Launching Flux (Live) with Caleb Porzio

Ian

Welcome to our live show. It says everything you need to know right there. It's live, baby. We're live. Nobody cares what we're here to talk about.

They care about us, that we are here. We are live.

Aaron

Is my quality. Is it so Oh,

Ian

it's very bad.

Caleb

Pretty bad. It depends.

Ian

It's not up to the Aaron Francis studio of light and sound, quality level.

Caleb

Okay.

Aaron

But I think

Ian

this is good because you need to build a mobile studio. This is you gotta be on there at any time. Like, you can't be constrained by the power grid.

Aaron

I I you would even I brought like a, no, I'm even 400. I brought

Caleb

a microphone and a

Aaron

stand and I brought

my freaking

I brought my computer. Not that none of it works. Absolutely not.

Ian

You gotta have you gotta have a whole thing in the trunk ready to go. That's just mobile command center.

Aaron

I was like, I'll just bring all my cables and see what happens.

Ian

Oh, good. Boy.

Caleb

So, Aaron, you look great. I really do. And, I I just gotta say, I mean, this whole thing is hilarious, and I'm dying laughing over here. As soon as there there were multiple moments of me dying laughing off stream or on stream. I'm not sure.

But one of them, my favorite one, is Ian going I go, I don't know how to stream on Twitter, Ian. He goes, give me your password. It's like this is, like, free one password error password. This is like, this is a woman where it's like, it would be so much funnier if it was like, I don't know, like, Hello Kitty one. Something.

Not

Ian

far off of that though.

Caleb

Right. It's not that far. I wanna

Aaron

hear I wanna hear later what the password is. Oh. Oh

Ian

my god. I think it's in the public chat. I think Yeah.

Aaron

You can

Ian

see it if you look back. Yeah.

Caleb

What's your password? Okay. Don't judge me. I made this when I was 12. That is the best.

I that's so funny. Like, nobody knows that password, of course, except for all the hackers and m d five checkers or whatever. But, but you know. I

Aaron

know. I gotta love. I can't Right now I can't phone because I'm afraid Yeah. Don't touch the phone.

Caleb

I'm gonna

Aaron

love it in my computer.

Ian

I mean, yeah. It's not I could I could beat Caleb right now. I could tweet as Caleb right now.

Caleb

Hopefully, everything else is one password, but you know. You know. Yeah. There's plenty that's not.

Ian

You got a few that are I can't believe

Caleb

Twitter is allowing me to just keep that password. Aaron likes the password.

Aaron

It's not a It's

Ian

not a very secure password.

Caleb

No. Don't say it's not a secure password. They have, like For sure. They have an hour to

Aaron

freaking hack

Ian

k seven, upper case z, exclamation point.

Caleb

So we're gonna launch Flux in a few minutes here. Yes. What can you say about launching Flux? What can you say? What do you say about a launch?

I wish that we could do, like we should be casting lots on all sorts of outcomes, you know? Like, financially also, I mean, I wish we could do the just straight, like, financial and just be, like, you know, what's the sales number? Make it like a like a some show that does that. But I have one, will everything be broken? Like, will it work?

It's actually a great question. You know?

Ian

You never know to question. You haven't gotten to use it in violence yet, really. I mean, I know you've tested it a lot and everything.

Caleb

And I I'm even I'm, like, least worried about that. Like, I have this whole freaking custom licensing crazy system with, like, teams and seats and upgrading and crazy stuff. There's so many, like, wheels in motion.

Aaron

Too much

Ian

stuff. Too much stuff.

Caleb

Way too much stuff. Like, upon reflection, don't do teams at launch. Don't do teams. Don't definitely don't do teams. Don't connect to APIs, like for everything, like email stuff and all the stuff.

APIs are killing me. Teams are killing me and just hand rolling everything is killing me. Don't hand roll this stuff.

Ian

Don't hand roll anything. Every time I've ever hand rolled anything, I regret it. I'm going for the next version of help spot website. I'm going so far off that. I'm just using a service.

I'm just using a website builder service. I'm done with building things

Caleb

freaking wix. Yes.

Ian

Like probably squarespace or something like that. And I'm just done what building it all this time we spend it has nothing It makes you no money. No money

Caleb

everything Everything every single level authorization

Aaron

right unless you do it yourself.

Ian

That's true This is what a lie. I've been telling myself for twenty years. I'm trying to break free. You guys still got, like, ten, fifteen years to go to get us where I am.

Caleb

To where I'm going to know. Yeah. Yeah. Until you're on LinkedIn.

Ian

Full grandfather website mode. Just like, we set you up on webs. You're all set. What is the

Caleb

crappiest website builder right now? Because I don't know if it's still Wix.

Ian

No. You know, I just wanna make sure mine's actually pretty legit, you

Caleb

know, and people Right. They, like, are good now. Right?

Ian

Yeah. I think the GoDaddy probably has their own, you know, like, the hosting providers all have their own, like, out of a box weirdo website builder thing. I think that's still kind of a thing. You get free with your $3 hosting plan on whatever.

Caleb

Right. Right.

Ian

Forget about that though. Alright. We launched a lot, man. That's why you're here.

Aaron

That's why we're here.

Ian

Last night. You were like, let's how can I come on MT and do it live? And we're like, yes. We will make it happen. Let's do it.

Caleb

This yeah. I and I appreciate you guys for having me. This is great. It it occurred to me, like, I like not having an official launch time because then you can launch it the day before, and then, like, the secret people who find it, then they, like, break everything, and then you fix everything, and you have all night, and it's so much safer. But, Josh Hanley was getting in my head.

He's like he's like, dude, a launch time. And, yeah. So gotta do the launch time. Then I was like, oh, well, if we're doing the launch time, we gotta stream the thing. And it's like, oh, for streaming, let me know the first thing about that.

Who am I calling? France man. You know? Yeah.

Ian

Here we go. Yeah.

Caleb

He's standing there. I got

Aaron

the whole thing. I got the whole thing to do.

Caleb

Who am I calling tonight?

Aaron

Oh my

Ian

god. This is too much.

Caleb

Better get close to life's dream to hear here in Francis. Francis.

Ian

Alright. So you got four minutes to launch here, man.

Caleb

What's that, Ian?

Ian

You got four minutes to launch. Yeah.

Caleb

We got four minutes

Ian

to launch. Doing 10:30? Are you gonna push the button at 10:30, or what's your plan?

Aaron

Yeah. I'm gonna push the button Yeah.

Tell it.

Caleb

Like, a couple minutes before. Okay. So what do we gotta do? Let's look at the checklist here. We gotta get the site up.

That's the first thing, you know, which I think is PHP artisan up, I think. And? And then it's just, like, looking at Flare and seeing if everything looking at Flare and refreshing the database to see if, like, queue jobs are all working and going through.

Ian

Right. This stuff happening.

Caleb

Yeah. That's a big question mark. It's all a big question mark. And looking at Stripe. I mean, like, if there's money in in the Stripe thing, then we're good because then I can reconcile all the licensing stuff.

But if, like Mhmm. So we gotta you know, as long as we could take people's money, it's fine. Key thing. So first thing is get

Aaron

in shift details as long as we can take their money.

Caleb

That's right. Okay. So the ConvertKit is already scheduled. So three minutes ago or two minutes ago, an email went out to all the preorder folks with, like, information on how to upgrade, telling them, like,

Aaron

give it

Caleb

five minutes, then you can go on. And then at 10:30, so in three, two and a half minutes is the official launch email. And then I got the launch tweet. I can't schedule tweets. Maybe be is it

Ian

can you

Caleb

not schedule a video?

Ian

Tweets? No. You can use type fully there or whatever that's called, which I've been using lately, but and and schedule them. But, yeah, I don't know about in Twitter if you can directly schedule a tweet. So I may have to do that one live.

Caleb

There's like a calendar icon that's grayed out, like, on the compose tweet thing, and I was like, this looks like something that should work. But, anyway, so it's in a tab.

Aaron

Twitter password if you want me to tweet anything.

Caleb

You can just tell me.

Ian

I'll I'll

Caleb

put you in. Parents might I'm just gonna text you what I need tweeted. Okay. So then we tweet. Oh, and then, last night, I remembered that I should put stuff on the Livewire docs.

So I have, like, a docs banner and, like, a little sidebar item that says UI components. So we gotta deploy that. And deployment around these parts is SSH and git pull. So nothing can go wrong, and it's gonna be fast, so fast. There's not gonna be a way to

Ian

You wanna share screen for any of this, or are you not set

Caleb

up for that? I don't know. I didn't know. Maybe. I don't know.

Ian

You wanna share your password with everybody else, maybe. I don't know.

Caleb

I don't know what's what is visible on my screen. Like, Daniel at, didn't Daniel do something at Laracon? I I just remember looking at Daniel's Laracon talk being in the audience and being, like, just scanning for for, like, keys and, like, what do I what am I gonna tell him to immediately edit out of this talk? Like, okay. So you guys

Aaron

participant's email address, which I told him was a violation of the GDPR, but he doesn't seem to care.

Ian

That is.

Caleb

Right. And, yeah, the email addresses and, like, client projects in the the folders. Sorry for blowing you up, Daniel. Alright. I'm gonna hit I'm doing artisan PHP artisan up.

Okay. Alright. So happening. Somebody test it out.

Ian

Where should I look?

Caleb

Can you guys go to fluxui.dev? Is this thing up?

Ian

Let's do it.

Caleb

So that's that's the up.

Ian

Okay. Let's deploy I got your talk.

Caleb

The live wire.

Aaron

Got it.

Ian

Okay. Get started.

Caleb

So you can see the site.

Aaron

Got it.

Caleb

Yeah. I

Ian

can see the site in general. Yes.

Aaron

Then we're good.

Ian

Oh, we're losing Aaron. Aaron, your robot. Pricing is working. It looks like Okay. Some stuff, it seems a little something seems weird, but I'm not sure if it's you or me.

It might be me streaming. Like seems weird. Oh, you know what? I think maybe,

Caleb

I'm not

Ian

possible to drop down that team, but, it's working now. I don't know. I think my browser is being a little weird from streaming and, in this. Yeah. I think we're okay.

Caleb

Who knows? And this is just like a DigitalOcean droplet, you know, just Oh. Got a droplet going. We got we got a little MySQL database on there. We got database queue driver going.

Ian

Alright. I don't know if Aaron could see it. It seems a little slow for me.

Aaron

And I can't see a sprinting thing.

Caleb

We can't I can't do anything. Literally?

Aaron

I said I said hello, and then Riverside said reconnecting because I'm freaking on my cell Wi Fi, so I'm kinda Oh my gosh.

Caleb

Okay. It is confirmed. The site is very slow.

Ian

Okay.

Caleb

Says Jason Beggs.

Aaron

Alright. Now freaking Jason. Jason should just fix it. Why is he complaining? He should just fix it.

Caleb

Jason, fix it. Yeah. Jason, fix it. About that? I don't think we could do anything about that.

Ian

What size what size droplet do we have? Tell tell me you didn't do some little one gigabyte droplet. No. Maybe two gigabytes. I don't know.

Oh, you're killing me.

Aaron

You gotta believe in yourself, man.

Ian

You gotta do the dedicated CPU, and you gotta do, like, an eight just as for launch day. Dude. Get into there right now and up the size of that thing.

Caleb

Is that how that works? Can I just

Aaron

do that? Yeah. I could try and do it. The same password.

Ian

There are two jobs. All the same password.

Caleb

There are two.

Ian

I use one password. Sure. Meanwhile, we can log in to the whole Internet with Kayla's password.

Caleb

Kayla literally needs to

Aaron

use one password. Right.

Caleb

Yeah. Or or whatever.

Ian

She keeps that one in one password. Right.

Caleb

Would you guys mind sizing up by droplet? Can can't fix it because Caleb comes up with dumb deployment strategies like SSH and Git pull, says Jason Banks. Yeah.

Ian

Also, it sounds like street order people can't log in Oh. Or or something along those lines. I don't know if that's confirmed. I got Dave producer Dave is also helping us out behind the scenes. That's a report from producer Dave that the people on the Internet are saying.

Caleb

Okay. We appreciate it, producer Dave. Alright. Time to check Stripe.

Ian

Yeah. Let's do one thing at a time.

Caleb

Yeah. Yeah. Let's just see the money. Thing that matters.

Ian

No. I don't think you should go to Stripe. I think you should go to DigitalOcean and get a bigger droplet.

Aaron

That would be

Caleb

So if I do that, I mean, is that not stupid? Am I gonna, like, ruin everything?

Aaron

No. I mean You're gonna have to rebuild it with ports. That's gonna take well, no. I guess you could just type that.

Ian

The droplet size? Yeah.

Caleb

I'm gonna go to DigitalOcean. We'll start with droplets. Digital Ocean.

Aaron

Yeah. I

Ian

mean, it's gonna go down for, you know, a minute while it reboots or We're gonna

Aaron

do it live.

Ian

But, like

Aaron

No. We'll do it live.

Ian

It's basically down anyway. So, like, we gotta get to the

Caleb

part where we're not back. Oh, it's for real crazy slow. That's what Jason Beck says. Alright let me, it's

Ian

like non functional right now so it's it's down how

Caleb

do I get into DigitalOcean?

Aaron

Hey, we're having fun,

Caleb

aren't we? We're having fun. Alright. DigitalOcean verification code. I'm gonna read it out.

Okay? Yeah. Just 123. 2 3. Oh, Caleb's side.

Okay. Alright. So I'm gonna go to do okay. Fluxed. K.

Yep. Okay. CPU? Yes. % right now.

Ian

Yeah. A good a good note. This is

Caleb

a pretty simple, like, Laravel app. I didn't think that But

Ian

Tricchio, said this, and I was gonna say this too. Don't change this size. Right. So you can go back down. Yes.

Caleb

For sure. Okay. So I'm gonna say, what is ups is upsized droplet thing to do?

Ian

Yeah. Upsize. Let's upsize it. We wanna supersize.

Caleb

Give it a big

Ian

old honky socket.

Caleb

CPU and RAM only. Okay? I'm gonna scroll down. We're at, right now, two CPUs, four gigabytes to memory.

Ian

But it could be those shared CPUs because they have to be plans. But, yeah, I would go to big go wheelie here.

Caleb

Just bump it up. So what? Yeah. Right? What do you mean, though?

So I don't even know.

Aaron

You've got some money.

Caleb

You've got some money. I would go big. What

Ian

do I put us on?

Caleb

What's big? I don't know. Alright. Like, here are the options. So 24?

It's graying out, like, a bunch of stuff. But so for $65 a month, I can get four CPUs with eight gigs.

Ian

K. That's not enough. There's

Caleb

also a bunch bunch bunch of, like, cheaper four CPUs, but they're regular Intel. It's like, what do you want? The regular Intel, the premium AMD, the premium Intel?

Ian

Just slide that thing to the right till it breaks off, man. That's what you gotta do.

Caleb

To downsize that, though. Right?

Ian

You're just You can always rebuild the site later. Yeah. This is a one day. It doesn't matter. You just wanna make sure everybody goes there today.

Gives you

Caleb

a good experience. We're getting we're getting eight CPUs. At least. Eight Three minutes.

Aaron

At least.

Caleb

At least. I don't know if we need

Ian

to mess with the NGINX stuff, but hopefully not. Hopefully, it'll just be

Caleb

best for you.

Aaron

You probably wanna put the site and make

it slow so the queues

the queues don't Alright.

Caleb

Let me just make sure that Flux UI dot dev is still the slowest thing in the world. And, yeah, it is. The whole thing's well,

Aaron

yeah.

Ian

I don't

Caleb

know. What's the cost here?

Aaron

Let me

Caleb

just reset a refresh Stripe again.

Ian

It's taking about five seconds per load. It is faster than it was, but that's because people are leaving, which is not good. So I was like

Caleb

Okay. You gotta do something about it or you're gonna slow down sales big time. Okay. Takes, like, five seconds for each click. Alright.

Let's,

Aaron

I'm gonna re baby.

Caleb

I'm gonna size it up. Okay. Yeah. So I click on

Ian

the new can't go wrong with sizing it up, though.

Caleb

And then how do you hit resize again? You need to power it down first. Alright. PHP artisan down. Who knows what that now differ humans as it says nobody knows

Ian

what that does all

Caleb

right php artisan down it's in maintenance mode so now I'm going to turn off the droplet let's see how long a quick little resize takes can't take long

Ian

it should be very fast

Caleb

okay I should probably tweet about this as well I would think

Ian

it's all very good in terms of your prospects for selling some luxuries well resizing

Caleb

the drop rate hump bang on

Aaron

ace it's

Ian

gonna be amazing as a podcast people are just listening to

Caleb

Right. This is the best. You you guys gotta I totally tell. Keep refreshing.

Ian

A flow. Refreshing again. It's great.

Caleb

I turned it off, and now it's allowing me to resize. I'm gonna do a hundred and $20 a month, and we're going premium Intel. Resize. Premium.

Ian

$4 for today.

Caleb

Alright. I hit resize. What could go wrong? The database will still be fine probably, hopefully. Right?

Yeah. Yes. The definition is

Ian

putting in the database? I mean, I'm curious what you're even putting in the database. What's going on in the database?

Caleb

What? The database.

Ian

Just the users, I guess, just like

Aaron

yeah. Well Roads. And Roads.

Ian

Roads. Work. I gotta watch some of Aaron's videos so I know what the hell is going on.

Caleb

Who do you even put in the database? Forever. I'm not interested in the database.

Aaron

Oh. That's

Ian

like Karen has his tea, which I manned up enough and listened to your tea episode. I ordered

Caleb

Drop a little bit of tea.

Ian

See. Look at that.

Caleb

I turned it on. What could go wrong?

Aaron

Hang on. Nothing. Nothing's

Caleb

going on. Be blazing fast. Watch. It's some other stupid thing that

Ian

No. It's

Caleb

SSH This is

Aaron

this is long. It's not sports line. I don't really care what's

Ian

slowing down. More power.

Caleb

Okay. Can't connect. System is booting up. It's a good sign. Good.

It's a good sign. Okay.

Ian

Oh, good. Okay. Yeah.

Caleb

Yeah. You know Watch the watch. Are cheap at this rate comparatively. Like, why do I mess around with these tiny servers?

Ian

I don't know. Never mess around with

Caleb

tiny servers? I know. Never

Ian

mess around with tiny servers.

Caleb

Isn't that the thing? Like, you just pay $20 a month, and you make a zillion dollars on $20 a month. That's, like, the the way.

Ian

Right? Yeah. You got the over provision always.

Caleb

This is the this is truly multitasking. What? No. Okay. You ready for this?

Yeah. CDFlux UI PHP artisan I

Ian

mean, it's already up.

Caleb

Oh, it's up. There you go.

Ian

I mean, not you need to take it out maintenance mode, but it's, like, you know Okay. Lot.

Caleb

If I access it

Ian

Ah, yeah. Look it. I can click around. And it's screaming fast. Moving.

Caleb

Maybe it's just because I have, like, some ridiculous, like, memory leaks and oh, you know what I did? This might have been dumb. I put the queue worker to five processes. Is that stupid? I don't know anything about servers.

I was just, like, five processes

Ian

for sure. In the queue. I mean, what do you got what are you putting in your queues?

Caleb

I don't know. That's what I wanna know.

Ian

No. I'm doing the

Caleb

okay. So right. Let's get into the details here. Uh-huh. The queue, when you purchase, you get an order, and then I queue a job to create a license for you on any stack, which is Filo's, like, software licensing.

He handles all the composer authentication stuff. So create a job to create a license over the API and store that in the database. That's cute.

Ian

Okay. Got it.

Aaron

Got it.

Caleb

So too

Ian

I mean, hopefully, it's busy, but, I mean, there should only be so much stuff in there. I mean Yeah.

Aaron

That should be fine. I probably don't five.

Caleb

Okay. Five is fine. It's five plus one because I just added a

Aaron

the one. But the folks are

Caleb

saying it's so fast now. Okay.

Aaron

Let's see.

Caleb

That's what Dave producer Dave says. Everybody says that now. Okay. That's why we do it live. Sick.

I just need to upgrade

Ian

all my servers to

Caleb

a million dollars. We gotta go we gotta cloud exit. We should cloud exit on this stream right now.

Aaron

That's a good thing

Caleb

to do. Right? In house.

Ian

We're gonna get a rack server. We're gonna send Aaron in his car to go pick up a rack server. There's a big data center there in Dallas that he can

Caleb

Yep.

Ian

Rack it up in

Caleb

And put do it like

Ian

live wires there with that.

Aaron

Tower, but it will

Caleb

have power from point two. Okay. So let's see. I can see I I don't wanna tell you the the amount of money coming in live, but how do I, like we need Wait. We need something.

Here. Okay. I'm gonna I'm going to private message you guys the amount, and then you can just react. Okay?

Ian

Cool. So oh, yeah. This is gonna happen. Yeah. People are very happy.

Aaron

Look at my phone. I don't wanna mess up.

Ian

I don't wanna mess up. Don't don't

Caleb

touch anything. Okay. Ready? People are very

Ian

happy. Okay. What do you think? That is very nice.

Aaron

Okay. Pretty good. Look at

Ian

where are we at? Good.

Aaron

I think we're very happy. We're happy.

Ian

I mean, the site wasn't functional. So come on.

Caleb

Imagine it's

Ian

a functional website. I think, pretty good. It's so funny because, like, between the way you you know, the launch hiccups I didn't tweet.

Caleb

Sorry. I gotta hit tweet.

Ian

Tweet. And then you took down the preorder for two weeks, which is totally insane. And then this website didn't work. So you're doing pretty well. Like, I think it's all going better.

If you just said all those things and then you said how much money you made to somebody, they would be like, that doesn't sound right. Shut up. Yeah. Right? Everything's totally wrong, but you're still doing alright.

Caleb

Okay. So now everybody, you know, listening to this, you can go retweet that thing if you want. If you wanna be a

Aaron

a real pro,

Caleb

you can, hit that retweet. I should pin this tweet. Alright. We're gonna pin this tweet. Yeah.

I'm gonna pin this. Yep. Pin to profile. Adam is the puppet master behind any of this. He's like I'm just, like, literally minutes before this call.

Like, Adam, what are we writing this tweet? Adam, should I put this image in here, or should I put this thing? What link should I put in here, Adam?

Ian

He's your guru.

Aaron

Should I use, Adam?

Ian

No. That would have been a good one to ask him. Right.

Caleb

Oh, like you said, Aaron, it makes for good content. This is anti marketing. You just fluff everything up all the time, and everybody can't help but stare at the dumpster fire.

Ian

Alright. So hold on now. Somebody just said I had a good question, and I feel like you should answer this before we go any farther, is they wanna know what we're launching. So there's gonna be people in here who don't know what we're launching. Oh, that's so funny.

Tell them what we're launching.

Aaron

Where was Adam on that one?

Caleb

Yeah. Okay. Adam is messaging me saying you should tell them why you're launching. Just kidding. Okay.

So what are we launching? Flux. Flux UI. It's a UI component library for Livewire. If you use Livewire, then you are wrestling with building components yourself, and, oh, we got a hand raised.

Can I get another hand raised?

Ian

How do they I don't know if

Caleb

Aaron raises that, but Ian's refusing to say that.

Aaron

Oh, maybe

Ian

you did. Yeah.

Caleb

There

Ian

you go.

Caleb

Okay. So yeah. So it's basically you just plop in Flux, and now you got your modals, your drop downs, your tabs, your whatever, everything, and it's, like, also kind of a design system. There's layouts and, everything and badges, buttons, typography. You know, it's shad c n for Livewire, basically, is the best way to put it.

Yeah. So I don't know. It's been a long time in the make this is something that people it was, like, the first thing that anybody ever asked me to do being Livewire, obviously. It's like, we need components, you know, and for so long, and I would I just knew it's one of those things, like, this is a massive giant thing that you can do, like, really poorly or insanely well. And the difference between those two things is, like, years.

You know? And I wanted to do the really well thing, so basically kinda took the year to to do it. And then we got Hugo involved. Shout out to Hugo. Thank you, Hugo.

He's watching right now because he's DMing me. Hugo, we love Hugo. He, he elevated everything. The design is just incredible, and it's so nice. And he yeah.

He's just the best. So everything looks good because of Hugo, and he kinda, like, I I had a lot of experience building, like, UI components from headless Alpine. So, like, there's been iterations of Alpine components. So basically at one point, I, like, I decided to make headless UI, like, Tailwind's thing, make that in Alpine. And I did, and I mirrored the API almost exactly.

I scoured every line of their code. I talked to, like, Rob and, like, people on their team, like, making sure that there's, like, parity. And that that was really the the boot camp, and that took, like, a year before this. And that was the boot camp of, like, oh, learning about all the ARIA patterns and best practices and keyboard stuff and performance stuff and just how deep it goes and how freaking complicated it is. And you every component you're like, okay.

I just got through the, you know, I got through the popover, like, okay. What a disclosure. That's gonna be an easy one. That's gonna this one's gonna be easy. And then you're like, everything is so hard.

So anyway, I didn't really use that code, but I used all that experience to build, like, a really robust JavaScript core under Flux that I think is, you know I mean, whatever. It's launching today. It's probably gonna have bugs, but it's, like, super robust, and it's gonna be a good kind of starting point for, yeah, really the non React world, basically. And that's kind of a long term vision is I wanna take that core and unearth it for other ecosystems, because I think it's, yeah, it's like the missing web primitives, like really easy tabs, custom selects, menus, like, cert whatever stuff. So so that's Flux.

You know? You guys didn't know that. So good. I didn't

Aaron

know that. That's really helpful.

Caleb

That's the one we're doing here. They're like, wow. So that's the one that

Aaron

I maybe would've set up in the studio. Shoot. My bad.

Ian

That was literally the first thing I asked you for. I was like, damn, we need components, dude. Like, this is, like, years ago. Like you said, it's like everybody wanted the components. Like, who wants to go to React for this stuff?

Especially, like, Maybe you have these trade offs and like you're some huge company and you have a huge product You're like we want to use react fine whatever but for you know, if you're smaller if you're us even if you're bigger and you don't want the headache It's like we just want to stay in PHP with a little sprinkle of JavaScript That's what we want And there's not really much out there like that, and nothing of this quality, obviously. So it's very exciting.

Caleb

Yeah. And it it's one of the I mean, you know, this is one of those things. It's like, once you build it, you go, it's like, oh, well, nobody should ever build this ever. You know? Right.

Ian

Like, this is why it doesn't exist already.

Caleb

Yeah. And and, like, why was I ever I was such a fool ever building an app without something. Like like, what was I doing making these these apps that don't work? You know? Right.

They just don't work. Not only do they not look good, they don't even work. So anyway yeah. So that's, that's Flux. You know?

It's been, it's been quite the journey. Alright. It's time to give you guys the price update so you can, give your reactions on on live. Okay.

Aaron

Yeah. You don't wanna you you don't wanna share these numbers publicly? Are you saying the perfect reveal?

Caleb

I don't know. I don't know about sharing numbers publicly.

Aaron

I don't know. You're the million dollar GitHub sponsor guy, so I don't know. It's out there.

Ian

It's true. It's out there in the in the ether.

Caleb

I make millions on GitHub over a long period. I make 1 single million spread out over five years of ruling labor minus taxes.

Ian

I wonder if you're the biggest, like, GitHub donation guy. How many people can be making more than a million? Not many.

Caleb

I am. I don't know if they're authorized to tell me that, but they either maybe told me that, or they've I've seen how I at one point, I saw their volume, like, a year ago or something, like, just how much volume they did, and I'm, like, a fairly decent portion of that. Like, again, I don't know what to say, but, I'm pretty sure I'm the biggest individual, sponsor now. Maybe maybe less so now, because it is like I'm kind of branching out into other things. But,

Ian

Well, that was the thing because you pushed your products through it, basically. Like, that's how people bought your product.

Caleb

Yeah. It was like a payment processor.

Ian

Yeah. It was like a hack on your your payment processing. So

Caleb

thought it was a hack. And I, like, reached out to them super early on, and I was like, here's what I wanna do, but I wanna be totally above board about it because I don't wanna get shut down or anything. And I honestly thought that they would be like, man. Like, that's kind of an abuse of the spirit of what we're after. Right.

And they were like, that's exactly what we want everybody to do. Do it, and then let's tell everybody about it and, like, restructure the whole, like, GitHub Sponsors system to have more features that are related to that. So then they added, like, you know, pay gated repos to do for, like, emulate, like, sponsorware. Right. Bunch of stuff like that.

So

Ian

Wow. Yeah.

Caleb

That was I is that crazy? I was, like, I was really surprised. It's like, you guys, that's cool. I don't know. I thought I would be, poo pooed on that.

Ian

But Yeah. That's really cool.

Caleb

So Alright.

Ian

So I have a question for you then. Yeah. Related to the money, we don't have to get into details. Have you sold any teams yet? Because I was a little negative on the team

Aaron

I did.

Caleb

About the teams.

Ian

I was a little negative on the team.

Caleb

Thing is killer.

Ian

Not teams in general. This like, the way it's structured in this isn't Alright.

Caleb

Well, then we should talk about this. You

Aaron

got me.

Caleb

Did we talk about this, Ian? Because I feel like,

Ian

we did talk about it. They might just be new in there.

Caleb

Hear some, maybe you just kept this to yourself. Maybe I did. How do we find how do I find, like No.

Ian

I think we talked about it a little bit.

Caleb

I don't know how to do this. How do I find a sale on a

Ian

Stripe is so bad now, dude. I I can't find anything.

Caleb

I'm gonna open It's all possible. Team products. It's like, yeah, you have

Ian

to go to the team products, and then you have to, like there's some weird top tab with, like, the report or something. It's like there there's not just like, oh, I wanna see how many of each SKU I sold. Like, the most obvious thing everybody would want. No. There's no way to see it.

Like Right. There is a way, but it's weird.

Caleb

I yeah. So I'm clicking into each price.

Ian

Maybe in your database?

Caleb

Oh, okay. I can see it. Alright. So the first team tier, one to five seats, two active subscriptions. Okay?

Ian

Okay.

Caleb

So I'm I'm not hopeful that it's gonna go up from there. It's like zero on all the other ones. But this Right. I sort of anticipated that nobody's no, like, team is gonna go pounce at launch. Right?

Like, it's not like there's not really a team discount

Ian

right you didn't discount it yeah

Caleb

the the team is like a long term sustainable like

Aaron

build you know

Caleb

businesses using this thing I don't really anticipate them being like insta buy this you know I really kind of pushed all the marketing and all the pricing for just individuals to just no brainer Insta buy. I'll buy this so that I just have it whenever I want it. You know?

Ian

Oh, man. I got

Aaron

Yeah.

Caleb

But the team

Aaron

thing problem with the food.

Caleb

Yeah. Let's talk teams.

Aaron

Like that?

Ian

I got I got questions all over the place here.

Caleb

To revamp the whole thing.

Aaron

So what's

Ian

your thoughts on the weekend? Ian to poop on your whole pricing scheme during the launch. Like, I don't know. Right.

Aaron

Stop the launch or whatever.

Ian

Right. Oh, nice update there, Caleb. So well, alright. On the teams, I just think I'm like, Caleb knows this. Right?

I'm big on this type of product being no brainer. It's just no brainer. Just no thought. Like, it's so obvious I must buy it. And I just feel like it's so clear with the other tiers.

Like, it's absolutely no brainer. You're totally insane if you don't buy this.

Caleb

Yeah.

Ian

But the teams, I think, gets and it's not because of the money. It's because it's like the way it's structured now is you have to, like, literally put in all your developers and then you have to maintain that. And then, like, what does that even mean? Like if I'm Disney from Laravel, is it all 500 developers who work at Disney? Is that what that means?

Is it only the ones who use this product? Like you get into all these weird edge cases. You get into a lot of, like, this is a maintenance thing for me that every time I hire or fire a developer, I have to go and update flux. That thing I haven't touched in three years, like, because it's just in there working at some point. Right?

Like, so there's a lot of overhead and com approvals and things like that. Whereas if it was just $9.99 for your team, I just can buy it, and I'm not even gonna think about it. And it's I it's already bought. So That's, I guess, two things.

Caleb

Two things, Ian. Yeah. Well, three things. First thing, you could totally be right. There's a good chance that you're right.

Better chance that you're right. But here's where you're wrong, Ian.

Ian

Give it to me.

Caleb

I love that. I talked to one person who's a part of a team, and they were like, yeah. Nobody does the whole, like, I think you care a lot more about legality and stuff like that than a lot of these kinda small teams that are just like, we just buy the license, and it's fine.

Ian

Sure. Like,

Caleb

we all password share stuff. We have company GitHub accounts. Like, they were just kinda, like, here's the inside scoop. Nobody does the official, you know, thing. So I think there's that, and I've experienced that

Aaron

on a

Caleb

lot of my personal stuff when team pricing is just a licensing thing where it's, like, you don't get anything extra. It's not like a functional tier. It's just like a licensing legal tier, and I don't get a lot of traction on that. So this is my hook Mhmm. That that won't come into play right now.

But the the idea is is the code snippets and maybe future templates and things are hidden behind a paywall because, like, you can't use the thing if you don't have a license anyway. So it's not like, you know, paywalling something that shouldn't be paywalled. It's like Mhmm. You know, I'm gonna make some there for advertisement public so people can see what the code looks like. But if you're a working developer, I don't care if you're Disney and you have 500 devs.

All I care about is, like, give me the amount of money for how many people you need to be in this app all the time copying code snippets and working. It's not like me I probably should modify the, like, license or whatever to maybe express that. I don't know. But, but for me, it's like, this is my first functional team situation where it's like, you can hit copy invite link. It's like using Tubal or something.

Like, real people getting value out of an actual app that they need access to. So they go to their boss, and they go, hey. Give me access or get me on this team thing or whatever. You know? That's kind of the idea as opposed to just, like, on your honor.

You know? What do you think? Because it's changing it.

Ian

I I don't love it, but He doesn't I don't think I don't think it works that way. I don't think this is like that. At some point, like, if I build my whole app on this, I'm not gonna need to go to the docs anyway. Because I'm just gonna, like it's annoying. I go to the doc site.

I can't see what I need to see. I'm just gonna copy the code from the thousand other places that I now reference the Flux input, and I don't know. It's creates a lot of friction.

Caleb

If you're at that point, you just cancel your subscription or whatever. You get, like, you can install it in perpetuity. You just can't, like, get new stuff. You know? So if you because if you're only, like, the ride it out phase, like, you have it, and you can just have it and use it.

But if you're actively working on an app, you're gonna be going to the docs. Like, you're gonna be building stuff, and you're gonna be in it. You know?

Ian

Think about the way I think about it is more like this. The amount of money if we go if we're trying to make the most money k. Right? That's the goal, presumably.

Caleb

I'll just pretend How

Ian

Forever this is right here.

Aaron

This is the most

Ian

Let's just pretend that I'm not talking.

Caleb

Okay. Non experiment. Non experiment. What Right.

Ian

So I I just think this is not a thing. It's not an app that people are actually in all day. Right? So then it's, like, in that at some point, it's not that. Yeah.

Aaron

Maybe in

Ian

the very beginning when I'm building out or whatever. Right? But, like, so how do I get the most money? And I just feel like the most money is making teams $9.99. It could even be $9.99 a year.

Like, if you just wanna have the subscription aspect

Aaron

Yeah.

Ian

Maybe that's something with that. Right? But it's not like assign your devs. We're not hiding the dot. It's like this is the legality is I just think nobody would buy more than one user, but I I think nobody's buying already.

Caleb

Dude, I got

Ian

two people out of all these sales. I know, but that's only two. That's only two on the one to five level. I'm saying, you wanna get these teams who are like, yeah. We have 20 devs.

Oh, great. I spent I keep paying with a thousand bucks. I don't have to think about this problem ever again.

Caleb

Yeah.

Ian

Versus, like I mean, now it's not even that much. Right? 10 to 20 is only $700. Obviously, I have to do 21. More and make it a no brainer.

Caleb

Yeah. Possibly. You're probably right. Let's should we change it? Are we doing this?

Ian

I just think you

Aaron

should think about it.

Ian

Are we changing this? Think about it. You should start the option.

Caleb

Let's see what works. The

Ian

the one other thing is No. Anything. One other little thing about the just a two Wait.

Aaron

Wait. Wait.

Caleb

I'm so sorry, Ian. Really quick. Aaron just said, don't do anything. We need to, like, like, there's, like, Aaron, like, do literally anything. Literally, like, don't Don't do anything.

Aaron

Do This

Caleb

is this is anti Eren.

Aaron

This is

Ian

I don't think you should touch on it right now. Yeah. I don't think you should

Caleb

touch on it. You can't

Ian

do things.

Caleb

You can't just do things.

Ian

I don't think I've ever heard him say that. This is fascinating. Yeah. I can't tell you. Point this out.

Caleb

It has to be pointed out.

Ian

The other thing is I would just say in terms of if you wanna push the team sales, is the unlimited version doesn't say anything about it being for only one dev. So, like Right. You might be able to be able to watch the unlimited and You're right. Oh, I bought the unlimited. That's unlimited, but it's actually not unlimited.

It's only unlimited for one dev, I think. Right? That's the idea.

Caleb

I changed the wording from yeah. I used to have so I had a toggle that was solo dev and team. And then we dissolved the toggle, and now there's no verbiage that says solo dev at all.

Ian

Right. So I, like, I could see people just being like, oh, I'm just buying the unlimited. Like, that's the one that's called out. It's the one that's unlimited. I feel like I think I'm in Yeah.

Caleb

I think I have

Ian

the that's the one I should

Caleb

buy. Yeah. Potential. Okay. Okay.

Ian

Got it. Because it might just be the team version, gives you templates or whatever.

Caleb

Aaron is looking at the website.

Aaron

Because I'm because I'm doing too much off of my phone.

Ian

I wanna go ahead and get you that upsized your phone. But I do really I was I think you made a smart move there, Caleb, on, like, what you did with the pricing and the email you sent and, like, make it's unlimited. It's free updates. Let's we're launching with this. Like, come buy it.

Like, again, super no brainer. Yeah. I feel like that's being reflected in your sales and like, it's just an obvious thing that everybody's gonna wanna use. And I think also there's all the other use cases like, you know, I would buy this if I only need to use a, I guess that's the thing. That's just the more no brainer is the more I'm willing to buy it for stupid reasons.

Like, oh, I need two of the components. Right. I'm built doing a thing with a date picker. I wanna use Caleb's date picker. I don't know if there's date picker in here.

Come on. You know

Aaron

what I'm saying?

Caleb

Like marketing. You're good.

Ian

It's on the road map. Yeah. I'm on the road map.

Caleb

Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.

Ian

Wait. But I'm only gonna use two. I'm not rebuilding my whole product. I'm just building and adding a feature to help spot. And I'd like to use these two components.

Right? So, you know, the easier it is for me to buy it and just be like, yeah, I'm throwing it into this thing to use two components first, like, feeling like it's I'm waiting for the big new thing. Whatever. It's, like, great. It's unlimited.

It's, like, not for me. It's not. But, you know, in theory, it's unlimited, for a solo dev person, and the and you can just buy it, and that's it. And, you know, you can just use it for whatever you want. So

Caleb

I think that's awesome. Yeah. And that's something I didn't, like, put an emphasis on that at all because there's just, like, too much to figure out and where to put emphasis and whatever. But, like

Ian

Yeah.

Caleb

Yes. There I from what I heard the way I see it is totally, like, the drop down menu alone, which, by the way, is open source, so you don't actually have to buy Flux for the drop down menu. But just take the drop down menu, rip out the styles, you know, conform them to your own app.

Ian

Just do your own thing. Yeah.

Caleb

And then now you just have a good drop down component in your existing, you know, setup, and do that with any one of them. Take the modal and just just take that. Yeah. Or and there's even ones that aren't even, like, have no head that aren't styled at all. Like, you could take the context component with your own button and your own popover, and then you have, like, right clicks that are completely your your own thing.

So anyway, yeah, there's a lot

Ian

of toast, which has, like, a front, obviously, but it's still, like, sort of a thing. I might just drop toast into my existing app, right, which don't have toast or have crappy toast or whatever, all that kind of stuff.

Aaron

Can I tell can I tell the time to tell the time to tell the time to tell

Caleb

the time to tell

Aaron

the time to Time out? Report? What? No. What's what's this great?

I'm not getting reports. You are getting reports of 500 errors on Oh. Let me see. You click the licenses to pay 500 error. I'm looking at Twitter chat.

It's nice to be online. I love being online. I I

Caleb

have Hey. Twitter chat. 500. Yeah. OpenFlare.

Ian, can you can you keep talking to yourself or something?

Ian

I will keep talking.

Aaron

How about it's possible you're issuing two licensed phones for every every one purchase?

Caleb

It's probable. It's probable.

Aaron

So if anywhere that you have an n equals two, they're changing to n equals one because they just need one code for purchase. So

Caleb

That happened in local, and it, like, didn't happen again. And I thought that I was

Ian

I hate when that happens.

Caleb

Shoot.

Aaron

Hate when that happened.

Caleb

Why does that happen? I don't know. Okay.

Ian

The other thing I like I'll just keep talking, while you look at that. Is about the other thing I like about single about the idea of, only using a handful of these components and people are willing to pay for that And then there's so many more existing apps than new apps, right? There's only ever so many new apps. So the more this feels like a thing where I can just take a couple components to pop them into my existing app. And and now I have a really nice whatever that's accessible and works great.

Like, that's again, it's not a lot of money. I'm gonna just buy it and not putz around with figuring out the open source. You know, the 84 open source ones that are all terrible or, building my own, of course, which is gonna be way more than however much you pay for flex even on a team plan. So

Caleb

Should've been called.

Ian

I like the idea of leaning into that. These components could be used individually. Opportunity.

Caleb

I said flexion. Flux. I said it should've been called flex. Flux.

Ian

No. Flux. What?

Caleb

I said flux.

Ian

We have to go back to the videotape on that. Okay. Man, that's a flux. I don't like it.

Caleb

It should've been called flex. Continue.

Ian

That would've been cool. That would have been confusing. I like plucks.

Caleb

Go on.

Ian

Nah. That's all I had. Now I'm done talking.

Caleb

Yes. Marketing thing. Yep. Are

Aaron

you still looking for 500 errors? Do you need me to vamp?

Caleb

I mean, like, what? Like, these are things that I could investigate right now, but I think it would be the kinda, like, dropping out of this call, and I think I'm just gonna go, we'll we'll let the dust settle. I'll catch it all. You know? It's like I mean, things are You got people are buying.

Code. You're good. If you got a 500, refresh, try a new email. I don't know. Maybe maybe you could give them my password.

They could go in, turn turn debug on, change app debug to true, then help me out. But I don't see anything obvious in Flare that's

Ian

like It can assure people

Caleb

super bad problem. You know?

Ian

Yeah. That many people are buying. So it's definitely possible and generally working. Mhmm. We might need you know, you might if you might have an individual issue that you gotta, yeah, do do the try again.

Caleb

We're sorry about that, folks.

Ian

Oh, man. We can only be wasting a few days.

Caleb

We can only, yeah.

Ian

Full on three button.

Caleb

Two keys.

Ian

Yeah. I'm ready for that. You have to be prepared to share your desktop in that scenario.

Caleb

Yeah. True. People people wouldn't be being charged twice. Right? Like, that is something I should freaking make sure.

Ian

You might wanna look at quickly. I mean,

Aaron

just let them check that.

Caleb

I I mean, there'll be one after

Ian

the other in Stripe. So

Caleb

Yeah. I got a I

Aaron

got a DM with a potential possibility that you might you'll you'll have to look into later. Sebastian from Beyond Code said Stripe sends webhooks at least once, and you might be getting them.

Caleb

Yeah. It's probably just retrying webhooks and maybe but I thought I made them idempotent. Potentially. Stripe even gives you an idempotency key to just make it really easy, which is pretty awesome. Mhmm.

And And then you get to say idempotency.

Ian

Who doesn't love that?

Caleb

Who doesn't love that? Alright. I'm gonna go to Stripe real quick, give a quick check on this webhook situation to make sure that they're green, man. Sebastian said what did he say about webhooks? Did they fire it twice for fun?

Aaron

It possibly could've fired twice when you're for the reason. So maybe it was That's

Caleb

pretty weird. Stripe is firing webhooks randomly twice. Dang it.

Aaron

Eventually consistent or something like that. Sometimes Maybe because it because there's, like,

Caleb

slow, and then and then they're like, oh, try this while we're waiting. We'll try again or something.

Ian

Yeah. Maybe it was just when the server was messed up that it was slow responding, and so then it was refiring after five seconds or whatever.

Caleb

Maybe. It was, like, thirty seconds there. I wonder. Recent, and it's not every time, but there's definitely, like, some checkout session. Like, here's one.

Checkout session completed. It's literally the exact same exact same time stamp. It's a different event ID, but I wonder if it's, like, the same customer. So I don't know. Who knows?

We'll figure it out. Who knows? I'm sorry if there's something wrong, but it's it's clearly, like, fairly isolated. So, Ian, let me respond to your thing, actually.

Ian

Do it.

Caleb

I didn't but that's something that I didn't bother communicating is, like, hey. Just because it also feels like, okay. Stop, you know, stop with the reasons that I need to get this or I'm really stupid. It's like, yeah. Like, you can just use there's so many ways to just use Flux and not even use the design or not even use, like, any part of it, not use it as a design system, but just use it as, like, good primitives, good UI primitives for your app.

So that's a whole other story that's, like, I just had to kinda pick what my story was, and I don't know. But that was review I thought that people would assume that, but then I like, hearing from a lot of people, they're like, oh, like, oh, I can't wait to use this in my next project. And I'm like, Right. I can use it in this project if you want though.

Ian

You know? Because it, because it's so designed, I do feel like it gives that default vibe of like, oh, if I just, if I use any of these, I gotta use all of them or I can't just drop it in the middle of my project, but really you can, because you have this, the styles broken out and you can just restyle it to look like your other components that are already in your existing app. So, yeah, I think your website I mean, obviously, you haven't had time for this yet, but you gotta flush out the website, like, a lot. Like, in the the landing page. Docs.

Yeah. But I think it should be more than a landing page. Like, I think you should have some different pages that talk about these different use cases specifically and stuff like that.

Caleb

Yeah. That's the large stuff.

Ian

The big landing page that tries to do it all. I mean, whatever. There's different approaches. But, like, really get into, like, the different ways you can use this and the from the, like, just drop it in. It's magical.

Don't think of anything else. All the way down to, like, it's really just a skeleton, and you can layer over whatever panels you want on it and make it look however you want and do whatever you want and all that. And go

Aaron

through all.

Caleb

Communication to be done. And when Hugo and I were just, like, talking landing page ideas and, like, what what do we wanna do with it, we kept coming back to, like, some of these, you know, I don't wanna constantly reference chat CN, but chat CN, like, the landing page is so simple because Right. It's just ubiquitous. Like, it has a reputation. You go straight to the components and you look at them, and it's kinda self evident.

And that was that was the motivation for us. It was like, okay. So we kill ourselves on this giant landing page to communicate every tidbit, or is it just, like, people know the the class of product that this is. It slots into their brain. They can go look at all the components.

We're good to go. But that line of thinking led me to the oh, when you only have the landing page, you know, hilarity issues.

Ian

Well, and also, I mean, right, I mean, I think that all makes sense. It's all logically consistent. Right? Because if Shatsyen is a free and open source thing, and that's all it's ever been. Right?

And it's like, here it is. Use it. Don't use it. You like the landing page? Don't.

Whatever. Who cares? And then they got acquired. Right? So it looks like they're corporate sponsored to be free now, and that's it.

Whereas you are trying to go somewhere different with this. Right? It's like, no, I gotta convince people to separate the money from their wallet and also, you know, longer term goals of, like building this into a many year long, very successful, profitable business. Right? So, like, that's a different kind of website to me than, like, I think it makes sense day one to be like, we gotta get something up.

Let's copy Shad's general vibe in terms of a simple landing page, its components, people know about it. But I think for a business, that's probably not true. And, also, even just going between React and PHP Laravels, that's not true. Because, like, in React land, there's a million component libraries. Everybody gets it.

Caleb

Yeah.

Ian

Right? But here, there's not a million component libraries.

Aaron

I mean,

Ian

the ones that are are very different, right, from from Flux.

Caleb

So They all have different, yeah. There's some that are more

Ian

light heavier. Right? Heavier and some are lighter. You know? Right.

So I think this needs more explanation for

Aaron

the

Ian

part of the market that hasn't been as exposed to components as Yeah. The React has. You know?

Aaron

Ian Ian, here's my question. Where was this advice before launch morning? What

Caleb

is here. Where was this advice last night at 10PM?

Ian

It's alright. It's fine.

Caleb

We have time.

Aaron

I think

Ian

this is fine because you know what? The people buying right now are people who know Caleb, and they're they're in. Right? They're in Livewire. It's fine.

Caleb

Yeah.

Ian

This is fine for, like, the launch landing page. It's doing well. It's fine. But for the, like, a year from now, I don't think it's fine for a year from now necessarily. Yeah.

Caleb

There's two different things here.

Ian

What this can be. Right? Like Yeah. Yeah. That's the difference to me.

It's like, yeah. This is, like, people who know Caleb who are on his list, who are, like, all aboard the train. That's a separate group from people who randomly behind you from a PHP component search on Google. Right? Yeah.

That's a totally different person, and you wanna get them too, but that's a different kind of

Caleb

work. Yes. Yeah. That's a whole thing.

Aaron

How are we doing? Give us some many how many retweets, many

Caleb

Oh, alright. Haven't even looked at Twitter. Okay. It feels good so far. Numbers so far.

Wise, Caleb is happy.

Aaron

I Caleb is happy. Make sure

Caleb

I I more so now than before, I make sure to set my expectations as low as I can reasonably do for myself and really try hard to convince myself that it's gonna totally flop. Nobody cares, and I'm gonna make $0 because I've been, like you know, I think I said this on the podcast. I've, like, historically have been let down on launch days. You know? Yeah.

So it's like, no. No. Just prepare yourself. It's a you know, the the train goes on the tracks and it chugs along. It's like a longer thing.

It's not just the first ten minutes. Yep. So it's already, like, way way more than than my super low expectation. So I'm feeling good about it. Great.

It's like I have I have, like, total good feeling, like, yeah. This worked. Cool. It's like people are pumped. It's, it this is validating.

It's all good for me. So let's look at some Twitter stuff because I haven't even literally opened that.

Aaron

Well, that's what that's what you get when you have a super high quality live stream production. You know, you can just totally exceed

Caleb

expectation. That's right.

Ian

There's already Yes. There's a black market forming for the extra license keys. So that's

Caleb

Oh my gosh. Oh my god.

Ian

No. I I don't think really people are joking around, but it is kinda funny. That's funny.

Caleb

Yeah. Because that's a tricky one. I I think I I think I'm still in, like, a grace period window of, like, a day or two where I could revoke that second added one, and it's like, well, you just you know, if you happen to have used it in a project, like, in one day, like, that's on you. Just, like, kill them all day.

Ian

Worry about it. Don't even think about it. Just fix the error and never think about

Caleb

it again. Don't worry about

Ian

the two, like, that's too, like, the same person. They can only use it once. Yeah. Who can you know what I mean? Like, you're just gonna make a bunch of support where, like, you turn off half the licenses for people because they use the second one, they use the first one, whatever.

Keep going.

Caleb

You didn't leave at 1AM, so it's on. Last night, I issued, 1,500 licenses to which I yep. 1,500 licenses took forever, and I had no idea why, but to test at example.com, and I couldn't figure it out for the life of me. And I started putting, like, all these logs all over, binning in, like, trying to figure out what the hell is going on, thinking it's a problem. I don't know.

I did fix it, but it's just, like, funny licensing it. I have so much to clean up. Like, those licenses are just there, and they're part of, like, you know, I'm, like, quote, unquote paying for them on any stack. Like, it's all part of the, like, quota.

Ian

That part's annoying.

Caleb

Yeah. So whatever. I can say from

Aaron

my own

Ian

experience, building your own store, which is what we have for HealthSpa is a terrible idea and horrible. But there are times you can't avoid it and it does let you do things which you otherwise can't do if you just only play in the Stripe Playground. Right? Like, you can just do other sorts of things. So it does have its advantages, but it is very annoying that it's not a pretested built and wonderful system.

You have to go through all the bugs about building a software product

Caleb

Dude, it's not. It's so gnarly. Yeah. It's so gnarly. It's so

Ian

It will never end for you. I'm telling you that right now. It just bugs all the way down.

Caleb

It's it's just bugs, bugs, bugs. Yeah.

Ian

And they always get pushed off where the screen's not perfect or something's wrong. You can't get the data you need. Are you gonna do it now? Or do you wait and then you just do stuff in the database manually all the time? Because you're like, well, I don't wanna build the thing to the store because I'm working on the actual product and

Aaron

yeah.

Caleb

Yes. And when you're building the thing, it's it's like it's so MVP. Get it. It's it's the last priority. It doesn't improve anything.

You know? It's not nobody's like, oh, I hope the licensing system is really, like, works well and is fast and good. It's like they just expect that. Yeah. So it it's just this thing that doesn't really add value, but it's so much work.

Like, way too much work. Yeah. Just way too deep.

Ian

Spent literally a year rebuilding our back office, like, last year. It was literally a year because we have, like, twenty years of different license things. We keep supporting the old ones and Yeah. It does all this other stuff. Like, it we handle invoices and credit cards and checks and whatever.

Caleb

There's a

Ian

million things, and it's like it's a humongous application we should probably be selling because it's, like, that's how big it is. Like, crazy.

Caleb

It was very important for me to flub up the the first launch, the preorder launch, because I just learned, like, so much. And

Ian

Yeah. One of

Caleb

those really valuable lessons that I think we've talked about, but it's, like, Europeans need their VAT numbers and stuff on their invoices, and they need invoices, which is so weird because I don't issue invoices for anything, for any of

Aaron

my other

Caleb

stuff, and nobody says a word.

Ian

It's like This is the product. This is more product y than the other

Caleb

things. It's more product y. So it's just Yeah. Yeah. It was one of those that hidden secret knowledge that just whacked me in the face when I just was like, oh, yeah.

Why do you, you know, 650 people need, like, invoices? Okay. Well, I'll build a quick invoice generator that there's, like, one morning alone. All this to say, if I didn't pitch you on ZenVoice, it's so sick. This is Mark Liu's thing.

Oh, it's the best.

Ian

Oh, interesting.

Caleb

I mean, it's a very MVP scrappy kind of microsass, but it is to it is like the perfect representation of of somebody I mean, like, here's an annoying problem that a certain subset of people know so well, and the pitch is as simple as, like, one sentence, like Stripe invoicing fixed. And then it's like, don't you know, I'm making this up, but it's essentially this. It's like, don't deal with support requests for, like, adding VAT IDs to invoices, and I was like, oh my soul. And the pricing is generous. It's one time pricing for a SaaS,

Aaron

and

Caleb

it's, like, $70. So I literally I spent hours issuing invoices and adding custom stuff, and then I just was like, oh my god. $70? And then you're done. You put a link in your dashboard.

There's a link that's called invoices that somebody clicks. They click it. They put in their email. They're on ZenVoice now. They put in their email.

ZenVoice sent there's no law there's no username, password login. There's no o auth. This is Just

Ian

bills that

Caleb

you level stuff. They they send you a login link. You know? This is just so MVP. And then you open it, and because I authenticate it with Stripe and whatever, they see a table of all their Stripe orders from me, from my store, and then they can customize their invoice.

It's literally the thing that I was building for myself, which is awesome and all integrated. So they can add they can customize all their own details. I don't have to fiddle, fuddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle,

Ian

fiddle, fiddle,

Caleb

fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, f So Yeah. Shout out to ZenVoice.

Ian

These are all things people have to relearn. It's crazy.

Caleb

Yep. So we learned. We learned.

Ian

Maybe someday it'll deal with purchase orders. That's what we also deal with, which is a whole contract. I know you love contracts, But purchase order contracts, if you get big teams that wanna buy, you know, a hundred licenses, they're gonna be like, yeah. Well, we gotta do a purchase order, and you gotta send us licenses, whatever, the whole thing.

Caleb

Yeah. That sounds, well, you're, yeah, you're in it, Ian. You know, you're I'm deep in it. We're deep. You're really in it.

Ian

We're well, producer producer Dave, has a, people are asking how long the launch discount is.

Caleb

No idea. I have toyed with

Ian

I think it should be forever, basically.

Caleb

I thought, like, a day At least the time. A week, and then I'm like, yeah. I don't know. I I don't know. I don't know.

I can't commit to it. If I ever commit to anything, then I will I will either be held to something I hate or I will lie to you. That's just the

Ian

way How about at least? At minimum?

Caleb

Oh, at minimum a few days. Yeah. Okay.

Aaron

Yeah. Here's here's my here's my lunch. You know? Mhmm. You gotta you gotta keep it going for a while to get the big lunch spike.

Let that die down a little bit. And then when you send out an email, it says the lunch, the early access discount is going away. That's the

Caleb

done in spite. So you gotta you gotta

Aaron

spread those two things out just a little bit.

Ian

Excellent point. You got it's gotta be, like, weeks then. Couple weeks.

Aaron

Mhmm. Yeah.

Caleb

I don't know about a couple weeks, but definitely Yeah.

Ian

You're not feeling it.

Caleb

No. I mean, I've I know. Totally. I mean, that's that's the move. That's the the formula.

You do the thing, and then you go hike, and you do that thing. And then Black Friday comes and you go hike, and then that's your that's your marketing strategy for the year. Mhmm. So definitely gonna do it, but, yeah, I don't know the timeline around it. I still like, I guess I there's a part of me that wants to be, like, true to it being, like, a special thing, you know, and not just, like, do this right now.

Aaron

Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

Oh.

Caleb

Oh. Oh, oh. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Oh that's pretty hefty

Ian

for the solo dev tier.

Caleb

That's like that come from, Ian? Well, it came from

Ian

Where did it come from?

Caleb

Well, so the initial pitch was $99 a project for one year for one project. You know? Right. So it's like if you build up from that. So at that, people were DM ing me and being like, I just need an unlimited tier.

It's just it'll make my life so easy. I'm a freelancer. Just tons of this. They're like, get an unlimited tier. I'll happily pay you $500, whatever.

But if it's unlimited and they were saying $500 a year. They're just like, I just need unlimited projects because I wanna use this in pet stuff. I wanna use this in client projects, and I don't wanna fiddle with, you know, individual stuff. Yeah.

Aaron

So that

Caleb

was kinda lodged in my head as, like, okay. What people are at least what I know that a decent subset of this market, the freelancer, contractor, solo dev subset would pay $500 for just all access. Then the rest of folks, there's, like, a more accessible price. And so that's where 500 came from. But it is it is a high anchor.

I don't know if I'll, like, immediately switch back to 500, but that's that was sort of the plan.

Ian

Man, it's killing me that it doesn't say, like, solo dev or one dev on there, man. The business dad legal Ian

Caleb

is like His dad's upset.

Ian

I'm doing I'm doing the I don't know. This is scary. Scary. Yeah. Not it's not enough money that anybody's gonna actually, like, care in a sense.

Right? So that's the good side. It's like, somebody's gonna sue you and be like, you told me I could use it with unlimited, but it's not unlimited and whatever.

Caleb

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I gotta do that.

I think it yeah. I could just add a single line item. There's a little that that's this is how I make business decisions. Is there enough space to add an extra one without, like, messing up all the, like, the tier, like, invites? It's like, okay.

There is. I can solve that problem. Forget.

Ian

I got I got another thing I wanna talk about too of questions for you.

Caleb

Hit me.

Ian

But let me see. I'm I'm reading I'm you guys talk for a second. I gotta read something here before I

Caleb

get to answer your question.

Ian

Yeah. What did what is your haircut? In that car.

Aaron

Yeah. Eric, do you need

Caleb

to crack a window?

Aaron

I'm not a great start to the week. I'm gonna be honest. You know you know, weekends are tough, and then the week starts and the weeks are tough, and then the weekends come and weekends stop and just

Caleb

And the weekends stop.

Aaron

Round and round we go. We're doing okay. We're making it. We're making it. Alright.

Caleb

What you need to do, I think, is what I'm going to do, which is a conference that you're not speaking and aren't involved in in any way.

Aaron

Yeah. That sounds fine.

Caleb

It's like a vacation, I think. I think I'm about to take the first vacation the first, like, real vacation I've had in a very

Ian

long time.

Caleb

Oh, wow. Real time. Out at Rails World? Oh, Rails Conference. Yeah.

Rails World. Yeah. I'm so excited. Like, I have nothing to do and nothing to prepare for. I'm just gonna go and, like, you know, I can't wait.

Just stand off.

Aaron

That's awesome. That's awesome. That's

Caleb

yeah. So maybe that's the move

Aaron

It's gonna be you and Adam and Taylor. Y'all just gonna hang out the whole time.

Caleb

It's true. I'm very excited. Very excited. Oh, Taylor's going to be pretty sure.

Aaron

Is going. Is he?

Caleb

So yeah. Hang with him.

Aaron

Yeah.

Caleb

And then the few people I know in in rails, you know, that, like, hopefully, they'll wanna hang out with me, but I get it. Like, this is their turf. You know? They got people to see. They got hands to shake.

Ian

So what are you what are you hoping to get out of RailsConf? Are you Oh, I mean deals of the Rails ecosystem? Are you just, like, hanging out? Or you just take how

Caleb

long ago is it?

Ian

Is it multiple days

Caleb

of two hours from my house. Oh, god. That's nice. I'm going

Ian

to go Toronto. I never mind. Have to

Caleb

go. Right. And my friends are going. And and then there's also this, like, feeling out, like, what the rails ecosystem is like and if there's some sort of maybe opportunity to do a little bit flux in up the rails world or a little bit of

Aaron

hostile takeover.

Caleb

Something going on

Ian

in hostile to go.

Caleb

It's like there's a little bit of strategy here. You're just a little bit of, like, hey. Let's go

Aaron

on your rails. How are your drop downs, guys?

Caleb

Go see my friends. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Yeah. Well, how do you I'm

Ian

just going to see my friend. She's a girl, but I'm just my friend. Here. Yeah. Yeah.

Sure. Go here. Yeah.

Caleb

Aaron, that's No.

Ian

I think the reverse. This is what you're telling your actual girlfriend. I'm going to hang out with other girls. She's just my friend. Don't worry.

Caleb

Yeah. Right.

Ian

You know what's going on.

Caleb

Friends. And, honestly, I am so excited just to, like, sit and see DHH in the flesh yelling at my face.

Aaron

Be awesome.

Ian

The hair just go in. Oh. Why is a fan on him?

Caleb

Right? Because it's been a while since I'm like, yeah. I I'm really hoping to get a good, like, meet your heroes kinda, like, starstruck moment out of this. Like, you know, I wanna be I wanna be there and be like, he's right there. You know?

Ian

He's right there. It's not there. Yeah.

Caleb

Yeah. I wanna touch him. You know? His hair his hair. So, yeah, I'm excited for for Rails World.

It's gonna be sweet. I almost bought impulse bought a framework 13, laptop. You know? You guys follow this?

Aaron

Definitely, you can impress DAT.

Caleb

Yeah. I Just to, like have

Ian

it with you.

Caleb

Just yeah. Well, yeah. Alright.

Ian

Both sides.

Caleb

Oh, this is my fault. That's crazy. But I'd be like, hey. Like, can you get this working for me? Like,

Aaron

I

Caleb

can't actually get it working at all. I'll literally bring a bag of parts because if they ship you the parts, you have to assemble it.

Ian

Oh, right.

Caleb

I'll literally just have the bag. I'm like, like, check out my framework. But, yeah, I was so close to impulse buying a framework 13 and installing Neovim and just living a rails, like, existence for three days. Yeah. And I would've if they were available, but they're not because DHH is probably making them very rich right now.

So I think I hope he rails

Aaron

you with, like, a handshake or a pat on the shoulder or something.

Ian

That'd be awesome.

Aaron

Maybe you can touch the form of his robe.

Caleb

I don't think this is one Oh, he's

Ian

gotta have a robe.

Caleb

That's right.

Ian

He's gotta have a robe.

Caleb

He's gotta have a robe.

Aaron

He's gotta have a robe.

Ian

He's got the whole Jesus haircut going. He's gotta have a robe. If he comes out in a robe, how great will that be? God.

Aaron

It's amazing.

Ian

Man, I almost wanna go now just to see if he has a robe. Go. I think I should.

Caleb

It's not too late. It's too late to get a ticket. Yes.

Ian

I I can find it. Tickets out there.

Caleb

It's too late.

Ian

You got a ticket. I can get a ticket. Waz can give me a ticket. Waz

Caleb

can make anything happen. Yeah. Waz can make anything happen. Yeah. He'll conjure a

Ian

ticket. He'll conjure a

Caleb

ticket. Me. Exactly. Grateful for the Waz man. Yes.

Ticket to

Ian

Oh, man.

Caleb

Thou shalt go to

Aaron

rails. Jesus.

Caleb

I mean, honestly, it feels like this is a we're so back moment. You know? This is this is where it all started. It was like Mhmm. DHH is Jesus.

Adam's the priest. That's how this started. You know? Then things got a little weird for a minute.

Ian

They got weird. Back. Back. We're back. The universe it's like when they go back in time, they try to change time, but time won't let itself be changed.

So it's gotta the timeline has to reconverge onto what always would have happened. Like, that's what's happening here.

Caleb

This is a new story arc for me. This is Isn't it about time change? I'm like, this is pretty cool.

Ian

We should make a

Caleb

movie like this.

Ian

Come on.

Caleb

He's like, you know, the movies I'm like to be changed. Okay.

Ian

Yeah. Okay. It doesn't work.

Caleb

Doesn't allow myself to be changed. I'm like, tell me more. No. Was there. Let's get

Ian

back to Flux. Give me

Aaron

back to Flux.

Caleb

Give me back to

Ian

Flux, people. We're not selling. DHH has plenty of money. We need It's true. Caleb doesn't have plenty of money.

So we need to work where that's what we're fixing here. So Yeah.

Aaron

Erin doesn't have plenty of money. Come in.

Caleb

Erin?

Ian

Erin, you don't look the worst of us right now.

Caleb

No money. He has no house.

Ian

He's literally a GoFundMe. We're gonna put a GoFundMe up for Aaron. GoFundMe for Aaron.

Caleb

Oh. That's great.

Aaron

Alright. Hey. What I

Ian

know I was I was very, very scared, very scared

Aaron

Mhmm. About

Ian

your terms of service.

Caleb

Yeah. Yeah. Don't bring this up, Ian, publicly, but keep going.

Ian

I just I just wanna touch on

Aaron

that at least. Bring up

Caleb

all the things that we said are fine if nobody says anything.

Ian

Come on, dude. Everything that's fine. Gonna do what business

Caleb

dad does. I talked to a lawyer.

Ian

Did you really?

Caleb

His name is Claude.

Aaron

Oh, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Ian

I don't I don't yeah. Exactly. Claude.

Aaron

Right, man. What are your problems?

Ian

No. I'm not gonna go through it. I'm very happy to see you covered a couple things. I was a little concerned.

Caleb

You look at it?

Ian

You you and Claude. Yeah. That's what I just did. I just read it just now.

Caleb

How do you feel about it? Give me the review.

Ian

I feel I feel okay. I feel happy. A. Yeah. That's right.

Aaron

No way.

Ian

So listen. You guys aren't the first. I Okay. What is that? True.

Caleb

Okay. You're the craziest thing.

Ian

I've gone through this with a million people in Laravel where I try to buy their product, and I'm like, okay. Can I see the terms? And they're like, we don't have any terms. And I'm like, well, that's a problem for me. Right?

Because I have a product that you could distribute, and always the terms say you can't distribute, and then I can't buy your product. And then they fix it. Oh, it's like people like Aaron Francis forever. I've gone through his terms and many others. But, yes, you covered that.

So you got me. Claude and you have that part down. It's a it's a little, like, thin, but it's there. So that's good. And What what do you expect from Claude?

And I

Caleb

So this was actually last night at 9PM, I think. There was no terms. And then Claude came in, swooped in, and it all just, you know, manifested. I started just going to everybody else's stuff, copying their terms, pasting it in, and having it just rewrite it every time.

Ian

Flawed, like, make it work.

Caleb

Here's this product. Here's this product. Here's this product. And then, like, give it to me, and then I give it actually, this was actually really cool. I I started the conversation with I need blah blah blah terms.

Okay. Don't write them for me. Ask me all the questions you would need to ask me to then write it, and it was awesome. It gave me, like, 10 really poignant questions.

Ian

Use it that way. Yeah.

Caleb

And then I just answered them as fully as I could. And out of the gate, the terms were pretty good. And then it was just, like, do it more like this. Do it more like that. Is there any and then random stuff.

Like, take this terms into account. Does that change anything about these terms? Is there something in here that these are that this is missing or the tone is different? And then I took all that, started a new chat, and then was like, here's term you know, because it sometimes gets into a little hallucinating. You could take it too far on a path, and you're like, we're too far on this path.

Yeah. So just, like, pull it out, open a new chat, and be like, here are my terms. What do you think about them? Are there any holes you could poke in it? You know?

Yep. We love Claude.

Ian

I do like Claude. I group a lot to Claude.

Aaron

To which they're going to to prove to Ian that you put a lot into there.

Caleb

This is very tight.

Aaron

Asking questions.

Ian

I got an hour with Claude. Can you imagine every, like, IP lawyer in the world? They're just, like, people come in with these Claude built licenses, and they're just like, god. This thing's a freaking mess. This person's, like, totally open.

Like, people just used to come down with nothing, and they got to do the whole thing. Now they have to fix other people's, like, half done things, which is always worse.

Caleb

But,

Ian

and on the surface, I do like this. It looks good. I mean, you should still 100% contact a lawyer, but at least you did also have I'm just gonna need it.

Caleb

Cost me? Be straight.

Ian

It doesn't matter.

Caleb

How much tell anyone. What's gonna cost you

Ian

to not do it? That's the question.

Caleb

Nothing. Because nobody gives a crap. No. It's not true. Not paying for it.

Ian

If you ever get if you ever literally get 14 sales because, like, the terms are correct, then that's you've already paid for the lawyer. In

Caleb

the terms $50,000. Alright. Right. I see. Or $3,000.

Cost cost. Yes. Because Claude made sure to cover me that my liability is only limited up to a refund of the Oh my god.

Ian

I really hate to tell this to you guys. I feel like you guys love living in the fantasy land of the industry. Like I do. Just because you write something in there doesn't mean it's true or legal. So, like, you know, you know,

Caleb

There were definitely some things in there. There were some things there that I'm like, I hope this is legal. Like, I hope this is no idea.

Aaron

It's a contact. Anything is anything you're right. Friday night.

Ian

Anything Rose.

Aaron

Been married. It's legit.

Caleb

It was saying some stuff about trademarks, and I was like, I don't have any trademarks. I hope this is okay. Yes.

Ian

You do.

Caleb

Like, I think it's saying it's like Lux?

Ian

Livewire. These are Those

Caleb

are trademarked. Oh, yeah. But they're not. So it's like it it's like Yeah. Everything fluxed, like, copyrights, including its copyrights and trademarks.

Ian

Everything. Yeah.

Caleb

Yeah. Yeah. It's cop yeah.

Ian

You should have a trade you don't have a trademark on Livewire? You should get a trademark on Livewire.

Caleb

I don't know if I can. There's a motorcycle. I'd have to

Aaron

No. It's

Ian

not a trademark. Yeah.

Caleb

It's a different domain. Yeah. Yeah.

Ian

Yeah. It's fine.

Caleb

It takes, like, two years and it's hard, and I don't know.

Ian

I just It costs, like, your right dollars.

Aaron

Trademark. Can't you just say hi to Claire trademark.

Ian

There's all these steps

Caleb

for bankruptcy.

Ian

And then you have to you want it to be a registered trademark, so there's some extra hoops you have to jump through.

Caleb

What's the difference between a registered and non registered trademark?

Ian

It's basically, like, goes through extra, like, steps with the government and extra a longer period of time where, like, people can fight it and say, no. I use the term LiveWire in another software product, and Caleb's so screwing me.

Caleb

Can I declare a nonregistered trademark? I'm literally saying this is not registered in any way. This is saying I

Ian

don't remember if you can just say

Caleb

I'll say a completely unregistered trademark.

Ian

I think you there is some element to that where just by using it, you're doing it to some degree.

Caleb

Right.

Ian

But then, like,

Caleb

Those are the laws I like.

Ian

Protect it. Right. But you have to

Caleb

I like this sort of just, like, this email is is like con like that kind of stuff.

Ian

It's like a protected man. I'm talking about all the lawyers you need are like $6,000 total, and you just spend the $6,000

Caleb

There's the number. I'm trying to get out of Ian.

Ian

Yes. So what I'm saying is like 3 or 4,000 for the terms of service, maybe less, and two or three salaries for the, like, trademark registered trademark stuff. And you just pay it, and you're happy you have it. And here's the other thing. When someone wants to buy this from you someday, when it's a huge thing and you're ready to sell, people are gonna come in and be like, oh, you don't actually have the rights to any of this stuff.

That's a huge bummer. Like, how do we buy this? But you don't own the the term flux is actually used by some other component library for ten years before you started using it. And that's a big problem. Blah blah blah.

Like, they this way, they check on that

Aaron

stuff, and

Ian

you know you're good.

Caleb

Dave Dave We're coming

Aaron

from surgery. We got to go easy on him. He's a fucking nice

Caleb

He's about to recompense the bladder.

Ian

This whole generation doesn't like lawyers. Lawyers is the best thing ever. When they're working for you

Caleb

Lawyers are the best thing ever. Bad.

Aaron

When the

Ian

ones that are working for you are great.

Aaron

Yes. Worst take.

Ian

No. It's a great take.

Caleb

I'll I'll go solve all this stuff. Dave bleep this out in the the edit so that I'll go fix this stuff and and unbleep it.

Aaron

It's fine.

Caleb

Then when people come at me, I got, you know, the failures. Just Well,

Ian

you got the changes. That's the interesting thing you have in here is you you left yourself the out of you can modify the terms at any time.

Caleb

I did. I was I was excited that Claude let me do that. Claude suggested it. I was like, that's a great suggestion.

Ian

You gotta have that.

Caleb

You could have easily just not suggested it, and I'd be completely locked in.

Aaron

That was the main

Ian

thing I was looking for.

Caleb

We can do that. We can just kinda change it a little bit.

Ian

Yeah. I was like, I don't wanna, like, look in this thing and says, you know, there's nothing about changing the terms, and you gotta so you got that. That's great.

Caleb

Terms. I went from zero to 2% five 15% knowledge of terms in about an hour

Aaron

That's what last night.

Ian

Exactly. I just

Caleb

you know? I mean, you you heard my big spiel. Like, clearly, I put a lot of work into this. Like You did. Chatted.

Chat.

Aaron

So, like, can we go home in the morning?

Ian

I'm ready.

Caleb

Good. But

Ian

see here but still here's the funny thing, though. Here's the funny thing with you guys. I listen to you too.

Aaron

You guys. Do.

Ian

Oh, no. You're one

Caleb

of this.

Ian

Girl away. Are part of this, Erin. I'm gonna loop you all the way in.

Aaron

Podcast community.

Ian

I listen to you too.

Caleb

No. This is it.

Ian

Hour and a half on notes on work Okay. Talking about people taking Livewire and doing stuff Caleb doesn't like with it necessarily and people wrapping code, and we don't like when they wrap the code and all this stuff. And how do you think you've been changed man. People doing that? This is how you do it.

It's through terms and licenses. Terms. That's how you prevent those things that that you don't like. And this is the this is a product you can actually do it on, unlike Livewire, which you're The

Caleb

problem with any of that, Ian, is like Yes. What am I gonna do about it?

Ian

Nothing What? This is not even

Caleb

I wouldn't even know what to do about it.

Ian

Hey. No. Yes. You would.

Caleb

Don't do that.

Ian

You know? That's exactly what

Caleb

you that's the point of

Ian

love, Darren. With with Livewire and things like that, there's nothing to do about it. Right? But with this, if somebody just takes the whole thing and sets up shop tomorrow,

Aaron

right, and

Ian

says Yeah.

Aaron

I got it.

Ian

I am bucks u UI. Right? Then you wanna be able to go to their service provider and be like,

Caleb

take the f down. They're just gonna go with the l in the name.

Ian

Bucks u I. Yeah.

Caleb

No. No. No. Give

Aaron

the f.

Ian

No. I

Caleb

tried getting a mistake.

Ian

No. So Okay. You could go to their Internet service provider and be like, listen. They're using my trademark. They're using my copyrighted source code.

They're against my terms. They can't do this, and you could take their sites down and all this stuff. But if you don't have things documented and legal Yeah. Then it's harder to do that.

Caleb

Well, then we we do know. We have the terms.

Ian

We do have term tests.

Caleb

We have the terms. Stop. I hear you.

Ian

Oh oh, it's upside down. This is great.

Caleb

Here it goes. I know.

Ian

The car is

Caleb

upside down. Flipped. So my my

Aaron

my phone went into emergency overheat mode right when you were wagging your finger at me. So that was the universe. What what did

I do

what did I do wrong? What what did Kevin and I do?

We were

Ian

just talking about how you guys spent an hour and a half on notes on the More than

Caleb

this guy with his lawyer talking.

Aaron

You know that.

Ian

More business time. Business time stuff.

Aaron

No. So that Nobody wants to hear it.

Ian

You're not just saying bad corner. Let's get off a business ad corner.

Caleb

This on the note of the hour and a half podcast about people stealing stuff, the really the conclusion from people like you who were like, dude, you just have to honestly charge for the thing, and then people won't steal it. It's like, if you give it away for free, they're gonna steal it because it's not stealing. If you charge for it, now we're stealing it. But also, it's part of that. Realization for me.

My parents realizing

Aaron

it as well.

If it's free, it's not

Caleb

stealing. That is correct. If it's free, it's not stealing.

Ian

That's right.

Caleb

So, honestly, like, it's a great feeling. It's like

Ian

But not right. And you just go to that the final step in that thought process

Aaron

Yeah.

Ian

Is that the reason that that's true is because what you are selling them is defined in this contract called

Aaron

the

Ian

terms of service. That is what literally we're talking about. That's the difference between Ian. The free thing and this thing is literally the only difference is the terms of service. That's the difference.

Caleb

That's a wild thing. I believe in this alternate universe of just, like, how far reasonable expectation just takes you on its wings, you know, of just, like, just, like, no terms. I bet it would survive fine for a long time. Everyone would just be like, well, yeah. It's like this pain thing.

You can't you know, it's just there's a lot of the and this that's so this is what I wanna bring to you. Insurance. You won. Ian, loosen up a little bit.

Ian

I can't. I can't do it. The other so I'm gonna go the opposite of that and say that this isn't actually terms of service. It's supposed to be called a license. I don't know the

Aaron

difference between those with me. Don't raise your voice, please.

Ian

It's not terms. It's a license. You're not providing any services. You're providing a license to software.

Aaron

Oh, god.

Caleb

So Claude did kinda lead with with terms of service and license agreement. I started scouring, and it looks like everybody's kinda just playing free and loose with the terms of terms and license. It's like Yeah. Some people there says license, people says terms. And I kinda it's like, I'll split the difference.

Aaron

I'll put

Ian

I'll do both. Both. You know?

Aaron

Perfect.

How can you do it?

That's not that's not technically what splitting the difference is, but I do like I do like the final outcome. Splitting the difference is different than doing both for sure.

Caleb

I gotta think about this split the difference situation. It's not split the difference between the trade. Yeah.

Aaron

It's like each. Yeah. Difference. Not all of both.

Ian

Or all of both. Of both.

Caleb

We'll split the difference of the trade offs where, you know, we like

Ian

to trade that. We do we do it all. Yeah.

Aaron

Perfect.

Ian

I like it. Combine the business side corner.

Aaron

What else can

we do?

Ian's getting you gotta stop complaining about us, man.

Caleb

Yeah. We're sales.

Aaron

What are the vibes?

Caleb

We're slowing. Okay.

Aaron

Like, we hate that.

Ian

We don't like that.

Caleb

It's fine, though, because I had an internal, like, this would be sick, and we did hit. I did update you guys. Right? Yeah. I think we Yes.

Ian

But I don't think we got we don't know the sick if you hit it number. I

Caleb

don't know. That's the one. The last number is the I hit the number that's, like, sick.

Aaron

You know?

Caleb

We got

Aaron

to internal sick mode. That's great.

Caleb

Internal sick mode.

Aaron

That's awesome. That's a day one launch right there.

Caleb

Yeah. So we're we're actually happy about that because that's an hour one launch. We're an hour and ten minutes.

Ian

That's true.

Caleb

That's true. In and, you know, Flare isn't it's still yeah. You know? The errors, unless maybe Flare needs to be refreshed, and now I'm gonna see all the errors.

Ian

I mean, people are buying

Caleb

It's not so bad.

Aaron

Yeah. Yeah. Me

and the bank. Yeah. Who cares?

Yeah.

Ian

You're you're gonna be out there talking about this forever. Right? So it's like, whatever. If they don't buy today or something went wrong, they'll buy tomorrow.

Aaron

They'll be alright.

Caleb

Let's see. This is an important metric. How many emails? How many support emails do I have to get through? Mhmm.

Okay. 46.

Ian

Okay. But a lot of

Caleb

And this is over. So it it was 200 season. It was 200 last night.

Aaron

And You need a Linda, man. That sucks.

Caleb

I already got a Linda. His name is Josh Hanley and Oh, okay. Ben Sherrod, who both are in different time zones. And I was like, dudes, I gotta go to bed, and I have 200 emails. Here's access

Aaron

to my

Caleb

help spot. Here's some

Aaron

saved replies. Please help

Caleb

me. Alright. Here's the password. Here's the here's the message

Aaron

to somebody.

Send you the password. Just use the one.

Caleb

Yeah. Just alright. Yeah. I don't wanna type it out.

Aaron

That's funny.

Caleb

Just use the one.

Aaron

Just use

Caleb

the one password. Use the one password. You just gotta use one password. Oh. My sales

Ian

pitch for

Caleb

one password. Oh, good. It's No more than one.

Ian

One yeah. New product named one password. It only lets you have one password. Yeah. I hope everybody would die from the beginning.

Aaron

Oh, it's

a good bet. That's a good bet.

Caleb

Handle it.

Ian

I love a bet. We love a bet. We love a bet.

Aaron

You gotta have a bit.

Oh. Oh, man.

Caleb

And it's a bit

Ian

I love there's there's, like, 5,000 people watching this just on Twitter, and we're just talking about one password and license terms. And, like, we're not selling anything. Nobody even knows what we're they're watching.

Caleb

This is anti marketing, Ian. This is anti marketing. Yeah. It's

Aaron

all strategy.

Ian

It's all strategy.

Aaron

Oh, that's good stuff. Alright. So you got a 40 support emails.

A 40

Caleb

support emails, which probably way more than that, but I think Ben and Josh are both being real dudes about this and are in there.

Ian

That's awesome.

Caleb

You know, just going in. Just sweet. So, yeah, we appreciate that, Ben and Josh. That's that's how we do things. You know?

We're real, last night situation kind of watchers. You know? You get yourself into a mess. You get yourself out of the mess. That's what you

Ian

But you got people on it. That's the business thing

Aaron

we are.

Caleb

Right? That's,

Ian

like, did the

Caleb

business thing.

Ian

Yep. Yes. And if you charge for things, then you can have people on it, which is the nice part about that. Right? Where it's hard to have people on it when it's if it was just totally Oh,

Caleb

I see what you're saying. Having people on it. Yes. It's all paid.

Ian

You can pay people on it.

Caleb

Invoices. Right. I don't feel guilty about being, like, you know, and it's very much I've yeah. It's actually during their workday, which is amazing. It's like, it's midnight, and I'm calling in a favor, and it's, like, the middle of the day for

Aaron

those guys.

Caleb

You know,

Ian

it's like, yeah. It's just like, oh, yeah.

Caleb

Sure. Whatever. Make this part of my workday. I'm a freelancer. I can do that.

Aaron

What the money is for. That's right.

Caleb

That's what the money is for. Yep.

Ian

That's what we're buying. So that's awesome. That's pretty much that's what

Aaron

what else you got? You got a bunch of you got a bunch of

you got a bunch of you got a bunch of you got a bunch of you got a bunch of you got a bunch

of you got any queues on Twitter? I can't look at Twitter because

I got the

whole phone thing going on.

So So Twitter

I'm not even saying anything funny?

Caleb

Alright. So Twitter is broken for me. Basically, nobody likes my tweets ever, which is fine. But, like, I get so much more, like, traction and attention. Aaron has Twitter loves Aaron, and Aaron does a good job at Twitter.

Twitter does not love Caleb. Guess how many likes I have on the big tweet?

Aaron

The big tweet. Alright.

Caleb

Guess.

Ian

I'm gonna go 50.

Aaron

I'm gonna go three three hundred and fifty.

Caleb

Right. So 350 would even still be, like, I've gotten more likes on that with random just Right. You know? Yeah. A 17.

Aaron

No. No. On the big screen. Going over.

Ian

Closest without going over.

Caleb

So, you'll I actually never know what views so retweets is 58, which is, like, a ton of retweets. Yeah. And Twitter is just, like, no. No. No.

I don't wanna blame this all on Twitter, but this this thing worked before.

Aaron

It did work well.

Caleb

Wrote this tweet and put it out there It did work before. Four years ago.

Aaron

Yep.

Caleb

This thing would have a thousand likes. Like, no problem.

Aaron

How many views does it have?

Caleb

Seven and a half thousand. What? What's that? High or low?

Aaron

I actually

Caleb

don't Criminal. Low. Low. So they're burying it Yeah. Which is nuts, but that's how Twitter works for me, dude.

Aaron

That's why

Ian

we gotta get out.

Caleb

Nobody out.

Aaron

We gotta get out.

Caleb

They hate me. It's so weird. And then, like, other folks I'm not gonna mention any names, but other folks just, like, tweet some I can't say his name. He's right here. He's and he just, like, tweet something.

They tweet something, and it's just, like, boom. And good for you, Aaron. But I'm telling you, man, if I tweeted the same thing like, the algorithm is warm. Right? Like, it knows.

It's like I

Aaron

think it knows.

Caleb

It knows because I swear we could do, like, an AB test or something.

Aaron

Mhmm.

Caleb

And and you're, like, hot. Twitter's like, this guy, we're gonna show to everybody. And he's like, this guy, silence him. You know? It's weird.

You do

Aaron

a better

Ian

job. Like,

Caleb

you engage. You do.

Ian

Does what he wants. Yeah.

Caleb

That from you at all.

Ian

But he knows that that's video

Caleb

Thank you.

Ian

Which is what they want. They want

Caleb

the game. Even the video. I

Aaron

did the video. Has a video.

Ian

They talked to the video.

Caleb

The intention was to have a video.

Ian

Moses, into Twitter. Like, all the people.

Aaron

I asked

Ian

the priest

Caleb

right before coming on here, and he's like, take the picture. Do the video.

Aaron

Yep. You know?

Caleb

And I'm like, you gotta do the video. I have a big locked and loaded trouble.

Aaron

To go. So here here's one thing I will say. They do seemingly, they do seem to test engagement slash reach for the first thirty minutes or an hour, and so it's possible it's a slow start.

Caleb

Put it on

Aaron

the track. Yeah. So that's possible. Alright.

Caleb

Who knows? But this is my life,

Ian

and that's how it goes. Thing.

Caleb

And that's why and if you guys know, like, you engagement off of Twitter, and you know the number and everything, it's, like, it's all great, and I'm so happy. So now I'm just conditioned to looking at Twitter and just being, like, it's all crap all the time. Never have high hopes. It's always gonna flop. Nothing ever works on Twitter for me.

Aaron

That's a that's a good one. I feel like a life just generally. It's all crap

Caleb

all the time. It's never gonna work. This is after dark Aaron's. Yeah. This is this is Aaron on the car mantra.

To it. The car is

Ian

a whole different person.

Caleb

All crap.

Aaron

It's all crap.

Caleb

It's literally all crap. You can't You could literally

Aaron

can't use anything.

Ian

List. You know? It's the email list. It's like, that's the thing now.

Caleb

I know. You gotta just go for these other channels.

Aaron

Which I

Ian

don't even do that. I'm trying to go for that more.

Caleb

Aaron, what's the secret? Like, just do what Aaron does. You know?

Aaron

What is the secret? I don't know.

Ian

Easier said than done.

Aaron

I tweet a lot. I respond to

Caleb

people helps a lot? I don't like to reply to anybody outside of my notifications. You know? Yeah. I

Aaron

think, I no. I guess I respond to a lot of tweets on main as well, but I respond mostly to people that respond to me. Yeah. I don't know. I also try not to like, on a launch day, I would try not to tweet anything except the launch tweet.

Caleb

Which I flubbed by, like, tweeting and deleting 10 tweets. It's like streaming, not streaming, trading, streaming, not streaming. Sorry. Not sorry.

Aaron

Yeah. Maybe. I don't know.

Ian

Could be.

Caleb

Yeah. I

Ian

mean, but it is a little different audience too, I think. Yeah.

Caleb

I think, like, I think something to try. What what I should do is just run experiments, and one of them should be replying to folks on main. Just, like, naturally, all my friends and stuff, they're doing stuff. Just be more interactive if if I wanna, like, see if that juices up the Twitter situation. Mhmm.

Because, like, of course, there's a part of it that could just be content and audience mismatched. It's like I had the match for so long. Yeah. Like, I have a hard time believing that those people there's just not a match anymore. You know?

Ian

I get it

Caleb

that, like, there's

Ian

like, a thirty six minute video being bad for you. Like, they want you to

Aaron

Yeah.

Ian

Like, they want the Aaron video. Right? Like, it's two minutes. It's highly produced. People watch the whole thing to the end.

Yeah. Whereas like this, probably people watch and then instantly it plummets off and they're like, okay, I got the bottom

Caleb

scrolling video engagement and stuff.

Ian

Oh, for sure. Right. And so then they're like, oh, it's dropping off after. A minute or two two minutes or whatever.

Caleb

That is interesting. Right?

Ian

Let's bury this thing because people aren't watching it. You know? Yeah. I

Caleb

could see

Ian

that being I know I'm not Interesting. Mister beast thing that YouTube is, like, super big on that. Like Right. For sure. People don't

Caleb

watch till the end

Ian

It's all retesting. Dead. Right? Yeah. So yeah.

So it could be I

Caleb

just figured Elon fired that guy again and was like there's, like, they just, you know, they don't have that, like, built in there. But

Ian

I hired try hard studios to make you short.

Aaron

Oh, you should do that for the flex lot.

Caleb

Little You should yeah.

Aaron

You should hire us to make a video for the flex line.

Ian

You said flex. You just said flex again.

Caleb

No shit.

Aaron

I said flex.

Caleb

Get a

Aaron

fuck. I said flex.

Ian

No. You're not.

Aaron

Go to the tape. I said flex.

Caleb

I would have taping to do.

Aaron

This is

Ian

what happens when you never say your product names in real life. You know? It's like, oh, yeah. It could be confusing really.

Aaron

I I

Caleb

say flex. And, yeah, I do. I've typed Flux also in Tailwind, so that has happened. You know? Flux calm.

Ian

Just so natural. Right? Yeah.

Caleb

Yep. Yeah. So we gotta fix Twitter. Maybe we gotta fix Twitter. We gotta try some replying.

I gotta I should toy with, high retention short videos. That's hard to do, obviously. That's that's the try hard part. That's like, okay. I really wanna try hard

Ian

to do

Caleb

right now?

Ian

I don't know.

Caleb

So maybe I just take the l. I don't know.

Aaron

Can I just Can we can it hit us with some ConvertKit open stats? What are we looking at?

Caleb

Oh, not good. Okay. Well, this

Aaron

is what

I did. Over there.

Caleb

Let me let me give you the the deeps. This is what I did. Well, so I'll tell you. I mean, I emailed the preorder folks, and that has a 70% open rate. So That's true.

Aaron

What are you talking about? That's amazing.

Caleb

The pre I mean, but it's a preorder folks it's gonna be pre order

Aaron

oh the people who already

Caleb

ordered 700 people

Aaron

pre order it's all in the name there

Caleb

this is the convertkit business is and I usually do this so this one the actual launch email goes to, like, the broader audience. I try not to send it to, like, people who are completely not in the the vertical. Like, if you if you only subscribe to, like, Alpine stuff and not live where stuff, you're not gonna get this email. If you only subscribe to Versus code stuff, you're you're not gonna get this email. If you subscribe to my blog however many years ago, like, you're gonna get this email.

So this number is gonna sound high, but it's loaded with old subs and just, like, tons of disinterest because from in my mind, it's like, well, for this one, we'll just do a big scattershot, and then the open rates will be way lower. So I just did a deep dive on my Alpine launch, and this is what it was then. It was like good open rates, good open rates, and the launch email's super low because I blew it up to the full size. So okay. Stats.

Flux UI is now live. Email went out to 62 and a half thousand people, and it has a 20% open rate, which will probably go up to 30 when all is settled. And then plug in this

Aaron

18,000 people?

That's a lot.

Caleb

Yeah. Yeah. It is. 5% click rate, but there's not, like it's not the most clicky email. 3,100 clicks.

We can go to use Fathom. We should have been tracking that stuff for fun.

Ian

It is a it is a Monday morning too. Are you gonna resend to the people who didn't open, like, later? It seems like that could be a good idea.

Caleb

Know how to do that. To have an email. Resend a phone number.

Aaron

I think they have a button.

Ian

Yeah. You can just

Caleb

tell me. Do that. I definitely would send I'll make a follow-up.

Aaron

We'll do,

Caleb

like, get a bunch of testimonials, you know, follow-up the Adam the Adam Wadden way. Yeah.

Aaron

Get a

Caleb

bunch of testimonials, you know, social proof, add some more value, whatever. Remind people in a few days, maybe Wednesday, do another push, bump it up from that with people who haven't purchased yet. Then, yeah, maybe maybe more of that, maybe not, and then the the final, you know, the final, hey. It's all ending. But Fathom is so 229 real time, which is pretty good.

Aaron

That's pretty good. It's a lot of people at once.

We're Yeah.

Two hours in. You know?

Caleb

It's, and so, you know, who knows how accurate that number is because a lot of people have, like, ad blocky type stuff. So So for me, it's like a relative number. Like, I know that, like, Livewire docs are usually around, like, fifty, sixty people on any given day, real time. And Alpine That's a lot of people.

Aaron

Is

Caleb

kinda the same. So, like, Alpine right now is 32. Livewire is 50, and old Livewire is 22, and, let's see. And, and sushi.dev is zero. So Oh, yeah.

That's not doing as well right now. But for GWI, it's 234 and, yeah, which is great. That's great.

Ian

Yeah. And the That's amazing.

Aaron

It's not

Ian

gonna sustain that. It'll be lower than Livewire docs at some point. I'm sure. Right? But you know, like, obviously, to for still be going that strong now as

Caleb

soon as we get down. You know, it probably will be, but I think that Flux will be a stickier app than even the Livewire docs because especially if I do what I plan to do, which is, like, adding new stuff, adding templates, making it a Lego bin of, like, you're just going there all the time to grab a chunk of HTML to plop in. You know? Like Right.

Aaron

I

Caleb

think it'll just I only go to the Laravel docs now when it's either a foreign concept to me that I barely ever touched or it's, like, validation or something. I don't know. You know?

Aaron

Right. Yeah.

Caleb

Yeah. It's, like, once you kind of absorb the tool, I don't I I very rarely go to the Livewire docs. Like, I needed to go to it once for Wire Navigate or something. So there is some kinda, like, taper off, and it's the same with Flux. But with Flux, I'm gonna go back for, like, copy and pastable stuff that I'm obviously not gonna memorize.

You know?

Ian

Right.

Caleb

So I don't know.

Aaron

Where where did you get where did you get 62,000 email addresses? That's a lot.

Caleb

You know, Aaron, I've been at this a minute.

Aaron

Okay. It's a dark red

bones. Yeah. I

Ian

Dark web purchase.

Caleb

It's really, I mean, I guess I think it's two things. It's, it's having valuable web properties, like, that are if I say but you know what I mean? It's like having having the distribution of good doc sites is, like

Aaron

Like sushi.dev.

Caleb

Yeah. Like sushi.dev.

Aaron

Yeah.

Caleb

Exactly. So something like sushi.dev is just ops site. One old huge. You know? But, honestly, the most valuable thing I have, usually, I say it's email list.

But in this conversation, I'm gonna say it's, the doc sites because you just have all this distribution built in. You can throw up any ad on there. You can put on any give me your email here. But, but, yeah, I guess it's just, like, I don't know, probably six years, seven years of building lists, five years of building list aggressively. But a lot of it is, like, you signed up for Livewire screencast, and you are opted into this.

So that's, like, if you if it was pure all, like, only users had to put in their email address to get updates, it wouldn't be that high for sure. And that's just, like, a tactic that I've chosen is just this very, like, please unsubscribe. You do not have to hear anything about this. But, generally, it's like an indie business, so I think there's a lot more, like, goodwill than if it's just, like, a a normal, like, suit and tie business that's sending you crap all the time. It's

Aaron

just like, you get

Caleb

an email from me. I wrote it that morning, and I do it every three months. You know? Yeah. And that's sort of the that's sort of my strategy, yeah, for for the emails.

But I need to cull that list for sure because I think I'm paying for tons of people who never open anything. You know? Right.

Ian

Yeah. Like, it

Caleb

my the ConvertKit costs are, like, 700 a month or something now. It's just like,

Aaron

well Oh.

Caleb

So, yeah,

Aaron

I've gotta

Caleb

figure that out.

Ian

You don't wanna pay you don't wanna pay a lawyer one time to do your trademarks. Look at this guy.

Aaron

He just couldn't help himself. He just had to go back to business dad's corner.

Caleb

He just had to do it.

Ian

Great. It's just it's just to tee him up, I gotta hit him out. You know?

Caleb

This is, like, I think a good business lesson for business dads. So listen up here, Ian. Okay? No. The like, a a product like ConvertKit, you're always thinking, oh, well, it's the thing that makes me money.

So, like, I'm always comparing my mind, like, 700 a month versus all the money I make on these launches, and it's, like, yeah. Great. Sure. But, like, help scout, I go, why are you paying so much for this? Like Of course.

Ian

I know this. Stupid. You know what I mean? Center stuff.

Caleb

Yeah. So, anyway, there I I feel like ConvertKit. It's it's a genius founder mixed with a genius product, like

Aaron

Right.

Caleb

Fit, and it's a it's just the best. Like

Ian

It's a money. I love the the things tied

Aaron

to the money

Ian

are the best.

Aaron

Caleb, you should go to Boise and do the podcast. That'd be great exposure.

Ian

Oh, that's a good idea.

Caleb

To do that, Aaron. I absolutely should see if see if he'll have me.

Aaron

You should do that. I just DM'd him and said, can I do that? And he said, you can do that, and that was it. That was it.

Caleb

I think

Ian

it's gonna make I don't think it's gonna make you any money, but it still would be cool. And it's just crazy.

Caleb

It would be great. It would be good exposure, and it would be somebody to me Legend. Like, you know, Adam is my immediate kind of, like, puppet master, priest, or whatever you wanna call him.

Aaron

Superior officer.

Caleb

If Guru. He had it at least early on, like, Nathan would have been his. So it's kinda like a grandpa.

Aaron

Your grand guru. Yeah.

Caleb

Yeah. Like, just go in there.

Aaron

Producer Steve lives in Quincy. And if if he's not in the hospital, you could hang out with producer Steve too.

Ian

That would be cool.

Aaron

Oh, god.

If he's not in the hospital,

Caleb

we could hang out and then go in the

Aaron

hospital doing something You guys

could go

Ian

mountain biking together. Yeah. Is he back in the hospital?

Aaron

No. Not that. Not

Caleb

that time.

Aaron

Just when I was up there.

Caleb

He didn't send it recently. When he if he sends

Aaron

it Yeah.

Caleb

He yeah. You guys

Aaron

should go mountain biking and just not hurt yourselves because I need him. And also, I like you, but I need him.

Ian

Sure. You

Caleb

need him. He's more important. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

Yeah. That would be fun. Producer Steve and I, brief aside, we have, a ton in common of, like, ten years ago. Like, I was I thought video was my thing. I had, like, a video business.

It was the whole thing, all the gear, and I followed all the people and everything. So he knows all those people. Like, early he's followed all the same people, so it's just really cool. We just, like, forgot about that whole part of my life. He was like, oh, did you watch Grayscale Gorilla?

Oh, yeah. Grayscale Gorilla. He's still doing stuff. Oh, did you watch video go by? So, yes, Steve and I, we could hang.

We could bike. We could end up in the hospital. The fat the real time fathom is holding strong. Two fifty one. Two 50 one, I already know to be there's there's metrics I know to be excited about and ones I know to not be excited about.

Open rates, not excited anymore. Twitter, totally not excited. Stripe, excited. Fathom, excited. So

Ian

Dan, thanks, Dan. In the chat says, Taylor gave, gave the stream the retweet. So it looks like got the bump in numbers. So welcome everybody. New, new viewers.

Caleb

Yeah. Talking about flux.

Aaron

Yeah. Tell them what we're supposed to

Caleb

be doing.

Ian

PHP component library.

Aaron

That's

Ian

gonna make your dev life so much easier.

Caleb

Yeah. So may maybe, like, I don't know. Is there anything more interesting to say that I haven't said already? Is there something that you got that we can mine here, like, an obscure component or something that's cool or a a tidbit, or maybe I can tell you something I think

Ian

is cool. Yeah. I had one, a question for you about this actually. It's perfect for this. So one thing, so I knew, you know, you were doing this and I was excited about it and I figured components.

I got it. But the, the one component that I'm super excited about that I was not at all expecting. Yeah. Was that you did all the layouts and like that stuff is always such a huge pain in the ass and it's not usually in a component library or at least not in the way you seem to have built it with fully realized. And it just works as opposed to like, yes, there's a hamburger menu and you can wire it up with this other thing.

And like, it's still gonna take you all day to actually make it work the way you want it to work. Yes. Across all the responsive states. But I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like it's just like, no, you use these blade tags and boom, you have a fully awesome navigation and sidebar and all the unit folders, which nobody ever does full even tail when you hide in the proper folders or at least they didn't. So yeah, we got it.

It's

Caleb

got folders.

Ian

It's got folders. Look at this. Nobody ever designs things for real apps. And it so pisses me off that it's like, no. In a real app

Caleb

I fall

Ian

for folders. Three items on the left mark. That doesn't work. Nobody builds apps like that. Like, you fall for folders.

You're my man. You get it.

Caleb

So, Ian, thank you, Ian, for the alley oop. I really appreciate that. Let me just briefly let me get a hoo I'm gonna give a few things, and you get you've both built layouts. Yes? You've built layouts for apps.

Aaron

You know the struggles.

Caleb

You've done plenty of times. So I'm gonna give you a challenge, and then I'd like to get a hoo hoo. I'm not I'm not gonna give you that.

Aaron

Maybe I'll give you a woo hoo.

Caleb

Give me

Ian

a I don't even know what a hoo hoo is, but I'm ready. Let's do it.

Caleb

It sounds like something my son would call something Right. That he saw, and Yeah. I wanna hoo Yeah. Oh, really quick. On the hoo talk, River the other day said, pee out mouth when I spit, which I thought was hilarious.

Aaron

I've heard I

Ian

heard that.

Caleb

So that was very funny.

Aaron

And he

Caleb

said something else that was freaking hilarious, and I meant to write it down. I forgot.

Ian

That that I love that age where they say the funny stuff. That's hilarious.

Aaron

But make

Ian

sure you get videos of it because, we have so much fun with like, obviously, I only got, like, four percent of them on video. Right? But those 4% are just so great. We love those videos.

Caleb

Yeah. I I gotta keep a list. I did I used to do this with, like, Hannah when, like, she would say, like, funny stuff. I did this with my mom when she would mess up idioms. I called him Carol.

Oh, that's nice. Carol. Yeah. And so she had, like, it's a doggy it's a doggy doggy world, you know, stuff like that. I made this big list and ended her fiftieth, like, read it all out and everybody was dying.

Aaron

Oh, that's a great idea.

Caleb