Mostly NPTM with Caleb Porzio & Daniel Coulbourne

Aaron

Welcome back to Mostly Technical fake Ian Landsman, who is also Caleb Porzio.

Caleb

Oh, dude. How did I not practice my impression since the last time I attempted?

Aaron

I don't know. You got a lot of feedback.

Caleb

Oh, I I did think a way to improve the impression is just to do a Seinfeld impression

Aaron

That is

Caleb

with Ian. Just be, like best way to yes. Be, like, no,

Aaron

Eren. No. Yes. I lost

Caleb

the perfect note. Ian impression.

Aaron

It's always squeaking. He's always, like, squeaking, and I'm

Daniel

really excited to say the next thing.

Aaron

He is, but he's also always holding back and letting me finish talking. So he's it's the perfect it's the perfect combo. He's always very excited, but he lets me finish. And welcome to the pod, mister Daniel Colbourne. Not holding back.

Not letting you finish. Carry on.

Caleb

Deac is in the hall.

Aaron

Yes. Yes. As they say. There are some people there are maybe 4 people that listen to this show that don't listen to y'all's show, but not this is probably just the 4 of them. So you 2 have a show together called No Plans to Merge, which you record sometime.

Caleb

We used to record it a lot.

Aaron

We used to record it a lot more.

Caleb

So yeah.

Aaron

Now it's just now it's just, whenever whenever the mood strikes you, which frankly is not often enough, which is why we show it. Never exist. Hate recording.

Caleb

But, yes, that's true. And Aaron, you I mean, like, this is kind of a full circle moment, Aaron Francis.

Aaron

Like Tell me. We're on your show.

Caleb

Mhmm. You, like, you were an all star listener of no plans listeners.

Aaron

Reply guy.

Caleb

He was a reply guy. I Mhmm. That's how I knew of your name. It was just, like, you know, like, certain people, like, Matt Swanson or whatever, like Mhmm. They just become a name that we know because, like, oh, yeah.

The this, like, listener replied this very good point and good response to this thing or whatever, and then, like, what was his name? And then eventually, we start kind of getting the name right, and

Aaron

Eventually, it sticks. And at this point, I think I'm I'm a reply guy. Exactly. We're just a reply guy. Reply guy.

We're just yes. I remember one of the funniest bits. This was back when I was building the shed quarters, and I was listening to, like like, all the episodes of no plans to merge, just back episodes to get through them all. And still to this day, one of the funniest bits is I think it was Caleb that was talking about meeting up with this billionaire guy. He's like, yeah.

He's this billionaire Christian guy, and Daniel says no such thing. And it just kept going. Barely acknowledged it. But they just said no such thing.

Caleb

Oh, that's

Aaron

one of my favorite bits.

Caleb

It's good.

Aaron

It's a good bet.

Caleb

Who the guy was.

Daniel

My mom, every once in a while, will, will message me a throwaway bit that Caleb didn't acknowledge, and she caught. And I was like, thank you, mother. Yeah. Glad you're listening very attentively.

Caleb

There is

Aaron

there is a lot of I do that too. I feel like Daniel has so many good throwaway bits.

Caleb

And I try to acknowledge them because, like, when you're talking to Daniel, this it can be a difficult thing. You know? Like, it's just it's like, are we gonna can we you know? And just the other day, I don't know if you got this, Daniel, but we're on a call, and he said, oh, it was some, like, deep Veggie Tales reference. And it was just you know, I just said something.

You know, it was, like, meet me in Saint Louis or something. It wasn't that, but something to that effect, and and he just, like, dropped it super quick. But I'm in the middle of, like, I'm already on the soapbox, and I just keep going. And I tried to work it back in the conversation to tell you that I knew about him. But this is talking to Daniel.

It's they're just they're loaded. You know?

Aaron

And they're and they're just, like the the best part is he doesn't give his own comments too much credit. Like, he doesn't he doesn't, like

Caleb

Mm-mm. Say it. He's not waiting for it yet.

Aaron

Big laugh. It's just like

Daniel

No. No.

Aaron

If you if you appreciated it, you'll doubly appreciate it. But if you missed it, you missed Like,

Caleb

so long

Daniel

as it's done. For you. It's like, I have a dopamine disorder that can only be fulfilled by saying this right now. Mhmm.

Aaron

I think I think in the last episode, Caleb said something like, yeah. I do do that. And Dana went

Daniel

doo doo.

Aaron

And that was it. He just he just whispered doo doo into the mic.

Caleb

Yep. It it that at the I mean, doo doo is one of those ones at this point. I think I recorded literally a podcast today.

Aaron

I listened to it this morning, and

Caleb

you said, doo doo

Daniel

doo. Yeah.

Caleb

And it's like, and in that split second,

Aaron

it's, like, do I acknowledge the doo doo? You gotta acknowledge it. You know?

Caleb

You gotta acknowledge it. You gotta

Aaron

at least acknowledge doo doo. Okay.

Caleb

So this is all true. Aaron, welcome to the show.

Aaron

Hey. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having me on, Mostly No Plans to Merge. It is good to be here.

I am honored. We have some topics. I know you guys are, like, you guys are freewheeling. You don't do topics, but I I got some topics.

Daniel

I got some topics. We I appreciate the discipline.

Aaron

Okay. We don't have to talk about them. I got some topics. I'm gonna give you a rundown, and then we can talk about any or none. But I got one.

We got to talk about any or some of these topics that you wanna talk about in any order. And then you can also throw out your own topics that we can intersperse because these are very these are very Aaron centric. I I gotta be honest. Okay. Here we go.

Topics are Arlinda, whose name is Kelsey, started last week. I went to Boise. I recorded a podcast in the KITT Studios, which is previously ConvertKit. A little Twitter x thing going on there. Steve was in the hospital for an entire week, and I'm sorry.

Lyricon is next week, and you're both speaking. So that's that's the list I have.

Daniel

You're doing something there too, aren't you?

Aaron

I am. Yes. I am I am not speaking, but I will be speaking if that makes sense. Mhmm.

Caleb

So why are you not speaking, Aaron?

Aaron

I'm not giving a talk.

Caleb

Yeah. I know. Why are you not giving a talk?

Aaron

I don't have I don't have it in me. I got too many kids.

Caleb

I'm really proud of you, Erin. Yeah. This is a

Daniel

very good move.

Caleb

How pumped are you? How pumped do you just feel like this is gonna be amazing?

Aaron

I feel so pumped. Literally, just going to hang out.

Caleb

I mean, you gotta MC, but you know.

Aaron

Yeah. But MCing is, like, it it's it's jazz. You know? You can't prepare anything. I don't know anything about jazz, but from what I understand, they don't prepare

Caleb

anything. Like MCing. Yep.

Aaron

Yeah. And so you just get up there and you just bebop, and you just, you know, you're like, hey. Hey. How's your father? How are we doing?

Hell, here we go. Next guy. And that's kind of it.

Caleb

You need to tell us, did you message Taylor?

Daniel

Did you shoot Josh's case?

Aaron

Reason this isn't Am I the am I the puppet master?

Daniel

You want a Krissy Knoll?

Caleb

There's no way that in a in a time period of Aaron's life where it's not, like, easy to block out a bunch of time to go travel somewhere Mhmm. It's in his backyard. Mhmm. Give it to us.

Aaron

Give it to us straight. Little suspicious, isn't it?

Daniel

Yeah. Suspect.

Aaron

Well, you know, Taylor and I Taylor and I talk. You know, we talk at, you know, maybe one message every month or so. So we're like Yep. We're we're super tight.

Caleb

In Taylor terms?

Aaron

That's a lot.

Caleb

That's a lot.

Aaron

That's a whole lot.

Caleb

You're annoying. Message him, and

Aaron

he'll respond with, yeah. And I'm like, I made it. He's like, yeah.

Caleb

We just had a fruitful conversation.

Aaron

So, you know, a while back, I heard he was checking out Dallas, and I messaged him and said, something like, I would love for Lyricon to be in Dallas, and I think he hit me with a thumbs up. So I guess you could say I'm a power broker.

Daniel

I don't know. Kingmaker.

Aaron

Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm pulling the strings back here. It did it is a little it is a it's in to my advantage, I must admit, that I do not have to travel anywhere.

Caleb

How brutal is it right now? Like, should we all be mad at you? Live through weather. Weather. Oh,

Aaron

I'm not gonna lie. It's gonna be pretty bad. It's gonna be pretty bad. Yeah. Okay.

It's gonna be bad. If you're, like, staying I think, Dave Hicking, producer Dave, friend of the pod Dave, is staying, like, 10 minutes 10 minute walk from the venue. He's like, yeah. I'm gonna walk. And I looked up the route, and it's, like, under, you know, a 6 lane highway, and it's gonna be literally a 105 degrees.

I'm kinda

Daniel

Well, then underneath the highway, it'll be a 175. Right?

Aaron

Yeah. Probably.

Caleb

Emissions.

Aaron

Yeah. We we have a little bit of a a heat dome going on here in Dallas. So it's one thing we have going for us is it doesn't get cool at night. So if it's hot during the day, it's gonna be hot at night. So that's awesome.

Daniel

Not like being hot at night.

Aaron

No. We love that. Yeah. So that rooftop bar, whatever, the after dark,

Caleb

I think it's

Aaron

on a rooftop bar. It's gonna be hot.

Caleb

So hopefully it's inside.

Daniel

Yeah. Yeah. You know, last year, we had to all go to the rooftop to escape the deafening noise of a band on

Aaron

each floor. True. We had to go to the rooftop and still shout in each other's faces.

Daniel

Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron

So we're gonna really have

Daniel

to do some volume management. So I'm gonna delegate to you to be on top of that.

Aaron

Yeah. So contrary to what you may believe, I don't know every proprietor of restaurants here in Dallas, and so I don't really have an in or an advantage.

Daniel

Well, no. But you know

Aaron

you know how to talk to people

Daniel

down there.

Aaron

I do. Yeah. That is a good point. I I

Caleb

I get shot good point.

Daniel

If I just approach.

Caleb

Although, you do not sound like you're from Dallas as far as Dallas accents that I know, which are are very few. But right? Like, you have a pretty mild Texas accent. Right?

Aaron

I appreciate that. That's what I'm going for. Yeah. Here in Dallas, we don't have a lot of accents, in my opinion. Out east, pretty pretty strong Texas accents.

All the west Texas. Yeah. And and out west as well. Out in Lubbock, you get you get a lot more accents. But here in Dallas, not not so much a thing.

We're big city folk. You know?

Caleb

Mhmm. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. This is all great news, Aaron Francis, about Lyricon.

Aaron

Yeah.

Caleb

Yeah. Music at Lyricon, it like, as a music person, you you're just trained to, like, hate the people who just wanna talk and don't wanna hear your music. Mhmm. But in a situation like that, it's like, I wish this could work, but just basically never played live music around a conference for me. You know?

Aaron

Yeah. Last year, I felt I felt so much secondhand embarrassment for the band that went on, like, in the venue. Yeah.

Caleb

Right. Everybody just, like, cleared the room.

Aaron

Walked out.

Caleb

So, like, oh, well, now we can't be in this room. Now

Aaron

we can't

Caleb

talk. So Yeah. And

Aaron

there was one guy, Brandon Baer from, whatever his fly whatever his service is. He, like, sat on the 3rd row and listened to the band, and I was like, good for you, Brandon. That's nice.

Daniel

Respectful. Yeah.

Caleb

Yeah. That's a good guy

Aaron

right there. Control. Yeah. That's a good guy. Yeah.

But, yeah, I was like I felt so much I had to leave out of secondhand embarrassment

Caleb

because

Aaron

I was like, I can't imagine. It was hard to imagine.

Caleb

I mean,

Aaron

I can. I've done it. I've given a talk to absolutely nobody, and it is it was traumatic,

Caleb

and so I don't wanna see this again. Oh, okay. Well, let's actually cover one of your topics.

Aaron

Oh, wow. Okay.

Caleb

Torchlight. No. No.

Aaron

No. I wasn't on the list. You're supposed to know her.

Caleb

We just have to follow-up. We just have to follow-up. Alright. But Aaron did send me he found the database.

Aaron

I found the database. It exists.

Caleb

Following this, Daniel? Did you hear about this torchlight Yes. Situation? Okay. Yeah.

Aaron

We found the deal. I wanna hear I wanna hear I wanna hear your, your thoughts on it because I think Caleb's crazy, but I found the database 36100 users in the database, which is a lot. That's that's better than a poke in the eye. Mhmm. So I think there is something that can be done there.

Oh, many tens of dollars.

Daniel

Very good.

Aaron

Yeah. So, like Yeah. Let's say

Caleb

I mean, these are better than just people on an email list because they're actually using your thing, and you can see how recently they've made API requests. Right? Yes. So let's say maybe could you convert 20% of these? To what?

To paying customers? No. No? Okay.

Aaron

I don't

Daniel

think so. Why?

Aaron

I just don't I don't know. I don't think people are gonna pay more than $5 for syntax highlighting.

Daniel

I think Caleb's argument from last week is correct, which is, if you run a business that makes money off of code and you're Mhmm. Posting documentation, whether that's open source, whether that's, like, I'm Century and these are my Laravel integration docs or whatever. Right? Like, those people want to not think about it and, have the best thing for some money is fine.

Aaron

So you're you're on team you're on team Caleb here.

Daniel

Why do you hate money, Aaron?

Aaron

Okay. We've already been over this.

Caleb

I do not love money because it is

Aaron

the root of all kinds of evil. But I I a strong like. I like it a lot.

Daniel

That kinds of is doing a lot of work.

Aaron

Isn't it? Yeah. I don't know if that's ESV or not. Yeah. That might be revisionist, actually.

Maybe it is

Daniel

actually the message. Evil. Yeah.

Caleb

I just wanna be clear, but I just wanted to follow-up so the listener could hear the numbers, and they can make their own decision. I'm still not sure it's, you know, it's a good idea at all, but I like Ian's thing. It's, like, just pay somebody else, go 5050. They do all the work, and then And now let them, like, make you money. Why not?

I've I've

Aaron

got a couple of people.

Daniel

I think you should.

Caleb

You think

Aaron

I should do that?

Caleb

Yeah. Why not? Partner with thunk. No. Don't partner

Aaron

with us. This is No. They don't wanna

Caleb

do it.

Daniel

There's not enough here for us. Daniel, you should

Aaron

you should do it, Thunk. I'll give you 50%.

Daniel

I don't think 50% is enough. But if you for for someone else who wants to do it

Aaron

other loser who doesn't need money like you do.

Caleb

I'd be

Daniel

for a, you know, for a 22 year old fresh out of, Internet college, Jeffrey Weis Internet College. That's a that could be a it could be a stream

Aaron

of anything. Yeah. Could be a thing. Yeah. I got a couple of yo dudes after Ian after Ian said that, you know, yo dude picked me.

Daniel

Dude, I yo dude ed Ian, by the way.

Aaron

After his

Daniel

thing, I yo dude ed him.

Aaron

What did you say? You wanna do it?

Daniel

No. I said we could do it. But then I also hit him with, like, a

Aaron

caveat of, like, I would need assurances. Yeah. It

Daniel

was funny. And he was like, okay.

Caleb

Yeah. But I should have you know that that day, I ripped torchlight out of the new project and built my own code mirror thing because I needed some stuff and Yep. Like, special stuff as you saw with, like, my talk, like Mhmm. Torchlight, whatever. And I I'm back to, like, I might have to I'm either writing a blade parser

Aaron

or using torchlight. Like, it's Oh, great.

Caleb

So just so you know this.

Aaron

Not fun, is it?

Caleb

It's, it's still very it's a good thing. It's good.

Daniel

There are other reasons for you

Aaron

to write a blade parser, Caleb, but that's that's neither here nor there. True.

Caleb

But, honestly, blade is your killer feature for Torchlight. It's obscure languages. That's really what's up. Like Blade, antlers, alpine Yeah. You can't find blade in prism, highlight JS, anything like that.

Yep. So Well,

Aaron

you wanna hear you wanna hear the technical reason why you can't because, the underlying highlighter, Shiki, is the only one that uses TextMate grammars because they're so freaking heavy. So, like, highlight JS and Prism and all that, they just use regex. It's just, like, best guess. But Shiki uses the TextMate grammars, which is what Versus code uses. So you're sitting on top of an entire ecosystem that is dedicated to, like, keeping this stuff up to date.

So that's just real trick.

Caleb

Of TextMate grammars. What is TextMate?

Aaron

TextMate is pre sublime text, I wanna say. Super old, not to be confused with just language. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. And for some reason, the TextMate grammars have just become the standard for, like, syntax highlighting, and so Versus code uses them, as well. And they're they are in in and of themselves, gnarly regexes, but there's there's a lot more power. They have, like, snippets and embeddings.

And so, like, if you have PHP that has HTML embedded in it, a text make grammar can handle that, whereas a, prism or highlight has, trouble with that. Gotcha. Yeah. Oh, wow. That's interesting.

Caleb

Okay. Good to know. Yeah. D h h, when he was switching over to Neovim or something, he was like, I don't he either uses TextMate still or needed to move over all his TextMate. That was, like, his thing.

It was, like, has to be tech. And I was like, I thought TextMaker was an editor, but now it sounds like configuration or something. We've cracked the code.

Aaron

Yeah. Something like that.

Daniel

Okay. Something like that. What what's the, what what's that Rust text editor? Zed Zed Zed?

Caleb

Zed. Zed.

Daniel

Yeah. Is that gonna happen?

Caleb

It's happening.

Daniel

It but is it gonna happen?

Caleb

Oh, no. You

Aaron

don't think it's gonna happen? I don't I don't know anything about it.

Caleb

I mean, you don't have you heard of it, Aron?

Aaron

I've heard of it, but I don't know anything about it.

Caleb

It looks sick, and Thorsten Ball or Thorsten Bell? Thorsten Ball That's the

Aaron

only reason I've heard of it is because of him.

Caleb

He's, like, the only one, like, left writing, like, good long form blog posts that are super deep and interesting on the Internet.

Aaron

So Yeah. Him him and and Aaron Francis.

Caleb

And Aaron Francis.

Daniel

Yeah. That

Aaron

is short. That's, like, 25 100 words.

Daniel

Guy draws 2 concentric circles and thinks he's

Caleb

Got him. I should okay. Thorsten Ball. Yeah. So Zed is, like, you know, whatever.

It's a Rust editor. I think it's basically people who adore Sublime, but Sublime's old, whatever. It's, like, we want something really fast. And and Versus Code is is, my experience with Versus Code is getting worse because I think some of my extensions have memory leaks. Mhmm.

Do you guys ever run across this?

Aaron

I do think I've never used these cases.

Daniel

Memory leaks.

Caleb

Do you use PHP Storm?

Aaron

I do.

Caleb

Yeah. Okay. Well, that's slow anyway.

Aaron

Yeah. That's just one big extension with a memory leak. I don't know if

Caleb

that's right. But whatever. I have to restart Versus code, like, every 3 or 4 days, which is wild. So I could see the mounting demand for Zed personally. But it doesn't have a lot of the things that I oh, here's my killer feature that I I won't use Zed until it has, Emmet.

You guys use Emmet?

Aaron

Who's Emmet?

Daniel

I, don't use Emmet, but it seems like almost everyone does.

Caleb

So here's the thing about Emmet, Daniel, because I used to think that Emmet was and

Aaron

I thought this was cool,

Caleb

was just, like, CSS expansions. You know? Like, you type, like, div.bggray and hit tab, and it creates a div wrapping tags and classbggray, and you can do, like, attributes and do, like, times 5 and get 5 of them. That's Emmet. Aaron, you're familiar with Emmet?

Aaron

No. Never heard of this. Spent around forever. It's really cool. It's really cool.

Caleb

It's I don't

Daniel

know if you have someone like Caleb who uses it well, use it. It is, like, a little magical.

Caleb

Mhmm. Emmet's great. But here's here's why Emmet is why I can't live without Emmet right now, and I'm curious what you guys do. Emmet has, like, extra commands when you're working with HTML. So you can, like, have a section of code and wrap it in a div, or you can be on a tag, and I have it all mapped to keys, but I hit, like, m r, and then because that's, like, emmet and then r, and then it'll rename that tag in the opening and the close.

I can m backspace, and it'll remove the opening and the close. I can m o, and it'll highlight the outer edge of that div. I can hit m I, and it'll highlight the inner div. So these are all things that, like, at this point, I can't edit HTML without. Like, I feel like a dummy.

What do you guys do for this? Are you, like, if you need to rename a div, how are you renaming a div?

Daniel

I'm text editing.

Caleb

Yeah. So you're just, like, finding the closing div?

Aaron

Well,

Daniel

I mean, like, you know, I'm doing my base, like, a lot of times it's, like, you know, just command d to get the next div.

Caleb

50 divs.

Daniel

Yeah. Right. If it's super nested, then I'm just finding the closing div. Yeah. Usually, I'm collapsing first.

Okay. Right.

Caleb

To the last minute and change it. Yeah. So I had these skips collapsing. Yeah. That's pretty cool.

When it's collapsed.

Aaron

PHP store. I have I have 2 options. 1 is go to the opening tab tag and just rename it, and it automatically renames the closing tag.

Daniel

Oh, it keeps them here.

Aaron

It keeps them matched. Isn't that great? The other thing that I will sometimes do is inside like, if I'm inside a deeply nested thing, you can hit option up arrow, and it will do that, start to highlight group by group by group. So outer situation. Goes to the next tag out, next tag out.

Yeah. And then once I get to the entire spot highlighted, then I just hit up arrow, and I'm at the beginning tag. So if I'm, like, deep in and I don't wanna reach for the mouse, I'll do option up, up, up, up, release option, hit up, and then rename the tag. Cool.

Caleb

And then

Aaron

it renames the bottom one.

Caleb

And do those same shortcuts work for, like, a PHP, like, function or something? Mhmm. Yeah. That's awesome. Outward, like, an if statement Yep.

The function, and it's all the same keys. Yep. Exactly. That's great. It's good.

It's good stuff. I love it. Yeah. That's something I've tried to, like I wanna bring this mapping to other languages as well, and I have, like, MR and PHP to rename symbol and in JavaScript and in HTML, but all the other ones are just too different. Like, Versus Code doesn't have a good, like, balance inside of PHP.

You know? Have I?

Daniel

So. I must have talked on on the show at some point about, the my rename, my great complaints about, like, smart rename. But, like, if you have, like, I don't know, like, I use many different casings. Right? So, like, whatever you get your snake cases for

Caleb

Oh, yeah.

Daniel

For rat makers and your, kebab cases and your and your your camel cases and your

Aaron

title cases. If you have all those things in a file,

Daniel

there should be a way to, like, command d, select, select, select, select all of them, and then start typing. And then when you stop typing, analyze the thing you typed and then, like, re case it for the appropriate context. You know what I'm saying?

Caleb

I very much agree.

Aaron

So it's like so like

Daniel

if it's like, my first thing. Right? So like in one place, it's camel case my first thing and another place is my underscore first underscore thing. I wanna rename it to my second thing, but in all of the places have it cased in the same way that it was cased style.

Caleb

Where it was. I have the sidebar layout for the Flux site right now that's just getting massive, so there's all these a tags. And you know how, like, to detect the current thing, you have, like, request is. So you have h ref, request is, then I have another one that I don't remember what that does, and then the title of the thing. And the title matches the route name.

It just has title case. You know? So I'm constantly going, like, d d d d change. And then depending on if I have, like, you know, finding supports different casing, it may have accidentally highlighted the upper case title, and then I just wipe out the upper case. You know?

Or it's Gibson. I have to do it separately. So or like you've talked about this about, like,

Daniel

any, like, 2 word route. Right? Like, route resource, like, whatever, like, / The API. Worksites/ worksites. Right?

And so it's like work dash sites, but then the thing that you're passing in will be actually like worksite camel case, you know, something like that.

Caleb

Yep. This is good.

Aaron

This is good audio content. I gotta admit. Talking about the different casings of of variables, people are definitely seeing this in their mind's eye.

Caleb

This dude editor talk is literally the most relatable developer talk ever.

Aaron

And, like, I am so basic, though. That's the problem.

Daniel

Here's the direction AI can go next. This is my whole thing is that like AI is actually like the only person qualified to rename stuff for me. True. Like this, right? Like they, they like the, there's no rejects you can write that makes it possible.

Aaron

I thought

Daniel

about it all the way. It's impossible. So AI could do it. And so the thing and I feel like cursor might go this way at some point. Like, they might actually make the AI text editing experience good enough.

Right? But I feel like, right now AI is really good at like I completed a line. Now do that 10 more times. Right. Like I created a route.

Now make another route.

Caleb

Exactly. Right. Yes.

Aaron

What's not good at is like I edited one route in

Daniel

a list of a 100. Now apply that same edit to all the other lines

Caleb

you

Aaron

know this

Caleb

is my life do you use supermaven what do you guys use for AI stuff you use nothing Aaron

Aaron

I use nothing

Daniel

just nothing okay

Caleb

no you use copilot or anything

Aaron

yeah you use any yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

Daniel

yeah I pay my subs $50

Caleb

Okay. People are loving Supermaven because it's super

Aaron

fast. Supermaven.

Daniel

Isn't everyone liking Claude? Isn't Claude the new

Caleb

Claude? Well, Claude's awesome. I've I've

Aaron

chatted with Claude, but in the browser all

Caleb

the time, but it's a browser only situation.

Daniel

Well, no. I think everyone's using Claude in cursor now.

Aaron

I think

Daniel

that's the new that's the new shiz. And that's probably what's

Caleb

up, but philosophically, I can't use cursor yet.

Aaron

I know. I can't

Caleb

use cursor yet.

Aaron

Because you haven't made a

Daniel

problem yet?

Caleb

Fine, but it's, like, he just wrapped Versus code. So Uh-huh. And Microsoft doesn't care, but

Aaron

I don't know if they this is a wrap this

Caleb

is a This is a wrap for us. Thing. Yeah. No. I know.

We don't have to go down this road. I'm just saying. I'm at least gonna let, like, at least gonna wait out of principle.

Daniel

Dude, just think about, like, Caleb Porzio's make Claude awesome or make,

Aaron

what was it what was it even called?

Daniel

Cursor awesome.

Caleb

Cursor awesome. Yeah. And it feels like it would be really heavy. I don't know. Whatever.

There's other reasons I'm not using cursor. Are you using cursor?

Daniel

I used it for a sec, but, like,

Aaron

I didn't see the value. But now people are talking about this command k feature, and I'm like, oh, maybe this is the move.

Caleb

And that's what you were describing. It's, like, you can I just wanna hit a button and then type into a thing of command, like, rename this to this? Even in just plain language

Daniel

That's what command 2 does.

Caleb

Okay. And it's, like, we know the context. We're gonna suggest the change.

Daniel

Yeah. And so then the other thing with with cursors chat that you can do, which is really cool, is in the chat you can, like,

Aaron

you can say file colon and reference a file

Daniel

in your thing. So it's like, hey, do this like it's done in this view.

Caleb

Oh, that's so And

Daniel

so and you it can have up to, like, code base level context, but you can also, like, specify certain files for it to use as context and stuff.

Aaron

That's sweet, dude.

Daniel

It's really cool.

Caleb

Supermaven is dumb as rocks. It's fast, and it's, like, really I do like it. Like, I got rid of Copilot ages ago, but it's dumb. It it, like there's so many times where you're, like, you're just copying the you're just referencing the other thing on this page and not using your brain at all.

Aaron

It's,

Caleb

like, clearly, I would not want that. I want to adapt this to, you know, various about.

Aaron

Yeah. I probably won't use any of the, like, the cursor. I'm not gonna switch I'm not gonna switch editors.

Caleb

That would be a big shift for you. So that

Aaron

would be Well,

Daniel

but it's it's just Versus Code. Right? Like, if you're already in Versus Code.

Aaron

Yeah. Well, and that's your folly. But, like, yeah, if you're already in Versus Code, you can sort it's sort of like a lateral shuffle. Yes. But I won't I'll I'm standing with Caleb on anti rappers, so I won't use it.

Yeah. Do you and, do you and boss

Daniel

man Chris ever just, like, get in a Zoom call

Aaron

and talk about PHP storm? No. No. You missed that. Are we

Caleb

the only 2 people that use it? You're, like, 2 people I respect? Only 2 people who use Versus code in the Laravel community. Everybody uses PHP storm.

Aaron

Like Josh Siri uses it, but he comes from a JavaScript background. So what do you expect? Yeah. You know?

Caleb

Yeah. Right. Well, Jeffrey Wade declared it, like, the editor to use. Like, he was like, alright. I'm done.

Like, it's PHPStorm.

Aaron

Oh, yeah. That's right. I think Christophe Rumble has a course maybe on making He does. Storm awesome or something. He does.

Caleb

Yeah. That's a cool name.

Aaron

It's a cool name. Yeah. Yeah. It is. I like that.

This is content name.

Caleb

I am not upset about it. Content's more the merrier.

Aaron

K. We're we're understanding more of the nuance of, Caleb's inner business and rappers. But renames are yeah. No rappers.

Caleb

Renames? Fine. Yeah.

Aaron

But content is okay. Alright. I'm in trouble.

Daniel

I guess the the argument there is you were never gonna learn PHP Storm. So Never. Yeah.

Caleb

Yeah. Honestly, he did message me. He was, like, I wanna create a PHP Storm course, you know, pattern, whatever. And I was, like, great. Whatever.

It's fine. Love it.

Aaron

Can we can we talk about make Versus Code awesome? Is that on the table?

Caleb

Yeah. Sure.

Aaron

How is that doing?

Caleb

This is my torch light.

Aaron

Yeah. Do you keep that do you keep that alive?

Caleb

I feel like I still see people talk about it. Yeah. I do because, it's be it's, you know, it has the patina of a course that has sat for a long time, and Patina. And the, you know, the the trend is bam. It's, like, we're just skating off rock bottom.

There are $0 days

Aaron

in a

Caleb

row, but I it still makes, like if I do a if I do a Thanksgiving, what do you call that? Black Friday deal

Aaron

Mhmm.

Caleb

Situation. If I just go into ConvertKit, look at that that list, and just do the bare minimum to it Mhmm. I can eke out, like, 20 grand, 15 for sure, from Make You Just Got Awesome for the year.

Aaron

That's a good eke. Yeah. That's so bad. It still is, like, something.

Caleb

When you

Aaron

say eek, you you gotta, like, you gotta bring your eek number down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're not a man of people if you're eking out 20 grand.

Yeah.

Caleb

Nobody ekes out 20 grand. Yeah. I guess, let's say 15 grand. Not better, probably at this point.

Daniel

We come on here with our backwards hats, Caleb, and we're expecting people to relate to us. We can't just start, like, eking out 20 grand.

Caleb

So okay. And I think the only reason it ever makes any sales is because I have it in my Twitter bio. If it's true. Yeah. Otherwise, like, it would get 0 traffic, except for Josh Siri.

He

Aaron

Josh Siri still talks about it.

Caleb

Yeah. The only person who's ever, like, given it love.

Aaron

But No.

Caleb

I mean, people have given it love, but the thing is I still think it is such a killer course. That's why I keep it around, because I just want other people to have access to it. Like, all that Emmett stuff, like, there's just so many things that, I don't know that I feel like I went to hell and back on.

Aaron

And You you make screencasts and stuff and you do conference talks. So, like, people get to

Daniel

see your pretty cool looking editor set up

Caleb

Mhmm.

Daniel

Fairly often. And so being able to just have an answer to their question about, like, what theme is that Yeah.

Aaron

That forces them to give you money is, like, great. That's great. This is such a great landing page. I'm just looking at it right now.

Caleb

This is this is good.

Aaron

This holds up. It's got good, it's got good patina, as

Daniel

I might say.

Caleb

Good. I I mean, I gave that this is the best example of me not being a designer just wrestling with something for ages until it looks okay. You know?

Aaron

Just, like good.

Caleb

Nonstop, but, yeah, it looks pretty crappy on a really wide monitor. So if

Aaron

you're eking out if you're eking out, if you're scraping by, if you're barely making it

Caleb

I'll plug it into more real numbers. I could, like,

Aaron

get the, like, what

Caleb

if we made in a month and and, like, this month, and it's probably, like Yeah.

Aaron

Give us this month. Give me give me July. And then give me and then give me, like, year to date.

Daniel

Keeping my mind that it was too hot to work in Europe in July.

Caleb

That's true. Okay. Now this course might be doing

Aaron

alright. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. What the hell? What?

Is this Josh Siri? This is nuts. Unless I must be missing something.

Daniel

In the past like $80 in July.

Aaron

He's eking out 50 k. Yeah. This is crazy.

Caleb

In the past month, it's made $35100.

Aaron

What?

Caleb

What?

Aaron

Come on. Hey. Come on.

Caleb

So you're In in sleeping buffalo, that's

Daniel

$10 this year.

Aaron

That's enough. That's more than your house payment. Cap.

Caleb

I I almost wanna, like, share my screen on this thing.

Daniel

Is it fixed?

Caleb

Something happened. I'm making money on this thing. You didn't even know it. Okay.

Aaron

Look at this.

Caleb

I'm getting a screenshot in our mostly NPM, NPTM thing, and you can explain it to the users.

Aaron

Okay. What happened here?

Caleb

Dude, I

Daniel

gotta look at

Aaron

this thing. Is this real? See if this is just Josh.

Caleb

He I gave him an affiliate code, so I think I could actually see how many people you Dude,

Aaron

you told

Caleb

me that.

Aaron

But okay.

Caleb

Folks for looking. Guys.

Aaron

Dude, this is that's

Daniel

When did you get everyone

Aaron

in the affiliate code?

Caleb

That the date was the fateful day of Tuesday, July 2nd.

Daniel

Alright. Look at your messages, Josh.

Aaron

Yeah. What was I doing on July 2nd?

Caleb

Dude, I bet it's Josh Siri. I bet he's just Flash. And then the date so July 3rd was $444 that day.

Aaron

Yeah. Number number go up here. This is crazy. Like, you

Caleb

so you could see this graph, folks, that's literally just, like, bottom bottom bottom bottom. Fruitful, full,

Aaron

fat, little, like Sustained.

Caleb

Yeah. Sustained. Revenue that is

Daniel

That's crazy.

Aaron

Wow. Dude, well Alright. So scope this down scope this down to just July, and then give us the number because all I see is a graph. So what did you what did you make in July off of this course?

Caleb

Okay. Just July. So July, was $45100. Wow.

Daniel

You're gonna eke out $60 on this course.

Aaron

You're gonna eke it out, man.

Caleb

Okay. So I've always felt like this has not I niched it down to keep it niched, because of the reasons to keep it niched.

Aaron

Self fulfilling prophecy. You had sit down to keep it niched. To keep

Caleb

it niched. Mhmm. And and I think that was the right move. Mhmm. But it has, I've always been, like, man, like, this could conquer, like, the Internet.

It's Versus Code. It's, like, the widest thing, and there's, like, there are some courses, some good courses, but they're very just, like, you know, if somebody was, like, alright. I'm gonna make the Versus Code course. I'm gonna hire a marketer. I'm gonna research it.

I'm gonna have everything you would need where this is just opinions and, like, zest. You know?

Aaron

I'm gonna start a I'm gonna start a

Daniel

business that's like a bundle, a course bundle business where I bundle up courses like screencasting and Versus Code and other things that are, like, sort of general wider programming audience approved, and I'll just keep 50%. You guys interested? Just, do it anyway. Screencasting course is a video code course.

Aaron

Sounds like a rapper to me, so fill this out.

Daniel

Well, no. It'll have

Aaron

it'll be a rename also.

Caleb

Wow. Loophole. I have decided just real quick based on our last con one of our conversations, Aaron. Mhmm. If I got money, it's okay.

I know you were, like, well, what if you get money? Is it fine? If I get money, it's not as good, but, like, you can wrap me if your success pays

Aaron

me. Yeah. Great.

Caleb

I'm good. Love that. Philosophically, dear. Go for it. Just kick it back.

You know? Kick kick it up. So okay. So make this code awesome, I thought was dead. It is not dead, in fact.

Dead. Oh, I was supposed to get I partnered with somebody for 10% on it. Yeah. So every year, I cut this guy a check for, like, $2. Not anymore.

Wanna stop because I do all the support. He does nothing. I wanna buy him out.

Aaron

It's not

Daniel

how that oh, you could buy him out. Yeah. I should have bought him out

Caleb

last year.

Daniel

3 months ago

Aaron

now. True. Mhmm.

Caleb

Now I can't in good conscience buy him out for $5 or something.

Aaron

Just buy him out based on our rolling 12 month average right now.

Daniel

True.

Caleb

But Problem is he's my brother-in-law.

Aaron

Oh. In law, though. In law.

Caleb

In law.

Aaron

Yeah. Yes. Maybe talk

Daniel

to your, maybe talk to your relative. See if you can get

Aaron

a divorce going or something. Oh. Oh, yeah.

Caleb

Just for the paperwork. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you should talk

Aaron

to your relative, but not probably not for divorce, but, hey, Versus code still cooking.

Caleb

Versus code still cooking. And to answer your question, yeah, I mean, I love it, so I want it to exist, but we could probably do something more with it especially now. I don't know. Gotta do something. Gotta do something.

I should figure out where the traffic is coming from. Is it from the job?

Aaron

Step 1.

Caleb

Did somebody else you know, like,

Daniel

you should give Olivia a referral code.

Caleb

Okay. Referrer. Make Versus Code awesome has all yeah. Alright. We'll look at the affiliates.

You you guys could talk about something else while I look. This is this is officially no plans to merge where, like, somebody somebody just goes off and looks something up

Daniel

while the other research while

Aaron

the other person feels. Us,

Caleb

or Yeah.

Daniel

Vampamp. Perfect.

Aaron

This is this is way outside of the very strict topical format of mostly technical.

Caleb

We're gonna get to your topics, Aaron. Aaron, I

Daniel

canceled most of my client work for the week. I am gonna have a good week.

Aaron

That's great.

Daniel

Leading up to Laracon, I

Aaron

so last week was a was a hell week.

Daniel

I did all of

Aaron

the work plus all of the work plus all of the work.

Daniel

You hate it when that happens.

Aaron

On 3, like sort of in 3 different arenas. I did all of the work.

Daniel

And then coming into this week I was like, oh, but I still have

Aaron

to do all of the work in one of those arenas.

Daniel

And I don't know if there's enough me to go around.

Aaron

And so I just I talked to talk to a client. I said, can I do nothing this week and next week and just talk to you

Daniel

in 2 weeks instead of just doing nothing? I said, no problem.

Aaron

For all this talk about being in the arena, it sure is nice to get out of the arena, isn't it?

Caleb

Dude,

Aaron

you would nothing like showing up to a Monday where you were supposed to be on 6 hours of pairing calls before Laracon and just be like, you know what I gotta do today? Record podcast. No. Work on my slides.

Caleb

That real ticket.

Aaron

Man, I love canceled plans. Best kind of plans. Canceled plans. The best canceled plans of my son. Somebody's like, oh, I'm so sorry.

We can't do this. I'm like, oh, darn. That's, that's too bad. Because, 1,

Caleb

you get the you get the

Aaron

credit for not being canceled, guy, but, 2, you get to stay home.

Caleb

True. It's the best. I wonder if this is a trait. This I don't think this is shared by everybody. But, like, even if it's a good thing, a 100% of the time, I will be elated that something is canceled.

Aaron

Yes. Even if it's a good thing. I am Even if it's a good thing. Grilled to death to stay home.

Daniel

There's a guy who, a friend of mine just Not

Caleb

everyone's like that. A friend

Daniel

of mine just started detailing cars, and, he asked if he could detail my car, and

Aaron

I was like, sure. Yeah.

Daniel

So I'm like paying this guy less than his normal rate to detail my car, and he's canceled it like 3 times. I'm like, I don't don't care. But I keep getting apologetic text messages. It's like, look. I was I'm sitting in my house now.

I was gonna be sitting in my house then. Nothing has changed.

Aaron

I don't really need my car details. Like, I

Caleb

don't care. This is for you, dude.

Aaron

Alright. Did you find the numbers, Caleb? What do you got?

Caleb

I don't know how to use gumroad. I swear I sent

Aaron

Josh. I think for so long, and you came up with nothing.

Caleb

Nothing. Well, I I I realized I had to just cut bait, but I I feel like I am 73% sure that Josh was tweeting about make Versus Code awesome and said something about I should get an affiliate link or something, and I was, like, you made one, sent it to him. But maybe I didn't. So bummer for Josh.

Aaron

That sucks for Josh. He's really driving traffic.

Caleb

Josh is in a weird spot because everybody's, like, oogling over his stuff and is, like, how do you do that? And he's, like,

Aaron

oh, content creation. Like, I should be telling everybody, but, like, I got it

Caleb

all from this course. Mhmm. So it's this weird thing, but I'd say he's he's towed the line, like, really well. Mhmm.

Aaron

Where he,

Caleb

like, gives some tips and stuff, but then says, like, I got it all from this course. Go buy the course. You know?

Daniel

Yeah. It is a

Aaron

it's a delicate balancing act to be

Daniel

respectful on the Internet. You know, we, credit where it's due to Matt Stauffer. I feel like that was something that we talked about a lot at Titan was like, give credit words do. That was actually a 5 minute geek show episode. Give credit where it's due.

And it was like 5 minute.

Aaron

Forgot about those words. Yeah. Yeah. Is a throwback. It was, but it was like,

Daniel

it was like a perennial topic in the Titan slack of just, like, how and when is it appropriate to give credit? Right? And it was like, it was almost like a science at Titan of, like

Caleb

Yeah.

Daniel

Managing credit, you know?

Caleb

And I was just, like, tearing around like a Tasmanian devil, and he's just constantly, like,

Aaron

you just knocked over the face. You just, you know Yeah. And I'm like, ideas, ideas.

Daniel

But I I kinda get it

Aaron

now where it's like like it because, yeah, we were both sort

Daniel

of just like running wild. We were young and trying to do a thing, you know? But, like, I can imagine now if, like, if people who work for me were out there just like, I don't know, like, repurposing Aaron Francis content or something. Yeah.

Caleb

Oh, yeah.

Aaron

I'd be like, yo, you have to stop.

Caleb

Like, you would have to

Aaron

do this. You can't

Daniel

just do this.

Caleb

First to do that. Yeah. Very different. Please don't do that. Yeah.

Daniel

Different people. Jacob, please, draw some concentric circles and write a blog post.

Caleb

Right. I mean,

Aaron

all you got out of the post was the circles are good.

Caleb

Well, they change

Daniel

the size too. Yeah. Yeah.

Caleb

I mean, for real, I'm like, this is the the circles made I mean, the content's good, but the

Aaron

circles. The the circles really made it.

Caleb

How did you make

Daniel

the circles?

Aaron

This is like the thing with What did you use? Excalidraw.

Caleb

Is that right? Okay. It's like the income

Daniel

and expenses thing too. Right?

Caleb

Yeah.

Daniel

It's like the same problem. Exactly. It's like you can decrease your expenses or you can increase your income or ideally do both. Right? It's like, oh, you can decrease your inputs or increase your outputs.

Ideally both. Ideally do both.

Caleb

Yes. Correct. And there's

Aaron

I mean, so

Caleb

is it like, my my big fascination with the expenses income thing is that there's a hidden asymmetry where if you, like yeah. You could make more. But if you spend less, you actually decrease your need for your life, so you need less to retire. Like, so it actually is a double win at least. Is there something with being online, or, like, I guess, things outside of your control?

There's, like, an asymmetry, you know, if we're mapping it onto income and expenses.

Aaron

I don't know, because I don't know if I fully follow the first example about expenses being a double win.

Caleb

Yeah. I mean, I don't know I don't know if you care for me to ex you know, like, if you if you wanna make 10 more $1,000, you can get a $10,000 raise, and now you have $10,000 more dollars. Or you can spend $10,000 less k. On, like, groceries or something. Right?

And then you get $10,000.

Aaron

Correct.

Caleb

But when you've done the less, you now need $10,000 less in perpetuity for your life. Oh, I see. Yes. So it actually, like, pays you in a compounding way when you when you increase your the money you have by spending less.

Daniel

I think it's a little, little fakey because you're assuming that, by needing $10,000 less right now, I'm gonna continue not needing that $10,000.

Aaron

But you're not giving me

Caleb

That's a given. Yeah.

Daniel

But you're not giving me the same thing, which is, like, if I get an extra $10,000, I continue to keep having that $10,000 every year forever.

Caleb

Right. And but for most people, if you're just working, like, a job

Aaron

and you're not, like,

Caleb

entrepreneurially expanding in life, like Mhmm. It's generally, like, that $10,000 raise isn't mapped to, like,

Daniel

you're gonna take it back next year.

Caleb

Right. But what I'm saying is but okay. You get the $10,000 raise. In perpetuity, you have, like, an extra $10,000, but you didn't change how much you spend. Uh-huh.

Mhmm. Yeah. I'd have to figure out if the math works. You might be right, Daniel. We will see.

Daniel

I mean, it got you where you are now. Got me where I am. So maybe it's a useful fiction. Yeah.

Aaron

We do love a useful fiction.

Caleb

Uh-huh. Those can be extremely helpful. Yeah.

Aaron

A polite a polite fiction goes a long way.

Caleb

Spend more. Similarly, expose yourself to more things that are outside your control.

Daniel

Yeah.

Aaron

No. Yep. No. That doesn't map. I don't like that.

Caleb

That is it. Yeah. How are you feeling about that post Eren, like, philosophically in your life?

Aaron

Great. Feel great about it. Feel like it was one of my best.

Caleb

And where did it come from? Where did it come from?

Aaron

Excalidraw. I did. I did,

Caleb

get down.

Aaron

If you actually if you go to the site and you toggle dark and light mode, I did every drawing twice

Caleb

or I

Daniel

No way.

Aaron

Every drawing twice. That's very hard for you.

Caleb

There's a dark

Aaron

and light version. Yeah.

Daniel

It's kind of a running bit.

Aaron

See, it is a real bit. This is like if you would just spend less like now. Now you're doing dark

Daniel

and light mode in perpetuity. Oh, yeah. You just got the first time.

Aaron

Now you

Daniel

wouldn't have to do it every time.

Aaron

Steve and I actually talked about, are we doing dark and light mode for every course from now on? I'm like,

Caleb

I guess we are.

Daniel

Yeah. You're hoes.

Aaron

Yeah. Too bad. That is wild. Comes from personal feelings. Like, I feel that in my own life.

Like, the more that I pay attention to, the less that I feel good about what I'm doing or what I can do. And also seeing a lot of people on the Internet be mad about stuff that they don't ever do anything about. And I'm like, this is just a waste of energy, and it's a waste of, like, you you could be changing things within your control, but instead you're worried about stuff that is way outside of your control, and you're using up your finite limited resources of caring, you

Caleb

know? Yep. Ismaila.

Daniel

Aaron, one thing that I think this show needs is for you to have a little bit of a poker arc. Because I think Poker arc. You need to have a poker arc because Landsman has so much to give you there. Yeah. And I think you did it.

But there's this thing in poker that's, you know, like poker is all about just like doing things that have a slight edge many, many times. Yeah. Right? So it's like you you take a situation where it's like, yeah, I have like a 2% edge in this situation. If I do it a 100 times then I should win 2% on my money, you know?

Aaron

Right.

Caleb

Yeah.

Aaron

And

Daniel

there's like this human frailty, which is that when something like doesn't go according to plan, you tend to think that you may or when something doesn't pay off, even though you only have a 2% edge, you tend to think that you failed.

Caleb

Right? Correct.

Daniel

And so it's like

Aaron

like this results oriented thinking of like even if you put

Daniel

in the right work and did took the correct actions that more often than not will result in the good thing. It feels like you're doing bad because

Caleb

Mhmm.

Daniel

I didn't win this time.

Aaron

Mhmm. You

Daniel

know? And I think, like, that concept of, like, like, I'm not

Aaron

in the results business, and just, like, I'm in the action business. I'm in

Daniel

the job of, like, take the small actions that I can be responsible for. And, you know, these actions are designed to influence the results as much as possible in the ways that I want, and all of the other ingredients in the soup of results are not mine. I just stick my rock in the soup and see what I get, you

Aaron

know. That, like, that little bit

Daniel

of philosophy from poker, I think has, like, done me so well in the past, like, year or 2 of just like, yeah, just you just do what you can do. You do the thing that is yours to do. And sometimes you get aces versus kings, and that's just fine. You know?

Aaron

I like that, Daniel. This is a philosophy I could get behind. I may have to get into poker just for the content because that I I I fully agree with that. Yeah. Your your job is to put it out there, and if it goes terribly, well, that's too bad.

If it goes right, I'll that's great.

Daniel

To continue with the poker metaphor like then to make it up in volume. Right?

Aaron

Yeah. Right. It's like

Caleb

you just some signal

Daniel

as long as you have an edge.

Aaron

You just have to repeat as often as possible. You have to play as many hands as

Daniel

you can play. If you're confident you have an edge in this game, like, the more hands you can play, the more you can earn. Right?

Aaron

That's interesting.

Caleb

Yeah. Do you think

Aaron

I have an edge in this game?

Caleb

Yes. Well, the the dark mode screencast is, like, a good example of of, like, something like that. It's probably hard to measure, so maybe it's not. But it feels to me, like, not having lenses in your glasses that you used to not have, like, the little touches Mhmm. Are those sort of those are, like, undeniably edges because people talk about them.

They reference them. Like, it it signals that you care about stuff and quality and blah blah blah. Just doing many of those things, to me, that's the, like, the little poker edge is that.

Aaron

You know what's interesting about both of those examples? The the dark mode and the lensless glasses? Well, the lensless glasses was born out of practicality because my old setup, it was just just so many reflections. Now it's not as bad, so I don't use them. But both of those things are somewhat useful, but somewhat also just sticks for people

Caleb

to talk about. And it works. You you

Daniel

we go.

Caleb

Are you self aware?

Aaron

Great. I I have become self aware.

Caleb

You're self aware. I mean, this is the that is all I mean, that's part of the Aaron strategy. The, remember when you the this was a somebody replied, Mark, Mark whoever replied to you about memes and was like, I I don't think whatever. We don't have to say whether or not he's right or not, but the point being that, like Also Yeah. Like, saying, you know, I mean, even today with, like, the rug pulling is,

Aaron

like, Aaron, Mark Jaquith or something. Yeah.

Caleb

Mark Jaquith. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's all of those basically just naming a theme in, like, a catchy, succinct way and saying

Aaron

it a

Caleb

lot is, like Mhmm. Now you have this this IP, basically, of it's IP, basically. It's valuable IP.

Daniel

Yeah. Now you're now you're Beetlejuice.

Caleb

Yeah. And they're, like, common enough things that's, like, you know, you can just do things. I did oh, somebody reached out to me for early access to Flux. Early access to Flux just, like I was just, like, hey, let's just throw out a flyer, whatever. And they were just, like, can I get access?

Some some random person.

Aaron

Mhmm.

Caleb

And I was, like, you know what? Hell, yeah. And then See? They they this was the reply I got. It was, like, Aaron is right.

You can literally just do things. Yeah. And I'm, like, exact yeah. So now

Aaron

Aaron has branded asking for things.

Caleb

Aaron is branded asking for things. He's branded do it, you know, like, you know, but

Daniel

It's like you say try 3 times and Aaron appears.

Caleb

Yeah. Right. Literally, if I if we're, like, trying hard at something, that's Aaron's IP.

Aaron

Oh, yeah. Oh, here I am working at 10 o'clock. I better tell everyone. Work hard

Daniel

Yeah.

Caleb

Without it being Eren's IP.

Daniel

Yeah. Exactly. What the hell, man? Oh, man.

Caleb

That is

Aaron

the perks of giving everything a name and also having just a few bits that you just Well, like, I I, like an idiot, like, Beetlejuiced myself on event sourcing. Like, the most complicated, hard to wrap your

Caleb

head around. Mistake, literally.

Aaron

I should have done, like, trying hard or giving a shit or something. You know?

Caleb

Right. Like, being good.

Aaron

Yeah. You know? Event sourcing, that's a tough road to go. Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna alright.

Watch this space. In the next I'm gonna do this on stage at Laracon. This is my only opportunity. Okay. On stage at Laracon, I'm gonna brand just some really normal life thing.

Right.

Caleb

So

Daniel

that I could get tweets. What is it gonna be?

Caleb

That's like for

Aaron

for a okay. Branding basic hygiene. I'll tell you what it is. Right? And then when I come off stage, you need to repeat that life thing.

Like, that's wow. What a really great concept. Yeah. What how about give it up for the basic hygiene guy?

Daniel

Basic.

Aaron

Like, you got a cloth.

Caleb

Like us. Yeah. Right. Basic

Aaron

hygiene. Showering every day. Come on. Let's throw up. Let's give it up for him.

Caleb

It could be your shtick. It you know, it's just, like, went through poll request today, like, basic hygiene. It's, like, now everybody and I've and then I'm sitting there wash like, cleaning the dishes, and it's, like, oh, this is basic hygiene. Yeah.

Daniel

Everything you do is basic hygiene.

Aaron

Everything you do is basic hygiene.

Daniel

And that's my IP.

Aaron

And you owe me a tweet.

Caleb

That is That's your thing. Yeah.

Daniel

Oh, did you wake up in the morning? Oh, me a tweet.

Caleb

Sweet. Basic hygiene. To be extremely clear, Aaron, in case you're offended by any of this, you are, you've earned you can just do things like, Segway. You went to Boise and got interviewed by Nathan Barry on the $1,000,000,000 creator, and I'm like, he did it again.

Aaron

He did it again?

Caleb

Freaking just

Daniel

I was surprised.

Caleb

Things or ask stuff or whatever the brand is.

Aaron

Yeah. Yeah.

Caleb

But it's,

Aaron

like tighten up the brand because you

Caleb

still remember it, but yeah. Leveling it up and showing everybody that you can just do things. Everybody's going, like, damn. Like, you can just do things. So You

Aaron

can just do things. How did that come about,

Caleb

and did you just do things?

Aaron

Good segue. I just did a thing. And, actually, on on the plane ride there, I did another thing that's that's lower stakes, but still fun. So I, yeah, I just DM ed Nathan on Twitter. Just said, hey, man.

I'll probably be the smallest creator that you have on, but here are the numbers. I would love to fly up to Boise and and talk. And he said, sure. Sounds good. That was it.

That was it. That

Daniel

was all I had. Yeah.

Caleb

It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. That's great.

Aaron

Saying I'd love to fly to Boise. That's a that's big. Right? That's the move.

Daniel

Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron

Just saying, like, yeah. I know that you've only recorded in person now. I'm willing to fly up there. Oh, right. Yeah.

Kill 3 days and come be on your show. Yep. And it worked. And we got 2 episodes out of it, actually. So there's gonna be forthcoming.

There's going to be an interview episode and then, like, a coaching and it went it went great. It was awesome. Smart. Ugh. Because not only were you,

Caleb

you know, on that pod and all that stuff, but you basically,

Aaron

for the cost of

Caleb

a flight and some steak dinners, got the best business consulting you could basically Correct. Ever pay anybody to get, and he's not even available for consulting. Correct. You bagged that as well, and it's, like Yep. Dude, this is some freaking this is next level strategy.

Mhmm. So hats off to you, Aaron Francis.

Aaron

So yeah. So I get the I get the the consulting. Yep. I get the content around going. Right?

So we get this bump of, like, hey. It's here's a picture of me and Nathan. And then

Caleb

Signaling. Just associating. It's just like we're friends. This is

Aaron

You know? I was here.

Caleb

Massive cache.

Aaron

And then Yeah. And then the podcasts are gonna come out, and it's all gonna happen it's all gonna happen all over again. And I'm gonna get exposed to his audience, which is slightly different than my own, which is gonna be good.

Daniel

You gotta make, like, a a place, like, a selfie section on your website. Kinda like, kinda like like the picture of, like, Drew Barrymore in your sub shop or whatever.

Aaron

Yeah. Right. Like, you need, like, you need, like, a That's great.

Daniel

Here's here's the people I've taken selfies with section of your website.

Caleb

It's a good idea.

Daniel

Because otherwise, you're not even cashing on that cloud.

Aaron

My most I got a picture once with Marcus Lemonis, who is the prophet on CNBC's show, the prophet. Sick. I love the Yeah.

Daniel

Dust prophet.

Aaron

Yes. Yeah. And then one time, I got a picture with George W Bush, who used to be, the president of the United States. George w Bush? George w Bush.

I thought he said Jeb

Daniel

Bush. Or no?

Aaron

No. Jeb. No. Not him.

Caleb

Not low energy Jeb.

Aaron

No. Not low energy Jeb. No. The sun, George Dub.

Daniel

George Dub. You know, I made a web pretty cool Jeb.

Aaron

Jab exclamation?

Daniel

Jeb exclamation.

Aaron

No way.

Daniel

Yeah. I don't think I made

Aaron

the website. I made a website. I never spoke to him. More of a fan thing. It was not a

Caleb

fan thing.

Aaron

It was a

Daniel

I worked at a conservative nonprofit agency.

Caleb

Oh, Daniels has a fan club. Oh, yeah.

Aaron

I mean, I make the website for Jet. Well

Caleb

Yeah. Oh, man.

Aaron

Yeah. Alright. So the other thing is

Daniel

that the thing

Aaron

that I that I just did on the plane ride there, This is a this is a microcosm of you can just do things, which, by the way, I need to make a list of I need to write an article with some circles so that so that Daniel will read it. But I need to write an article about it.

Caleb

Or something. What's your other ongoing list?

Aaron

Oh, man. A list of things that work when they're broken? Great list. Great list. Go check that out.

Daniel

Yeah. Like like

Aaron

the drop down on your website, which works even though it's broken. Okay. Inappropriate. So on the on the flight there, you know, I'm on, it's it's I have an empty seat between me and then this other guy sitting next to the window. I'm on the aisle.

Yeah. We're not talking. We're just, like, best we're just being best buds, but we're not

Daniel

Holding hands.

Aaron

Yeah. We're hanging out.

Caleb

That's what I'm scratching it over.

Aaron

Right in

Caleb

the seat.

Aaron

So is anybody nobody's sitting here. Do you mind if I move over? Keep butt. So then the drink the drink cart comes along, and I'm like, yeah. I'm gonna get I'm gonna get a drink.

And so the guy says, you know, what do you want? And I say, what did I order? I think I ordered a gin and tonic, and the guy next to me ordered something like a tequila seltzer or something.

Daniel

Yeah. Sunrise.

Aaron

And and the guy, the flight attendant said, are y'all together? And I said, no. And then I looked at the guy and said, unless are you paying leaned in. Yeah. Then I kissed him on the cheek.

No. I looked at him. I said, unless are you paying?

Caleb

And he looked at me,

Aaron

and he goes, ah, I'll pay for you. And I said, no. No. No. Absolutely not.

Yeah. Just doing a bit. Looked at the flight attendant, said, I'm paying for myself. He's being very kind. I'm paying for myself.

The guy flight attendant gets us both of our drinks and then says, well, this guy, John, his name is John. John's in the military, so his is free. And since he's paying for you, yours is free as well. Now that's a move. Very nice.

That's a move. Right?

Caleb

That's a move. This story could have gone in 5 other directions that would have been extremely cringey. It would've

Aaron

been, but it but it was great.

Caleb

That's a great outcome.

Aaron

I got to do a little folksy bit. I got to make friends with the guy next to me, and then I also didn't have to pay for my drink.

Caleb

It's a

Aaron

win win win.

Daniel

Yeah. It's a win. You can just do things while you're on the plane.

Caleb

I don't think that fits in that you can just do things. This there's needs to be a new brand for that. You know, it's not a perfect you can just do things.

Aaron

Yeah. But it it kinda it kinda is it kinda is. There's a whole there's a whole line of my life where just, like, being folksy pays off. So we gotta think of a Right. That's like a phrase for that.

Yes. You can awash your way to success. Just awash. It's a little wordy. I know.

Daniel

Yeah. It's a mouthful. Yeah. Toothsome.

Caleb

We'll figure it out.

Aaron

We'll figure it out. Think on it.

Caleb

Just get things for free.

Aaron

You can. You really, really can. As long as you're folksy, you can kinda get away with a lot of stuff. Or as long as the person you're asking is too polite to say no. Yeah.

Maybe. True.

Caleb

But if your folks need to cross

Aaron

your street into giving you things for free by

Caleb

You can bully people. That's yeah.

Aaron

Especially if that's a sit next to

Daniel

you on a new plate

Caleb

for a while. If you just became a guy who said, ah, this one's on you. Right? Enough time. Like, just that you just said that all the time.

Like, you'd you'd make a bunch of money.

Daniel

And you restrict people's ability to go to the bathroom. You can get them to buy you a drink for free.

Aaron

This one's on you. That's a great, that this one's on you.

Daniel

Oh, that is

Caleb

just a serious branding. I'm gonna tell a story that I hesitate to tell, but I I wanna know for real because, like, a friend of mine, who's a friend in every other way Mhmm. We were at a beer store thing getting, like, there's a taco truck, we get the tacos. The friend goes, I'm about to, like, walk in. I think I'm about to walk in to get a beer.

He just came. He's, like, hey. Give me whatever you're having or something like that. Mhmm. You know?

Or I said, like, what do you want? He's, like, whatever you're having.

Aaron

You know? Mhmm.

Caleb

But he did prompt for, like, for me to buy him the beer. Right? No problem. He buys happy to buy a beer for a friend. I'm going to get a beer.

Of course, I'm gonna get 2 beers. It's standard.

Aaron

This guy's over 21. Right? He's not running This guy's, like, 55. Okay. Cool.

Alright. He It's making me

Caleb

bring him the beer. We drink our beers. It's happy days. A week or two later, we're at a dip like, a different brewery outside

Aaron

with Mhmm.

Caleb

Families, our families as well. He's on the other side of the table. Mhmm. And and I'm about to get up, or I wasn't even getting up. I had already gotten a beer, and he goes, like, hey,

Aaron

can you get me a beer? You know?

Caleb

And I was, like, oh, I'm sorry. He says I'm sorry. Oh, no. This is the worst story ever. Okay.

This is it. This is really important. You could just Yeah. No. He he says, hey, can you grab me a beer?

I you know, I'm trapped here in behind the table. So I say, like, yeah. And I figured he's implying that he'll get me a beer as well, because I was going up to get a beer. So he's, like, hey, can you get, you know, I don't know. I thought it I thought I was, like, reading the situation.

I was like, yeah. And, like, should I get one too? Or I was like an awkward way to ask, and and so he he was like Should I get Yes. But it became, like, really weird to the point where I lit I couldn't tell if he if I was supposed to buy a beer for myself on his tab or not, or if this was supposed to go on my tab. And he literally was like like, if you really want one, that's what he said.

And I was like, this is so out of character. He's like, if you really want one, and I was like, oh, yeah. I mean, I it was just awkward, and everybody's staring. And then I said, I bought you a beer, like, 2 weeks ago. And he's, like, I know you did.

And I just got up and, like, bought him the beer. You know? So weird. This is so uncomfortable. That's It was the most uncomfortable thing ever, and now I'm wondering That's incredible.

This guy is already pretty cheap, but he is, like, half retired and, like, on the 5.

Aaron

He's on a fixed income.

Caleb

Exactly. And he I think he referenced something like that. And I was like, wait a second. And now I'm like, should I care about this Internet? Is this, like, a a problem?

Or I don't know.

Aaron

It could just be a weird This is but it it was incredibly uncomfortable.

Caleb

And now I'm, like, almost he's a guy that, like, we've shared our each other's hearts. Like, I almost wanna be, like, yo, dude, is something going on? Like, like, I don't know. He may

Aaron

be in a tough season.

Caleb

Yeah. Right.

Daniel

He's he's having a he's having a difficult season. Yeah.

Aaron

A season. He's going through a season.

Caleb

I don't know.

Aaron

He's in the desert. Uh-huh.

Caleb

So, you know, people might ask you to buy their so I'm the other guy on the plane, Aaron.

Aaron

Yeah. This is very uncomfortable for me. The fact well, the I I kinda think the fact that you asked him, should I buy one too on your tab

Daniel

That is weird. That's a weird thing to say.

Caleb

No. I I know. It's like I can't express to you the exact words where you would be like, okay. That was kinda normal. But it was in such a way what it was was me, like, I'm 90% sure that he'll be, like, weirded out if I don't get myself a beer.

You know? Yeah.

Aaron

Yeah. Fixed income. Yeah.

Caleb

Yeah. But, like, you have to make sure.

Daniel

But I will I will hand someone

Aaron

because, like, it is weird to say,

Daniel

like, here's my card. Go get me something and bring it back.

Caleb

Yes. And not yourself, 1. It Yeah. And especially given that I

Aaron

I don't know. I don't know. He's he's using the trappedness as the reason to only get him a beer. He's saying, I'm not buying this round. I am merely trapped, and so I need you to be my hands and feet.

It was then that you carried me.

Caleb

Uh-huh. And so I get the card, and I but I figured he the only way he told yeah. You guys. The only way he told me that is because, like, if I was in his shoes, I'd be like, oh, I'm kinda trapped. I kinda want a beer.

I'll go ahead and get me one and get himself one. He just got me a beer. This is like, otherwise, I would feel uncomfortable about asking. I'd be, like, no. If I don't want him to to charge me for a beer, I'm not gonna I'm just gonna wait or something.

Mhmm. Mhmm. It wasn't even that trapped. I don't know.

Aaron

Impossible Impossible to make a ruling. Impossible to

Caleb

make a ruling.

Aaron

I will say my favorite part of the story is when you said, I can't tell you the exact words, but it came it was really normal. Like, I know that I'm sounding like the bad guy, but it's

Caleb

just because I can't remember the right words.

Daniel

I said it in a way that was really normal.

Aaron

It was really cool and normal. Yeah. That's totally normal.

Caleb

Oh. That's how I'm gonna

Aaron

tell stories from now on. If I sound like the bad guy, it's just because I can't remember exactly what I said.

Daniel

Exactly. Hey, Alex. In such a cool and normal way. Yeah.

Caleb

I clocked that as well. Done. For you, like, I have to be like, you you've had enough interactions with me to know I'm not a douchebag. Right? Like, please.

Can you just give me the benefit of doubt

Aaron

on this one? Just kidding. You know?

Daniel

Just give me credit for being normal here. Can you just please?

Aaron

Did I miss the end? What actually happened? What did you do?

Caleb

I bought either a each beer

Aaron

separate or we don't he doesn't even remember. No. No. No.

Caleb

I bought myself the beer.

Aaron

You bought yourself

Caleb

I no. I bought the beer on his tab.

Aaron

You bought him a beer on his own tab. No. He bought you a beer on

Caleb

his own tab.

Daniel

He paid

Caleb

for my beer too.

Aaron

And you bought yourself

Caleb

a beer on his tab. It was a confrontation a little bit, but I'm telling

Daniel

this guy 6 pack to take home.

Caleb

This guy, like, is so close, and I I know. I should have bought a 6 pack take.

Aaron

He was so close. Yeah.

Caleb

It, I don't know that he was so close, but

Aaron

I was,

Caleb

like, okay.

Aaron

Guess we'll never talk about it. Really want

Caleb

a beer, I'm, like, alright. I'll buy myself a beer. Weirdo.

Aaron

Anyway This guy's on a fixed income, and you're eking out $60 No. No. With the guy about. So

Caleb

You don't have to get into this guy's story. You're not gonna

Aaron

take my word for it anyway.

Daniel

Yeah. Is this the guy from Panera?

Caleb

Didn't I start the story by saying I should not start the story?

Aaron

No. You said you're hesitant to tell it.

Daniel

Yeah. Same thing. Yeah. No. It's different.

Yeah.

Caleb

No. It's different. I was hesitant. Who is it?

Aaron

Expenses at? And in this case,

Daniel

it is at yours.

Aaron

And, unfortunately, you were hoisted by your own petard on this one.

Caleb

I should've just said, hey, can you buy me a beer? Or this one's on him. And then the waitress would've been like, it's on me.

Aaron

She would've done the side I verify. She would've looked over at the guy, and the guy would've been like, ah, shucks. And then you would've been you would've been in there. Verify. That's what it's called.

That's good. Right? The side I verify?

Caleb

Side I verify.

Aaron

I could do this all day. It's right

Daniel

off the top.

Aaron

Yeah. You know, 2 other things I just I just asked for. 1, a long time ago, I DM'd West Boss and was like, hey, man. I'll pay you an hour I'll pay you for an hour of your consulting time to look at my videos and tell me what to do better. And he was like, sure.

Let's do it. Wow. And so

Caleb

I did. Got on a

Aaron

call with West Boss. It was expensive. I think I paid him, like, $300, but it was totally worth it because we spent an hour on the phone That's me and him penis. Looking at my videos.

Caleb

For that kind

Aaron

of situation. Consulting? It was great. That's cool. The other time was I asked Caleb for a thing.

Caleb

Yeah.

Aaron

Back in the day, I said, hey, Caleb. You were on GitHub. Read me the blog. Can you introduce me to the person,

Daniel

that you

Aaron

talked to? And he did, and that was the beginning.

Caleb

That was where it all started.

Daniel

Why? You

Aaron

can just do things. There

Caleb

okay. Let me brand something. Okay. You can just be, like, super cool to random people and never tell anybody, and that's what's up. He was just, like, be do the coolest things for random nobodies and don't signal publicly at all about it, even if it never comes back to you and they randomly get super famous and popular like Aaron Francis.

Yeah.

Aaron

That's great. That's the move.

Daniel

I knew a guy who was, I don't know. He was a little no offense Caleb. He was a little he was sort of an Italian. Italian American, and, he told me one

Caleb

time, okay,

Daniel

as long as you owe me money, I'll never go broke. And that.

Caleb

As long

Aaron

as you owe me money,

Caleb

I'll never go broke.

Daniel

It was interesting. It was in it was in the context of like, I owed him I owed him money for a service. Right? Like, he provided a service. And I was like, oh, let me pay you for the, you know.

And he was like, oh, don't worry about it. As long as you owe me money, I'll never go broke. And it was a very, like, mafia. So energy the way he said

Caleb

it. Right. Right.

Daniel

Like, I got money on the street.

Aaron

I love the accent. I don't know if I fully understand the saying. As long as you owe me money,

Daniel

I'll never go around. Have everyone always owing you something.

Aaron

That's so awkward. That you walk around just

Daniel

kind of, like, passively collecting.

Aaron

Right? Which is

Daniel

also sort

Caleb

of, like, is this mafia? Very good bit, like, if healthily done. Uh-huh. But, like, you guys probably know them too. But as an Italian person, I have plenty of, like, Italians that I could literally name for you.

Like, there's this one dude, friend of the family, who's the favorite guy. Joey. Yeah. His name's Russ, and he's the favorite guy. It's just, like, he's always he will hook you up so that you're always, like, indebted to him Mhmm.

And whatever. He's the guy who will ask you for something. When you know him, he will hook and the thing is he forwards it around. He goes, oh, yeah. Yeah.

I'll hook this guy up with this guy as the favor for this guy. Now this guy owes me.

Aaron

Mhmm. You know,

Caleb

because this guy owed me, because I did that for him with someone else. And he's passing all these favors around, and it's this tangled web, and it's, like What a

Aaron

tangled web we weave. It's

Caleb

a tangled web. But, yeah. So it's a good bit, Daniel.

Aaron

It's a good bit. As long as you owe

Daniel

me money on Never Go Broke.

Aaron

As long as you owe

Caleb

me money on Never Go Broke.

Aaron

And the accent the accent is honestly it's pretty good.

Caleb

Anytime I hear Japanese man.

Daniel

Anytime I hear someone, like, spout off some sort of like mafioso wisdom like that, I immediately want to say it.

Aaron

Yeah. That could that could be your thing. However, in your line of business, if everyone owes you money, you will go broke. That is the problem. Yeah.

Yeah, that is correct. True. Yeah. You're kind of in the business of getting paid for the services, not having favors. Uh-huh.

So just something to think about.

Daniel

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Caleb

Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Aaron

You believe Do you wanna do another topic?

Daniel

1. What you got?

Aaron

Alright. Here's what I still got. Arlinda started

Daniel

Arlinda.

Aaron

Kit Studios. Steve was in

Caleb

the hospital.

Aaron

We already kinda did Laracon. We're not gonna do Laracon.

Caleb

Let's do a little bit of Laracon.

Aaron

I think we haven't done all the Laracon. Yeah.

Caleb

We Wow. We talked about Laracon.

Aaron

That went over well.

Caleb

Yeah. I'm sorry. Why. Yeah. They're too Eren focused.

We have to, you

Daniel

know We've solved the thing all the time.

Caleb

I'm I'm putting

Aaron

the team on my back in terms of topics here. You guys you guys gave me no topics.

Caleb

Oh, I'm

Aaron

I'm just barely

Daniel

talking about event sourcing. At any moment.

Aaron

Oh, goodness.

Caleb

I do actually have a sheet of paper, and on it, it does say event sourcing, but not boring.

Aaron

And therein lies the rub with the brand event sourcing. As long

Caleb

as you have an issue, we can't ever say the word event sourcing. Yeah. But here here's something I'm feeling about Laracon

Aaron

Tell me.

Caleb

Is that there are more people here Yeah. To meet Okay. Like, by a long shot than ever before.

Aaron

Mhmm.

Caleb

It just feels like there's so many new faces and so many people that it's, like, wow. Like, yeah. Of course, I wanna see this person and chat with them. But if I if I do that for every person that is on that roster, it's, like Mhmm. This is gonna be nuts.

I don't know if my brain will be able to handle this socially. Like, I feel like it will short circuit and be absolutely zapped.

Daniel

You know what I'm doing? I'm playing poker the 2 days the 2 nights after Laracon, and I'm just gonna tell people, oh, yeah. I'm gonna be at TCH playing poker. So if you wanna come through, like, I don't know if you

Aaron

play poker, but, like,

Caleb

come through

Daniel

and, like, we kick it and talk. And and then it's, like, it gives me, like, a thing because I can't possibly talk to everyone. But I can't, like, give you a place where, like, if you're in town, like, come through. We can kick it and, like, be friends and

Caleb

Yeah.

Aaron

Play poker or whatever. What what is TCH?

Daniel

Texas card house, baby. It's a famous establishment. I'm excited.

Caleb

Texas card house. That's sweet. That's a good move. Yeah. And then that's Yeah.

Oh, yeah. No. 2 days after kind of like thinned out, relax a little bit. Just chill. Exactly.

Yeah. So

Daniel

So it's, like, anyone who's, like, left in town can, like

Caleb

Do you guys have that feeling at all that there's, like, more energy and people that are all, like, in this slurry of people that, you know, should that know each other online now, but not in person as much, like, than ever before. Yeah.

Aaron

It's fair. I do feel like this, Laracon is bringing more folks from outside the the traditional Laravel circles. Yeah. So there's a whole group of people inside the Laravel circle that I've never met in person, and I'm looking forward to meeting. Josh Siri, who we've mentioned on the show included.

He's the guy that likes Versus code. And then, you know, a bunch of those people, but then there's also a bunch of people outside the circle. Like, all the the terminal coffee shop boys are coming.

Caleb

Drink

Aaron

some right now. Justin I think Justin Jackson is coming. John O'Nolan, the ghost guy.

Caleb

Oh, yeah. Cool.

Aaron

A lot of people that I'm I'm Internet friends with that I've never met.

Caleb

I love these projects. I think I'm saying that.

Aaron

Yeah. I it's gonna be a lot.

Caleb

It's gonna be so fun.

Aaron

It's gonna be a lot.

Caleb

What's the dynamic gonna be like with these non Laravel folks? Like, John O'Nolan is is he done Laravel? He he's he's done, like, Livewire stuff. So, like, he also is into the tech as well as being, you know, him and Node and Ghost and whatever. Yeah.

Aaron

He's he's done some Laravel stuff for sure.

Caleb

But some of the, like, non Laravel folks, like, it's just gonna be it's, dude, it's like when one friend from some other friend group is, like, with it and you're like, how do you how does this work? You know? Mhmm.

Aaron

You guys talk about random stuff that they have in common.

Caleb

You're like, I gotta do it.

Aaron

But Did you guys both have breakfast this morning? Talk about that for a little bit. That's crazy.

Daniel

Build your hygiene.

Caleb

Build your hygiene. Basic hygiene.

Aaron

Basic hygiene.

Caleb

Yeah. Basic hygiene? I hate

Aaron

by the way, I hate being the bridge guy in a in in a social setting

Daniel

Oh, yeah.

Aaron

Where there's 2 groups of friends, and I am the VIN overlap. I hate

Caleb

that. Mhmm.

Aaron

It's not do you have the

Caleb

personality that, like, like, I will make myself that out of my nature, and I hate it.

Daniel

Yes. Yeah.

Caleb

Like Yep. There's people who just have that hookspa to just be, like, whatever. Not my not my deal. Like

Aaron

No. Totally. Totally my deal. And I

Caleb

see Like, I am responsible for everybody's comfort. Yes.

Aaron

If I see somebody on the margins, I'm like, that's my my responsibility to make sure they get brought in. Yeah. For sure.

Daniel

So I don't I don't do it at scale. I like pick a person on the margins and make them my project for the conference. Yeah. But I I'm certainly not gonna do it for more than, like, 3 people.

Caleb

You're the guy. Daniel's the guy I'd be, like, whatever. Like, it's not my like, you don't feel that, but you are also the guy that yeah. You're not, like, the coordinator of the social experience.

Daniel

Well So you,

Caleb

you know yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Mhmm.

Yeah. Yes.

Aaron

Trying to be a lot of fun. To meet. It's gonna be a lot of fun, but it is going to be mentally very taxing.

Daniel

It's gonna

Caleb

be a long time getting here. I think I'm going

Aaron

to fly Saturday night.

Caleb

I don't know the days.

Daniel

But Sunday alone in the hotel to just. Man, that's awesome. Do my thing. Crashes the talk. Well, don't talk to anybody.

Caleb

Yeah. Hell, yeah.

Daniel

Don't have any client work, you know?

Caleb

Because it's like I could

Daniel

fly Sunday and just spend that time here practicing.

Caleb

But Is Sunday what day is the first day of the conference? Isn't it Tuesday?

Daniel

Tuesday. Tuesday. So we have a Monday daytime activity.

Aaron

We have a football basketball. We We have a football baseball service.

Caleb

I have tiny babies, and I I'm flying in in the last minute, and I'm flying out at the very minute that I'm, like, that morning, like, right after the conference, which kinda sucks.

Aaron

But Lame. Yeah.

Caleb

It's, like, I gotta be in, out, back to What's the point squeezing babies.

Aaron

What's the point

Daniel

of living in Buffalo to be close to your family if you can't spend a week at a conference?

Aaron

No. That's a

Daniel

gamble. And drinking. True.

Caleb

You know? Networking. Sorry. The problem is, that my wife's parents run a summer camp all summer. Oh.

So there's 0 from that side. But also the problem is that when they're really little, you can't just be, like, here you go, you know?

Daniel

Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron

We got a 4 week old We need, like, a winter Olympics version of Laracon. Yeah. By that, do you mean a, Laracon in the winter?

Daniel

Yeah. Downhill.

Caleb

Yeah. Mhmm. Downhill. Yeah. Mhmm.

Mhmm. Yeah. That would be you mean, like, an in a winter venue?

Daniel

Yeah. In a winter venue.

Caleb

Chicago or something which takes, like, the most brutal.

Aaron

Yeah. Something absolutely brutal from Texas in August to Chicago in January. Perfect.

Caleb

Dude, that's what we should do. Yes. Well But I'm excited. I I I but I'm just not gonna speak at Laricons anymore, and then I'm gonna love Laricons, and then we can do a winter Laricon and just do hang ups and Is this your last

Aaron

is this your last rodeo?

Caleb

I honestly, I feel like this may be my last rodeo.

Daniel

Dude, just put a moratorium on launching things, dude.

Caleb

Yeah. I'll do online events. If we can do a Laracon online, I'll do that all day.

Daniel

Just give a talk.

Caleb

I just wanna go to Laracon and hang out with

Aaron

your stuff.

Caleb

Talking ruins it even if I didn't care about it.

Aaron

It does.

Caleb

I for me, I have to outdo whatever I did last time, so it will be I know. But it's, like, at that I just can't. I'm telling you, Daniel, that I will tell myself I can until 2 months before, and then I will ruin all of that and go back on my word, and my family will hate me. And I will be the worst everything to everyone, and I will also hate it. So, anyway, yeah, I think I'm just gonna stop doing talks at Laracon and just go to them and hang out.

What do you think?

Aaron

I think that's a great idea. Sounds fun. Way, way, way, way for sure. Talk on a panel.

Daniel

Oh, yeah. Like wavin, dude. Love panel.

Aaron

Love a panel because then this is this is the secret of being the MC. You don't

Caleb

have to prepare a talk. Yeah.

Aaron

You still get invited to all the speaker stuff.

Caleb

Right.

Aaron

That is amazing. Hang out the night before with all the speakers and hang out backstage. Brand. Exactly. And then you don't you don't actually have to prepare a talk.

You just get up there and you'd be folksy, and you do you know, you point at some people, and then you're, like, alright,

Caleb

here we go.

Daniel

Basic hygiene.

Caleb

Yep. Something that has changed about me that I wonder if it's I think it's because of being profitable basic hygiene is that, like, I don't care about being recognized anymore. So now all that a lot of that upside is gone, and now it's just downside to me. It's, like, oh, I would I I would rather just, you know, be hanging out on the couch, that kind of thing. Where, like, before it'd be, like, oh, I wanna go meet all these people and blah blah blah.

And now it's, like, I would rather just not do any of that. And Mhmm. And because I think because of the the incentive is gone, it's, like, I don't know, you know?

Daniel

Are we gonna see Jack Harlow this year? That would be great.

Caleb

We should check who's gonna be in Dallas. Yeah. Who's Jack Harlow?

Daniel

He came last year.

Caleb

He's a rapper.

Aaron

Oh, yeah. I don't know him.

Caleb

He's a white rapper, though, so you might know him. You know?

Aaron

Is it Eminem? No. Because that's all I got. That's the only that's maybe the only rapper I know. Definitely the only white rapper I know.

Caleb

Yeah.

Aaron

Yeah. This is the I'm the wrong guy for the the hip hop talk.

Caleb

Yeah. Sorry about that. Well, you know.

Aaron

Caleb

Caleb

Shall we?

Aaron

You're not excited. You're not excited about, about giving your talk. Well, you are.

Caleb

Yeah. I am. I know you're really jazzed on stage.

Aaron

Yeah. You'll put on a

Caleb

good show. And I I'll put on a good show, and I'm excited to put on the good show. It's just

Aaron

mixed in

Caleb

with all the stress and dread. You know? Okay. That is always there, but, I dig. It's just, yeah.

So, no, I if I was giving a talk to, like, 50 people who just didn't care that much, I I would love that experience because I do love, like, you know, having everybody's attention and and, like, performing something and delivering something.

Aaron

Love putting on a show.

Caleb

I love putting on a show. Exactly. But, but yeah. So a lot of the benefits are not there to justify the taxing work involved. And yeah.

And it's, like, well, if you're already gonna make money anyway and build something that you like that people already like, like, then that's that's what's that's what I'm in it for, ultimately. So yeah. So I do kind of hope this is my last lyric title.

Aaron

Okay. Wow. Don't don't miss this one because this is the last shot y'all will have to see him live and in person.

Caleb

I'll do an online talk, whatever. I don't know. But

Aaron

One of my things,

Daniel

I'll

Aaron

be building up the hype for Laracon. Okay. Daniel, over to you. How excited are you? Well, I so I think I have a new, philosophy.

It's sorry. It's not

Daniel

a philosophy. It's like a it's an observation of my own toxic tendencies. It's not a I don't endorse it. It is what I do and it does work. And it is called too stressed to be scared.

And that is a maneuver that I notice that I do all the

Aaron

time, which is just like,

Daniel

oh, big scary thing coming up. Just make yourself so busy that you literally can't even think straight.

Aaron

And then Yeah. It'll just happen before you know

Daniel

it, and you won't have had time to obsess about it.

Caleb

Yeah. Yeah. Dissection is is great.

Daniel

I do that problem with that

Caleb

until today. It will smack you the morning of Yeah. But it's, like, it's better than having it smack you every day for the

Aaron

But then you can you can flip to too blessed to be stressed. When that hits Too stressed to be scared, then too blessed to be stressed. Stressed to be scared. And then when it's too too much, you can say, I'm, you know, I'm just too blessed to be stressed. Mhmm.

And then it boom. You're back.

Caleb

Mhmm. Yeah. My one solution that I that always works for me or helps is, like, whenever I get in my head, you just gotta go back to working

Aaron

on your talk and doing something that you think is really awesome.

Daniel

Right.

Caleb

And then it starts to it just fill you with, like, excitement. Because when I'm working on my talk and I'm in the zone, I'm actually very excited. I'm, like Mhmm. I can't wait to deliver this and show people this stuff. Mhmm.

This stuff I'm really excited about. But then as as I get maybe farther away from the talk or from doing other things, then I just then it just becomes, like, a not good thing. You know?

Aaron

How many times y'all practice your talks before you give them?

Caleb

Historically, at, like, a zillion times, but, this year less. I've only done it for you guys and then one other group, so 2 times. Yeah.

Aaron

Oh, wow. Historically, I get solo?

Caleb

No. Okay. Wow.

Daniel

Damn. Historically, I get the beats, and then I spend the day before finding all the jokes. The jokes. Yeah. That's crazy.

And Adam's the

Caleb

same way with, like, just kind of the amount of prep is, like, so minimal that it is always mind blowing, You know? And, like, wow. And so it probably is just a very good experience. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't know if you were in the

Daniel

past one.

Caleb

I imagine you're like me. I I practice the shit out of it. Like Yeah.

Aaron

Yes. Yes. I practice dozens of times

Caleb

Oh, yeah. All the way through All the way through.

Aaron

Hair and makeup, which means put on, like, stand up, put a keynote on the screen, and use the clicker.

Caleb

Yep. Like Me too. Fully. Yeah. Yep.

And you hit that timer and you go,

Aaron

this is gonna I'm doing this again, and it's going to take an hour,

Caleb

you know, or whatever.

Aaron

That is

Caleb

the worst part.

Aaron

That is

Caleb

the worst part. The start button

Aaron

on the iPhone, and you're like, this is gonna count up to 45 minutes. Right.

Caleb

And

Aaron

I'm gonna be here in

Caleb

the hotel like an idiot. This is unbearable. That is the worst part.

Aaron

That is the worst part.

Caleb

It's so Agreed. So bad. But, yeah, I I don't know. Anyway, talking. Yeah.

Talking.

Daniel

I'm excited. Honestly, I I can't wait for Sunday in the hotel to just do the talk to myself a million times. Like that is that's what in my like Zen before the conference is like just lock myself in a room,

Caleb

put

Daniel

it on the TV in the hotel and then just like give the talk to myself in the hotel. Like that's like Hot Zen Get a talk. Marshall matters,

Aaron

you know?

Caleb

Mhmm.

Daniel

Are you familiar with that guy?

Aaron

I am. Marshall matters.

Caleb

Yeah. He's the other white rapper that I know. Yeah. He's the other one. Yeah.

Yeah. Bad meets evil. Mhmm.

Aaron

Okay. Well, anything anything else on Laracon? That's the only topic. I I have these great

Caleb

The only topic, though.

Aaron

We'll wrap there. We could do a we could do a well gang and wrap it up.

Caleb

Well gang? Well, did we cue it?

Aaron

Yeah. We don't do that here. But do you anything else anything else would the people need to know? Basic hygiene is Daniels.

Caleb

Linda got hired.

Daniel

Is mine, TM.

Aaron

Linda got hired. Linda's name is Kelsey. Yeah. Or Linda.

Caleb

Yeah. You're Linda. You're Linda.

Aaron

Steve is alive. He was in the hospital for a week, but he's alive.

Daniel

I'm happy

Caleb

for him.

Daniel

Yeah. Same. Met him.

Caleb

I mean, you know

Daniel

What's he like?

Caleb

He's good. Alive. Tall.

Daniel

What's his vibe? Is he coming to Laracon? Yeah.

Aaron

He's coming to Laracon. Oh, cool. Super chill vibes. Alright. Good.

He'll be

Caleb

all healed up?

Aaron

Yeah. He'll be all healed up.

Caleb

Alright. Yeah. So a mountain biking accident?

Aaron

Mountain biking accident. Arm got infected.

Caleb

That's cool.

Aaron

Had to get surgery to clean out his joint, which is just horrifying.

Caleb

My Yeah.

Aaron

I'm not gonna bore

Daniel

you guys with an infection story.

Caleb

I Are you hesitant to tell it?

Aaron

Do not want to hear an infection story. And that's why. Yeah. More than anything, I do not wanna hear an infection story.

Caleb

Yeah. Big time. I can do.

Daniel

You seem like a squeem. Yeah.

Aaron

Are you I have 4 children. I've changed a 1000000 diapers, and I've changed 2 diapers ever without wearing surgical gloves. So I'm I would I'm a little bit a bit of yours. Yeah. I fly loose with

Caleb

the with the diapers for sure.

Aaron

No. No. No. No. No, sir.

No can

Caleb

do button. Moments. Yeah.

Aaron

Nope. Yeah. Some Nope. I don't I don't wanna hear about it. I didn't listen to your entire episode about she found a booger in my hair because I couldn't go

Caleb

through it. Don't listen

Aaron

to it.

Caleb

It's basically the grossest thing I've ever recorded.

Aaron

Yeah. I mean, you started talking about snot rockets, and I was like I I understand, but I can't listen to this. Right. I like the idea of you.

Caleb

Daniel, I don't know if you let did you listen to that, Daniel?

Daniel

No. But I just like

Aaron

the idea of, like, Aaron with, like, maybe carrying 2 babies and, like, strollering 2 more through, like, a mall in Dallas retching with AirPods in. Yeah. Truly. Truly. I have the shortest gag reflex ever.

I will I will absolutely be able to listen to something gross and start gagging as if I'm about to throw it. Uh-huh. Exactly.

Caleb

Oh, that's crazy.

Aaron

100%. Yeah.

Daniel

Yeah. Retching is hilarious to me. I don't

Aaron

know why.

Caleb

I think me and Daniel are just, like, degenerates. Like, I don't know. I don't know.

Aaron

I mean, there's there's an outside possibility that I'm a soft boy. There there's that is just minuscule possibility.

Caleb

Is it so my wife can't handle blood at all, like, she faints, or talking about any of this stuff? What's that, Dave?

Daniel

I'm not not talking about it. But one time we

Aaron

were watching a show on TV, and she just Really? What? Yeah. I don't have I don't really have a blood a blood queasiness issue.

Caleb

Oh, that's good.

Aaron

I don't prefer I get my blood drawn, you know, many times a year because of type 1 diabetes, which is, you know, too bad. You can't laugh. This is a disease.

Caleb

I don't have any control of this. Disease. Deficits.

Aaron

It's very inappropriate. And I never watch him draw my blood. I can't watch that. I oh, it's horrifying. Yeah.

That's true. Pass out if I

Caleb

see it. Right. Right. Right. Okay.

Yeah. So you're more of, like, you're squeamish. You're, like, gross squeamish. Like, you

Aaron

do all. Squeamish. Yeah.

Caleb

You're, like, have you ever seen us osmosis Jones? No. Is that a rapper? Hate it. That's it's a rapper.

It's a white guy. Okay.

Aaron

I don't know.

Caleb

No. Osmosis Jones. You've never seen that movie, Daniel? Really? This is, like, an animated movie around our time.

So when we were, like, kids, this would have been a movie that, what's happening? Magic School

Daniel

Bus adjacent? Is this educational?

Caleb

No. It it's, Bill Murray's in it, and Oh. He's just he plays a gross guy. And then Yeah. It's, like, a whole thing about, like, cartoons being in his bloodstream or whatever and and experiencing the internals of him being a gross guy.

But he Mhmm. Does that act, like, really well, and you're really just grossed out the whole you're, like, that guy's freaking gross. Mhmm. So Aaron would hate it. Yeah.

Aaron

That's a no for me. Not

Caleb

Aaron. Yeah. So you yeah. That's that's something. The gloves are smart, because sometimes, you know, you might poke through or something.

You don't know. You don't know what's going on. Do not wanna pokes through.

Aaron

I don't know what that means, but you do not want that to happen.

Caleb

Do you guys ever watch I Think You Should Leave? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel

Yeah. Oh my

Aaron

gosh. That the

Caleb

funniest freaking show that, like

Aaron

The funniest, it's it's hit or miss. It is the funniest show in the world, or it's, like, this is so stupid.

Caleb

So stupid.

Aaron

And I hit next and go to the next one. But, yes.

Caleb

Like, I think my dad would be, like

Aaron

funniest show in the world.

Caleb

But is it right? There whatever. There's some there's a whole bit about, like, stupidest thing ever, but the dude who gives somebody a gift, and it's basically, he accuses the guy at a birthday party, whose birthday it is, of having, like, wiped with a small, a paper a toilet paper thing. And and now he's touching and how his stomach hurts because he's contaminated. Did you guys see it?

Okay. If you didn't see it Yeah.

Aaron

I'm not gonna make your podcast the most

Caleb

gross podcast the way I made mine, but it's extremely hilarious.

Aaron

We're gonna need a we're gonna need a need a lot of help from producer Dave on this.

Daniel

Aaron, we're here

Aaron

to let you down. Brand.

Caleb

Down at the end. Exactly. We're, like Get on our webinar. Take that tie and just

Aaron

Yeah. Roll

Caleb

up your sleeves. Yeah. Aaron, do

Daniel

you have any tattoos?

Caleb

No. We're gonna get Are

Daniel

you ever gonna get one?

Aaron

I thought about getting a half sleeve or, like, a 3 quarter sleeve. Wait. But That's such a dramatic departure

Daniel

from no tattoos. Why would you do that? No.

Aaron

I just realized

Caleb

one on my on my, like,

Aaron

cheekbone. Yeah. I was thinking about putting a a devil eye in the middle of my forehead. I

Daniel

don't know.

Aaron

No. I wouldn't do anything crazy, but I just you know, sleeves are cool. And 3 quarter sleeves are 100% as cool as a full length sleeve. So it's like you get a little bonus there. But I realized 5.

No. They're a 100% as cool. But I realized, like, you know, I don't think I'm a sleeve guy, but you know who else wasn't a sleeve guy? Every guy before they got a sleeve, and then you then you're a sleeve guy.

Caleb

That's the that's the thing cool. Right. Like, I felt that way too. It's, like, like, I, you know, I haven't suffered enough or, like, I'm not hardcore enough.

Aaron

Right.

Caleb

Like Exactly. You know, I just can't go doing that, but but I think there's guys softer than me who have sleeves, you know. Yeah. For sure. No.

0. 0? Yeah. I would have thought you

Daniel

would have some from your days as a piece of shit.

Caleb

I know. And and I've thought so many times that that I should get one, and I feel like I do kinda deserve one a little bit for being such a piece of shit for so long. But, you know? Gosh.

Aaron

Alright. Laracon, 3rd, please use me both.

Caleb

Actual legit he so Daniel's tattoos tattoos

Daniel

They're the worst.

Caleb

That's old. That or that's, like, you're not hardcore if you do that anymore. Right? Because me and Aaron are gonna get sleeves.

Aaron

We're not hardcore.

Caleb

They have the Daniel has, like like, my cousin John, like, you know, you got, like, the toothbrush or something and did, like, a prison tattoo. Prison tattoo.

Daniel

I got stick and pose. I got tattoos. So Yeah. They're all bad too. I don't have any good tattoos.

Caleb

Mhmm. Daniel's hardcore. He's he's got the tattoos that That sounds pretty hardcore. You see, and you're, like, you're, like, okay, dude. That guy's seen some stuff.

Yeah.

Daniel

Yeah. This guy, you know. F13 key on my hand. That's pretty neat one.

Caleb

You got that since I've known you.

Aaron

That's a real tattoo?

Caleb

Yeah, dude.

Aaron

No way. Yeah.

Caleb

That's pretty hardcore.

Aaron

That's good content. Look at that.

Caleb

Show the new

Aaron

it's I'm wearing a hoodie.

Caleb

Oh, it's on his ass. Sorry. I just put him in a weird spot.

Aaron

Well, gang?

Daniel

Is this a little blue for you, Aaron? Is this a little blue for your normal mostly technical content? I think we're

Aaron

making that worse as we go.

Caleb

Like, no.

Aaron

We've done another one.

Daniel

Yeah. And anything real wholesome content anyone wanted to cover? Anything really just unobjectionable? Anyone had No. Faulty?

Aaron

Yeah. The well the well has run dry. I think we're done here. Caleb, it's great to hear that you want to event source. But not boring.

Right.

Caleb

Not boring. The last episode. Let's talk about event sourcing for the

Aaron

last 30 seconds. Episode. Okay. So you want

Daniel

to event source?

Caleb

Yeah. I do want an event source, and currently, I'm writing code that I know I will hate, and I think event sourcing will save me. But I also think event sourcing is so complicated and Agreed.

Aaron

And is,

Daniel

like What's the thing that's complicated? Give me give me, like, give me 3 in

Aaron

his eyes. Did you see that? Blast him.

Caleb

I'm gonna

Aaron

blast him. I'm gonna blast him. Brows got fur coat.

Caleb

Go put it quick. Go put it.

Aaron

Eyes got big.

Caleb

Okay. You thought you simplified you did simplify things. This is not an insult with making, like, states and events separate. Like, still too complicated. It's, like, what's a state?

Now it's optional. Okay. This is weird. It's, like, I just need one thing, not even 2 things, and, IDs. I saw it.

The for the listener, I did install some event sourcing stuff for, like, an hour just to see if it, like, if it doesn't take me forever to get a hold of, and I was feeling, like, pretty alright. But the buy in, it feels like you need to, like, kinda do stuff to your whole app.

Aaron

You don't.

Caleb

Oh, I have to mess with my users table and stuff.

Aaron

You now don't.

Caleb

And now I'm, like, I'm, like, oh, no. I'm not doing it. Nope. Yeah. You now don't.

There's

Aaron

there's a point where you needed unique IDs on your models, and you don't anymore. And we've actually shipped the change, but not shipped

Daniel

the documentation change that

Caleb

tells you

Daniel

you don't have to do this anymore.

Caleb

Cool. The verb stocks have a lot of good this is what's great about it, and I think is, like, going to be the key to event sourcing. If anybody cracks it, it's gonna be here's what your model looks like. Here's what it looks like with verbs. Here's what your controller looks like.

Here's what it looks like with verbs. Like, I have to see what I know to travel to this new thing. Otherwise, I am incapable of wrapping my head around it. So

Daniel

Yeah. Yeah. No. I think so. Yep.

I really do think that I have to make screencasts in order to pull the docs back out of the screencasts.

Caleb

Sure. Yeah. You

Daniel

know what I'm saying? Because I, every time I try

Aaron

and like write like simple docs examples, I'm like,

Daniel

I don't know that I'm telling the story well enough.

Caleb

Like if you're telling it to a friend, you would do a much better job. So you kind of have

Aaron

to do that and then Yeah.

Caleb

And then take that.

Daniel

I think I just have to go ahead and bite the bullet and do, like, a 5 video series on building an app, and that's

Caleb

just gonna have to be what I do.

Aaron

Make it make it 10 or 20 videos, and yes, I agree.

Daniel

You think 10 or 20?

Caleb

I feel like you could get out the I think verbs, like onboarding experience could be something that somebody could understand like that.

Daniel

Yeah. Totally. Yep.

Aaron

If you're

Caleb

gonna build a whole app, I

Aaron

think you need to I think you need to you need to go all the way, and I think it needs to be 10 or 15. They can be shorter, but it needs to be