Mostly Technical · Feb 6, 2024
Ian & Aaron give out their Super Bowl Predictions, recap the first wave of announcements from Laracon EU, & more.
Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com.
Sent questions or feedback to mostlytechnicalpodcast@gmail.com.
Ian
Hello?
Aaron
Hello, sir. How we doing?
Ian
Good. Hanging in. Busy busy.
Aaron
Hell, no. Hanging in. In. Oh, no. Oh, man.
I forgot
Ian
what you said. I does this count? I don't know. I feel like podcasts different different environment.
Aaron
But Yeah. I guess. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna hit you with I'm gonna hit you with a man hanging in.
Ian
Okay. Give me Oh. Oh, man. Alright. Oh,
Aaron
so, give it
Ian
to us. Yeah. Give it to us. Sit down.
Aaron
I got a diagnosis, or I got a confirmation of a diagnosis I already had, and that is rheumatoid arthritis.
Ian
Right.
Aaron
What?
Ian
Crazy. So weird. Like That is it. Mostly in older people, mostly in women. Like, very weird.
Aaron
So here's the deal. Couple of things. 1
Ian
Yeah.
Aaron
One is I already have type 1 diabetes. I was lucky enough to get that at age 20. Oh. So Wow. This is not know
Ian
that. Okay.
Aaron
Yeah. This is not my first, autoimmune surprise. So it is possible. Like, apparently, they say once you have one, you're more likely to get another, which is just like, that doesn't seem fair. Right?
Why don't we spread the love just a little bit?
Ian
We don't like that. Yeah. No.
Aaron
I already know what it's like. Give somebody else a chance. So that that's a thing. And then the the weird part is, like, there's this blood test for rheumatoid arthritis, and mine has continued to come back negative. Right?
Ian
Weird. Maybe just because you're not that far along with it or the No. I don't know what you're I have no idea
Aaron
what I'm like. This is why I went to the second. I went and got a second opinion because the first one was just like, yeah. It's not all of this stuff, so it's rheumatoid arthritis. I was like Right.
That seems a little fishy to me, doesn't it?
Ian
Right. And checking on that. Yeah.
Aaron
Yeah. So I went to the second one, and she was like, yeah. It's definitely rheumatoid arthritis. It's like, what the heck?
Ian
Okay.
Aaron
So apparently, in, like, 20% of the cases, this marker doesn't show up. And so that's like a thing, but I'm gonna I'm gonna hit you with some woo. So brace yourself
Ian
for
Aaron
some woo woo here. Oh, boy. Alright. Yeah. We'll see if I'm in denial or if I'm, like, a genius.
Ian
I like it.
Aaron
And if I'm in denial, tell me I'm a genius. So here's here's the deal. The timing Yeah. The timing seems a little suspect to me, if I'm gonna be honest. Okay.
Right? So the first time we had twins, about this time into into the twins being alive, I got a herniated disc and was in bed for a couple of weeks until I had surgery. Right. Couldn't walk.
Ian
Okay. It was terrible. That seemed really a good one, though. Like, they they operated on you, so that seems like it was a real thing.
Aaron
Yes. Okay. It was a real it was a real thing. This time, same same time, you know, a couple couple months in. I think we're Right.
Let's see. You know, we're just past 2 or maybe at 2 and a half months, something like that. I get this freaking I get this rheumatoid arthritis out of the blue. So here's the woo. Here's the woo.
The woo is it's all made up. It's all in my head. Okay. Yeah. So here here here's yeah.
Here's here's the so I'm currently currently, everyone listening is like, this poor guy is so far up denial.
Ian
It's it's crazy.
Aaron
So no. No. No. No. No.
Yeah. There's there's some pseudoscience to back it up.
Ian
Okay. Mhmm.
Aaron
So I'm currently trying to crush the arthritis in my mind vice. I don't know. Do you have you ever watched 30 Rock?
Ian
I mean, I did forever ago, but I can't say I watch all of them. You know, I do like it. Man. I know. I know.
So
Aaron
30 rock is my fall asleep show. So I
Ian
love all of it.
Aaron
You know, I'll put it in in in a headphone and fall asleep. There is a there is a bit in 30 rock where Alec Baldwin, who plays this, like, over the top conservative, you know, American male, executive
Ian
Business executive. Hysterical.
Aaron
And Liz Lemon, who is Tina Fey, Liz Lemon plays like this liberal writer of basically SNL. So freaking funny. And Liz is talking about having to go to therapy. And Jack Donaghy says, give me your burdens, Liz, and I will crush them with my mind vice. He, like, he, like, doesn't believe in therapy, and he just crushes everything in his mind.
That's what I'm doing. That's what I'm doing with rheumatoid arthritis.
Ian
Refreshing it
Aaron
with my mind vice. Yeah. Yeah. So foolproof plan so far. So
Ian
Right.
Aaron
You know, I tweeted about this and was like, hey, this sucks. I'm super bummed out. I have rheumatoid arthritis. Bunch of people, super nice, reached out and were like, you know, try being a vegan. Try eating steak only, try not eating anything.
And I'm like, ah, wow. That's really the gamut of things, isn't it? It does.
Ian
Like, go down that road. It's hard. I've been down that road. It's a hard road. Like, there's a lot of, like, conflicting evidence and whatever.
It's a whole another path of stress.
Aaron
And the hard part is the hard part is in most cases, everyone has, like, either a first or second party, experience to support it. So they're like, I went vegan and it cured all my stuff, and someone else is like, I ate only steak for a year, and it cured all my stuff. You're like, shit. That sucks. Right.
So I'm receiving all of this feedback, and I'm like, oh, this is all, you know, helpful helpful to understand the universe of possibilities. Yeah. Filo Hermans, you know, Filo got the guy with good hair.
Ian
Livewire.
Aaron
Yeah. Livewire guy. Yeah. Filo, tweeted at me and said, like, hey. This all seems a little suspect.
Like, I remember the first time you had twins, you had the back thing, and now, you know, you're working all the time. You're in your max effort era, and now out of nowhere, you get this diagnosis. And I'm like, that's
Ian
been my thinking too. We haven't actually talked about it really, but I also agree it's it's suspicious a little bit.
Aaron
It's suspicious. Right? Know about
Ian
the other thing. But even Right? Even just in this thing, it's suspicious because I know you're under, like, tremendous stress. Like, even though you come off as
Aaron
not
Ian
being Yeah. Necessarily looking stressed. Right?
Aaron
But, like,
Ian
it's all of us I know it's a long way. It's a facade because you have you have twins, and you have 2 more twins coming, and you're in maxed out for error. So those things all equal.
Aaron
Dollars. Yeah. Yes. Right. I'm under I'm under tremendous amounts of stress.
One time, I think a few weeks ago, I said out loud to myself, there was no one else in the room. I said out loud, I think I'm at about peak stress right now. I said, I think I was in I was in the in the apartment by myself, and I said, I think this is about as much stress as I can handle.
Ian
Right. Right.
Aaron
So everything's fine. I'm doing great. Everything's awesome.
Ian
Sure. Uh-huh.
Aaron
So so Filo says, it seems suspect to me if you're open to something like a little more, you know, out there, a little more woo woo, I would recommend you look at, doctor John Sarno and his book healing back pain. And I was like, you know what?
Ian
I've heard about this, I think.
Aaron
This came up this came up when I had back pain. You know, I've I actually have the book. I just never read it and went and got surgery instead. You know, classic American. And Right.
So the the theory the theory that that Phil and then Philo and I talked on the phone for, like, an hour. Super super helpful. Great guy. Talked on the phone for, like, an hour. And the basic theory behind it is your brain is trying to protect you from difficult emotions, particularly anger.
And so it's like, it basically creates this pain in your body, this physical manifestation of pain so that you don't address these anger emotions. Right. I was like, man, that is really interesting. Mhmm. And he told me his story.
Filo has a story about how he, like, was in this random physical pain and went to hospitals and had, you know, injections and all this stuff. And then Yep. Went through this this doctor John Sarno thing, and, like, he's pain free now. I'm like, wow. Isn't that something?
Well okay. So I'll stop there, and then I'll tell you how I'm crushing it in my mind vice, but you tell me. Like, it's out there.
Ian
That sounds like the opposite.
Aaron
Yeah.
Ian
Oh, okay. Okay. So have you so well, I guess, are you gonna read the book and try the techniques, or what do you think in there? Or you have a different plan based on this general idea?
Aaron
I have I have, like, the the beginner's guide to, doctor John Sarno from Filo. So I got the download from him. The book actually may I just saw Amazon notification. The book may have been delivered. I bought it the first time around, and then I got surgery.
And I was like, I healed my back pain, so I'm throwing this book away. Right. So oops. Messed up there. So the book is coming, and then I will read that and and apply the the techniques there.
Ian
Yeah. I mean, I'm not I mean, I think your mind is very powerful. Right? Like, people don't especially in the modern era where we have all these distractions and, like, technology and everything, like, you don't think about that stuff and we have medicine and all that. So I definitely believe her in that your mind can cause all sorts of weird and wonderful things.
So, yeah, I mean, it seems reasonable. I think definitely like dealing with stress, like this is where, I mean, def you know, I kind of had my max effort era, if you will, kind of a little younger than you, but like in that general ballpark and had a lot of weird stuff. And some of, most of it ended up having ultimately some causes, but it was a combination of like things I was doing to myself effectively. Yeah. Like whether it's like eating bad or too much caffeine or things like that, where it's like causing issues in other ways that seem unrelated until you like figure it out, which always takes forever.
But still like just the outside of that, right? Like you're the stress feeds into all that because like
Aaron
you're stressed.
Ian
So you're like, well, I gotta stay up late. So I'm drinking more coffee or like I'm stressed. So I'm doing this shortcut. I'm not taking care of myself or I'm eating like McDonald's every day or whatever. Right?
Like all those things like McDonald's that you end up doing to yourself because you're stressed and then have adverse effects on you, which don't aren't easily determined so directly because they're kind of, you know, you wouldn't think they're connected. So yeah, I think like whether it's like therapy, I mean, I wasn't a therapist in that range and that was super helpful, even if it's just to like help get through it, even just actually for that, forget if it even like cures you, but like doing things like that is just useful to help get you through. Another thing that me and my wife did and did heavily back then and even now still do, we actually did it last night, is, transcendental meditation, which sounds a little, like, really
Aaron
just a
Ian
little funky, but it's really just it's
Aaron
Is that like c m meditation? 3rd eye. What is transcendental medicate meditation?
Ian
It's all you do. All it is is, so I know you might have heard of like, what do they call it? There's like a more popular one kind of around the internet of meditations where like you focus on your breathing. I've got to work through it right now, but I don't like that type myself. The TM meditation is just you have a mantra and you just say it to yourself over and over and you just clear your mind.
So like, wow, thoughts come into your mind. You keep saying the meditation thoughts come in your mind. You keep saying the meditation. You have like 20 minutes and it's like unbelievable how powerful it is. Like, it's crazy.
Like you feel so much better after you do it. So yeah, so there's even things like that that, you know, whether they cure things or they just help you get through are actually super useful. But, yeah, I don't I think that this seems like a reasonable approach for you to be trying because like there's no downside and Right. There's no downside. You know, if it chills you out, that's great.
Or if it fixes it, that's even better. Right. So, so, so far it sounds good. So what's with your mind vice end of this?
Aaron
Yeah. So I I told Jennifer, man, I'm transcendental meditation. Am I gonna become a woo guy? That sounds interesting. I'll have it.
Ian
Let me tell you, it's it's it's pretty life changing. Like, I I just did it literally yesterday, so I don't do it. We used to do it, like, every day. That's right. And that was awesome.
And I, we should do it every day still. We don't do it every day. But like just yesterday I woke up early. I was exhausted. I didn't sleep all night before I took my son skiing.
We went skiing. So we've talked about that before. Drag all shit. Whatever. Blah, blah, blah.
Ski down the mountain all day, tired, drive home an hour and 40 minutes, whatever. Fine. I get home. It's like 7 o'clock and just like delirious. And so I'm like, I don't wanna go to bed at 7 o'clock like, and whatever it's, I'm not even gonna be able to sleep there's too much commotion in the house.
Yeah. And it's embarrassing. So we just did a nice little TM 20 minutes. I mean, I was totally restored. Like, I stayed at home at night.
I was like, I'm fucked. What? Yeah. It's it's great. It's perfect.
Aaron
Is your, is your mantra a secret?
Ian
They kind of when you get the lesson, like, we did a class in it. It's like a couple nights or whatever. You go take a class, and they give it to you, and it's like, this is your secret mantra, whatever. It's not like
Aaron
they look like a lot.
Ian
There's like 20 of them. Yeah. They give you the mantra, which is kinda cool because it takes it off of you. Yeah. Yeah.
Like they give you the mantra and, I mean, whatever. I'm sure you this listen. I'm not in the, like, I think you could do anything with this. Right? It would probably work fine.
But I do think the class was useful just in that there's just like some reinforcement of like that. Listen, these thoughts are gonna come in your brain as you're doing this and, like, not to get upset about it and not to be feel like you're failing at it. Like, that's the whole point. So they kinda just walk you through the basic. I mean, it's super simple.
There's nothing to do. You just sit there with your eyes closed, say the mantra, and thoughts come into your head all the time, and you push them back out with the mantra. And that's just how it goes. But there's, like, crazy stuff. So this kind of along the lines with your
Aaron
pain. Yeah.
Ian
So you're sitting there, you're doing the mantra. Right? Whatever.
Aaron
Yeah.
Ian
Like, after 20 minutes, like, you will start hearing, like, your back creak. And so like, as your muscles loosen, like your body is like shifting and creaking because of like all the stress that's just, like, released by you doing this and not thinking. It's crazy. Like, there's and that actually will be distracting because I'm, like, sitting there and it's, like, crack, crack. Like, I'm literally just sitting still, but it's just like, as your muscles loosen, like, that's what happens.
And so
Aaron
Oh, man.
Ian
This is very powerful.
Aaron
Wildest thing.
Ian
Yeah. It's cool. It's like free and easy and whatever. I mean, I would take the class. I would recommend the class, but I'm sure there's 8,000,000,000 YouTube videos on it.
Yeah. Is
Aaron
it like an online class or
Ian
or what? Yeah. I think they the place we did it was we did it in person. Like, this is like 10 or 15 years ago now, but, but I'm sure there's online classes, whatever. I think the place we went to, it does online classes, like, so we can, I can send that over?
But, and again, I'm sure there's other million class. This is not like this is a pretty widely known thing. Yeah. So it's out there and there's there's definitely classes, but you could totally do it online. It's not like being in person didn't really add anything.
Like, it's walking through it online would be fine.
Aaron
Interesting.
Ian
Yes. It was really good.
Aaron
Oh, man. I'm gonna become such a woo guy. You guys y'all are
Ian
gonna be on all yeah. You're gonna have all kinds of special rocks and stuff like that. Yeah. The salt energy, crystal. This will be awesome.
Yeah. I'll be glad we're here
Aaron
with this. Gonna be smudging the room before I start working to remove the bad energy. Wow. Okay. So alright.
Good to know. We'll look that up.
Ian
Yep.
Aaron
The mind vice, I told Jennifer Yes. I'm I'm crushing my pain in the mind vice, and she was like, are you sure?
Ian
Seems like a bad idea, maybe.
Aaron
Like, are you addressing the things, or are you just crushing them? And I was like, oh, no. No. No. No.
I'm, you know, I'm I'm addressing all of the things. It's just like a you know, it's a shorthand. I'm crushing it in my mind. So the first thing I did was I, like, went to coffee shop and Mhmm. Sat outside with my notepad.
I have, like, I really like these Amazon basics 8a half by maybe 14, maybe they're legal size pads, yellow yellow lined notepads. Pads, and I just write
Ian
I love a yellow lined pad. Great.
Aaron
Oh, man. It's so great. You you fold them over the top. You don't tear them off. You fold them over, and then you write down.
You fold the next page over. It just looks I went
Ian
to I went to
Aaron
the coffee shop, and I just wrote down everything that I could possibly even think that I was, like, angry about. And angry is, like, a weird word because I'm, like, I don't feel angry, but, like, maybe the word frustrated is more accurate. So I just wrote down everything I I felt like I was frustrated about, and I just kept going and going and going. And, like, there was some sort of, like, you know, unburdening of that, and that was nice. And then since then, I've done that again.
I went to Barnes and Noble, like a bookstore. It's like Amazon, but in person. Mhmm. And I just I got a coffee and sat down there. Heard of this?
Yeah. It's crazy. Got a coffee, sat down there, you know, wrote everything down again, and, like, that felt really good. And then I'll lay in bed at night before like, as I'm falling asleep, and I'll put on, in my headphones, explosions in the sky. Have you ever listened to them?
Ian
No. I don't know that.
Aaron
It's, it's a it's like a instrumental only band for the most part. It's real, like, ethereal and, you know, kind of like it kinda builds kind of intense. Yeah. It's like, this is oh, this made me feel things. And so I listen to explosions in the sky and, like, run through.
Okay. These are all the things that I'm trying not to address. Let me, like, bring them up and acknowledge them and, like, try to try to not keep them buried. So it's not really crushing in my mind, but it's, like, healthy, you know, it's work. Yeah.
But Right. It's way cooler to say I'm crushing it. So, yeah, that's where I'm at so far. I do have a a counselor that I've seen over, you know, many, many years for many various things, and I'll probably schedule a few sessions with him just to, like, talk and see if there's anything that comes out. Yeah.
See if there's anything that comes out through that, but that's the plan right now. So I don't know if I'm in in denial or if I'm optimistic or some, like, mix of both, but I'm gonna try to I'm gonna try to see if there's a mental aspect to this.
Ian
Yeah. I think that's great. Is there, like, a course of treatment that you're supposed to be starting that then you're gonna wait on, or is that not a thing? Like, I have no idea what the the treatment
Aaron
path is for this. Before I got the final before I got the second, second opinion, I had started a course of treatment. It's, it's just terrifying drug, methotrexate, I think, which is just, like, casually a chemotherapy.
Ian
Names. Yeah.
Aaron
Yeah. Chemotherapy drug as well. So it's like, Right. Oh, it's you know, you're just on a low dose of the chemo drug. You know, like, that doesn't make me feel any better.
So, yeah, we'll see. But, yeah, I'm I'm I'm still on that, and hopefully hopefully, everything will start to die down and I can cut back on some of the drugs eventually, but we'll see.
Ian
Yeah. Well, I like that plan. Definitely. I think, I mean, worst case scenario is you just mentally feel better. Right?
So that's like, that's great. And Yeah. If it actually helps, then that's even better. And yeah. And it would be nice to get, like, a more yeah.
It's unfortunate that they don't it's not that robust diagnosis of like, yes, here's the test. You have it done. Like, so now you have to live with that, like little tickle in your mind of, like, well, maybe it's all BS. And, like Yeah.
Aaron
Exactly. We don't
Ian
actually know.
Aaron
So,
Ian
but, yeah, I definitely think it is suspicious. I mean, like, I totally agree. Like, just obviously you're in a tremendous amount of stress. It's probably some of the most stress you'll ever be in in your whole life is happening right at this moment. So
Aaron
stress ever is right now.
Ian
Right. Yeah. Which is then that that creates some stress. Right? Like, I'm sure many people can relate to this, but it's like if you just objectively look at your life, like, if you are outside yourself looking at it, you're like, oh, you have, like, a good job and a beautiful wife and healthy kids and a house and a thing.
And, like, it's all, like yeah. That's not that that's not stressful, like, in that way. Right? You're like, then you feel bad. You feel stressed about it because, like, obviously, there's people who have nothing and they're homeless and then you tag yourself and you're like, oh, that's terrible.
Right? And but but that's not how the human brain works. Right? It's like, no. It's not everybody feels stressed.
And Yes. Yeah. And you just make it's whatever you're in is stressful to you, and that's just
Aaron
the way it is. Exactly.
Ian
Alright. Well, I like this plan. Now I'm a I'm thumbs up on the woo woo
Aaron
Yeah. Angle the the,
Ian
like, throw in a shot. Yeah. I like it. Alright. Well, thanks for the update here.
I think, you know, nice to share. I think it's everybody's going through stuff, you know, and I think with the Internet a lot of times, and Twitter makes it feel like, oh, everybody's perfect, and they make all the money, and they're beautiful, and they're whatever. They're the smartest dev in the world and this and that. And, but it's everybody's got stuff going on. So, Yeah.
Aaron
And I do I do wanna reiterate that a huge number of people reached out, you both publicly and privately and offered support and advice and their own, like, experiences. And it was it was incredibly, encouraging. So if you're one of those people who reached out, that was, that actually was helpful. So thank you.
Ian
Yeah. That was an awesome, like, thread there on Twitter of everybody chimed in. And a lot of other people who have room arthritis who I had no idea, like people we know in the community and everything. So, really, really interesting there, which is just great to have those connections if it turns out, yep, that's it. Nothing you do helps, and that's then you now you know people you know in the community who have it and what they're doing and all that stuff.
So that's It's
Aaron
nice to not feel alone. So thank you to everyone.
Ian
Yep. Okay.
Aaron
So Alright. Here we go next.
Ian
We got a couple things. We got a follow-up. We got a a little topic I wanna touch on quick, and then we got a bunch of Laravel 11 stuff because we're recording this, like, an hour after Taylor gave his keynote at Lark County U, so we can touch on a bunch of that stuff there.
Aaron
So I don't know. I I don't have this mailbag, and so I wanna read out what's on the card because it's hysterical.
Ian
You don't have access. You just have a guide there.
Aaron
You know, access to actually looking are different things. So on on the Trello card, it says, Todd, wiping follow-up, double wipe technique. So I'm just I'm, like, I'm already I'm already in. So what is, what is Todd saying?
Ian
You're all in on this. Yeah. So Todd emailed us. I won't read the whole email, but it was nice email. Thank you, Todd.
Basically, he hasn't tried your technique. We're talking about the diaper wiping,
Aaron
Mhmm.
Ian
Issues, which generated a lot. People were quite interested in this whole your your your Yeah.
Aaron
Not not
Ian
a lot
Aaron
of people on my side, but, yeah, go on.
Ian
Not a lot, but that's alright. So Todd said that he he has moved to using 2 wipes so that Okay. He has more surface area protection, less chance of anything, you know, getting through the, his barriers. Right. So which, you know, I've, I've done in the past, I think, when there was, like, a real situation, you know, and you gotta you need more protection, and have a glove handy, for instance.
But I wonder what your thoughts are on that. Would you ever move to a double wipe, or are you you're still comfortable with the
Aaron
glove? Would I ever? Always. I am I'm unlimited. Okay.
There's there are no restrictions on wipes.
Ian
Many wipes.
Aaron
A glove plus unlimited wipes. Yes.
Ian
Okay. Well, I think there's a difference. Not it's not about multiple wipes to clean the situation up, which I think everybody's on board with. This is to have 2 wipes, per swipe, let's say, doubling the layers of the wipes. Oh.
So you would double layer in addition to a glove, or are you
Aaron
No. Oh, no. No. No.
Ian
You often need multiple wipes just to finish up what you're doing. But Yeah. Okay. Double layer. I don't
Aaron
I don't do 2 wipes at once, but I'm also not a wipe Right. Conservationist. I'll I'll just, like Right. Just give me more wipes, man. So yeah.
Okay. I see.
Ian
Okay.
Aaron
Yeah. Sing single wipe at a time, unlimited wipes sequentially, for sure.
Ian
Yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I the double wipe, I think, is fine.
Like, I I've used it when I needed it, but I think it's not quite the same as a glove either. They that's not gonna offer you that level of protection. So yeah. No.
Aaron
The the other follow-up on my side is, Yes. Ben Ben Holman sent me a box of gloves and a wall mount so that I
Ian
could find it. That's hard. Yeah. The glove The wall mount was with the wall mount is
Aaron
thing ever, so I could, like, you know, run my own my own hospital box off the wall there. And that's just hysterical. So freaking funny. So I I got it, and I opened it up and was like, there's no note. There's no note.
And it's just a a wall mount and a box of gloves. And I'm just like, what? Who in the world? Oh. So good job, Ben.
Thank you
Ian
very much.
Aaron
So good.
Ian
Yes. Nice community out there. They're just right on it.
Aaron
Just hysterical. So good.
Ian
Alright. Super Bowl predictions. We gotta do it. We're not gonna record again before the Super Bowl. I don't recall.
Are you a sportsball guy or not a
Aaron
sportsball guy? Literally, all I know about the Super Bowl is that, Travis Kelce is in it.
Ian
Okay. That's literally with the angle.
Aaron
That's from a Taylor angle. That's literally all I know. I don't know who the other team is. I know he plays for the Chiefs. I do know that.
Ian
Yes. He does.
Aaron
But beyond that, I couldn't tell you. So I'm gonna go I think I think the here's my prediction. Travis Kelce wins. That's my prediction. And the
Ian
reason Travis Kelsey.
Aaron
Reason is For the w. Yep.
Ian
It's the it's the Lionel Messi story all over again. Like, the setup
Aaron
is too
Ian
It's a lot of setup.
Aaron
There there is
Ian
good setup.
Aaron
It is too per she's gonna fly back from Japan. He's gonna win Japan. He's gonna win the Super Bowl. They're gonna come down. And listen.
He's gonna come down on the field. They're gonna kiss high school cheerleader quarterback. America is finally back.
Ian
Yeah.
Aaron
They're gonna get married. Flag. They're gonna get married soon. She's gonna have a baby. Everybody's gonna be like, we should have babies, and it's gonna be another baby boom.
And So we're gonna restore the boom. Going to be back because Travis Kelce wins the Super Bowl. Yes. Oh, wow. That's my prediction.
Ian
That is the the Yeah. It's a hell of a prediction. So sorry to the other team.
Aaron
Whoever it whoever it may be. Yeah.
Ian
Yeah. That's the the San Francisco 40 niners is the other team.
Aaron
Mhmm.
Ian
Yeah. They don't have Taylor Swift on their side. They don't have Thomas Kelsey on their side. They don't have God on their side. Bleak for them.
Right. Everybody's against them. Yeah. Wow. Okay.
That I love this Mine's
Aaron
a technical analysis. Give me a fundamentals analysis. Give me, like, a actual earnings per share analysis, not just like a chart read.
Ian
If I may sidetrack us for a moment, did you see last night, Taylor Swift announced a new album?
Aaron
She did.
Ian
Which is
Aaron
unbelievable. Yeah. So we have a new Taylor Society. Or poets department.
Ian
Yes. The, oh, jeez.
Aaron
Disaffected, outcast,
Ian
something poets department. Oh, man. Something poets department.
Aaron
Jennifer's screaming at the at the podcast that I can't come up with.
Ian
Oh, there we go. The Home page. Poets. Tortured poets department.
Aaron
Tortured.
Ian
The name is a little bit it's a mouthful there, but
Aaron
I like to like it.
Ian
I like the cover. Yeah. I was on on virtual line for 45 minutes last night buying the vinyl album for my daughter. So
Aaron
Good for you.
Ian
Yeah. I didn't know Shopify has this whole, like, cute thing to not wreck their own servers, I guess, for these people to get these things.
Aaron
Good for them. Where do you go rails?
Ian
Virtual line. Yeah. Rails doing it.
Aaron
So are you calling Chiefs too?
Ian
I'm calling Chiefs. I'm all about Chiefs. I think it's yeah. I think it's they're gonna crush them. I think San Francisco, I'm not feeling it.
Don't have the experience. I don't think they've been pretty shaky the last, you know, end of the year and playoffs here and there. So I'm all in
Aaron
Cisco's so homes
Ian
and my auto and the whole thing. I mean, I'm Taylor Swift, obviously.
Aaron
And Taylor Swift. The story is too good. It's just it's just too it's yeah. It's it's impossible.
Ian
This is why we gotta go full conspiracy theory about how the NFL, you know, is orchestrating all this so that the best outcome,
Aaron
in the system that we could
Ian
be telling us for pointing.
Aaron
You just have to think that there's some sort they're not nobody has talked about it in, you know, in the referee room, but there's some, like, there's some sense of, like, this is the best thing for everyone involved except for the 40 niners if
Ian
I like the chat with this.
Aaron
Right? Everyone. The NFL, everyone involved.
Ian
It's all plausible deniability. Like, nobody talks about it. We all just know that this is what we have to do. Yeah.
Aaron
Yes. Exactly. There's a there's a nose scratch. There's an elbow nudge, but nobody's saying nobody's saying a thing, but everyone knows it's better if
Ian
they win. I just think Mahomes is too good in these big spots. He's too good. Kelsey's too good. They're just gonna they're not gonna make the mistakes.
No, it's gonna be a big w per case.
Aaron
Yeah All right.
Ian
All right. Let's do laribel 11 then, and we'll go maybe kind of smaller to bigger and maybe organize a little bit. Well, this first one's kind of big. Like, where are you on the config debate? Are you a config man?
Are you a no config man? I guess to give a quick summary for people who don't know, Laravel Levin's gonna remove the config folder. So there will be no configs, which I have some questions on in general. Mhmm. And then you can restore them with the artisan command.
And otherwise, you can use, like, more environmental variables now for some of the things that configs used to do. So what do you think there?
Aaron
I'm of I'm of 2 minds about this. First first setting the stage is, this is opt in for well, rather, this is for new applications only. If you have a Laravel 10 and you upgrade, nothing breaks. Don't whine about it. It's totally fine.
Just live your life. Right? So
Ian
Yeah.
Aaron
That that being said, I'm of 2 minds about this. I think this will make it a lot easier. I hesitate. It'll make it a lot less intimidating for a newcomer to pick up the framework because I yeah. There are a lot of files.
You do, you know, composer new Laravel Laravel or Laravel new or whatever you do, and there are there are a lot of files. As Right. As somebody who's used Laravel for a long time, don't even notice them. I just I'm like, yeah. That's the config folder.
There's a lot
Ian
of configs here. Yeah.
Aaron
Don't even see it. Right. So I think that's a good thing. I think, personally, I like I like the config files. Yeah.
I think you you can get into a situation where you have a lot of packages that each want to publish their own config file where it gets a little bit it gets a little bit overwhelming. And for that, I've always liked the, services dot PHP, which is basically Mhmm. Historically like the catchall. Right? So you, like Right.
You put your postmark token there. You put your, you know, mandrill or whatever this algolia. You put all your random Yeah. Crazy stuff in this services.php or whatever. Yeah.
And so you don't end up with a, you know, postmark.php, which is just one, you know, array with one item in it. So Yeah. I've liked that historically. So the new style, I think, is this fluent application builder, where you basically you know, it's like you chain off of app, and then you do with middleware, with routes, with
Ian
Right.
Aaron
You know, exception handling. I don't know if it's lack of familiarity. Like so I wanna say this one's worse because I'm not used to it. But I I I like I like being able to open, you know, a a folder or I'm sorry, a file and see all the middlewares stacked up and know, like, I'm gonna put mine in in this part.
Ian
Right.
Aaron
And I think I think the argument is that most people don't ever touch them on middlewares at all, which is, like, that's probably true. So I don't know. I'm I'm I'm a little I'm a little bit torn. I don't know if it's, like, hanging on to legacy or if the old thing is objectively better. I don't think that's probably true.
It's probably me feeling comfortable with the old thing. But I think once once I see it, once I play with it, once I use, like, the fluent chaining methods, I'll be like, oh, this is totally fine. So I don't know. I I'm not totally sold, but I understand the the use case. What what are your thoughts?
Ian
Yeah. The fluent app builder thing. I guess my only thing is, like, in, like, a big app that seems like it's gonna be potentially like massive, which could be a little bit harder, unwieldy, like compared to just everything's in different files and it's a little more you're focused on just that piece when you're in there. But on the flip side, that one I'd like better than the config removal, I'd say mostly because it's also like then also my app is all in one spot. Like the bootstrapping of the app is like all here.
And so like, when I know I have to deal with something boot strapping the app, like, now I can go there. And that's Yeah.
Aaron
That's fair.
Ian
The central spot sort of, which I haven't used this. I haven't that's my understanding of like seeing some screenshots and stuff. That's what I'm taking from it. So so I think I'm okay with that. And then the other you know, in general, like, to to go against Taylor on any of these type of architectural decisions, like, I don't wanna be that guy because he's always you know, he's really good with these things.
Right? Yep. So we we trust in Taylor and his, taste. So, in general, that I feel okay about that. I guess the config thing to me is like, it's kind of like read the docs.
Like, I feel like the config is like infinite number of times I've gone to a config and figure out what's going on. And so I guess then my only concern is, like, are the where do you do that now? And so is it, like, presumably the Laravel based, like Laravel's own configs, the documentation will be updated to like every potential configuration item will now be actually documented. Because I think that's not really true now down to the granular level of, like, literally everything. And also, I think you would need some kind of new kind of pages basically to where, like, here's a list of all the things you can put in the environment.
Right? So that there's a way to look that stuff up without having to find it in the doc somewhere and things like that. So there's a little, like, questions like that I have around, like, the documentation and finding things and understanding what's even possible. Just making sure you can still do that because now you can't just go look in the config and kind of see that. I think so I'm not worried about that with Laravel because obviously, like, they're gonna just be on top of it and it'll all be documented.
Well, however that shakes out. I do think with packages, maybe it's a little bit more iffy. Like, sometimes, like, the package, like, the D the docs are in the config file. It's like, here's what I use. Yeah.
What it does. Right. And like, now, like if that's not there or obviously it could be published there. Right. I, I guess guess I feel like in the end, everybody's gonna have a config folder.
I don't know if there's really gonna be a lot of apps with no config folder, because I think as soon as you use a couple packages, you're probably gonna have a config folder. So I don't know, but I guess it's like that first run experience. It's just that tiny bit cleaner, which I guess is fine. But I'm I'm a big config man, so I do like the comps.
Aaron
But I think the timing is probably
Ian
right. My comps.
Aaron
The timing is right because people I think people are starting to explore Laravel more. Like, people outside the community are starting to explore Laravel more, and so the timing is probably good for that to, like, simplify and streamline so that they don't come in and immediately eject because they're overwhelmed. So
Ian
Right.
Aaron
You know, we we trust in Taylor. There.
Ian
Trust in Taylor. That's kind of the shorthand version of that. Oh, okay. So we have the moving of like your console stuff to the routes file, which I really like this. I don't know how you feel about that, but I don't like having to go up into the kernel.
It just feels, like, weird to have to go up there. It's like I don't ever go in that folder, but not to go in there and change something, and I don't even know where it is.
Aaron
Love the kernel.
Ian
So give me a you love the kernel. So you're not a console routes by now. Okay.
Aaron
Nope. Love the kernel.
Ian
Oh, interesting.
Aaron
That it's called the kernel makes me feel like a real makes me feel like a real developer.
Ian
Yeah. We're really programming here. We're firing rockets.
Aaron
Yeah. That's in the console kernel. Not no. No. Not the HTTP kernel.
The console kernel.
Ian
Yeah. That that's a little bit of a problem there too.
Aaron
Yeah. That's a problem. I love it. I love it. I like I like that it's over there.
I like that it's a discreet place. I don't think of the CLI entry point as a form of a route. I just don't think of it that way. The the word in my mind, the word route is strictly bound to web. And so whenever I'm on the command line, I don't think of it as a route.
And so having it in the routes, what what is it now? Routes console? Is that where it goes?
Ian
Yes. Routes
Aaron
console. Like it. Don't like it one bit. Anti?
Ian
It's a no it's a no on that. Okay.
Aaron
I'm a no.
Ian
I don't know if you're I don't think there's a way out. I don't know if there's a way out on that one either. Oh, I mean, it must be backwards compatible, I guess. I'm not sure.
Aaron
Surely surely it is. Yeah. I
Ian
wonder if that's true. That might not be true.
Aaron
Bet Then
Ian
you have to look at 2 spots. I don't know. I kinda think it's not backwards compatible.
Aaron
My guess my guess is that the new, console kernel looks for the routes console.php and loads them from there. Well, the That's my guess.
Ian
The little magic internally.
Aaron
A little bit of indirection, but I bet because you have to imagine if you upgrade from 10 to 11, you're not you're not killing the console kernel. You're probably just not
Ian
Could be in there. User LAN
Aaron
file. I
Ian
don't name this file
Aaron
over to over there. No way. Yeah. I bet the base I bet the base console kernel just looks for the console routes the the routes slash console. That's my guess.
Ian
Alright. Well, we will see. That'll be interesting. See. We're bound we're going through here.
Eager loading limits. Your database man, what do you think about eager loading limits?
Aaron
Is this a Stoudemire? Is that who did that?
Ian
I don't know. I don't even know who that is, so I don't know.
Aaron
The guy that that's the guy that does all the wacky, eloquent relationships.
Ian
He's down there. Okay.
Aaron
Yeah. He's, like, the eloquent the the the wacky, eloquent genius. I don't even know his real name, but it's Soudemeyer. I think all the package names. It's great.
Haven't super had a need for that very often.
Ian
Yeah.
Aaron
But I love that I love that you're able to do that. So if you wanna load, you know, a post with 5 comments and not potentially, you know, 250 comments, Great. I think that's awesome. And the fact that the fact that somebody is willing to muck around with Eloquent and improve it Right. That that terror terrifying, you know, thousands and thousands of lines of code and still make it work.
I'm like, hell, yeah. That's awesome. So I don't know. Is that something you need very often?
Ian
I don't think so in general, but this I kinda wanna ask about this too because it's like so I being, you know, having been around for a while, I still tend
Aaron
to think in years is what it
Ian
looks like for. Years here. I still tend to I'm very sequel oriented in my thinking about the databases, about queries. Like, it's hard for me to be, I'm just, I'm not all the way onto active record. Like I like active record and I use it everywhere.
Right. But at the same time, like, okay. If I have something more complicated to do, I have a hard time thinking about like, okay, I gotta get this relationship and I gotta do this thing with it. I'm gonna have to look up how to do the thing to make the relationship do the other thing I need
Aaron
to do, like drop it down.
Ian
Whereas, like, I know if I get I can just do it in SQL and, like, I I mean, I don't you know, I'll use, like, the DB, whatever, well, you know,
Aaron
the base build. Whatever, but, like,
Ian
yeah, I'll go through there and like, not always, it depends exact, you know, this is very particular on the situation, but almost always my first thought will be, this is how I would do it with a regular SQL query. And then depending on what I'm doing, I might backwards, bring that into eloquent and be like, okay, well, how would I do this in eloquent? Right. And so I'll do that. But I guess where are you on that?
Are you a Eloquent first man? Is that where you go to first and you're like, it's all in there. You can see it all in your brain, or do you go to sequel first in your brain?
Aaron
I am an eloquent first man being being less advanced Very good. Less advanced in years. I think I
Ian
think purely career in there.
Aaron
Yes. Exactly. I think purely from an eloquent first standpoint. And I I think this is like there's the, there's the person like you that see thinks sequel first, and then there's the person that thinks eloquent only, which I think is a problem. If you think, I don't know what it's generating under the hood.
I'm just doing these eloquent calls. That's bad news first. I think I think you can be you can be incredibly productive and still performant if you know what is the the sequel underlying sequel is, but still know how to drive eloquent to make that thing happen. And that's that's where I like to be is I'm like, I don't I rarely ever wanna drop down to the DB facade. Like, that that's I'm trying to avoid that unless Yeah.
Unless I'm not populating unless I'm not populating models, in which case I feel like, oh, I'll I can drop down. But if I'm, like, trying to bring models back and pop you
Ian
Right.
Aaron
Trying to bring rows back to populate models, then I'm like, oh, I don't wanna I don't wanna drop down. I wanna use pure active record in that case. So
Ian
Mess with all that. Yeah. And there's always, like, the middle ground where you can, like, obviously do the base kind of DB stuff off the the model and blah blah blah. I just saw recently like a curse bomb Kirschbaum, I think, has a library to, like, convert some of it into joins so you can actually do joins, which is sometimes faster than the way Eloquent works Power joins. In certain scenarios, which is kinda interesting.
Is that what it's called? Power joins? Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty cool.
I haven't actually used it, but it looked pretty cool.
Aaron
Yeah. I think I think it's
Ian
Might remove the need to drop down.
Aaron
Yeah. They've got one called power joints, and I think Stoudemire has a couple that do something similar in terms of performance.
Ian
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's just the thing is we get in these spots where it's like, you know, the efficiency on a large amount of data and things like that. Like, obviously, the active record stuff is totally fine when you're just dealing with small stuff.
It's like, who cares? Whatever. But sometimes it is a problem if you're dealing with millions or 100 of millions of rows or whatever and
Aaron
you
Ian
gotta have it dialed in a little bit more. But, Yeah. So okay. So eager loading limits. Good.
Nice little addition. I do think it's nice to have, like you said, if you're trying to stay in eloquent land that that, there's something that's selling and kick you out of eloquent land, previously that now you can stay in.
Aaron
Yep.
Ian
Alright. The big ones here, herd pro. Are you a herd man?
Aaron
Tell me, I am a herd man. Love herd. Big fan of herd. I'll set the herd stage when you hit me you hit me with herd pro. Herd is, like, the first in a half party.
I it's written by the Beyond Code guys, which is Marcel and crew, people, because Diane is there as well. So it's like the all in one Laravel development environment. You don't have to have PHP in your system. You don't have to have anything on your system. You download HEARD.
It'll set up PHP, NGINX, DNISK mask. I think that's it. It's written on top of Laravel Valet, but with, you know, a a lot more on top of it, but spiritual successor to Laravel Valet. You can have different PHP versions for different applications or different, like, projects on your system, which is super nice. And so I've been you know, since they released it, I deleted I tried to, like, delete everything PHP related from Homebrew, which which Right.
Was its own struggle. Mhmm. But, yeah, love HEARD, use HEARD all the time. HEARD Pro is what? What have you seen so far?
Ian
HEARD Pro is, looks really good. It's, a nice little addition. I think the main thing is, like, Beyond Code, who is, like, the most productive. I don't know how Unbelievable. Developers are this productive.
Like, I I have one app. It's taken me 20 years to get this far with it. And, like, I'm trying to work on a new version of it. It's gonna take me, like, 3 years to do that. Like, I don't know.
They're just producing apps, like, left and right. But okay. Anyway, yeah. They also have another app that lets you, like, have one of those, local email testing environments where, you know, you can see how the email was sent and what it looked like, blah blah blah. So it seems like they've kind of bundled that engine into Heard, which is a super smart move.
Very smart, I think. And then it also has some other features, like you can do your dump DD dumps, can show them in like a native window outside the context of the app, which is cool. Like, I've tried using ray, but I haven't totally gotten into it. I mean, I own it. I have it, and I use it where I really need to, but I'm still just to, like, go to the page, break the whole page with my DD dump, and hit the little arrows.
But, Yep. I'll give it a shot in Herd Pro. Maybe it'll stick better there. And it's got some other, like, debugging, little niceties and things. I think all the core stuff, I believe is all still there and unchanged.
There's not like you're you know, they didn't remove anything or anything like that. Like, you still just use it free and manages your PPP versions and all that. But just adds this nice some debugging stuff, basically, and the email stuff and the thing that oh, and searching through logs, as well, which is actually pretty handy. So
Aaron
Yeah. That's pretty nice.
Ian
Yeah. $99. I actually have a little beef with how they've set this up.
Aaron
Okay. We love beef. Beef is content.
Ian
Europeans in them. We gotta get these Europeans Americanized because they just sometimes they just get a little too nice, and I don't like it. So, like, you pay $99 for her pro or 2.99 for team for pro. And it's not a subscription. It's not auto renewing, but it's also not one time.
So like, like there'll be new versions. And if you don't renew manually, then you won't get the new version. And I assume it's gonna tell you or whatever, but, like, I just wanna subscribe and never think about this again and just charge me $99 a year forever. And if I need to cancel it for some reason, whatever, then I'll go cancel it. But like, I don't wanna have to go in and buy herd every year.
Like, just let me buy it forever, you know, on a subscription, not, you know, not a one time price. Just let me pay $99 a year forever. That's what I wanna do. So a little annoying beef there. Like, I see this a lot.
I think some of Spatty stuff is the same way. Like, it's going every year. Hey. Like, just let me subscribe. I wanna subscribe.
Aaron
So the the on the FAQ, is Heard Pro a subscription? When you buy Heard Pro, you can use all pro features for 1 year. If you're happy with them, you can manually renew your license to keep advanced features, or it automatically falls back to the free version. Herd Pro does not renew automatically.
Ian
I want it. I want automatic renewing. Give it to me. Okay.
Aaron
I see that. So this is the same as table plus. Although, I will say this is different, perhaps. This is different than table plus, which is, my my database GUI of choice. Table plus, you stay on the last version of your paid version frame.
Ian
Right. Which that doesn't make sense. Yeah.
Aaron
Falls back to free, which is a little strange, in my opinion.
Ian
A little strange.
Aaron
This is the same pricing as Laravel Nova, which, you know, exerts downward pressure on the whole ecosystem. But, so but I think Nova is the same way. You retain the last paid version. Like, you can continue to use it forever just without updates. Mhmm.
Yeah. So this is a this is a little bit this is a little bit strange. I think Sketch was the last desktop app. Now Sketch, you keep the last free version as well. ScreenFlow as well.
And a
Ian
lot of times if you have this model, it's also that, like, you pay then again for the next major version or, you know what I mean? It's like version 1, on you pay $99 and then whenever version 2 comes out, you're gonna pay $99 again or 1.99 for
Aaron
whatever the
Ian
price is. But this is, like, basically a subscription in that, like, I needed to work forever, and I wanted to work forever, and I wanna pay you forever. But now I have to go in and manually pay you forever, and I just wanted, like, just not have to do that.
Aaron
So Yeah. Table table plus table plus is subscription. Sketch is major version and ScreenFlow is major major version. The major version makes sense to me. Nova is major version because you keep you retain access to the paid stuff Mhmm.
Even after you stop paying, but you don't get updates. So
Ian
Right.
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, from, like, a pure pricing perspective, $99 is awesome. Yeah. I mean, that's, like, a
Ian
no brainer. I'm just gonna go buy it. And, like, I already paid for the other mail thing, so I think it's like it's been kinda getting it for free, essentially. So, yeah.
Aaron
Yeah. So this is this is so like, this is interesting to me. They've got heard.laravel.com. Right. So it's like, yeah.
It's, you know, under the it's kinda like live wire in that regard. It's like a a a blessed project, but not written by Taylor. It's written by beyond code beyondco.de, so beyond code. And what is the name of their mail thing? I can't even find that.
Ian
can't even remember it.
Aaron
They've got expose, which is, like, in Grok. They've got invoker. It's actually not listed anymore. I wonder if they just killed it and rolled
Ian
it into Hello. H e l o.
Aaron
H e l o. Yeah. I don't see that listed on there.
Ian
It's on software. It's at the bottom, but I don't know if it's like
Aaron
It's not listed on their bento box on the home page.
Ian
Mhmm. It still looks like it's for sale, $49.
Aaron
Yeah. There you go. H e l o. Beautiful way to debug and test your emails. Yeah.
I wonder if they're, if they're downplaying it now to get Laravel Heard. Anyway, they make great better. They make great do
Ian
it obviously.
Aaron
Stop stuff. So I'm excited I'm excited for Heard Pro.
Ian
Yeah. Definitely gonna buy that. No brainer. And then the, kind of big announcement Taylor had was Laravel Reverb. So, reverb.laravel.com.
Which is interesting because I've been looking around at this and the new next generation help spot stuff. Like, I we could have a whole conversation about this. I'll be curious to get your thoughts. But basically, the idea of, obviously, of things we obviously, chat apps would often use something like this where you have a WebSocket connection and you wanna be able to have instantaneous chatting. You might have notifications go out over something like this, a web socket connected service, which is what this is for anybody doesn't know that about reverb is like a webpusher.com, but open source, you run it yourself.
Aaron
Yep.
Ian
Setup. And there's really not that many services that offer this in some way that's kinda surprising. There's, like, pusher.com, and I think Trello kinda has a thing, and there's a couple open source ones. There wasn't like I've just been looking around at this recently. I thought there would be more kinda going on and there's not really that much going on with it, which I was a little bit surprised about.
So this is coming at a perfect time for me. But, yeah, I don't know. So in general, I'm I'm looking forward to using it most likely. Although, I do have a question for you about that. Before we get to that, what are your reverb kind of thoughts?
Have you used this type of tool before?
Aaron
Yeah. We've made use of Pusher extremely heavily. I think we're on, like, the you know, back at the property tax company, we're on, like, the $300 a month plan because we're just
Ian
Right.
Aaron
Blasting it with stuff. And Pusher is Pusher is awesome. And I I think I looked around at the time, and there wasn't there wasn't anything compelling in, like, the open source self hosted, space. Since then, Socketi, I think s o k e t I, has come along,
Ian
and I
Aaron
feel like that's an open source, I think it's open source node maybe, but I think it can also run on, like, Cloudflare Workers and stuff like that. Socketi WebSocket. Let's see what their domain is. Socketi. App.
So it's a fast open source WebSocket server. And I think this has been used somewhat heavily in the Laravel ecosystem, but I've always just opted for pusher because it's not something I wanna manage.
Ian
Right.
Aaron
But this is really, reverb reverb is really interesting because, one, I think this is like, this displays why Laravel wins and continues to win. Because if you look at, like, you know, reverb.laravel.com, there's a a box called seamless integration, and it says develop with Laravel's broadcasting capabilities, which is the link, deploy with Reverb's first party forge integration, link to forge, monitor with baked in support for pulse, linked
Ian
to The
Aaron
whole ecosystem.
Ian
Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron
Whole freaking ecosystem. The integration, the deployment, the monitoring, everything. And so now you're not, like, running this running this, you know, red headed stepchild of a WebSocket server that you're, like, deploying on Cloudflare Workers or something. You run it
Ian
Nobody knows how it works or whatever. Yeah.
Aaron
Laravel's thing, it's in forge. They say you know, it's not released yet, but they say you can, you can scale horizontally using Redis, and it's like, I just don't see why I would use anything else besides this now. So those are those are my initial thoughts. What are having been in the market for this, what are you thinking?
Ian
Yeah. I think that's kinda what I'm thinking about. It's like I mean, there still is the appeal pusher in that, you know, ultimately, this is still one more thing that you are responsible for. And in, like, a production environment with a small team, it's like, whatever. If that goes down, you have to remember what's going on with it and figure it out and fix it and whatever.
Like on the flip side, this is like, it seems like it's, it's a pretty mature area of internet development at this point. And it's not trying to do a lot here. It's like literally just passing messages around. So it's presumably fairly safe, type of thing. But so I don't know.
Once it comes out, I'll definitely be looking at it a lot more. It's I mean, obviously being pusher compatible is super nice because it's like, well, I should just switch over to pusher or I could switch from pusher to this and, like Yep. It'll be seamless and magical, which is super nice.
Aaron
Or I can run this locally and then use Pusher for production grade.
Ian
Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Right. It is tricky because like pusher is not expensive really, you know, it's like, yes, it can be 100 of dollars, but like in the big scheme of like a business app, it's not a lot of money.
So, it's not like you're saving a ton of money and you're inheriting all the responsibilities. So that's the part that's a little bit tricky. But, you know, pusher was sold kind of recently to one of these, like, I forgot what you call it. You know, like, you know, consortiums of, like, companies that's buying up private
Aaron
equity equity
Ian
company that's, buying up a bunch of b to b stuff. So I don't know. I mean, probably flash
Aaron
and burn. Yeah.
Ian
Right. Who knows? Like, so that's a little bit little bit there. That's a little bit, I don't know. But, so in this regard, though, so I haven't made a final decision on what we're gonna use, and this obviously changes it a little bit.
But also, what are your thoughts on I'm sort of tempted.
Aaron
Oh, love it already.
Ian
I'm sort of tempted.
Aaron
This sounds like a scheme, and I love
Ian
this scheme. This is scheme. Because, like, this is all fine, but we also have all this, like, scalability. Like, if if, deploying my app on vapor or even just really fast servers, right? Like lots of capacity very fast servers Like can you just get away with polling?
Because, like, the polling model is very nice because it's like Nice. You make a regular request every time you understand the flow that's happening. Yep. There's no magic. There's no, like, you missed the message and now something's off for somebody and, like, the chat's weird because somebody's missing 3 messages.
It's like, no. I'm just pulling. I'm pulling every time. If I miss if something breaks on the next hole, it'll just be fixed and everything will be there. So I'm sort of playing with the idea of, like, my needs are not such that it's gonna be like, oh, man.
There's, you know, a 100000 users, and they're all simultaneously chatting and doing all kinds of stuff and, like, okay. Whatever. That's a little different. And so, yes, a 100,000 polls might require actually, like, dedicated infrastructure and might get expensive on the polling or whatever. But if it's like whatever.
At any one time, there's a 100 people or a 1000 people even at the peak. Like, I feel like that maybe you could just handle that with polling, and maybe you can make it seamless enough if you're polling fast enough to be okay. I don't know. What do you think
Aaron
there? I love a scheme.
Ian
Love a scheme. Doug, don't worry.
Aaron
I love a scheme. This is not a crazy scheme. It's not crazy. Right? This this eliminates an entire piece of infrastructure, which I'm I'm good with.
I think my only my only requirement, I think, in this case would be you'd have to run Laravel Octane, in my opinion.
Ian
Which I would be doing.
Aaron
Okay. So if you're if you're running Octane and for the uninitiated, Octane keeps your entire Laravel application booted. And so, you know, booting an entire Laravel application, PHP destroys the world and recreates it on every request. Booting Laravel can take anywhere between, I don't know, what do you think, a 100 to 200 milliseconds?
Ian
Oh, at
Aaron
this time?
Ian
It's not it's not a 100
Aaron
milliseconds. Think so?
Ian
No. But it's still something. It's still 20 milliseconds or whatever. Yeah.
Aaron
20. Wow. So if Octane keeps it all booted and in memory and all you do is run application logic every time, I say pull away, baby. I think that's great.
Ian
The only other thing I had a concern about well, I think you can get around this with being smart in a few spots is, like, obviously, you don't wanna destroy the database. Yep. So, like, could there I think it's the kind of thing that maybe there's, like, a, the cash is in the middle there. So it's really mostly going against redis. You know, and maybe like when it ingests updates the red as cash or it clears red as cash and then it hits the server if there's been a change or whatever.
There's some we could I thought there's a
Aaron
strategy there. You could get schemey there for sure. Yeah.
Ian
You could scheme there to keep the database a little bit protected from having a lot of data there. But, I mean, the database has to be kind of protected either way, even if you use pusher because like, I wanna log all these things regardless. And so there's still gonna be stuff flying around potentially, to some degree. So alright. So I I got the errands of approval to research further.
Aaron
Here's another here's another thing you could try because I I have also felt I have also felt a little bit of unease relying on the events coming for fear of of, you know, them dropping 1 or me dropping 1. Who knows who's at fault? I feel the same way about webhooks, honestly. Give me give me anything that I can give me a slash events that I can poll against, and I feel a lot I feel a lot safer.
Ian
Yes.
Aaron
One one, I think, strategy you could use is, if you wanted to if you wanted to, like, do a slightly smarter polling that's not quite as, like, brute force, you could use the WebSocket as basically a notification to poll. Right? So if Mhmm. I don't know exactly what your what your, like, use case is, but if nobody's chatting for 30 seconds or a minute or 2 minutes, you don't have to poll that whole time. Yeah.
But you could when somebody chats, you could fire the the WebSocket system. Something happened. I'm not telling you what it is, and, you know, maybe you tell them or don't. But, historically, I've said, like, I'm I'm not telling you what has happened. You now need to go hit the endpoint
Ian
Kick it off the end.
Aaron
Source of truth Yeah. That says, like, give me all of the events. Because one thing I don't wanna do is duplicate, like, who's in charge of the truth of the events. Yeah. I don't want the web socket to be like, here's an event and me to hit the endpoint and say, here's a different event and be like, wait.
Right.
Ian
And try to merge things together in a crazy way. No. We're not doing that. Yeah.
Aaron
So the WebSocket just serves as a notification. Like, something has happened. It's been 4 and a half minutes that you weren't pounding the server asking for updates. But now now something has happened, and you should ask for an update.
Ian
I think I like that because I thought about doing something like a a back off or something like that. Like, nothing yeah. Like, right. So we're gonna pull every 2 2 seconds, then every 4 seconds or whatever. Some some back off scheme.
But, but then you still could have a delay there when someone starts back up. So Yep. I like that. This is interesting.
Aaron
And you could say you could say, like, at max poll every 30 seconds, even if I don't get a
Ian
notification. Yeah. Yeah. Not so big deal.
Aaron
If the fear is missing things, then you can say, well, I'm just gonna do it every 30 seconds, but not every 2 seconds.
Ian
Right. Yep. Alright. I think we're back on it. I like this.
This is good. Good. Right?
Aaron
It's
Ian
a good speed, though. I
Aaron
like that.
Ian
A little ways from actually implementing this, so it'd probably be a a little bit before, I double back on how it's going, but I will, do that when I get there. So the only other thing then was, like, there was a couple of little things like, being able to update your encryption.
Aaron
I I see that.
Ian
Things you've encrypted with the application key. Yeah. Now you can rotate your application key more easily without you having to write a bunch of code to manage that. I'm not entirely clear how
Aaron
that works. No idea how they implement
Ian
it to that. So the the the Yeah.
Aaron
Yeah. The use case is, like, you can roll your application key, but still receive values that were encrypted with a prior key. And that is really interesting. Very useful. Because, right, historically, you'd roll your key, and I think everything gets invalidated.
Like, everybody gets logged out. Everything every payload that is out there is no longer useful. It's like it really is kind of like a a nuclear option. But now they're saying you can just roll it, and it'll be graceful.
Ian
I guess. I don't know. I'm unclear a little bit. It'll be interesting to see after this to dig in when they have docs and stuff because it's not clear to me if you just have both keys on there and it's just doing it live. It's like, oh, I can't encrypt this.
Let me try the old key. I kinda think that's how it almost has to be. Right? Because, like, it doesn't proactively know everywhere I've used the encrypted functionality. Right.
So like, I assume it's doing that, but yeah, I think that was really cool because that's definitely a thing that comes up. Or if you have some type of incident and you wanna roll your keys and go, like, you could just do it instead of it being, like, a whole now we gotta construct a bunch of scripts to update everything that we have encrypted on a file or wherever.
Aaron
Like a signed URL that's been sent out in an email.
Ian
Or something like that.
Aaron
Right? Never gonna get you're never gonna get access to that. It's in their inbox.
Ian
Yeah. Dead. Yeah. So, yeah, that's really cool. Yeah.
I don't know. Were there other stuff you saw that you wanted to touch on here? I mean, there's a lot in there.
Aaron
No. I don't think so. I think one talk I'll wanna watch, when it comes out is Jess did a deep dive on the pulse database architecture stuff, which I've poked around with, and I just wanna hear her talk about it. She's she's so smart. Yeah.
And that's such a good code base that I just wanna hear her talk about it. But, yeah, beyond that, not not yet. I'll probably watch all the talks when they come out. I know Daniel did another one on, event sourcing with his new verbs package, which I think the ultimate test for that package is gonna be, does it make me wanna use event sourcing? Because I just don't wanna do it.
Ian
It just Interesting. It's so interesting, but it's so I just never have, like, this is the this is the project where I'm gonna, like, take this out.
Aaron
And it's
Ian
just like, just doesn't happen. But I do
Aaron
No.
Ian
In theory, sort of like some of the ideas around the all the different methodologies that you hear about. You're like, oh, that's cool. But then it's like, I could just do it the regular lab all way, and, like, nobody knows how it works. And, you know, it's fine and
Aaron
it works,
Ian
and it's good.
Aaron
So He he has good taste, and he's he's set a high bar for this package. So we'll see if I look at it, and I'm like, yeah. Let's do some event sourcing. It
Ian
does seem like it take takes some of the rough edges off and simplifies some of the, thoughts, like, terminology and stuff around it
Aaron
to be
Ian
a little more focused.
Aaron
Terminology, aggregate, route, and projections. I'm like, no.
Ian
Right. No, there's no. Sure. Astronaut showing off stuff. No chance
Aaron
I'm doing an aggregate. I'm sorry.
Ian
Oh, man. Yeah. I'll be excited to watch these talks. It seems like there were some good ones. And I guess they have one more day tomorrow.
Right? So there'll be some more stuff happening. So alright, man. Well, sounds good. I think we covered a lot here today.
Aaron
Yeah. A lot of technical.
Ian
A lot of technical. We got personal I I think it's 50 50 episode. We got Yeah. We have to woo
Aaron
hard at the beginning.
Ian
We got some meditation in. We got some Laravel tech specs in. We got we got it all covered. All your bases. One stop shopping.
Aaron
What more could you want from us, people? That's it.
Ian
We're giving you everything we got here. That's right. Alright. Thanks a lot, Aaron, thanks a lot. Everybody follow us, most technical dot com, most of tech pod, most of technical podcast at gmailot com.
We do read it or at least I read it. Someday we'll get Aaron read it. Sunday. When he's got less going on, he'll put him in there. But thanks a lot, everybody, and, see you probably next week.
Aaron
See you.