Zombification

January 21, 2025

Ian and Aaron discuss the importance of seeing your friends in person, why Blade needs to be as fast as possible, weapons grade social media, conferences, and a lot more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. 00:00 What's The Good Word? 11:15 Southern Hospitality 17:05 Degens 19:55 The Blade Czar 28:30 NativePHP on iOS 35:49 Aaron’s Laracon EU Update 45:01 Conferences 56:01 I’m Not A TikTok Man 59:21 PHP Has Never Been Cool
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Transcript

Ian
00:00:00 – 00:00:00
Hello?
Aaron
00:00:01 – 00:00:04
Ian, I've got one question for you.
Ian
00:00:04 – 00:00:07
Oh, hot. Hot. Coming in hot here. Alright. What you got?
Aaron
00:00:07 – 00:00:08
What's a good word?
Ian
00:00:09 – 00:00:13
Oh, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. Yeah.
Aaron
00:00:13 – 00:00:13
It's pretty good.
Ian
00:00:13 – 00:00:17
It's pretty good. It's pretty good. Yeah. That's all I got for you. I thought that It's
Aaron
00:00:17 – 00:00:18
not great.
Ian
00:00:18 – 00:00:22
Not great. Cat. Okay. Better than what? Is it the is it
Aaron
00:00:22 – 00:00:25
the system, the wrist, or is it something else that's amiss?
Ian
00:00:26 – 00:00:30
You had that one you had that one queued up for a week, didn't you? No. No. No. No.
Ian
00:00:30 – 00:00:31
Actually, I've been thinking
Aaron
00:00:31 – 00:00:37
about I've been thinking about other ones for a week, but that one just literally just came to me in the moment.
Ian
00:00:37 – 00:00:42
Organic. Wow. Very impressive. Thank you. Very impressive.
Ian
00:00:43 – 00:00:50
Cyst on the wrist is, doing pretty good. Yeah. No. It's, like, it's basically normal. So they act it and back to normal there.
Ian
00:00:50 – 00:01:03
Guts are pretty much normally with this, the medicine working, so that was good. Yeah. So that that's all pretty good. You're in tip top shape. I wouldn't go that far.
Ian
00:01:03 – 00:01:04
Nah. It's a little far.
Aaron
00:01:04 – 00:01:05
I was giving you
Ian
00:01:05 – 00:01:06
I was giving
Aaron
00:01:06 – 00:01:07
you a little credit there.
Ian
00:01:07 – 00:01:14
I'm still like you know? I didn't know. There's, like, still I would say I'm, like, 85%. Still something. I just feel, like, not totally back.
Ian
00:01:14 – 00:01:23
You know? I don't know. I don't know if one of these, like you know, your body goes through a big thing, and then you're kinda, like it just takes a while to recover still. I don't know. It's busy.
Ian
00:01:23 – 00:01:33
Sun's been home. He's going back today. Lot going on. But, yeah, I mean, I've definitely been worse. So I'm I'm not like I'm not like, I don't know.
Ian
00:01:33 – 00:01:37
What's the when you ask the how what's the good word? What's the bad response? The the
Aaron
00:01:37 – 00:01:42
I think it's either we're making it or we're making it in there.
Ian
00:01:43 – 00:01:44
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ian
00:01:44 – 00:01:51
I'm definitely above that. So that's That's good. Yeah. What's going on there at the Francis household? Oh, man.
Ian
00:01:51 – 00:01:55
Children and All the children. Wives and helpers and all the stuff.
Aaron
00:01:56 – 00:02:12
Just the just the one wife. Many children, one wife, many helpers. You know, not a not a whole lot. We did a so did, like, a baby dedication thing at our church for the youngest two. It's like, it's like the Protestant version of baby baptism.
Aaron
00:02:12 – 00:02:13
It's like
Ian
00:02:13 – 00:02:16
Okay. We kinda just make it we kinda just make it up
Aaron
00:02:16 – 00:02:17
because we don't super believe
Ian
00:02:17 – 00:02:18
in baby baptism. So it's like,
Aaron
00:02:18 – 00:02:20
we we promise to, you know, to raise
Ian
00:02:20 – 00:02:22
our children to do something. But yeah.
Aaron
00:02:22 – 00:02:32
Yeah. Exactly. So that was nice. We had, you know, the whole both sides of, the family showed up for church, and we walked down to the front with all the kids. And I
Ian
00:02:32 – 00:02:34
thought it was a production that happened.
Aaron
00:02:34 – 00:02:38
Oh, such a production. But it was great. You know? Lots of fun. Our families were there.
Aaron
00:02:38 – 00:02:52
Our, like, our home group was like, our church group was there. And so we had to see tons of people, and, it was great. The kids did super great. The big ones, you know, down front in front of the whole congregation was kinda like, are they gonna freak out? And, no, they didn't.
Aaron
00:02:52 – 00:02:52
It was fine.
Ian
00:02:52 – 00:02:54
They just held it together.
Aaron
00:02:54 – 00:02:58
They held it together. So nobody got any family nearby,
Ian
00:02:59 – 00:03:01
or do people have to fly in? Okay.
Aaron
00:03:01 – 00:03:13
Everybody's everybody's nearby. Jennifer has one sister out in Lubbock who, didn't come in for this because it was, you know, just a little thing. But, yeah, everybody my parents are here. Her parents are here. Her sisters are here.
Aaron
00:03:13 – 00:03:22
My my siblings are around here. I've got a few down in Houston area. But, yeah, everybody's everybody's in Texas. If they weren't, we would leave.
Ian
00:03:22 – 00:03:27
There you go. Out of here. No way. You're not giving up that zero taxes. Come on.
Aaron
00:03:27 – 00:03:33
Nobody gets killed there. No. I was just talking about this last night. We do, like, a supper club with some friends once a month.
Ian
00:03:34 – 00:03:34
Oh, nice.
Aaron
00:03:34 – 00:03:43
And you can tell that, like, we're getting old because the topics are like, how do you get into preschool, and what's the deal with property taxes?
Ian
00:03:43 – 00:03:48
And last night, we were talking about property taxes, and they're freaking insane.
Aaron
00:03:48 – 00:03:58
They're insane down here. It's terrible. It's like two and a half, 3% of appraised value every year. And so you never you just never own your property.
Ian
00:03:59 – 00:04:04
Right. I don't know what I said. I guess it's 10. Yeah. It's probably around it's about that two to 3%, I guess.
Ian
00:04:04 – 00:04:06
You know? Two to 3%.
Aaron
00:04:06 – 00:04:08
And you have state income tax?
Ian
00:04:08 – 00:04:11
Yeah. Don't come to New York. If you leave Texas, don't come to New
Aaron
00:04:11 – 00:04:14
York. Worry. That was not on the table.
Ian
00:04:14 – 00:04:18
That's right. Don't go to New York City. You You all go to New York City because I haven't been extra
Aaron
00:04:18 – 00:04:19
booked on. Yeah.
Ian
00:04:19 – 00:04:21
An extra 2% tax in New York City income tax.
Aaron
00:04:22 – 00:04:23
Income tax?
Ian
00:04:23 – 00:04:28
Yeah. City tax. Living by the city? Yes. No.
Aaron
00:04:28 – 00:04:30
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Ian
00:04:30 – 00:04:34
Pay a big privilege to, live in the greatest place where you're
Aaron
00:04:34 – 00:04:37
going to be. And get urinated on. That sounds awesome.
Ian
00:04:37 – 00:04:39
Never been urinated on yet.
Aaron
00:04:39 – 00:04:42
Yeah. Yeah. Yet. You don't spend too much time in the city.
Ian
00:04:42 – 00:04:48
You must be attracted to the people. The people that you attract them in, the urinators. Yes. That guy. He's so crisp looking.
Ian
00:04:48 – 00:04:52
Yeah. Let's pee on him. He's from out of town. Let's pee on him.
Aaron
00:04:55 – 00:05:00
I probably do give off a very out of town vibe when I'm in Ubud City. Yeah. That's definitely good.
Ian
00:05:00 – 00:05:02
See you. Those guys who look like you there.
Aaron
00:05:02 – 00:05:09
Yeah. So Yeah. But I bet I bet they're a lot, I bet they're a lot harsher. I bet they're a lot more confident. They're just, like, bumping into people.
Aaron
00:05:09 – 00:05:12
They're out walking here, that kind of stuff. You know? I have to
Ian
00:05:12 – 00:05:21
tell you, the nicest people on Earth are New York City. You'll never have nicer street interactions in New York City. Everywhere else, nobody will talk to you. Nobody will look at you. It's all terrible.
Ian
00:05:21 – 00:05:27
New York City, the people are used to be on the street. You see people helping people all the time. I do I do like that odd in our guard.
Aaron
00:05:28 – 00:05:39
The odd clip of, like, a mom trying to walk down or up from the subway, and somebody, like, grabs the front of the stroller without saying a word, walks up the stairs, and walks off. I'm like I've
Ian
00:05:39 – 00:05:42
literally seen that myself. I've seen it in person.
Aaron
00:05:42 – 00:05:44
That's perfect. I love that. Like It
Ian
00:05:44 – 00:05:45
just happened.
Aaron
00:05:45 – 00:06:02
In the in the argument between, like, kindness and niceness, that is kindness. Like, you don't have to be you don't have to be flowery or soft or, like, you know capitalist. No. It's just like, I will do this thing for you because it is kind, but I I'm just gonna walk off. Like, we're not best friends.
Aaron
00:06:03 – 00:06:04
It's not the South.
Ian
00:06:04 – 00:06:11
It's obvious you needed this assistance. I'm gonna grab the front. We're gonna go down, and then I'm gonna go on my way, and that's it. Like Yep.
Aaron
00:06:11 – 00:06:11
I do
Ian
00:06:11 – 00:06:14
love it. Yep. That that part is great. That part is
Aaron
00:06:14 – 00:06:20
that is a nice thing about, like, I feel like living in a big city like that,
Ian
00:06:20 – 00:06:21
there is more of a
Aaron
00:06:21 – 00:06:24
sense of, like, we're living in a society, you know, to to quote Jerry.
Ian
00:06:24 – 00:06:26
It's like, there are
Aaron
00:06:26 – 00:06:34
there are rules here, and often times, those rules get broken. But when you see the rules playing out like they should, it's like, yeah. This is a society. I like this.
Ian
00:06:35 – 00:06:49
Yes. It's so hard to have a society not in a city. This is one of the things where I'm very torn. And when we get older, I wanna live in a city at least part of the time because, yeah, I want the people like, just peep not where you have to make like, what you were just saying. Like, I don't know.
Ian
00:06:49 – 00:07:01
You don't we don't have to force it. Like, there's so much forcing it when you live in the suburbs or suburb like places like you live. Where you know what I mean? You have to force it. Like, you can't just there's not serendipitous interactions on the same level.
Ian
00:07:01 – 00:07:01
You know
Aaron
00:07:01 – 00:07:03
what I mean? Like Here's my counterpoint, though.
Ian
00:07:03 – 00:07:03
Mhmm.
Aaron
00:07:03 – 00:07:18
And you say there's too much forcing it. I say there's not enough forcing it because peep people move out. People don't live within, like, bump in proximity of each other, and then they decide that, like, society is dead. Or, like,
Ian
00:07:18 – 00:07:18
you
Aaron
00:07:18 – 00:07:20
can't have friends. Like, oh, you have friends.
Ian
00:07:21 – 00:07:21
The the
Aaron
00:07:21 – 00:07:24
way that you have friends is you plan something.
Ian
00:07:25 – 00:07:31
Right. Well, that's what I mean. Anything. You you plan anything. You have to force it, and then you will force it.
Ian
00:07:31 – 00:07:36
Right? Because, you know, it's a lot of work to continuously force it, and then that's it.
Aaron
00:07:36 – 00:07:52
To continuously be intentional about it. I don't think there's, like, a like, a force is like, hey. I'm having a supper club. I know that none of you wanna come, but you have to come because of some weird, like, social rule. Like, organizing or being intentional about it is, hey.
Aaron
00:07:52 – 00:08:01
I know that everyone wants to get together, and everyone's lonely all the time. And so I've planned this event. Does anyone want to come? And everybody's like, yes. I wanna come.
Aaron
00:08:01 – 00:08:01
This is amazing.
Ian
00:08:02 – 00:08:09
We should do something like that. We used to do stuff. We used to do events. We used to do parties. It does get so much harder as the kids get older.
Ian
00:08:09 – 00:08:29
It's very counterintuitive. But, like, your age kids, we were that was, like, we were at peak, like, doing stuff. And then once you get into, like, you're the chauffeur and you're driving people places and dropping them off, pick them up, and the stuff happens after school and stuff happens later. And you're picking people up at 09:00, and then it's like, do I really wanna do the dinner party? Like Yeah.
Ian
00:08:29 – 00:08:41
At 08:00 on Saturday when all night during the week, I've been out till 09:00 driving people around or doing whatever, running errands or going grocery shopping. There was no other time. Like, it is much harder at that point, I will say.
Aaron
00:08:41 – 00:08:42
So Well I
Ian
00:08:42 – 00:08:46
don't know. But I don't know. I do know that. I don't we also get tired of forcing it. So because there's some of that too.
Ian
00:08:46 – 00:08:51
We gotta get back into forcing it. So we gotta do like it when you force it, like you're saying.
Aaron
00:08:51 – 00:09:07
Well, yes. We gotta get back into planning things. I agree. Planning things. I think planning things is hugely underrated, and I think there's latent demand for like, everyone wants with a broad brush, everyone wants to be doing something with friends.
Aaron
00:09:07 – 00:09:16
Right? Yeah. Everyone is in some regard lonely and thinks that everyone else is doing stuff without them when really everybody is all sitting at home thinking everyone's doing stuff
Ian
00:09:16 – 00:09:17
without me. Yeah.
Aaron
00:09:17 – 00:09:22
And so the, you know, the planners will inherit the world in terms of friendship
Ian
00:09:22 – 00:09:25
because they just, like, give people a reason to get together.
Aaron
00:09:25 – 00:09:27
And it's like, oh, this is amazing.
Ian
00:09:27 – 00:09:44
And it's also there's this trickier bit, I think, as the kids get bigger because, like, you have. And and for people like us, now you're in the full tier of the work. And you were before even remotely work. When you remotely work for somebody else or you work for yourself, like, you don't have work as the the default, like, yeah, I make friends at work. Right?
Ian
00:09:44 – 00:09:52
And I even know you guys. I I have friends who I work with. You know, in the employee, they have different friends, but they're not coming over. Right? Like, they're they're 2,000 miles away.
Ian
00:09:52 – 00:09:52
So We're not
Aaron
00:09:52 – 00:09:54
we're not going out for happy hour every other Friday.
Ian
00:09:54 – 00:10:17
Right. So so you don't have work as of default. Key sort of kid parent friendship time is, again, the young kid age, like, the preschool. I know you end up spending a lot of time at school, and so you end up being with the parents a lot. But, again, once it gets time middle school and done by high school, like, you're not there's not, like, stuff at the school that the parents are all doing together and stuff, so you kinda don't make those newer connections with the parents.
Ian
00:10:18 – 00:10:41
So you do end up in, like, it's a little tricky of, like, where do you actually meet people? Like, where do I go meet new people? It's not, like, such an easy question nowadays, and people aren't necessarily looking for stuff to do because people are busy. You have, obviously, phones and distractions not, you know, a hundred years ago where people are just like, I walk up the street to my local place. Also because we all live in the suburbs, so you can't walk up the street, which is like a whole other
Aaron
00:10:41 – 00:10:42
Can you imagine walking
Ian
00:10:42 – 00:10:46
up the street? Walking up the street would be so good.
Aaron
00:10:46 – 00:10:52
Driving by all those big trucks that are spraying diesel exhaust on you. I don't understand how anyone does it.
Ian
00:10:52 – 00:10:57
There is not a diesel exhaust back then. No. I'm a hundred fifty years ago.
Aaron
00:10:57 – 00:10:59
Everything was just lead and fumes.
Ian
00:10:59 – 00:11:00
So Yeah. Exactly.
Aaron
00:11:00 – 00:11:01
Basically the same.
Ian
00:11:01 – 00:11:06
That was horse poop you were stepping in. You know? But Yeah. That was alright. So, anyway, yes.
Ian
00:11:06 – 00:11:11
This is all it's all of a complicated question. And you're tired. You're old and you're tired. Oh, boy. Tired.
Ian
00:11:11 – 00:11:12
You're tired. You're tired.
Aaron
00:11:13 – 00:11:14
I get that.
Ian
00:11:14 – 00:11:15
Just one of those. We we
Aaron
00:11:15 – 00:11:19
just do once a month. Mhmm. We do once a month. We rotate houses
Ian
00:11:20 – 00:11:21
For the dinner party.
Aaron
00:11:21 – 00:11:29
For the dinner party. And, whoever's house it's at is responsible for everything. And so that. The one like that, Rob.
Ian
00:11:29 – 00:11:31
That's a good rule. The real deal.
Aaron
00:11:31 – 00:11:39
Every, what, three, four months, you have to cook dinner and dessert and wine or whatever for eight or 10 people.
Ian
00:11:39 – 00:11:40
But
Aaron
00:11:40 – 00:11:48
the other times, you literally walk in the front door without the pretense of, like, hey. What can I bring? Can I bring the salad?
Ian
00:11:48 – 00:11:49
It's like That's huge.
Aaron
00:11:49 – 00:11:50
Feed me. I'm here.
Ian
00:11:50 – 00:11:56
And it's great. Yeah. If it was you had if everybody was if it was potlucking it, then that's just gonna work for you every month,
Aaron
00:11:56 – 00:11:56
and
Ian
00:11:56 – 00:12:01
that's annoying. Then you're annoyed. You're like, no. I got, I gotta go get the stuff or the salad. Maybe I'll get
Aaron
00:12:01 – 00:12:03
some more of those. Yeah.
Ian
00:12:03 – 00:12:04
Right. Yeah.
Aaron
00:12:04 – 00:12:05
Give me a break.
Ian
00:12:05 – 00:12:09
Okay. Interesting. Now you got so this is, like, ten, five couples or something like that?
Aaron
00:12:09 – 00:12:09
Like that.
Ian
00:12:09 – 00:12:13
Yeah. That's interesting. Mhmm. It's interesting. Mhmm.
Ian
00:12:13 – 00:12:18
Yeah. I might oh, there's maybe something here. Jamie's listening to this. She usually listens. So Jamie, it's a good idea.
Ian
00:12:19 – 00:12:25
Maybe we should talk something like this. Get some people together. Get get go ahead. I
Aaron
00:12:25 – 00:12:38
was gonna say, and it and it's easy. Like, it's, it's not intimidating to offer this to another set of couples. Right? It's like, hey. You wanna you wanna get together every now and then for dinner?
Aaron
00:12:38 – 00:12:48
Like, we can start at my house. And then at that dinner, the first one, you can just say, should we do this again? This was great. Does anyone wanna host next time? And then you're kinda like, you're kinda off to the races.
Aaron
00:12:48 – 00:12:53
You know? You gotta slow play. You gotta lure the people out of their hiding.
Ian
00:12:53 – 00:13:00
What are you gonna do, of course, on this stuff? What are you gonna do? Southern hospitality. Southern hospitality with Aaron Francis. That's what we need.
Aaron
00:13:00 – 00:13:04
The other one the other one is is, guy's breakfast. You gotta get a guy's
Ian
00:13:04 – 00:13:05
breakfast. A guy's breakfast.
Aaron
00:13:06 – 00:13:14
Every every three or four weeks, you get together with the boys, and you have some some bad tacos or some Waffle House or something.
Ian
00:13:14 – 00:13:16
We can't even get breakfast tacos here. This is the problem.
Aaron
00:13:16 – 00:13:16
If I
Ian
00:13:16 – 00:13:19
can get breakfast tacos, maybe I'd do it. But
Aaron
00:13:19 – 00:13:22
All those taxes and no tacos. That's crazy. Yeah.
Ian
00:13:22 – 00:13:22
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron
00:13:22 – 00:13:26
That's the other one. You gotta you gotta get a little you gotta get a little guy's breakfast going.
Ian
00:13:26 – 00:13:27
Okay.
Aaron
00:13:27 – 00:13:28
That's the good stuff, man.
Ian
00:13:29 – 00:13:30
Interesting.
Aaron
00:13:30 – 00:13:35
Here's the here's the trick to here's the trick to a successful guy's breakfast
Ian
00:13:35 – 00:13:35
Mhmm.
Aaron
00:13:36 – 00:13:50
Is it has to be it has to be a big enough group so so that, like, two or three or four people not coming isn't a big deal. So you gotta have, like, you gotta have, like, I wanna say six to 10 people in the
Ian
00:13:50 – 00:13:54
mix. Oh, okay. Kind of a hurdle. Kind of a hurdle. It's a little tricky.
Ian
00:13:54 – 00:13:57
I know I go with that right now. You can start you can start smaller if
Aaron
00:13:57 – 00:13:58
you have committed guys. Build
Ian
00:13:58 – 00:13:58
them up. Yeah. You
Aaron
00:13:58 – 00:14:16
could. And then the other trick is, it's got to be you gotta have a spot, and you gotta have a time. Mhmm. Because if it's like if it's like every now and then, you're texting six or eight guys, and you're like, hey. When do you how how what's when's who who can it's never gonna work.
Ian
00:14:16 – 00:14:19
Alright. You're never gonna work. It's gotta be a standing meeting.
Aaron
00:14:19 – 00:14:26
Yes. You have to be comfortable with saying the first Friday morning of every month at 7AM, I'm gonna be at
Ian
00:14:26 – 00:14:29
the taqueria or whatever. Right? Right. Right. And
Aaron
00:14:29 – 00:14:32
you have to be comfortable with being the only person there.
Ian
00:14:33 – 00:14:34
Because that
Aaron
00:14:34 – 00:14:47
that will definitely happen. But there's something comforting about, never having to ask, hey. Is anybody going to this thing? Because you know that the organizer is always going to be there. So it's a nice way to reminders?
Aaron
00:14:48 – 00:14:57
Yeah. You can send reminders. Mhmm. But it's a nice way to frame, like, hey. I go to this place every first Friday or every other Friday for breakfast.
Aaron
00:14:58 – 00:15:14
If you guys wanna join, I will be there at seven. And, eventually, people start to think like, oh, yeah. I should go I should go to that thing. I should go to that breakfast and see who's there. And it's, like, way lower pressure than, like, having to organize on the fly every month or every couple weeks.
Ian
00:15:14 – 00:15:20
I like that idea. That's also another good Jamie idea. Jamie, that's a good idea for you. Because Jamie's into that kind of thing. I could see her.
Ian
00:15:20 – 00:15:26
But it's a woman the woman's version of the same thing. Woman's breakfast. Just a standing thing and bite some people.
Aaron
00:15:26 – 00:15:41
The standing thing is very, very powerful. We did a Yeah. Back when back when I was, quite young and single, I was, you know, 23 or four or something. Mhmm. And all my friends had just gotten married, and I just moved back from College Station to Dallas.
Aaron
00:15:41 – 00:15:57
And I was like, man, everybody's married and, like, probably hanging out with their wives and stuff. So what am I gonna do? And so I started a standing there was this restaurant around here that did these awful, god awful $2 margaritas every Monday night. Oh, yeah. Terrible.
Aaron
00:15:58 – 00:16:02
But when you're 23 and you're broke, you're like, $2 for a margarita? That sounds awesome.
Ian
00:16:02 – 00:16:02
Right.
Aaron
00:16:03 – 00:16:14
So every Monday night, we would go to we would go to Ozona's and have $2 marks. And it it just, like, expanded from three or four people to, like, 15 to 20 to 25 because
Ian
00:16:14 – 00:16:15
Oh my goodness.
Aaron
00:16:15 – 00:16:24
Everybody wants to have a place to go. Like, everybody wants to belong. And if you just know there's a group at Ozona's every Monday night at eight, people are gonna show up.
Ian
00:16:24 – 00:16:34
You're just always bringing the people together. Gotta bring the people together. I'm telling you, I think this is a course. We're giving it away for free here, but most people haven't listened to this.
Aaron
00:16:34 – 00:16:34
That's right.
Ian
00:16:34 – 00:16:38
You gotta sell this. I think it'll be a cool little side thing.
Aaron
00:16:38 – 00:16:39
How to have friends.
Ian
00:16:40 – 00:16:44
Yeah. Yeah. How to make friends and influence people or
Aaron
00:16:44 – 00:16:46
That's right. That's a good title. I should write that down.
Ian
00:16:46 – 00:16:52
You should do that. I like this. Alright. Alright. I do want to this is, like, a thing in the area I'd like to push on a little bit.
Ian
00:16:52 – 00:17:02
Definitely been, coasting. Like, not as engaged with the other humans as I should be. Mhmm. So Mhmm. This is interesting.
Ian
00:17:03 – 00:17:22
Mhmm. I've built up a thing. I sort of have a thing similar to this, but, with the the PLO game I've been playing in recently where it's like, the sort of a group that's generally there, and so that's kind of formed around this game. The thing with poker people, though, is just sort of degenerates, obviously. Yes.
Ian
00:17:22 – 00:17:41
They are. It's sort of its own little world. It's not like people I would necessarily choose to hang out with, but it is a group of humans I do, occasionally hang out with every, you know, other week or so. So there's a little bit of that, but it's not quite obviously the same as a, nice group dinner with the, the wives and everybody together. So
Aaron
00:17:41 – 00:17:43
Upstanding members of society.
Ian
00:17:43 – 00:17:46
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I get both sides. You know?
Ian
00:17:46 – 00:17:46
Ying and yang.
Aaron
00:17:46 – 00:17:51
I will tell you. I was part of a regular, poker house game for a little bit until
Ian
00:17:51 – 00:17:52
look at that.
Aaron
00:17:52 – 00:17:56
Until I got, I got disinvited, but I was a regular for a while. Yeah. It was great.
Ian
00:17:57 – 00:17:59
Crushing? You were you were taking all their money, so they
Aaron
00:17:59 – 00:18:04
disinvited you? I was coming I was coming primarily as, like, a buffer, like, as a favor.
Ian
00:18:05 – 00:18:05
As an extra
Aaron
00:18:06 – 00:18:11
As an extra person, and I I stopped being needed. They found, like, more people.
Ian
00:18:11 – 00:18:11
Regular.
Aaron
00:18:12 – 00:18:24
Yeah. So it was like my friend, probably my closest friend in the world, was hosting this game, and it's a bunch of attorneys. And he he is also an attorney, and, like, they just didn't have enough people. And I'm a I'm a good everyman. You know?
Aaron
00:18:24 – 00:18:28
I can I can yuck it up with new folks? And so
Ian
00:18:28 – 00:18:29
I played for a long time, and
Aaron
00:18:29 – 00:18:48
it was great. We'd start on a it also got a lot harder after we had the second set, but it would start on, like, a Saturday, like, two or three. And we would play until, you know, six or seven, and we'd order pizza and then have drinks and sit around and talk for, like, thirty, forty five minutes, and then we would continue to play for, you know, for a little bit after that.
Ian
00:18:48 – 00:18:53
And it was great, Scott. I didn't realize you were that hardcore into the poker. Okay. Oh, yeah.
Aaron
00:18:54 – 00:18:58
I easily, every time, lost 50 to a hundred dollars.
Ian
00:18:58 – 00:18:58
So Yeah.
Aaron
00:18:59 – 00:19:00
It was great. I love the game.
Ian
00:19:00 – 00:19:07
What what kind what kind of attorneys are these playing for low stakes like that? Come on. They got up the they got up the stakes a little bit here.
Aaron
00:19:07 – 00:19:09
I don't know. You just you know, you don't Alright.
Ian
00:19:09 – 00:19:10
Keeping it friendly.
Aaron
00:19:10 – 00:19:17
Yeah. You can't have a fun, friendly house game for a thousand dollars. You know? That's not that's not quite as fun.
Ian
00:19:18 – 00:19:21
I guess so. That's what all the juice is, though. You know?
Aaron
00:19:21 – 00:19:28
Yeah. Well, that's where you go to the poker rooms with the degens that aren't your friends that you can just, like take their money. Ruthlessly crush. Yeah.
Ian
00:19:28 – 00:19:33
Oh, it is kinda great taking your friend's money, though, too. You know? There's something glorious about taking your friend's money.
Aaron
00:19:33 – 00:19:38
Just having your money taken by a friend, which is the experience I have had, is less fun,
Ian
00:19:38 – 00:19:41
I must admit. I'm sure it's great to be on
Aaron
00:19:41 – 00:19:41
your side.
Ian
00:19:42 – 00:19:48
No, man. Alright. What's going on? What do we got this week? I think we need some more technical.
Ian
00:19:48 – 00:19:53
Yeah. Technical this week. You you put a tech topic on here. Let's start with yours. Like, what
Aaron
00:19:53 – 00:19:54
do you got here? Tell me.
Ian
00:19:54 – 00:20:21
So a while back on Blue Sky, I think, Marcel maybe, what K. Posted about, performance issues and Laravel and who's seen performance issues Mhmm. So on and so forth. And I've never really seen any with Laravel that I would other than, components. Like, if you have a bunch of components on a page, then it gets Blade components.
Ian
00:20:21 – 00:20:30
Yeah. Blade components. Yep. So K. Whatever, put in my 2¢, and a guy showed up who, he's been around for a while.
Aaron
00:20:30 – 00:20:31
I know this guy.
Ian
00:20:31 – 00:20:32
Yeah. What's the name? What I
Aaron
00:20:32 – 00:20:33
don't know. But I know
Ian
00:20:33 – 00:20:34
his space.
Aaron
00:20:34 – 00:20:35
Mike And I know
Ian
00:20:35 – 00:20:39
his avatar. John Jonathan Kostya. There you go. Out there. That's exactly right.
Ian
00:20:39 – 00:20:52
Yeah. So he's been around a while. Yeah. I I know Space interacted them here and there on Twitter and whatnot. And, so he said he was working on a package to fix this, and he released it today, and it's called Dagger.
Aaron
00:20:52 – 00:20:53
He released
Ian
00:20:53 – 00:20:57
it? Yes. It's released. And so, you can check it out.
Aaron
00:20:57 – 00:20:59
He is the blade whisperer.
Ian
00:20:59 – 00:21:02
Yeah. He has another package that does some blade stuff, I think.
Aaron
00:21:03 – 00:21:14
And I think he has the, like, the the, like, syntax or, like, code style formatter for blade. Like, he's the only one that's ever been able to do it because blade is not real. It's just a bunch of regexes.
Ian
00:21:15 – 00:21:22
Right. Yeah. That's right. So it's very well documented. There's a bunch of docs, and I haven't gone too deeply in it.
Ian
00:21:22 – 00:21:58
But the basic idea here is that you have a you make a dagger component instead of a blade component. And it's basically working blade component. But it basically has a whole precompilation step so that everything's precompiles that no matter how sort of deeply nested things get, there's it's all prerendered and figured out. And so I think there's also no, no class based components, which I assume would be much slower because then you'd have to, like, instantiate the class always, which is, I think, is kinda what gets blade components into troubles. Like, if you have to instantiate 2,000 classes, then that just takes a long time.
Ian
00:21:59 – 00:22:27
So, yeah, so it renders everything out into, like, I assume, I haven't looked this deeply into, you know, various loops and things and pre renders the template into the blade template in some fashion. And so it's all there, and so it can just do normal PHP stuff instead of, you know, again, instantiate classes. And yeah. And so that's your high performance bleed component. And so I think it's really cool.
Ian
00:22:27 – 00:22:57
I mean, I know I think he had even interacted with Taylor a little bit. I don't know if he updated Taylor yet, about the idea of maybe doing you know, obviously, Taylor, I think, would, like, in core to have a faster version, because I think, you know, his end, this is one of the things that comes up most in terms of Laravel performance. Because it's just something that could hit you without any load at all. It's just like you could just be working on your local machine. And if you have especially things like data table or whatever that just has all 300 rows of a data table and every cell's a component, it's just gonna be slow a lot of times.
Ian
00:22:57 – 00:23:12
And so yeah. So I think doing it as a package is kinda interesting and then see how it goes. Maybe at some point, either it gets pulled in or it gets at well the bit, into something that could work in the core, but I don't know. I think it's pretty interesting. I don't know.
Ian
00:23:12 – 00:23:13
Have you hit this issue?
Aaron
00:23:13 – 00:23:35
I haven't. No. Because, I haven't done a lot of I haven't done a lot of blade components. And to my knowledge and my understanding, you you can get hit with this pretty easily when you're, using Livewire, which is no fault of Livewires. But when you're using Livewire, you've got a ton of like, you're relying pretty heavily on components.
Aaron
00:23:35 – 00:23:52
And Right. Presumably, you have a lot of, like, interactivity, and you've got, you're doing a lot more with Blade once you pick up Livewire. And so some of Blade's shortcomings, become more obvious when you're using Livewire. Again, that is not a Livewire problem. That is a Blade problem.
Aaron
00:23:53 – 00:24:11
My so I just found Dagger. It's, it's on GitHub, so I was just looking through it. Here's here's here's a good, bet for us. How long until how long until, let's get his name right, Jon Koster is a Laravel Inc. Employee.
Aaron
00:24:11 – 00:24:12
That's the real question.
Ian
00:24:14 – 00:24:18
Everybody gets tired by Larabel Inc. I don't know. I don't know about that. Could happen. Right?
Ian
00:24:18 – 00:24:21
Ho hopefully, for him, it happens. That would be good for him.
Aaron
00:24:21 – 00:24:22
Gonna happen. Are you crazy?
Ian
00:24:23 – 00:24:32
He's, what his employment situation is, but, yeah, just assuming this all works, which I don't have any reason to believe it doesn't, then He's gonna
Aaron
00:24:32 – 00:24:35
be he's totally gonna become the blade czar for sure.
Ian
00:24:35 – 00:24:37
Yeah. Just I'm in charge of blade. I like it.
Aaron
00:24:37 – 00:24:59
I think he's the one he's the only one that has written, like, I don't know if it's I don't know if it's an LSP because I don't know what an LSP is, but he's the only one that's written, like, a blade parser to any degree. He's obviously conquered this blade performance stuff. And I remember Taylor at one point tweeting, like, you know, I'll I'll give you $10,000 if you can, like, do this thing.
Ian
00:24:59 – 00:24:59
And I
Aaron
00:24:59 – 00:25:10
was like, oh, damn. This must Blade must be an issue here. So I just I don't know. This is, to me, this is a job application and a very, very good one.
Ian
00:25:11 – 00:25:34
Yeah. The, docs are quite impressive. I mean, yeah, there are. This is so is covered in there. And it also is, like, there's some interesting stuff where it's cross compatible with things like I think some of the, like, like, push and the stacks and things like that that work across and because I assume it just compiles it into, like, the blade version in the rendered template or whatever.
Ian
00:25:34 – 00:25:44
So, so you can kind of, like, intermix a lot of that stuff. Yeah. I don't know. It looks it looks good. We might have a need of something like this ourselves.
Ian
00:25:44 – 00:25:58
I haven't had direct need of this in a while, but, some of the, like, HubSpot update to Plunk Mhmm. Could could possibly use this depending how we end up building that out. Yeah. I don't know. So I thought it was cool.
Ian
00:25:58 – 00:26:09
It's been a while since I've been intrigued by a package. So, yeah, I saw this. I was like, yeah, man. This is like hopefully, I I hope that he gets hired, and then I hope, yeah, it comes into the core because I just think blades should just always be really fast. You know?
Ian
00:26:09 – 00:26:10
It's like
Aaron
00:26:10 – 00:26:10
It should be.
Ian
00:26:10 – 00:26:37
It's one of the only areas that's not blazing fast, and, and it is for, you know, kinda your standard use case. But like you said, when you get into interactivity, whether it's Livewire or, you know, just other sorts of big rendering of it seems like one of those things where, like, in your fake hello world type things you see, it's like, oh, it's all fine. But then when you actually build something and it's like the customer wants Yep. 1,500 rows or 5,000 rows, and they want it all on one screen. Right?
Ian
00:26:37 – 00:26:47
Then then that's a whole different world. Right? Then it's like, oh, when you render 5,000 rows with 10 columns, that's, you know, a zillion cells, and each one of those will play
Aaron
00:26:47 – 00:26:49
cell has an icon. Right.
Ian
00:26:49 – 00:26:57
Yeah. Because then you draw a top on top of it. Yeah. So now you're rendering, like, 50,000 component renders, and it actually performs like crap. Yeah.
Ian
00:26:57 – 00:27:13
I think that would be cool to get that as, like, you know, in some way, the idea is a bit integrated, itself integrated, whatever the case may be, assuming it works. But I'm sure, like you said, I know Taylor's been for a while. I know they actually did some work. I think they got it quite a bit faster. I think they did.
Ian
00:27:13 – 00:27:26
Wanna say in Laravel 11 or something, they did make some improvements in 10 or 11. That did help it a lot. But, but, yeah, I think obviously, so this kind of prerendering idea seems to me to be probably the only real way to do it.
Aaron
00:27:26 – 00:27:30
I think probably so. I missed is there a build step?
Ian
00:27:31 – 00:27:37
There is some kind of build step. And then there's, like, a JSON file that's, like, it's cached.
Aaron
00:27:37 – 00:27:41
There's a manifest, which makes me think there's a build stat.
Ian
00:27:42 – 00:27:53
Yeah. There definitely is. But I don't know if it's just happening dynamically in some way. It just you might not have to, overtly build it. I don't think I've seen it.
Ian
00:27:53 – 00:28:01
Run time build it. I think so. I think if it's a check and it sees something changed or something like that, then That's a good way to do it. But I don't
Aaron
00:28:01 – 00:28:03
Yeah. It doesn't it doesn't look
Ian
00:28:03 – 00:28:04
like making this up right now. I mean,
Aaron
00:28:04 – 00:28:06
I haven't seen, like, c build runner or anything.
Ian
00:28:06 – 00:28:11
Right. I would think, like, at the top here would be, like, then you have to run this console command
Aaron
00:28:11 – 00:28:20
or whatever. Yeah. Insulation merely says require it, run Dagger install, and that's it. So Yeah. There's there's not, like, a build process or a build script or anything.
Ian
00:28:20 – 00:28:20
Yep.
Aaron
00:28:21 – 00:28:22
Good for him.
Ian
00:28:22 – 00:28:31
Yeah. So, anyway, that's a little Laravel corner there. Thought that looked pretty cool. You have a similar one on here.
Aaron
00:28:31 – 00:28:43
I do. It's the year it's the year of, Laravel again for, like, the past ten years. Have you been following Simon Hamps' explorations for native PHP on iOS?
Ian
00:28:43 – 00:28:49
Little bit. I have. Yeah. I haven't, like, gone super deep on it, but I see him posting about it. And I'm like, this sounds insane, but also
Aaron
00:28:49 – 00:28:50
It does sound insane.
Ian
00:28:50 – 00:28:55
Intriguing. Yeah. You It's why I don't this is the year of the, like, where can we push
Aaron
00:28:55 – 00:28:55
What is
Ian
00:28:55 – 00:29:07
Laravel, yeah, into weird place? What if the terminal did all kinds of stupid stuff? What if we ran Laravel in iOS? I'm saying stupid in the, you know, in the
Aaron
00:29:07 – 00:29:08
In the awesome nineties.
Ian
00:29:08 – 00:29:10
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. In the nineties.
Aaron
00:29:10 – 00:29:21
I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So native PHP from my as far as I understand it, has has kind of a a weird history.
Aaron
00:29:21 – 00:29:27
I don't actually know who's, like, in charge or, like, started native PHP. I feel like Yeah.
Ian
00:29:27 – 00:29:28
I think it was him. Right?
Aaron
00:29:28 – 00:29:30
I know. I can't tell.
Ian
00:29:30 – 00:29:33
I feel like he was not even You talked about it. He was in Marcel.
Aaron
00:29:33 – 00:29:34
I know.
Ian
00:29:34 – 00:29:39
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was Marcel. I thought Marcel was in the loop here somehow, but I never see Marcel talking about it.
Ian
00:29:39 – 00:29:41
And I always see someone talking about it.
Aaron
00:29:41 – 00:29:42
Where'd he go?
Ian
00:29:42 – 00:29:47
So I don't know. I don't know. I was like, did I make that up? Maybe I made it up, and it was some other because Marcel does does 18,000,000 things. Right?
Ian
00:29:47 – 00:29:53
So I don't know. He's it could just be it could have been some other thing that was very similar to this, but isn't this. And I would not just definitely this.
Aaron
00:29:53 – 00:29:57
Marcel spoke on native PHP desktop at one of the Laricons.
Ian
00:29:58 – 00:30:00
I think this is how they do herd. Right?
Aaron
00:30:00 – 00:30:06
I don't actually think Marcel has shipped any native PHP. I don't think herd is native PHP. I think it's Swift.
Ian
00:30:07 – 00:30:09
I'm pretty sure that that is
Aaron
00:30:09 – 00:30:12
not true. I'm pretty sure that's not true.
Ian
00:30:12 – 00:30:13
Really? I think
Aaron
00:30:13 – 00:30:14
I think that is not true.
Ian
00:30:14 – 00:30:15
Okay. Alright.
Aaron
00:30:15 – 00:30:30
Yeah. There was a time there was a time when I was gonna, tinker with a desktop application, and I asked Marcel, should I use native PHP? And he said, no. Not yet. So I don't think I don't think heard that they're shipping and charging people for is native PHP.
Aaron
00:30:31 – 00:30:43
So I think this this is gonna be a hundred well, there's a % chance that this is wrong. Mhmm. But I think Simon started native PHP, and then Marcel came in, and they, like, ended up partnering up and helping.
Ian
00:30:43 – 00:30:43
And
Aaron
00:30:43 – 00:30:53
now Simon is running PHP native PHP iOS. I don't know if that's right. That's the that's kind of my memory. Doesn't matter.
Ian
00:30:53 – 00:30:53
Yeah.
Aaron
00:30:53 – 00:31:05
So it started on the desktop, and then Simon has been pushing to get PHP running on iOS such that he can build, you know, full featured applications on mobile using PHP,
Ian
00:31:05 – 00:31:06
which Wild.
Aaron
00:31:06 – 00:31:09
Is wild. And, like
Ian
00:31:10 – 00:31:14
I guess it's just rendering HTML. Right? Like, I assume yeah. Okay.
Aaron
00:31:14 – 00:31:31
Yeah. So the real question is, will it get through iOS approval, which is the process he's currently in right now. Because if it if it gets booted for having ex executable code that's, like, like, runtime executable. I think
Ian
00:31:31 – 00:31:31
Right.
Aaron
00:31:31 – 00:31:33
They don't like that very much. So
Ian
00:31:33 – 00:31:34
That's my understanding.
Aaron
00:31:35 – 00:31:41
Yeah. We'll see if it gets through. I hope it gets through because he's given a talk on it at Laracon EU. So I hope it works.
Ian
00:31:41 – 00:31:50
Yeah. Because that's a problem that the emulators have. Like like, game emulators and stuff, they're like, no. Could you have the runtime executing? And Yeah.
Ian
00:31:50 – 00:31:54
That opens up a million, you know, security holes and all that.
Aaron
00:31:54 – 00:32:04
I from what from what I've seen, I think he has said that all of the executable code is shipped in the binary, and there's no way to send new stuff over the wire
Ian
00:32:04 – 00:32:04
to execute.
Aaron
00:32:05 – 00:32:14
And I think that's the issue that most of these run into is, like, hey. We'll just ship a web view, and then we'll render whatever we want from a remote server. And they're like, no. It's not really an app.
Ian
00:32:14 – 00:32:19
Right. If you wanna pull in new PHP code that you dynamically execute, and then that's the problem. Yeah.
Aaron
00:32:19 – 00:32:26
I think that's the problem. So, hopefully, he gets he gets by, and that doesn't become, you know, sticky wicket because that that's
Ian
00:32:26 – 00:32:26
kinda game
Aaron
00:32:27 – 00:32:30
cool. Kinda game over if it is. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Ian
00:32:30 – 00:32:30
Not a
Aaron
00:32:30 – 00:32:37
lot of point in pressing forward if you can't publish it. Yeah. But I'm excited. I think it I think if he pulls it off, it'll be really interesting.
Ian
00:32:38 – 00:32:39
For sure.
Aaron
00:32:39 – 00:33:17
And it really makes like, it makes, it makes Livewire a much more, like, interesting option to use on mobile because the server and the thing, like, the, you know, the front end, are zero milliseconds apart. And so using using Livewire on, native PHP and iOS would be really interesting. And you get to say all in PHP. There's no round trip server penalty beyond just, like, you know, internal network ops, which should be fine. And you can do anything.
Aaron
00:33:17 – 00:33:28
And so I'm I'm excited. I hope I hope he pulls it off. And I still wanna build a desktop app with with native PHP, but I don't know I don't know the status. It seems like it's kind of stalled out or slowed down a little bit.
Ian
00:33:29 – 00:33:46
Yeah. Well, this would presumably, bump it up, right, if this works. And it's, like, cool because, like, they're definitely I mean, I think nowadays, but, well, people kinda wanna build mobile apps. Right? It's like desktop apps are interesting for specific edge case use cases, but if you had most people wanna build a mobile app.
Ian
00:33:46 – 00:34:11
It's like if you're building a native app. And, yeah, and I think I definitely had mobile app ideas, but it's like, well, like, to get in there and learn swift or whatever. That's like adds just, like, a huge learning curve that I don't have time to mess with. And so, yeah, if you could, like, build out a v one that's like, yeah, maybe if it's not optimal, it can't literally do everything Swift could do or it's a little slower or what you know? Like, who cares?
Ian
00:34:11 – 00:34:33
Because it's just v one. And if it if it takes off, you can always build a proper, fully native everything version. Yep. Or if this just works fast enough and you never have to do that, even better. But, like, definitely for that, like, prototyping early versions, like, to be able to stay in PHP would be super nice, make it all much more doable.
Ian
00:34:33 – 00:34:55
So Mhmm. Even things for, like, with HubSpot, we wanna do, at some point, like you know, having mobile apps is such a pain in the butt. We don't really focus on them because it's not, like, a main thing. Not most of the users don't use the mobile apps, so it's, like, this edge thing. So it's like, well, do we just do the responsive, you know, in, progressive, you know, web UI type of thing, which is fine.
Ian
00:34:55 – 00:35:23
But then, like, the users do use it. Obviously, they don't necessarily know how that all works, which you could help them, blah blah. But it's it's still, like, a weird sort of thing. And it would be cool if it if you could maybe have even just to making a shell app, this would be nicer if you could then, like, the other ways you could build a shell app, which are really kind of annoying and have some weird downsides themselves. So, yeah, even for, like, other simple use cases like that, it could be really cool to know that, like, hey.
Ian
00:35:23 – 00:35:29
PHP is in there, and if we wanna tweak some stuff, we know how to write it and all that stuff. So yeah. I don't know. It's interesting.
Aaron
00:35:29 – 00:35:39
Yeah. I'm I'm I'm excited. I'm pumped to see what he's gonna speak on or or the the demos he's going to do at Laracon EU. I think it's gonna be fun.
Ian
00:35:39 – 00:35:45
Did Laracon EU, did we get a schedule yet? No schedule? No schedule yet. They're going to the last minute here with the schedule.
Aaron
00:35:45 – 00:35:46
Minute. No schedule?
Ian
00:35:46 – 00:35:52
No schedule. You hate to see that. How's your stuff going? Are we are we ready? Are we ready with the library?
Aaron
00:35:53 – 00:35:58
Ready. What is ready? No. We're not ready. So let's see.
Aaron
00:35:59 – 00:36:02
Do you remember what percentage done I was last week?
Ian
00:36:03 – 00:36:05
You had gone from 80 to 50?
Aaron
00:36:05 – 00:36:09
Alright. Let's knock off another 10. We're we're 40% done now.
Ian
00:36:09 – 00:36:11
Yeah. Well, you're heading the right direction.
Aaron
00:36:11 – 00:36:23
We're heading the right direction. It is, the road expands before me continuously, but, it is it's it's very good.
Ian
00:36:24 – 00:36:24
Okay.
Aaron
00:36:24 – 00:36:42
If if I may yes. If I may, pat myself on the back, it is it is quite good. I'm very happy with it. Mhmm. I have gone I have gone deeper into the depths of darkness than I expected in terms of, how this is working.
Aaron
00:36:42 – 00:36:42
I've got
Ian
00:36:43 – 00:36:45
your theme last few months here.
Aaron
00:36:45 – 00:36:58
Boy, isn't it? I've got, so I I I won't spell any of the the good stuff, but let's just say I've got, JavaScript code that writes JavaScript. Mhmm. I've got PHP code that writes
Ian
00:36:58 – 00:37:00
PHP. Wrong there. Mhmm.
Aaron
00:37:00 – 00:37:05
I've got JavaScript code that writes PHP, and I've got PHP code that writes JavaScript.
Ian
00:37:05 – 00:37:08
So I got the whole quadrant covered.
Aaron
00:37:08 – 00:37:11
That's right. Everybody is writing everything all the time.
Ian
00:37:12 – 00:37:13
Okay.
Aaron
00:37:13 – 00:37:20
And it's great. I'm doing I'm doing, parsing of PHP abstract syntax trees.
Ian
00:37:21 – 00:37:21
Oh my goodness.
Aaron
00:37:21 – 00:37:33
It's it is we're all over the place, baby, and it's good. It's very good. I'm excited. I showed it to Steve. Steve is Steve is kinda like my my avatar for this.
Aaron
00:37:33 – 00:37:48
Like, if I can get Steve interested, then I know I've got something good. And I texted him a screenshot last night, and he said something like, this is it. Holy crap. Like, this is the way I wanna learn Laravel. And I was like, oh my god.
Ian
00:37:48 – 00:37:49
Oh, boy. Holy
Aaron
00:37:49 – 00:37:50
cow. Steve.
Ian
00:37:51 – 00:37:58
Wow. Mhmm. Man, I'm excited for us to get out there so we can have a proper conversation. I know.
Aaron
00:37:58 – 00:37:58
I know.
Ian
00:37:58 – 00:38:09
Sounds like a bit this sounds like something that's gonna require quite a bit of maintenance. Whoops. Quite a bit of maintenance. But not sound like, you throw it up there, and it's good to go. No.
Ian
00:38:09 – 00:38:12
No. No. Still be I'll be intrigued about the that whole end of this story here.
Aaron
00:38:12 – 00:38:35
Yes. And I think it's becoming more, as, you know, as I get closer on it and as Steve and I talk about it more and more, I think it is becoming more of a, pillar of the business. So it's not just going to be like, hey. Let's do this to get attention and then sell database courses. I think this is becoming more of a leg of of a
Ian
00:38:35 – 00:38:39
proper, like, operating unit. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Aaron
00:38:40 – 00:38:40
Mhmm.
Ian
00:38:40 – 00:38:47
Alright. Well, you can't give us any more juice right now, so we're gonna have to buy some help. But soon. Let's see. Oh, wait.
Ian
00:38:47 – 00:38:51
So let's see. That's was that two weeks away? I guess two weeks. Two Mondays now.
Aaron
00:38:51 – 00:38:52
Not great. Not great.
Ian
00:38:52 – 00:38:54
And you started to talk yet
Aaron
00:38:54 – 00:39:11
in your head at least? The answer is no. But, yes, in my head in my head, I have. I've, you know, run through five or six different openings, and I think I I found one I think I found one that's gonna work. Because you really gotta you know, with a big reveal, you gotta, like, you gotta wow them.
Aaron
00:39:11 – 00:39:25
Because if you do a big reveal and it's like, oh, boy, that guy that guy is kind of an idiot. So, I think I have a good a good opening and a good powerful initial demo, and then we can kinda get off into the weeds. But I think it's gonna work.
Ian
00:39:25 – 00:39:30
You mean you got 30, 40 minutes? I think twenty. Twenty minutes?
Aaron
00:39:30 – 00:39:30
I know.
Ian
00:39:31 – 00:39:31
Woah.
Aaron
00:39:32 – 00:39:38
I asked Kaneko, hey. How how long are these talks? Because, I had no idea how long the talks were.
Ian
00:39:38 – 00:39:38
Right.
Aaron
00:39:38 – 00:39:40
He was like, twenty minutes. And I said,
Ian
00:39:41 – 00:39:43
I've got a little bit more than that.
Aaron
00:39:43 – 00:39:50
And he's like, oh, don't worry. We're not gonna pull all you off the stage. You can go twenty five. And I'm like, first of all, what is with these lax rules? Rules
Ian
00:39:50 – 00:39:56
are rules. Yeah. Everybody go 25, then you're gonna have it's gonna be an extra two hours at the end of the day. Like
Aaron
00:39:56 – 00:40:07
Unbelievable. Rules rules are not made to be broken. They're made to be followed. So, yeah. So I'll I'll probably push right up to 25 and then still not have enough time to cover Wow.
Ian
00:40:07 – 00:40:11
You're gonna There may be niceties there. You're gonna have to really jump in.
Aaron
00:40:11 – 00:40:15
I know. There's there's always time for jokes, but there's not gonna be time for, like, a lot of stories or anything.
Ian
00:40:15 – 00:40:16
No stories.
Aaron
00:40:17 – 00:40:22
There's a chance I'll do, like, ten to fifteen minutes of live coding and then Mhmm.
Ian
00:40:22 – 00:40:23
Five to ten
Aaron
00:40:23 – 00:40:27
minutes of slides to just be like, here are all the other things we can do.
Ian
00:40:27 – 00:40:28
Right. Because,
Aaron
00:40:29 – 00:40:40
you know, live coding by its nature takes a little bit longer than just, like Right. Next next next. So, yeah, that's that's my current, like, rough outline is I'll do a slide opening. Yeah. Of course.
Ian
00:40:40 – 00:40:43
With twenty minute talk, you can do that at coding.
Aaron
00:40:43 – 00:40:59
Come on. No risk. No reward. So do an opening with a few slides to to hit them with the hit them with the pizzazz right off the bat, hop into the editor, show them that it actually works, hop back out, breeze through some stuff, blow some minds, kiss some babies, shake some hands.
Ian
00:40:59 – 00:41:05
I like it. Yeah. That's the goal. Oh, man. Oh, man.
Ian
00:41:05 – 00:41:06
For you. I'm nervous.
Aaron
00:41:06 – 00:41:15
I'm nervous for me too. This is where the magic happens, though. When you when you're when you're down and out, you think you can't do it, this is where it happens.
Ian
00:41:16 – 00:41:18
You fly in Sunday or Saturday?
Aaron
00:41:18 – 00:41:24
Who knows? Monday morning at all. Monday morning right out to the stage. Yeah. Let's see.
Aaron
00:41:25 – 00:41:29
What's today? No. That's not right. That's not right. Yes.
Aaron
00:41:29 – 00:41:41
I check-in. I fly in. It looks like I get there. Oh, it's hard to say because I don't understand time zones at all, but I get there Sunday morning. Sunday morning Amsterdam time.
Aaron
00:41:41 – 00:41:41
Yeah.
Ian
00:41:41 – 00:41:43
I wish you were going in Saturday.
Aaron
00:41:43 – 00:41:44
Cool. Me
Ian
00:41:44 – 00:41:47
and Yeah. Day. You know? You get that day. I hate the day.
Ian
00:41:48 – 00:41:52
Although, maybe you're not talking till Tuesday. Do you know for sure you're talking Monday?
Aaron
00:41:52 – 00:41:54
Hard to say. There's no schedule yet.
Ian
00:41:54 – 00:41:55
There's no schedule.
Aaron
00:41:55 – 00:41:55
Well, I don't
Ian
00:41:55 – 00:41:57
know. But you know. So you don't know.
Aaron
00:41:57 – 00:41:58
I don't know. So
Ian
00:41:59 – 00:42:01
Alright. So maybe you will have an extra day. Who knows? Maybe.
Aaron
00:42:01 – 00:42:02
We'll find out.
Ian
00:42:02 – 00:42:08
That's worse, though. You don't wanna be the extra day to be the first day of the conference. You'd rather go the first day. No. Good.
Ian
00:42:08 – 00:42:09
Good. I think
Aaron
00:42:09 – 00:42:16
I I think I would rather be early on the first day or maybe late on the second day.
Ian
00:42:16 – 00:42:17
Mhmm.
Aaron
00:42:17 – 00:42:18
Is that wild?
Ian
00:42:18 – 00:42:29
I I would I would never wanna be late on the second day. Voice is gonna be gone. You know, a lot talking to people in between the night, the Monday night, whatever goes on.
Aaron
00:42:29 – 00:42:33
Yeah. I think I would I think I would always rather go on the first day.
Ian
00:42:33 – 00:42:36
I'd always rather go on the first day for sure. Definitely.
Aaron
00:42:36 – 00:42:39
Because then then the after dark party is typically after the first
Ian
00:42:40 – 00:42:41
day. Steam.
Aaron
00:42:41 – 00:42:42
You get to clacks.
Ian
00:42:43 – 00:42:44
Get to hang.
Aaron
00:42:44 – 00:42:47
Get to go to the the loud bar and shout in each other's faces.
Ian
00:42:47 – 00:42:49
Can I have a $2 margarita?
Aaron
00:42:49 – 00:42:51
What up? A $2 mark?
Ian
00:42:51 – 00:42:52
That's Yeah.
Aaron
00:42:52 – 00:42:58
Alright. Can I go? If you're listening, I wanna go on the first day. Also, let me know when I'm going.
Ian
00:42:59 – 00:43:02
Can I go, like, the official full showrunner at this point here?
Aaron
00:43:02 – 00:43:04
That's a good question. I have
Ian
00:43:04 – 00:43:07
no idea. I know. Okay. No clue. Got no clue.
Ian
00:43:08 – 00:43:09
Talent. Just show up.
Aaron
00:43:09 – 00:43:10
Show up. Yep.
Ian
00:43:10 – 00:43:13
Tell you where to go with the day of, you will be there.
Aaron
00:43:13 – 00:43:16
Mic on and push me out the door, and I go out and do the thing. Yeah.
Ian
00:43:17 – 00:43:18
I like it. I like it.
Aaron
00:43:18 – 00:43:28
Kaneko is the one that's communicating with us. I am not clear if he is running, like, organizing it, or if he's just him seeing it or what. I have no idea.
Ian
00:43:29 – 00:43:31
Stuff happening. People will be there.
Aaron
00:43:31 – 00:43:38
People will be there. Yep. My job is to show up. I hope he's going there. I've been I've been in the opposite situation before.
Ian
00:43:38 – 00:43:42
Well, I think it'll be more than five or It'll be more than five.
Aaron
00:43:42 – 00:43:44
Yes. I do I do think that is correct.
Ian
00:43:44 – 00:43:45
I think you're in the clear there.
Aaron
00:43:45 – 00:43:46
Yep. I think so.
Ian
00:43:46 – 00:43:52
You got the you know, they still haven't made the Laracon the multitrack, so they're holding on to the single track. So
Aaron
00:43:53 – 00:43:57
Please hold on to the single track. Please. Please. Please. Keep the single track alive.
Aaron
00:43:57 – 00:43:58
I don't like multitrack.
Ian
00:43:58 – 00:44:06
I think you could do, like, a hybrid y where, like, maybe for, like, a more one of the mornings, there's, like, a few different tracks or something. Maybe That
Aaron
00:44:06 – 00:44:07
would be fine with the
Ian
00:44:07 – 00:44:08
whole thing. You know?
Aaron
00:44:08 – 00:44:11
The I I like the shared experience of the single track conference.
Ian
00:44:11 – 00:44:17
It seems nice. You can have the the conversations with people at night are much cleaner because, you know, everybody sounds so
Aaron
00:44:17 – 00:44:18
context. Yeah.
Ian
00:44:18 – 00:44:20
The other thing about the first day is everybody's there the first day.
Aaron
00:44:20 – 00:44:21
The second
Ian
00:44:21 – 00:44:29
day, not everybody's there sometimes. People are cruising out. There's just always less people the second day. Hate that. So that's the other thing where the first day is kinda nice.
Ian
00:44:29 – 00:44:31
You get the maximum. Mhmm. That
Aaron
00:44:31 – 00:44:35
happened that happened to me at Laracon EU the first time I spoke.
Ian
00:44:35 – 00:44:35
Oh, really?
Aaron
00:44:35 – 00:44:42
I was the last speaker, and, Taylor and Abigail had left by then. I was like, god.
Ian
00:44:42 – 00:44:43
Oh, you freaking dang it.
Aaron
00:44:43 – 00:44:46
This was my big coming out party, and he was gone.
Ian
00:44:46 – 00:44:49
They're like, Eric, can you turn off the lights on your way out the door here, buddy?
Aaron
00:44:50 – 00:44:54
You don't have to sweep up, but it sure would be nice if you did the guy. Yeah.
Ian
00:44:54 – 00:44:58
There is a little fee if we don't sweep up. So if you could just hit it once with the broom, that'd be great.
Aaron
00:44:58 – 00:45:00
Yeah. That's that's too bad.
Ian
00:45:01 – 00:45:13
Yeah. I just saw a thing about, a lot of conferences dying off. And I think, like too. Yeah. It's like the post COVID, you would think maybe they're gonna come back, but they haven't really come back, and they're kinda going the other way.
Ian
00:45:13 – 00:45:17
And I don't know. I think there is something there. You're a conference guy.
Aaron
00:45:17 – 00:45:18
What's your take on that?
Ian
00:45:18 – 00:45:32
I don't know. I think it is weird. Maybe as people go back to the office, there'll be more of a tape. Because the whole thing with conferences is it's like the businesses nobody's going to pay for a conference on their own. Everybody only wants to go to conference if it's a write off.
Ian
00:45:32 – 00:45:39
And Right. And or it's not their money in some fashion. Right. You know, where they have some budget. It's a work vacation.
Ian
00:45:39 – 00:45:52
Work is sending them. So I don't know. It is a tricky case. Hard for me to kinda put myself in the big company mindset at this point, but I do think there is probably a little bit of a tricky case. Like, if you're already working from home, now we're sending this conference.
Ian
00:45:52 – 00:45:57
People are dubious about what you're doing to begin with sometimes, potentially. And so, like All
Aaron
00:45:57 – 00:46:02
you're doing is taking pictures and putting them on Twitter about partying with your friends. Like So
Ian
00:46:02 – 00:46:19
I don't know. Maybe as people, it seems like we're gonna be swinging back to, like, a lot of people working in the offices here. So if that happens, I could see that maybe helping. You know, some people have the theory of, like, budget tightness. I don't know if I buy too much into that because it's just, like, it's not that much money.
Ian
00:46:19 – 00:46:38
It's not like this is not moving the needle that much if you're, like, have some no conference edict at your company. So, like Mhmm. I don't know about that. I feel like it's a more a subtler some more, like, cultural, more people feel like they get a lot information and don't necessarily even wanna go even for the work cation. Right.
Ian
00:46:38 – 00:46:54
It's it's like, whatever. I have access to all these resources, all this video stuff in Dev Land. Like, everybody knows you're not learning a lot at the conference at this point. Like, you know, hopefully, you pick up a nugget or two, but you're not, like, going there. And now I know react after I come home.
Ian
00:46:54 – 00:46:57
You know what I mean? Like, maybe you get No. It is not. It's not wet. But
Aaron
00:46:58 – 00:47:02
It's not the best medium to learn hard technical stuff in-depth. Yeah.
Ian
00:47:02 – 00:47:03
Especially with the dev
Aaron
00:47:03 – 00:47:04
stuff. Has been.
Ian
00:47:04 – 00:47:15
Yeah. Yeah. Because I feel like marketing and stuff like that has a little advantage there because it's like, oh, I can learn about, like, this technique Yes. In thirty minutes, and now I know it. Like, I literally know the technique, and now I can go implement it.
Ian
00:47:15 – 00:47:32
Whereas, like, in the dev stuff, it's not really like that. It's like, if I if it's, like, a new language okay, I'm just literally getting a taste, and now I know there's a hundred hours work beyond that if I wanna actually learn it. Or even if it's in something you know, like, pretty much anything above, like, hey. This is a package that does this. Okay.
Ian
00:47:32 – 00:47:40
Fine. Like, now I know about that. But anything else, I'm still gonna still more work there. Still always just kind of setting you up with some knowledge as opposed
Aaron
00:47:40 – 00:47:40
to giving
Ian
00:47:40 – 00:47:42
you a complete picture of something.
Aaron
00:47:42 – 00:47:51
Which I think that point is the most, the most salient in terms of, like, education is it's exposing you to to something that you wouldn't per perhaps
Ian
00:47:52 – 00:47:53
would sign out on your own. Yeah.
Aaron
00:47:53 – 00:48:01
So I'm thinking back to, like, what's a good one? Like, Jake Bennett's state machines talk at I think it was maybe Laracon Nashville or maybe Laracon Dallas.
Ian
00:48:01 – 00:48:03
I don't know. That. Yeah. Mhmm.
Aaron
00:48:03 – 00:48:07
Like, I've heard about state machines. I've never sought out education on state machines.
Ian
00:48:08 – 00:48:08
Alright.
Aaron
00:48:08 – 00:48:13
But, like, watching his talk made me realize, oh, I should use state machines
Ian
00:48:13 – 00:48:16
more. Useful. This is really valuable. And so
Aaron
00:48:17 – 00:48:27
stuff like that, I think, is super valuable, a great educational reason to go to conference conferences. But I don't even think education is the reason to go to conferences. Right.
Ian
00:48:27 – 00:48:40
That so that brings us to, like, the main reason, which is the networking, meeting people, adjusting with your take as well. But, again, that gets weird. That's where, like, you have these solidities from the business perspective. It's like, what am I paying for? Like, I'm paying for you to pay me people.
Aaron
00:48:40 – 00:48:42
To go get your next
Ian
00:48:42 – 00:48:44
job? Right. What? I'm paying for the Yeah. To get your next job.
Ian
00:48:44 – 00:49:06
I'm paying for you to make these connections. Again, in other avenues, I think there's more of a pure business case. I think as a developer, I think the business case is kinda weak for, like, well, if I know these 10 other people, that's going to bring some type of tangible value back to my current job. You know? I don't know.
Ian
00:49:06 – 00:49:08
Maybe. Maybe.
Aaron
00:49:08 – 00:49:19
I I can't make the business case for it, because I don't have a bunch of employees that wanna go to a conference that I'm paying for. But I can make the personal case for it all day every day.
Ian
00:49:19 – 00:49:22
So that that is the hard part. Right.
Aaron
00:49:22 – 00:50:01
Because I think as an individual I think as an individual, you should go to as many relevant conferences as you can or as you want to. Because, like, yes, being on social networks is great because you, like, get to kinda, you know, make some friends there. But going to a conference and actually meeting the people and hanging out with them Yeah. And, like, getting to know them on, like, a personal level, that is that is 10 times better than just hanging out on Twitter. And you come back, and you're able to, like, message all these people and start these groups and start a podcast and work on projects together.
Aaron
00:50:01 – 00:50:16
Like, you know these people. And so Yep. I think the personal case for going is maybe it's, like, maybe one of that most high leverage things you can do, like, for your career is, like, go meet the other people that are crazy enough to go to one of these conferences.
Ian
00:50:17 – 00:50:35
Yep. Totally agree. Definitely. All all the people I've met at conferences over the year, you just make a whole different type of connection that then did that and even helps you in social media and all these other places if you release a package, whatever. Like, having had those in person connection, those are the people who would then really, like, cheer you on the hardest a lot of times.
Ian
00:50:36 – 00:50:47
So, yeah, definitely, from the personal perspective, it's certainly worth doing. But then I feel like people don't necessarily wanna pony up for that. I don't know. Do they pony up personally? I wonder how many people do that.
Ian
00:50:47 – 00:50:47
You know?
Aaron
00:50:47 – 00:50:48
I don't know. It's expensive.
Ian
00:50:48 – 00:50:52
I'd be I'd be curious to know, like, at Laracon, how many people are paying their own way.
Aaron
00:50:53 – 00:51:10
Yeah. It's interesting you said, like, it helps you on social media because I do find this weird thing where it's like, oh, I met this person in, like, in real life, and I go find their Twitter, and they've got, like, 32 followers. And I'm like, it doesn't matter. I like this person. I met them.
Aaron
00:51:10 – 00:51:23
I like them. I'm gonna follow them. We're friends now. And and it's just so interesting because I'll I'll see a stranger on Twitter, and I'll go and I'll, like, I'll click on their profile. I'll go I'll scroll their feed to be like, what do you tweet about?
Aaron
00:51:23 – 00:51:34
Do I wanna see that? Oh, what it's such a rigorous process of, like, adding someone to my following because I don't wanna follow-up. Yeah. But then, you know, I meet somebody at a conference, and I like them. And I'm like, sure.
Aaron
00:51:34 – 00:51:34
Yeah.
Ian
00:51:34 – 00:51:35
That's it.
Aaron
00:51:35 – 00:51:37
That's great. I love it. Yeah. Yep. Very interesting.
Ian
00:51:38 – 00:51:48
That's it. The other I mean, we probably talked about this before, but the other big thing about conferences, just, a lot of personal note here, you wanna try to be a speaker sometimes. Oh, yeah. You just gotta push yourself and be a speaker
Aaron
00:51:49 – 00:51:49
Yes.
Ian
00:51:49 – 00:52:03
Or in some way involved, like, if you wanna go to conferences or whatever. But, like, anytime you're in some type of elevated position at the conference, it just everything it just it just greases the wheels of everything. And everybody knows you. Everybody comes up to you. Everybody follows you on social media.
Ian
00:52:03 – 00:52:11
All that stuff. You get all the benefits when you are a speaker or somehow involved in the production in some way. Big big advantage. So Yep.
Aaron
00:52:11 – 00:52:15
What's the huge show? Advantage. Yes. Big time.
Ian
00:52:15 – 00:52:24
And and it never goes bad. Like, you know what I mean? Like, a handful of talks everywhere, it's like, it went bad. You know? It's like, even when it goes bad, it's not that bad.
Ian
00:52:24 – 00:52:25
Like, it's fine. And Even when
Aaron
00:52:25 – 00:52:30
it goes bad, everybody's on your side and, like, gosh. I cannot believe that happens. Like Especially
Ian
00:52:30 – 00:52:45
in our ecosystem, I feel like it's not like there's a lot of, like, people who then get a, you know, beat on you for being an idiot or whatever. Like, it's a pretty positive community. So, that's the thing though. There's not that many events. So that's where, like
Aaron
00:52:45 – 00:52:45
No.
Ian
00:52:45 – 00:52:53
That part's sort of tricky. There's more events, then you're more speaking slots, of course, but, obviously, Laravel Inc can only throw some money.
Aaron
00:52:53 – 00:53:01
We we gotta do a mostly technical comp, and it's gotta be, like, micro comp, but back in, like, 2012.
Ian
00:53:01 – 00:53:18
Right. Well, that's right. It's like so this is where the economics of it are very tricky with the with the reality, which is the ideal conference is, like, 90% networking. Yeah. Like, a lot of networking or, like or I think talks that are even maybe a little different format or maybe more some more impromptu kinda talks.
Ian
00:53:18 – 00:53:30
That used to be a big thing back in, like, early two thousands was, like, I figured it was unconferenced type things. Right? You just sign up for a room, and it's like, I'm just gonna talk about this. Like, that's how I saw the jQuery launch. He was like, hey.
Ian
00:53:30 – 00:53:35
I'm gonna be launching this thing. And I just went into that room, and I saw him launch jQuery. Right? And it's like
Aaron
00:53:35 – 00:53:36
Oh, man.
Ian
00:53:36 – 00:53:54
So, like, he it's like lower commitment for the speakers because it's not like your name's plastered and this is expectation. It's like, while you maybe prepared something, nobody necessarily knew you were preparing something, and you just signed up, and it's like whoever's there. So, yeah, so you want that. But then, again, how do you get people to pay for that in the future? Because, like, when you go to your boss, like, hey.
Ian
00:53:54 – 00:53:57
It's this conference. We're like, there there's no learning. Like, it's not
Aaron
00:53:57 – 00:53:59
Like, there's there's no there's no agenda.
Ian
00:54:00 – 00:54:03
It's it's called an unconference. It's just a hangout. Okay. It's a hangout. Hangout.
Ian
00:54:03 – 00:54:16
We go hang out with a bunch of people. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So it's a little tricky there, but, I mean, you can always hedge that a little bit because if you do it, like, things like do it in New York City or do it in San Francisco.
Aaron
00:54:16 – 00:54:16
Oh, yeah.
Ian
00:54:16 – 00:54:18
Like, maybe Dallas.
Aaron
00:54:18 – 00:54:18
Maybe Dallas.
Ian
00:54:18 – 00:54:31
Dallas pull it off. I don't know. But where you have a lot of developers already. So, like, just from the city, you could get the two or 300 people you need to kinda do it Yeah. Even if nobody flew in and some people will fly in.
Ian
00:54:31 – 00:54:38
So I think that type of thing can help. Although, it's also very expensive to do it in those big cities. So Or
Aaron
00:54:38 – 00:54:46
what is what is Tailwind's doing in Tailwind's doing something in Miami? That's that's conference esque, but not. Right. Right? That's like a that's like a Meetup
Ian
00:54:46 – 00:54:53
plus plus only. Yeah. I kinda like that for us, actually. One night only. When you get multiple days, it adds, like, four times the work.
Ian
00:54:53 – 00:55:11
If it's, like, one day, this is what it is. It's, like, six hours. I mean, their thing's only even gonna be this next one coming up is only gonna be, like, a hundred people or something you said too. So it's even, like, kinda just a lighter hangout sort of thing. I kinda like that.
Ian
00:55:11 – 00:55:12
That that could be interesting.
Aaron
00:55:12 – 00:55:14
Could be interesting. That.
Ian
00:55:14 – 00:55:19
No. Kinda like a I kinda like I really like the idea of a one day thing, actually. It's just a lot less. It's a lot less overhead.
Aaron
00:55:20 – 00:55:31
Yeah. That would be great. One day thing with a with a, like, pseudo official lunch the day of. So if people get in early and wanna, like, go lunch and hang out
Ian
00:55:31 – 00:55:32
in the
Aaron
00:55:32 – 00:55:40
space, then there's the event and then a pseudo, you know, official, unofficial lunch the day after. And so Yeah. Like, if you wanna
Ian
00:55:40 – 00:55:40
the day after.
Aaron
00:55:40 – 00:55:41
Stay around the day after and
Ian
00:55:42 – 00:55:42
Yeah.
Aaron
00:55:42 – 00:55:45
Go to, you know, out to lunch or to the zoo or whatever people do.
Ian
00:55:45 – 00:55:48
Yeah. You could do that. But, yeah, I like that. That could be a good sign.
Aaron
00:55:48 – 00:55:53
On that for for developers who are business people as well.
Ian
00:55:53 – 00:55:58
Right. Alright. Give us your comments on that down below as the kids Yeah.
Aaron
00:55:58 – 00:56:00
Most mostly technical comp.
Ian
00:56:00 – 00:56:07
Hey. So if TikTok goes away, do you care? I'm a TikTok man. I don't think we've ever talked about TikTok.
Aaron
00:56:07 – 00:56:09
I've never been a TikTok man.
Ian
00:56:09 – 00:56:13
Okay. No. I'm not a TikTok man. I'm sorry. Don't even care a little bit.
Ian
00:56:13 – 00:56:21
Never let the kids don't have social media accounts. I'm sure they get some social media here and there if they don't have the accounts. So doesn't matter on that front either.
Aaron
00:56:21 – 00:56:23
Whatever you let them have, don't let them have TikTok.
Ian
00:56:24 – 00:56:25
Forget the, like
Aaron
00:56:26 – 00:56:34
I don't I don't I don't follow enough because I don't care. They're, like, is it Chinese? I'm I'm led to believe it's some sort of Chinese spying device.
Ian
00:56:35 – 00:56:38
Yeah. The influence device, I think, is more of the concern.
Aaron
00:56:38 – 00:56:41
Device. Yes. That that is probably more accurate.
Ian
00:56:41 – 00:56:42
Potentially spying, I guess.
Aaron
00:56:42 – 00:56:50
But yeah. That that part is that part is bad. I don't have a problem with it being a Chinese app, but the fact that they're like, hey. Let's control the minds of Americans. Okay.
Aaron
00:56:50 – 00:57:00
That's probably bad. My real my real problem with it is it is like it's a zombification tool. It just turns kids into zombies.
Ian
00:57:00 – 00:57:02
It is. It is. It's crazy. Rough.
Aaron
00:57:03 – 00:57:07
We had a babysitter one time, and we came home. We're like, hey. You know, did TV work?
Ian
00:57:07 – 00:57:09
Did you watch something? What did you do? I was
Aaron
00:57:09 – 00:57:09
like, oh, no. I just
Ian
00:57:09 – 00:57:17
looked at said TV. Yeah. Just looked at TikTok. We were gone for three hours. The videos were, like, thirty seconds.
Ian
00:57:17 – 00:57:18
Swipe, man. What are
Aaron
00:57:18 – 00:57:19
you doing?
Ian
00:57:19 – 00:57:20
Yeah. I know. I know.
Aaron
00:57:20 – 00:57:26
I was like, good lord. Like, I get I get being addicted, which we should talk about sometime because I have some
Ian
00:57:26 – 00:57:26
I
Aaron
00:57:26 – 00:57:29
have some new, anti addiction tools for
Ian
00:57:29 – 00:57:30
Oh, okay. Yeah. We can do that.
Aaron
00:57:30 – 00:57:38
I get I get being addicted, but, like, TikTok is is weapons grade. It is it is another level
Ian
00:57:38 – 00:57:38
of Yeah.
Aaron
00:57:38 – 00:57:42
Addiction and and brain rot in my opinion.
Ian
00:57:43 – 00:57:54
I tend to agree. It's also really funny. Like, this where you know, obviously whatever. I don't wanna get into the deep politics of it. But the idea of, like, when you even see the things about how, like, in China, TikTok is, like, it's, like, all educational stuff.
Ian
00:57:55 – 00:58:09
But yeah. And then, like, in America, obviously, it's just, like, all insane stuff. Right? It's just normal stuff too, so I'm sure I know people who use it and like it, and they're like, I don't think they're, like, necessarily on beheadings all day or whatever, but it's like you know, or crime in New York City. Right?
Ian
00:58:09 – 00:58:17
Or all these things that could if you push the algorithm, it's like, oh, like, if you're in the red state, we're gonna push to you how San Francisco and New York are falling apart.
Aaron
00:58:17 – 00:58:17
Mhmm.
Ian
00:58:17 – 00:58:29
And if you're in a blue state, we're gonna push to you how these hicks are doing whatever. Right? You know, whatever. So, you know, I think that is probably bad and not optimal to allow an adversarial government to do. Crazy.
Aaron
00:58:29 – 00:58:29
Crazy.
Ian
00:58:31 – 00:58:38
So yeah. I don't know. But but it is interesting seeing people like, my kids are like, oh, yeah. They're like, all our friends are totally freaking out. Like, they they can't believe it.
Ian
00:58:38 – 00:58:42
Like, this is the end times that, you know, TikTok's going away. So
Aaron
00:58:43 – 00:58:58
I I'm sure. I mean, when I when I block Twitter on my phone, I still pick it up, and I'm like, oh, shoot. It's blocked. So I get it. Like, I fully am sympathetic to that, but I think it's worth it's worth fighting that urge because it's, you know, it's not a good thing.
Ian
00:58:58 – 00:59:05
It's all crazy. But okay. So you're not a TikTok man, though. So you're not you're not in there. You you didn't call yourself to sleep the other night being, like, a kid's TikTok.
Ian
00:59:05 – 00:59:09
No. Okay. Nope. Nope. Well, what's your I don't know.
Ian
00:59:09 – 00:59:11
Do you wanna give us your tips or no? You wanna save that
Aaron
00:59:11 – 00:59:19
for another day? Day? I got a whole I got a whole thing on getting my brain back. But here's here's what I'll we can end on. It's it's slightly different, but I wanna get your take on it as the godfather.
Ian
00:59:20 – 00:59:20
Got it.
Aaron
00:59:21 – 00:59:32
I have a theory about, so I was on, somebody's podcast the other day talking about PHP and, like, you know, why it's still here, like, like, shape of the community, that sort of thing.
Ian
00:59:32 – 00:59:32
Mhmm. And just
Aaron
00:59:32 – 01:00:00
out of out of the clear blue sky, I came up with this concept of the, like, the evolutionary pressure that shaped the PHP community into what it is today. And I stated that that evolutionary pressure was, PHP has never been cool. Like, it's never been the cool kids that use PHP. Cool kids have always been probably Ruby and then now JavaScript.
Ian
01:00:00 – 01:00:01
Yeah. Mhmm.
Aaron
01:00:02 – 01:00:22
And so that evolutionary pressure has led the PHP community primarily to care about, shipping things and putting things out there versus being, like, super into the way that our ecosystem, like, does a certain, you know, engineering type thing.
Ian
01:00:22 – 01:00:22
Right.
Aaron
01:00:22 – 01:00:43
So my my stipulation and this is what I want your take on. My stipulation is that the PHP community is very much a, hacker's community and a community of, like, predominantly, like, product builders and not, technological naval gazers. What is your response?
Ian
01:00:43 – 01:01:14
I totally agree. I think it's, I think it's people who are not necessary for various reasons, I don't think it's only, like, product shipping, but I think it's people who are not necessarily concerned as a top priority. I won't not not not at all, but as a top priority of, like, let's call it, like, code, sophistication, or, like, even quality, let's say. Not they want their code to be bad. They are not like, boy, what is the optimal pattern
Aaron
01:01:14 – 01:01:14
Mhmm.
Ian
01:01:14 – 01:01:37
For optimal performance of this. When I show it to my friends, they're gonna be very proud of how smart I was, the biggest like, that's not the vibe it's generally had. It's more like, yeah, what this is a tool. So how can I use this tool to do the thing I want to do? And sometimes tools are imperfect and the person using them is imperfect, And we're okay with all that because we're not primarily concerned with the tool in and of itself.
Ian
01:01:37 – 01:01:47
We're concerned with being able to do whatever it is we wanna do, and it being flexible. That's where, like, it you know, PHP hasn't really broken too much over the years because it kinda leans into that. Like,
Aaron
01:01:47 – 01:01:48
it's Yeah.
Ian
01:01:48 – 01:01:55
Spending this, like, it stayed alive by being like, hey. If we break it for everybody, then that's gonna be the point where people will be like, well, maybe I should just use Ruby.
Aaron
01:01:55 – 01:01:55
Mhmm.
Ian
01:01:55 – 01:02:24
This is the time because it's gonna be hard to do this next upgrade, so I should just look for something else instead. And no. It's like we just keep it making it easy for the most part with a few little exceptions. And, yeah, and big deal with things like WordPress that I think have been super important, and that feeds in, like, this, like, basic CMS thing that feeds into, like, people can just pick it up. And they start by using CMS, but they wanna do something, so they pick up a little PHP.
Ian
01:02:24 – 01:02:42
And Mhmm. That's, like, a nice community where you can do that, and people aren't yelling at you that you're an idiot because you're not you know, your code isn't sophisticated enough and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I totally agree. And I think it's a working futures language. It's a working yeah.
Ian
01:02:42 – 01:02:50
It's like your it's like the tool belt of your Mhmm. Carpenter kinda thing. You know? It's, like, practical and functional. It is weird.
Ian
01:02:50 – 01:02:58
I do think it there's always this pressure, and you see it obviously now. Like, it used to be the Ruby people. Now it's the JavaScript people are like, no. No. No.
Ian
01:02:58 – 01:03:18
Like, perfection is important. We gotta have the the lay the TypeScript on top of the JavaScript on top of the thing. It's all gotta be perfect and structured frameworks and this and all the stuff. You know, everybody needs to get paid $500,000 to make this code because you have to know 8,000,000 things to do it. And, like, there's, like, that energy there a lot, I feel like.
Ian
01:03:18 – 01:03:27
Right? And yeah. So, hopefully, PHP still has a bright future. Share. I I would hate for it to go away because I love the PHP, and I love this vibe it has.
Ian
01:03:27 – 01:03:28
And Oh, it's not going
Aaron
01:03:28 – 01:03:30
it's not going anywhere. It's only getting stronger.
Ian
01:03:31 – 01:03:33
That's what I hope. That's what it seems like.
Aaron
01:03:33 – 01:03:34
I've got that.
Ian
01:03:34 – 01:03:35
I think
Aaron
01:03:35 – 01:03:41
that is I think that is Laravel is PHP at this point, just so everybody's clear. WordPress is something WordPress
Ian
01:03:41 – 01:03:42
is something WordPress is still a
Aaron
01:03:42 – 01:03:50
lot of it. Different. It is written in PHP, but it is fundamentally different than, like, PHP, the programming language.
Ian
01:03:50 – 01:04:05
It's unfortunate. You see, it's it's actually I mean, WordPress and Laravel are kinda the same thing because everybody uses WordPress as a framework. Like, WordPress is just a framework for different types of tools. Right? And so, like, I wish WordPress wasn't sort of losing its mind.
Ian
01:04:05 – 01:04:12
And, I mean, how if it's really losing its mind lately? But even before that, it's always kinda kept to itself. I feel like it's its own little world.
Aaron
01:04:12 – 01:04:13
Own ecosystem for sure.
Ian
01:04:13 – 01:04:29
And I feel like it would be nicer if, like, WordPress and Laravel were somehow not the whole, like, put WordPress on Laravel thing, but just, like, the ecosystem wide. I feel like there's something there to, like, getting those worlds together more, in some way because those are the two big tentpole
Aaron
01:04:29 – 01:04:30
Yeah.
Ian
01:04:30 – 01:04:30
Brain worms.
Aaron
01:04:30 – 01:04:31
I don't know.
Ian
01:04:31 – 01:04:33
Essentially. I don't I don't buy it. It's out of the way.
Aaron
01:04:33 – 01:04:34
They're great. I'm happy for them,
Ian
01:04:34 – 01:04:35
but I
Aaron
01:04:35 – 01:04:39
don't think Yeah. I don't think the, near the train shall meet. I don't I don't think they'll
Ian
01:04:39 – 01:04:51
I don't know about that. I think I know I've I think I've heard Taylor talk about this, and I think it is an issue in general is that when you have people how do you get the next developers? Right? So, like, we're all here. That's the problem.
Ian
01:04:51 – 01:05:03
Developers. Yeah. Right. And so, like, to me, like, WordPress is the most natural path into PHP even more than Laravel because that's where you get just a pure tinkerer. Like, I was using this thing.
Ian
01:05:03 – 01:05:10
I ran this website. Now I need to do something. And okay. Let me figure out how this works to go into this template. I see these functions.
Ian
01:05:10 – 01:05:22
I figure out what all that means, and I can tweak it and whatever. You know, Laravel's already a step above that. It's like, okay. I have to, like I want I have a whole idea for something that's already a full, more complete idea. I'm gonna use this framework to build it.
Ian
01:05:22 – 01:05:48
We have to understand a fair amount of stuff kind of already and still way lower requirement than, like, if you wanna do a JavaScript based, version. But I do feel like for that getting people from the grassroots, that that's kind of an interesting path. Whereas, like, the JavaScript angle. I think that's where, like, schools are gonna go to. It's like, oh, if you wanna be a professional developer, you're gonna do all this JavaScript y stuff.
Ian
01:05:48 – 01:05:57
And that's gonna be those kind of things. But I don't know. PHP's ever gonna work. PHP's never been the language of The college. SaaS.
Ian
01:05:57 – 01:06:09
Right? And even the boot camps and things like that. So I think you need a way in and, like, to me, WordPress is that way in. So there's something there. Maybe I don't know.
Ian
01:06:09 – 01:06:24
Laravel not having its own WordPress fully. Like, you have the paid CMSs. Mhmm. And then there are obviously open source CMSs on Laravel, but none of them are obviously, you know, the tiniest fraction of WordPress. So I don't know.
Ian
01:06:24 – 01:06:25
Something there.
Aaron
01:06:26 – 01:06:31
Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if that I don't know if I buy that that's the route people take. I think if
Ian
01:06:32 – 01:06:32
Mhmm.
Aaron
01:06:33 – 01:06:50
I I feel like building something on a CMS and building an app, I feel like are different paths in people's minds. So, like, if you're gonna build something on a CMS, you might pick WordPress. Although this these days, you'll probably pick who knows what Webflow, Squarespace, whatever any
Ian
01:06:50 – 01:06:52
of these other ones are.
Aaron
01:06:52 – 01:07:17
And if you're gonna, like, if you're like, I wanna build a SaaS or some sort of application, you're gonna pick next on Supabase or some one of these other things. I think the challenge is not, like, Laravel getting over to get those, you know, content system starters. It's getting those Next JS starters. And I think, you know, they just hired Tony I think his name is Lee, Tony Le
Ian
01:07:17 – 01:07:17
Right.
Aaron
01:07:18 – 01:07:22
To build starter kits. And I think that, like, that's what people
Ian
01:07:22 – 01:07:23
want. Right.
Aaron
01:07:23 – 01:07:43
And I I continually am, like, slapped in the face by this because I continually think people wanna learn things deeply. And then I look at what's selling and, you know, in the broad ecosystem, and it's like, this starter kit sold 4,500 copies at $300 each. And I'm like, oh, people don't wanna learn things. They just wanna have things done for them. That's
Ian
01:07:43 – 01:07:45
interesting. They like it. They like it.
Aaron
01:07:45 – 01:07:48
So I think the starter kits are gonna go a long way. And and
Ian
01:07:48 – 01:08:01
Tell me, though. I I I think I do have a different view of that, honestly. Yeah. Because to me, the starter kit isn't for people who don't know how to program and are just learning or have an idea. Like, they they can be for that, but they don't even know that exists.
Ian
01:08:01 – 01:08:20
Like, the starter kit like, I would buy a starter kit because it's like, hey. I know all this bullshit template stuff. I like, all the, like, boilerplate crap that is super annoying, and I just wanna get to the part where I get right to my business logic. And I don't wanna build the login, and I don't wanna build the page log in. Manage staff and all that an invite system and all the stuff.
Ian
01:08:20 – 01:08:41
Right? I just don't wanna do any of that. I wanna have I wanna get all the way as deep as I can into the business logic. Because most of the time, I don't even finish these projects. And the closer I get to actually doing the part that's the part that the thing is gonna do that's custom, the closer I am to actually shipping something versus, like, spending two weeks on all the stuff you need to even do to get to the part where you do the business logic.
Ian
01:08:41 – 01:08:54
So I kinda feel like the people who are new to programming or newish to programming, that that's not even like a they're still a step behind that. Like, they thought to get their feet wet or a taste for it someplace else first.
Aaron
01:08:54 – 01:08:59
Know. I watch these people that, like, follow Mark Liu, the the ship fast guy. I don't know
Ian
01:08:59 – 01:09:00
if Wow. You've heard of this.
Aaron
01:09:00 – 01:09:19
I I don't do not follow him, but I know who he is. Okay. And I feel like he is basically he's like a kinda like a Peter Levels that can code a little bit better. Mhmm. And his whole vibe is, like, he's got the whole, like, ship anything you want and do a hundred projects in a week and see what works.
Aaron
01:09:19 – 01:09:42
Right. And he sells a starter kit, and that's the one I'm referencing that sold, like, 4,500 copies or something. And I think from what I can tell from the outside, his audience is primarily, like, people that are very new to programming or haven't been programming at all. And they buy a starter kit and then kinda, like, use AI and whatever else, like, hack around inside of this, like, starter kit framework.
Ian
01:09:42 – 01:09:57
That's even something kinda different, don't you think? Because it's like, that's not if he just released a starter kit and didn't build the audience of people who aren't programmers but wanna be, it would do nothing. Right? So, like, Laravel could ship a bunch of starter kits, but I think most of the people using these Laravel starter kits are gonna be people who already know Laravel.
Aaron
01:09:57 – 01:09:58
Already use Laravel.
Ian
01:09:58 – 01:10:05
Yeah. Maybe 95% people know Laravel. They're like, great. Like, I'd like Jetstream. And now this is, like, a step beyond Jetstream where I can Right.
Ian
01:10:06 – 01:10:23
Have, like, big chunk of my app ready to go of all the boilerplate crap. And now I can just get to the business logic, and I don't have to do all that stuff anymore. And or, or, you know, I'm building a back office system, or I don't care if it looks like every other Laravel app. Who cares? Like, it's fine because I just needed to do what I needed to do, and I can skip all those steps.
Ian
01:10:24 – 01:10:36
And I'm sure you get some new people in there, but I think they need a guide like that who's like, hey. You wanna learn to program? This is the best place to learn to program. Right? And, yes, we have the starter kit and AI tools and Lara Cat.
Ian
01:10:36 – 01:10:44
We have all this stuff. Right? Like, we have all the courses and whatever to help you once you decide you wanna do it, but we have to get the people
Aaron
01:10:45 – 01:10:46
I'll do that.
Ian
01:10:46 – 01:10:49
I'll do that. Know they wanna do that. Yeah. They get the people for us. Oh, yeah.
Ian
01:10:49 – 01:10:52
Doing that. I'm working on it, Ian. I'm working on it.
Aaron
01:10:52 – 01:10:52
What do
Ian
01:10:52 – 01:10:55
you think I'm doing over here? Your audience, though. That's not in
Aaron
01:10:55 – 01:10:56
your stick. It's not. No.
Ian
01:10:56 – 01:11:03
That would be a change of sticks. Yeah. I don't know. Can you change your stick like that under the Aaron Francis banner? I think it's a little tricky to run two sticks.
Aaron
01:11:03 – 01:11:23
It's tricky to run two sticks. The sticks are malleable, though. And as long as long as we're not, you know, as long as we're a half step off of the current schtick, it's fine. Yeah. I don't wanna be I don't wanna be the, like, ship fast, ship crap, throw stuff against the wall guy.
Aaron
01:11:23 – 01:11:42
That's never gonna work because I don't actually believe any of that. Right. I do believe ship fast, but I think you should take pride in what you do because this is your one wildlife. But, you know, I don't know. I think I could get I could get to a place where I'm, like, bringing net new developers into Clearwell.
Aaron
01:11:42 – 01:11:54
I have historically occupied the lane of teaching intermediates more advanced things, which I enjoy, but, you know, the market for that was small in charging.
Ian
01:11:54 – 01:12:07
Right. There's a bigger market elsewhere. I actually think the Peter leveled coding style is actually the superior for getting new people in. Because, like, PHP, that's, like, the real beauty of PHP. Right?
Ian
01:12:07 – 01:12:14
It's like, hey. Take this one file. Yeah. Throw it on a server. Learn how to FTP it to a server, right, or do some upload thing.
Ian
01:12:14 – 01:12:20
And, oh, you can output something dynamically. Okay. Then you can learn how to do the next thing. And the next thing, it's all in this one file. Right?
Ian
01:12:20 – 01:12:47
And, like, that's, like, where you can think somebody in who wasn't a computer science major or whatever and all stuff. Because, like, once you get down into class, you know, you get that starts to get fairly complicated pretty quickly. And especially once now GitHub, oh, we're gonna use React, and we're gonna have an API, and then we're gonna talk to API, whatever. Like and even things like Livewire or whatever. Like, it all it requires the mental model of what's going on, which is pretty hard to grasp early on, I think, for a lot of people.
Ian
01:12:47 – 01:12:58
Like, if you don't really understand HTML and the server and how the network isn't Yep. Interconnected between them and stuff like there's a lot there that you have to learn before you're gonna really even be able to
Aaron
01:12:58 – 01:13:00
do Yes. You're 50 layers of abstraction.
Ian
01:13:00 – 01:13:00
Mhmm.
Aaron
01:13:01 – 01:13:03
So it's gonna be hard to bring somebody up to speed.
Ian
01:13:03 – 01:13:10
The more you're like, hey. This is just a thing on a server. You just edit the thing on the server. It's produced on the server. Yep.
Ian
01:13:10 – 01:13:28
That's kinda and you point your browser at it. You know, like, that for the very early people. Obviously, pretty quickly you move past that and then whatever you layer up from there. But, like, yeah, that real baseline of, like, how do I get people in? Like, even Laravel, like, it's gonna be very hard for somebody who's never programmed to start with Laravel.
Ian
01:13:28 – 01:13:39
Yeah. You know, because there's just a lot you kinda have to know. And so I do think there's something there. There's a spot there in our world for that for sure. Yep.
Ian
01:13:39 – 01:13:41
So maybe it'll be the Aaron Francis will be there.
Aaron
01:13:41 – 01:13:47
Maybe so. Maybe project x or, this thing I'm announcing at Lyric Honey U. Maybe that'll be a step in that direction.
Ian
01:13:47 – 01:13:49
Maybe it will be. Who knows? We don't know.
Aaron
01:13:49 – 01:13:56
We don't know. We call that foreshadowing, folks. It's a literary device. Alright. Else.
Ian
01:13:56 – 01:13:58
No. I think you're good.
Aaron
01:13:58 – 01:14:01
That was a as far as mostly goes, that was mostly technical.
Ian
01:14:02 – 01:14:03
It's mostly technical.
Aaron
01:14:03 – 01:14:03
Yeah.
Ian
01:14:03 – 01:14:08
Well, people can't complain. They got they got several weeks now. This should hold them over.
Aaron
01:14:08 – 01:14:09
Yeah. They
Ian
01:14:09 – 01:14:10
got a little technical. They got
Aaron
01:14:10 – 01:14:13
a little how to make friends up front, but then we went mostly technical.
Ian
01:14:13 – 01:14:17
Yeah. Exactly. Alright. Thanks, everybody. I'm not reading the stuff.
Ian
01:14:17 – 01:14:24
We're done reading the stuff. Go to mostlytechnical.com. That's it. All the stuff's linked from there. Everything you possibly want, that's where it is.
Aaron
01:14:24 – 01:14:26
If you can't find us, that's on you.
Ian
01:14:28 – 01:14:33
We don't want your business then. Alright? Yeah. We're a higher level dev right now. Exactly.
Ian
01:14:33 – 01:14:36
Alright. See you later. Alright. Bye. Thanks, everybody.
Ian
01:14:36 – 01:14:37
Bye.
Me

Thanks for reading! My name is Aaron and I write, make videos , and generally try really hard .

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