda like we talked about with, like, pricing, how there's there's, pricing for the value for the people who really get the value Right. And are willing to pay the price and understand that trade.
Caleb
01:46:15 – 01:46:26
Mhmm. Then there's pricing for all the friends and the people who will throw out a flyer. There's that no brainer pricing. Mhmm. And I usually preach to people do the no brainer pricing.
Caleb
01:46:26 – 01:46:40
You know, I see that mistake being made by people where they don't do the no brainer pricing. They go, this price totally justifies. They do it and then they suffer because they only get the people who are truly dedicated. I want this to be no brainer pricing. Yeah.
Caleb
01:46:42 – 01:46:47
And, yeah, like, honestly, 199 lifetime to me is no brainer pricing.
Aaron
01:46:47 – 01:46:49
Like Feels no brainer to me.
Caleb
01:46:49 – 01:46:52
99 lifetime feels, not good.
Aaron
01:46:52 – 01:46:54
Feels great. Yeah.
Caleb
01:46:54 – 01:46:57
Feels, great. Yeah. So, yeah,
Aaron
01:46:57 – 01:46:58
I would up I would up that for sure.
Caleb
01:46:58 – 01:47:09
Yeah. 199 even I mean, even 199 feels low, but like, 299 feels more like it, but it could be a launch sale. Like, 199 lifetime is launch sale, and then just bump it later. You know?
Aaron
01:47:09 – 01:47:23
This is, this is not something you should pursue right now. You should keep your head down and power through. I do think stepping sideways into rails for this particular product could potentially be very lucrative.
Caleb
01:47:23 – 01:47:45
That would be well, so much of this is blade component, whatever. Like, I would have to learn all the ways of the rails blade component, but a good starting point, like we've talked about a little bit, is turning Alpine components into a D live wired flux. You know? Yep. Turn that into a project that uses the same core, but offers just the full template.
Caleb
01:47:45 – 01:47:59
Like, you copy and paste this in your app, and then you componentize it yourself. Feels like it could be, an easy enough thing to do. Mhmm. Yeah. I just have to make sure it's, like, bulletproof with turbo, but whatever.
Caleb
01:47:59 – 01:48:01
I think it I think it is such
Aaron
01:48:01 – 01:48:04
a change. 90% of the way there if it's bulletproof with Livewire.
Caleb
01:48:04 – 01:48:05
Yeah. The only I
Aaron
01:48:05 – 01:48:16
just haven't I haven't seen, that many people respond and say, like, hey, can you please bring this to rails? We're suffering in this regard. That was surprising to me.
Caleb
01:48:16 – 01:48:34
Yeah. It's not an overwhelming amount, but I've heard it a handful of times, and especially the people who are crossovers, like, and obviously, Matt Swanson reached out in 2 seconds. And Chris, so sorry, Chris. I'm forgetting your last name. I if his last name if a profile picture would work, he would see it and go, oh, yeah.
Aaron
01:48:34 – 01:48:34
Yeah.
Caleb
01:48:34 – 01:48:38
Chris, he's one of the, whatever. He's one of us in the rails community.
Aaron
01:48:38 – 01:48:39
You know? Mhmm.
Caleb
01:48:39 – 01:48:49
Okay. And and he's backing for something like that. And, yeah. Because it it would be huge for those communities that can't use shad cn, basically. Mhmm.
Caleb
01:48:49 – 01:49:04
A sexy, sleek UI component library to solve these problems. It's not full buy in, like, like, shoelace or something that's Right. You're getting all the styles as well. Yeah. There's another one that just came that's coming out that so the Font Awesome guys are doing wet awesome.
Caleb
01:49:04 – 01:49:06
You heard of this? No. It's called web awesome.
Aaron
01:49:06 – 01:49:08
I haven't heard of them in years.
Caleb
01:49:08 – 01:49:14
Yeah. Yeah. So they're doing it's called web awesome, and they kick started it. Wow. So that's the thing.
Aaron
01:49:14 – 01:49:14
And so I
Caleb
01:49:14 – 01:49:20
think it's gonna be open source, and they just decided to fundraise upfront and do a kick starter. And I think they raised, like, $700.
Aaron
01:49:21 – 01:49:24
Is it for web awesome. Is it components? Is it, like, it's
Caleb
01:49:24 – 01:49:29
components? So it's yeah. It's very much like the web components I'm shipping, except it's not headless. So
Aaron
01:49:30 – 01:49:30
Got it.
Caleb
01:49:30 – 01:49:59
It is kinda like shoelace if you're familiar with that. That's a web component UI library, whatever, where, like, you're using, you know so the their pitch with Web Awesome is my pitch with the components inside Flux, except with Web Awesome, it's like your dropdown looks like how they made it look Right. Which which makes it super easy and it's, like totally in line with the font awesome, just vibe and it's Right. It's gonna do great. But obviously it's like important to me that you are able to use Tailwind and customize it to your app's needs.
Caleb
01:49:59 – 01:50:16
Sure. So this is still kind of a unique offering and whatever, but honestly, a good idea that came out of this is like, just do a little detour after the dust settles a little bit and just like revamp, Alpine components into a D Laraveled flux, you know?
Aaron
01:50:16 – 01:50:17
Yeah. That's not crazy.
Caleb
01:50:18 – 01:50:23
Yeah. I feel like that would be good. It would redeem a lot of value there under the hood as well. So
Aaron
01:50:23 – 01:50:24
Yeah. Yeah. Alright.
Caleb
01:50:24 – 01:50:32
So I mean, like, as it stands right now on this show, Aaron, I'm feeling like 199 or 299 lifetime launch.
Aaron
01:50:33 – 01:50:34
Unlimited projects.
Caleb
01:50:34 – 01:50:46
Bump that price for more seats. So it's like, if you have a 5, 10 person team, maybe it's like 599, 6 I don't know, something like that. Mhmm. And then anything else is enterprise, and you call me and I, you know, we book a deal. Yep.
Caleb
01:50:46 – 01:50:47
Or whatever. However that works.
Aaron
01:50:47 – 01:50:58
I think that's completely reasonable. And part of me feels like, you're, like, in the storm right now, and a week from now, it's gonna just be, like, oh, yeah. This model's totally fine.
Caleb
01:50:58 – 01:51:01
Let's just keep going. Right. I know. Yeah. Yep.
Caleb
01:51:02 – 01:51:06
Word. Alright. Thanks for joining on Flux. We solved it. You got it.
Caleb
01:51:07 – 01:51:08
Is that it?
Aaron
01:51:08 – 01:51:09
Is that it for today's show?
Caleb
01:51:09 – 01:51:12
What else you got? I'm I'm good. You got anything else?
Aaron
01:51:12 – 01:51:22
Oh, I don't think I have anything else. Ian should be back soon. He is, still sick, but he's getting better. Tomorrow's his
Caleb
01:51:22 – 01:51:23
big day. Right?
Aaron
01:51:23 – 01:51:27
Tomorrow's his big day. He's getting his his gallbladder removed, which who knows what that does.
Caleb
01:51:28 – 01:51:28
Who knows?
Aaron
01:51:28 – 01:51:35
Not me. Yeah. I think that's it. I'll probably unless you have anything, I'll read us out here.
Caleb
01:51:35 – 01:51:38
Oh, yeah. Read us out. Remember that this episode is brought to you by Transistor FM.
Aaron
01:51:39 – 01:51:40
It's kinda cool. Spot I'm
Caleb
01:51:40 – 01:51:45
so sorry, Spot. No. Spotty gets equal. Spotsie is amazing. No.
Caleb
01:51:45 – 01:51:55
Spotsie is amazing. Not Thank you, Spotsie. Thank you, Frank. Let me just make up for my sins real quick, Aaron Francis. It's brought to you by Transistor, but also by Spotsie.
Caleb
01:51:55 – 01:52:02
And, Frake is incredible, obviously, but Sebastian Dedana helped me a lot on, like, lo fi early days, decision making
Aaron
01:52:03 – 01:52:03
Good.
Caleb
01:52:03 – 01:52:03
Because he's
Aaron
01:52:03 – 01:52:04
one of
Caleb
01:52:04 – 01:52:08
the brains that, he's a beautiful brain. And He's a beautiful brain.
Aaron
01:52:08 – 01:52:08
And
Caleb
01:52:08 – 01:52:21
when you're really in the struggle and you need a beautiful brain, I couldn't think of anyone better than Sebastian. I reached out to him, and he helped me, and he's just the best. So he works at Spottsy. You work with Spottsy. You get Sebastian and Frank and all the other super smart people.
Caleb
01:52:21 – 01:52:21
So
Aaron
01:52:22 – 01:52:39
Totally redeemed yourself. Totally redeemed. You can find us at mostlytechnical.com, on Twitter at mostlytechpod, or you can send us emails that I assume Ian reads at mostlytechnicalpodcast@gmail.com. Caleb, where can the people find you?
Caleb
01:52:39 – 01:52:40
They can find me on Twitter.
Aaron
01:52:40 – 01:52:46
Fluxui.dev. Flexui.dev. It's very good. Go buy it. Whatever the price is on the page, that's the price.
Aaron
01:52:46 – 01:52:47
Who knows what it is?
Caleb
01:52:47 – 01:52:56
That's the price. Honestly, if you're preordering, I should take preorder down after after this podcast. But, like, if you're preordering, you're probably getting a deal or something. I don't know. So if you're preordering the preorder folks.
Caleb
01:52:56 – 01:52:57
Give a
Aaron
01:52:57 – 01:53:02
shout out to Logan Craft. It's all his fault. Yeah. Thanks for tuning in to the show. Caleb, thanks for stepping in.
Aaron
01:53:02 – 01:53:03
We'll see you next time.
Caleb
01:53:03 – 01:53:05
Thanks for having me, bud. See
Me

Thanks for reading! My name is Aaron and I write, make videos, and generally try really hard.

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