MicroConf Recap

Aaron

Hello, Colleen. It's like I just saw you yesterday almost.

Colleen

How about that? Well, hello again, Karen. Happy to be home. How about you?

Aaron

Yes. Very much the same. We, just got back from MicroConf, both of us yesterday. And so, yeah, there's a there's a ton to cover, because we didn't record last week. A lot of stuff happened, and then we went to MicroConf.

And so where do you wanna start? You just wanna take it in order?

Colleen

Sure. Let's take it in order since I think it's been a few weeks, like

Aaron

Yeah. Okay. So let's start. This one's gonna go to you. So let's start, I think, a week and a half.

No. Actually, 1 week ago exactly. Let's start 1 week ago exactly with the big, the huge decision.

Colleen

The huge decision. So we made a decision that is either going to make this company or break this company. As I said, this will either be the best decision I have ever made for us or the worst decision I've ever made for us. And we made it together, but I do feel like you really let me take the lead on it since it was on the rails side. And so what we did is we essentially cut off our consulting arm.

We will no longer be doing consulting around the product.

Aaron

Pretty drastic decision. I appreciate you letting me join you in making this decision this time, unlike unlike the tiny seed surprise, which worked out great. So you're you have a good track record. Yeah. So we cut it off, and it's it's either a great decision or a terrible one for these reasons, I think.

It's either it could be a great one because it will allow us to focus and figure out, like, let's actually make a product here. The downside, of course, is it was great money, and not just, like, you were making great money doing consulting, but we were also making money, like, subcontracting out people. And so now that whole revenue all that revenue source is gone, and we're living on on borrowed time now. But that kinda, like, lights fire, and we gotta figure out gotta figure out the product. So a week out, how how are you feeling?

Colleen

I feel great about it. I think one of the things that's important to remember and kind of what what I feel like was the final push to push me in this direction was I was accidentally building a business I didn't really enjoy working at. And ultimately, why are we doing this if not to build a business we enjoy working at?

Aaron

Yeah.

Colleen

And we were just going further and further down that productized consulting route. And that's a great business model. And to your point, it was a lot of money. It was keeping this entire business afloat. I was paying myself a salary, but it's just not why I'm doing this.

Like, it's just not. And so to me, that was kind of the the final decision point was what do I wanna do? And so I feel great about it today.

Aaron

I think it's we've, like, kind of circled around this for a long time. Like, oh, Colleen is gonna replace herself, and then she'll be fully free, and we'll we'll get the money and the focus. It's just that wasn't gonna happen. I think we tried a couple times to fully replace you, and turns out everyone loves Colleen. Everybody wants to talk to Colleen all the time.

And so I don't I don't know that there is a world in which you're completely mentally separated from the client without just saying sorry, like, we can't do it.

Colleen

Yeah. Yeah. I think and honestly, I think this will be better for everyone. So I am excited about it and terrified at the same time.

Aaron

Yeah. So we talked to the client, told them like, hey, here's the deal. Tried to make it as easy as possible for them. You can have a perpetual license to the thing. We have these great developers working on it.

Can they just contract with you directly? And they seemed fine. They're they had a few concerns around, like, are we gonna be able to keep using it? And it's, like, yeah. Totally.

But they seemed completely fine, and I think it is gonna work out best for everyone because now they don't have the they don't have to well, we don't have to think about how does what we're doing for them affect the product. It's like, y'all just do exactly what you need and don't worry about the other side at all. So hopefully, that works out for everybody.

Colleen

Yeah.

Aaron

So that was last Thursday, then Friday. Boy, boy, Friday Saturday, some stuff happened. So so we broke up with the client, and then you turned around and broke up with me too.

Colleen

I totally did that.

Aaron

It was Slacked me on Friday morning. So we've done it. We've done this huge, like, oh, we free. We've got all this time. Like we're gonna make it.

And I get a Slack from you on Friday morning. It's like, hey, do you have let me know when you have 5 minutes. And I Slacked you back and said, that sounds ominous. And you didn't say a word. I'm like, oh, no.

Colleen

It was in fact ominous.

Aaron

Yes. It was in fact ominous. And so then we talked for quite a while, and you basically broke up with me, but I salvaged it. I got,

I got you back. It took,

it took till Saturday, but So, what happened there?

Colleen

Yeah. That was, you know, that was that was a day, man. That was a very, very intense day, Friday.

Aaron

That was an intense 2 days. Yeah.

Colleen

It was an intense 2 days. Yeah. And I think that's part of this this whole deal. Right? The hardest part about this is dealing with your own psychology.

And having a cofounder is just weird. Wouldn't you say? Like, our relationship is so unique and kind of bizarre, and it's easy for me to blame you if things don't go the way I want because you are my partner in this. And I,

Aaron

yeah, I just, I don't know. I was just high

Colleen

on breaking up with everyone.

Aaron

So I guess.

I guess.

Turned around and shot me in the face, man. Yeah. It was like, I think I think the the hardest part, and this is the thing that's like extremely reasonable to me, is we're just in super different spots, you and me. Yeah. So I think my synthesis of it all, and we have since, post synthesized it together at MicroComp.

But I think one of the things is, like, we broke up with this client, and now it's like, Colleen's out there. She's kinda she's kinda just free falling. I mean, we have tiny seed money, of course, but it's like, this is no longer an infinite runway. This is very much this is very much let's do or die here. And your situation is different than my situation.

Like, I have a job. Yes. I'm sacrificing a lot in terms of nights and mornings and weekends, but fundamentally, it's pretty bent. Like, we I could, you know, walk away today and my life wouldn't super change. I'd be extremely disappointed and a lot of sunk cost would be gone, but I would still be able to, you know, pay for the house and food and stuff.

And so I think that's one of the big that was one of the big things was, like, we ended this relationship on Thursday with all this, you know, free cash flow. And then Friday, it was, like, hang on, man. What are what what are you doing? Like, you're not doing anything. You still got a job.

And so we, you know, went back and forth on, all right, well, do you wanna do this together? Like, do you wanna do a solo run? And I think all options were on the table there for a while.

Colleen

Yeah. Absolutely. I we absolutely. All options were on the table. And you were very classy about it in terms of how we would break up.

I mean, we got so far as we decided how we were gonna break up. I think you're right. I think there was a when we had that safety net, nothing felt as intense or as you know, it didn't feel like everything was on the line. And as soon as I cut that off, even though I wanted to and I spearheaded that, I feel like, as soon as I cut that off, yeah, I'm kinda like swinging in the wind out here, and I have to make a salary. Like, I have to make money.

Unfortunately, I'm not in a position where I have infinite runway. So then it was like, what did I say to you? Either this works or we die. Like, I know that's dramatic, but that's to me, I think the difference is that's how it felt. And and, again, me seeing your life, and to your point, I know you don't want to walk away, and it would be very sad, but also you would not be materially affected or impacted in any way like I would.

And so I think that's kind of why we have a unique situation in terms of where we are in our lives with our needs and our families. And, you being part time and me being full time, it's just kinda weird. So it just adds this additional level of, like, stress and pressure to the relationship. Yeah. And, also, I like to make all the decisions all the time.

Aaron

Yeah. I'm glad you said that. Yeah. I didn't I didn't wanna, you know, I didn't wanna out you in front of all of our 12 listeners. But, yeah, it it it was funny.

We talked it it really felt like, oh, man. This is not like a business breakup. It felt like a breakup breakup.

Colleen

Like Yeah.

Aaron

It was intense. And at the end Intense. At the end, it came down to, like, we settled on on 2 things that couldn't both be true. Colleen likes to make all the decisions. Like, you want you want to not, like you you wanna be in charge of your life, and also you want to be cofounders with me.

And it was like, okay. The both either one of those is fine. Neither one is morally objectionable. You can't have both. And that's I think that's where I left you on Friday night.

It was like, hey, either one is fine. You can go forward either way, but we have to decide, like, which one is it gonna be.

Yeah. I think you

said Saturday go ahead.

Colleen

No. I think you said

Aaron

to me, like, what'd you say? You're like, if you keep me, like, you have to take me as

Colleen

I am or something really cheesy like that.

Aaron

It wasn't like that, but it was like, if you keep me, you have to live with me. That's what you said.

Yeah. You said Yeah. That sounds a little less a little less Jerry Maguire. Yeah. Yeah.

And that was it. I was like, okay. Well, game over, I guess. And then you texted me on Saturday, and you said, I thought about it. I wanna do it with you.

And I immediately called you. I was like, what's going on here?

Colleen

Yeah. Yeah. It was it was dramatic, and I think it's worth bringing up here on the podcast because they say so many businesses break up because of cofounder struggles and cofounder, like, disagreements. And this is by and whatever that phrase is, way, way the biggest one we've ever had, I would say.

Aaron

For sure. And I am quite proud of us because I think we handled it super

Colleen

well. We had you and your great communication skills.

Aaron

Yeah. And just for the record, so everyone knows, she's not, she's being serious. That sounded like you were saying I'm terrible at that.

I'm very good.

Colleen

That was for real. Like you do have excellent communication skills.

Aaron

Yeah. Like, it was a pretty big deal, but it wasn't like it wasn't a fight. We were just trying to figure out, alright. Well, okay. If this is reality, then what do we do?

And I think, I think you and I are quite good at communicating. And I do. It sucked big time, and I don't wanna do it again. But, hey, we did a good job.

Colleen

I think so. And I think that was kind of a a pivotal again, when we look back at the history of this company, hopefully, once we're wildly successful, that week in particular will be just such a pivotal, like, decision point. Because I wasn't sure either if we were gonna stay together on Friday. And so I think having that discussion, and a lot of it is just figuring out what you want. Like, why are you doing this?

Like, these kinds of things are so important to to take a deep dive on when you make these these decisions.

Aaron

Yeah. I think at one point, I did tell you the only thing you have to figure out is what you want out of your life. Yeah. And it's kind of a joke because it's like that's the hardest, like, that's the hardest thing to figure out, but that's all like you, Colleen, you've got to figure out what do you want from your life, and that's not easy, especially when there's another person there. So we made it.

Colleen

We made it. We're still together.

Aaron

We're we're still together. We're supposed to leave. In fact, we did, for microconf on Sunday, and I think I'd, you know, messaged you on Saturday and was like, am I still going to this? Like, should I come? Because I don't wanna go to a marriage conference with my ex girlfriend, you know?

Right. And and then later, you know, you texted me and like, let's do it. And so Sunday, we went to, we went to Denver, and we got to see a bunch of friends.

Colleen

Yeah. That was great. Where to start? Okay. So we made it through.

We covered that. You got on the airplane. I wasn't sure if you're gonna get on the airplane, so I was happy to see you. It's like, I still don't know if he's gonna show up after I dragged him through the mud like that. Anyway, so micro comp.

Let's talk about that.

Aaron

What There was a little bit of tiny seat up front, so we should probably start there.

Colleen

What was that? What'd we do? It feels like a blur. It was so intense.

Aaron

We got in we got in Sunday afternoon and immediately met with a tiny seed friend slash mentor about it.

Colleen

Yes. That was great. So, yeah, we spent those first the first evening and half of the first day no. The whole first evening just in deep, deep talks about what we want our business to look like.

Aaron

Yeah. We went, we went in exhaustive circles around, like, what are what are we doing here? And it was really it was super duper helpful because you and I had you and I had something in mind in terms of, like, what's the future of the product specifically going to be. We had something in mind, and we started, like, trying to flesh it out. And when you start talking about it, all of the weaknesses, it's like all of the holes become very evident.

And so, you know, we sat in the lobby for several hours, and then at the tiny seed dinner, we sat around for a few more hours, like, trying to explain what we're doing, and we went down a few went down a few side trails of things that would be technically interesting, but we have, like, you and I have no product opinions on. It's like, we could do this thing and it would be really cool. I don't know who that helps. Right. And And it was interesting because the whole exercise was exhausting, but we kind of landed back at our original thesis because we have a point of view on that, and I don't know how much we wanna get into what it what it is.

But that was my take on on the first afternoon, evening.

Colleen

Yeah. I thought it was awesome that our friends and advisers just I mean, we just riffed on this for, like, 6 hours. Like, literally, it was at least 6 hours that we just talked about this and this idea. I don't think we should get too much into it yet since we're still kind of fleshing it out, but, that was awesome. So super appreciate everyone who just jammed with us on those ideas and poked holes in them, and we looked at what what was out there.

And I'm really happy with that process. And I do think it was interesting. We had a hypothesis. We came in. Within 3 hours, I was like, oh, I don't know about our original hypothesis.

Came up with another hypothesis, did a complete circle, and then I wanna say the next day landed back on our original idea. But I just thought that exercise of, like, let's see how this business can fail. Let's just talk, you know, let's talk it through. What are even the questions we're trying to answer? What are we trying?

What is the problem? Who is the customer? What is the market? Do you design for a specific customer, or do you just accept that, like, people have this problem, and we're just gonna design a more holistic solution and see what happens? Everyone has an opinion on that, and it was great to be able to get everyone's opinions, synthesize it for a bit, and figure out what we wanna build.

Aaron

Yep. I think Friday night no. Wrong day. I think Sunday night, we both left thinking, oh, man. Like, this new idea is probably what we should do, but I don't know enough about that, but we should do that.

And then Monday morning, we skipped one of the sessions to just, like, resynthesize together, and we both came back saying, like, I feel strongly about our original plan. And that that felt really good because I think we we sussed out all the other options and didn't feel strongly about them. So it made the original one feel like, yeah. This is what I wanna do.

Colleen

Yeah. To me, it really did. I think, again, since we are doing this pivot and we have the flexibility to build the kind of business that we want, this is a big thing for me now, especially having done the previous or done the business as it is for 2 years, and it's really not like, I don't wanna do it like this for 5 more years. So we wanna build a business that we wanna work at. And I think having an idea that we both think is cool, a problem we wanna solve, it is really what we wanna do.

And I like this idea so much better than our alternate one we came up with, which is probably a good idea too. Mhmm. Just not for you and me because we don't have the subject matter expertise

Aaron

Exactly.

Colleen

To solve that problem. I think the best thing you said was I don't have an opinion about that. And, like, what's the point of, like, you have a very specific skill set. Right? And, like, what's you gotta leverage that.

And You have an opinion about sequels. So Yep. That's the direction we should be going in.

Aaron

I think so. That's what that's what, that's what sealed it for me too. We were talking about option b, and I was like, I just don't have it. I don't have a point of view. I don't have anything to say.

I don't have any strongly held opinions, and therefore, I would just be like, alright. I built a thing. I have no idea if it's good, and I have no idea who to talk to about it. It's like, it doesn't seem like the right answer. So we did that, and then we went freaking go karting because we needed a little joy in our lives.

Colleen

Yes. So glad we went go karting.

Aaron

Me too.

Colleen

So the funny thing about go karting is I thought I was gonna be awesome at it because I'm, like, just an advanced

Aaron

I'm shocked I'm shocked to hear that you thought you would be awesome at it. When have you ever thought you were gonna be bad at something?

Colleen

It's my confidence that gets me through life, Aaron.

Aaron

You must know that. No. I I need it. It's great. But

seriously, I thought I was gonna be awesome at go

Colleen

karting, because I'm just kind of intense, and I was so bad at go karting.

Aaron

Yeah.

Colleen

Like embarrassingly bad at go karting.

Aaron

Yeah. I mean, you weren't embarrassingly bad. You were within, like,

at least at your deviation. Yeah. Exactly. You weren't

Colleen

last. Oh, man.

Aaron

That was you know, we talked about skipping it. We were in the doldrums, and we're like, we gotta figure out our lives. Maybe we shouldn't go go karting. And instead, we skipped we skipped a lunch and then went go karting, and it was absolutely the right decision. These freaking things I think they said they go 40 miles an hour.

Like, you you put on helmets and, like, neck braces if that tells you how terrifying it is. And man alive, it is so much fun. And so like the first round, the first heat out, they call they call them heats and racing. I don't know if you know that. The first heat, everyone's like, yeah, I know how to drive.

I'm gonna be I'm gonna be so good at this, and everybody's pretty terrible. And then you come back in, and there's this, like, gallery where you can stand and watch other people, like, all of the rest of MicroComp friends, watch them drive. And you learn, like, oh, I gotta hit the brakes here, and I gotta turn here, and I gotta punch it here. And so the round 2, you get 2 rounds. Around 2, everybody goes in and they're like, alright.

I know what to do now. I'm gonna crush you nerds. And so round 2 was a lot. Round 2 was a lot better. Everyone did a lot better.

But so there are 8 people in a race, and my first time out, same same 8 people each time. So my first time out I landed 4th amongst my group, which I was like, yeah, pretty good. Like, at least I'm not, you know, as slow as Colleen, so that's good. And then the second time out Sure. The second time out, my personal time got better.

So I, like, improved by, you know, 5 tenths of a second or something, and I fell to number 7 in my heat. And so I got better, but everyone else got way better.

Colleen

Way better.

Aaron

Yeah. They were all studying a lot harder than I was. But, man, that was so fun.

Colleen

It was fun. I was second to last in my heat, but I had the guy who owns the race cars for fun. So, you know, that doesn't count. They were ringers.

Aaron

Yeah. Exactly. I did see, like, all the nerds, which was us in MicroConf. We had these, you know, helmets that, like, on the front were plastered the sizes, and so I'm, you know, embarrassed. I've got, like, an XL on my helmet.

And then I saw, like, some real specialty helmets that had, like, cool racing stickers and stuff. And I was like, those I wanna stay away from those guys. Those guys know how to drive.

Colleen

Yeah. They're they're the real go karters. Yeah. Not us.

Aaron

So, I mean, MicroConf wasn't just go karting, but that was that was a highlight. What else?

Colleen

That was a highlight

Aaron

for sure. That was pretty good. It was also weird, and maybe this is their whole plan. But once you get off the track, you're like they give you your results and you're like looking at them with all these, you know, 7 other people, and it's super immediate, like, bonding. Because you're like, oh, that was you that passed me at that spot?

And it's like, you all go and watch other people together, and then you're like, that was really good to to bond with people that we didn't know.

Colleen

Yes. I definitely am better in smaller groups, and it is nice when you have an icebreaker like that. Like, hey, we just raced around the go kart track 13 times. So I thought that was really, really effective at forming new relationships, making new friends.

Aaron

Speaking of, aren't you so glad that I forced you to go to dinners on both nights? You were gonna bail both nights on dinner. And I was like, no, man. You gotta come. And then what did you say after each dinner?

Colleen

I'm so glad I came to dinner.

Aaron

So good.

Colleen

I was so glad. The dinners were great. I was very glad both times. Like, you're right. I was gonna bail because, you know, this was like a we we had really long days.

Aaron

We did.

Colleen

I mean, usually at at, like, software conferences, people don't stay up that late drinking in the lobby. It's just a different vibe. Right?

Aaron

Yeah.

Colleen

But at this conference, you know, we had we were up late. Late for me. Okay. Not late for, you know, not 1 AM, but late for me.

Aaron

Late for old mom. But we also we also, you know, we had the post breakup hangover and the like, what are we gonna do with our business? And people are asking us, Oh, what does Hammerstone do? I'm like, I don't know. You tell me.

So, there was a lot of like emotional toil that was exhausting as well.

Colleen

There was.

Aaron

But dinner came, and I was like, listen, we we you've gotta go. And it was awesome.

Colleen

And it was awesome. You were right. Again, like, the small group encounters, when you're sitting with a group of 4 or 5 people, you really are able to form connections and get to know them. Unlike that 5 second handshake. Hi.

How are you? What's up? You know? Yeah. So I did feel that that was totally worth it.

It was it was a good call to push a little bit.

Aaron

Yes. Thank you. I'm glad we have that record. Both nights both nights we ended up in groups, of people, like, with whom we're Twitter friends. But for me, specifically, I hadn't met many I hadn't met many of them in real life, and I think that's the same for you.

Mhmm.

And so it was just so fun to be like, hey, I have, you know, interacted with you on Twitter for, in some cases, years, and now, like, we're friend friends. Now, you know, we used to be Twitter friends. Now we're just like friend friends. And that was that was so much fun. I really enjoyed that.

Colleen

Yeah. Me too. There were at least 2 people that I had, like, DM'd with on Twitter about random business stuff that I have never met that I met at MicroConf. So that was super cool. I was happy about that.

Aaron

Yeah. That was that was a blast. Beyond that, talks were great. You know, we missed a few because we were doing work. But the talks were great.

I really enjoyed, Patrick Campbell's. He blew through, like a 100 slides, but it was very, very good. And I also thought Rob's about hiring was quite good, quite good. Just like the titles and the mistakes he made and all of that kind of stuff. I found that to be quite helpful.

Colleen

Yeah. I agree. I enjoyed them both. I thought they were great. Great presenters, great talks, good content.

Aaron

And then I think that's it. There was a reception at the end, and then we both left on Wednesday. And then I got I got back last night, and then this morning, I did a webinar for PlanetScale. Just doing it all,

Colleen

man. Nice. Yeah. Well done. So we've

Aaron

got a few minutes before I'm being kicked out of my house. Do you wanna cover future stuff, or do we wanna save that for a future episode?

Colleen

You mean, like, future plans?

Aaron

Yeah.

Colleen

Yeah. I have we can do it. We got 4 minutes. Right? A couple minutes here.

Yeah. So I think the biggest takeaway is we had a crazy 2 weeks. Mhmm. Lots of emotional turmoil, upheaval, but in a really good way, because I think we've we've closed that loop. We have a plan.

We have an idea, and we're just gonna go down that road. So I think something we've talked about, which I guess we can say publicly to people who are still listening, is our goal is to have one paying customer for the new product by the end of May.

Aaron

Yeah. I keep wanting to say April, which is to say

April, and it

keeps stressing me out.

Colleen

Took me a second, which I think is a really, really valiant goal. I think what is you know, I'm reading Jason Cohen just put out that article. Everyone has been sending it to me about, like, why startups die. Like, how people you can have smart people who come in and they solve a problem. Like, they have an idea.

They talked to 3 people that said, yeah. This is a problem. This is a pain point. This needs to be solved. They make a good product to solve the problem, and yet the start up still dies.

And we are exactly in that window right now. Like, we have an idea. We have 3 people, at least, who have said this is a real problem. So I was reading that right before we got on the podcast to think about, like, how do we wanna approach this? Like, how do we get ahead of all of these issues?

So we give ourselves we could still fail but, like, we give ourselves the greatest chance of success. And I think it's just talking to people and talking to people. At this early stage, it's just talking to people.

Aaron

We've talked about this extensively privately, but I think the plan is you're gonna talk to as many people as will answer the phone in the next month. I am going to rapidly build something that, accurately represents our first hypothesis, and then we will iterate and change based on the people that you're talking to. But I think we have we have a point of view. We have something to say, and I'm gonna build that, and you're gonna talk to people to continue to refine that. But we can do that in we can do that in parallel.

Yeah. And the goal would be the end of May. We have someone who is not, someone who is not hoping for our success as a customer. I I mean, what We don't want we don't wanna fall into the trap. Yeah.

We don't wanna fall into the trap where people are like, oh, yeah. Sure. I like you. I'll give you some money. But we need someone that actually experiences this pain.

Colleen

But if you like us and you experience this pain, you can give us money.

Aaron

I will love that. Yes.

Yes. Doesn't just have to be enemies. Yeah.

Colleen

That is We're like That's

Aaron

a good point.

Colleen

We're like, you know, in the very, very beginning stages where we're clawing for all early customers.

Aaron

Yeah. So if you like us and wanna give us money, please reach out. For what? I can't tell you yet, but please reach out.

Colleen

There yet. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's a good a good, path forward, and we'll go and iterate and go and iterate.

Aaron

That sounds good to me. Hey. I'm glad we're still together.

Colleen

Me too.

Aaron

I'm glad we did it. Alright. We'll leave it there.