Full Stack Founder · Jan 10, 2024
Brian
You're about to hear my conversation with Aaron Francis, where we bat around the differences between running a product's business versus running a Hey. Before I roll today's episode, here's my real time update on what I'm working on. I'm recording this update on March 8, 2024. Well, if you've been following my story heading into this year, then you know I'm in a transition phase. I'm exploring some new directions to take in my business.
And this month, I decided to come back to my roots and focus my energy on what I do best. And that's building new products. So I've launched what I'm calling a product studio. And I'm calling it instrumental products. It's where I get to partner with fellow founders, creators, and SaaS companies on taking new product ideas from concept to launched.
And, you know, since I'm a full stack designer and developer, my focus now is on continuously building new software products and continuing to grow that muscle. Sometimes I'm building products with clients, sometimes with partners, and building some new products of my own to grow out my portfolio at instrumental products. And as always, I love to build in public on my YouTube channel and on Twitter. And, you know, share the process of taking new product ideas to life. So that's what I'm up to.
Building products in public. And I'm still running my SaaS product Clarity Flow, which is doing its thing this year. Alright. So that's my update. You can follow along with me on Twitter.
I'm at cashjam. I'd love to hear from you if you have any feedback for anything that I'm working on, especially this show on the podcast. And with that, let's get into today's show. Creator business. Let's get into it.
So I'm about to roll the interview with my friend Aaron Francis, where we talked all about the differences between running a product's business versus running a creator business. And of course, in a lot of cases, there's a there's a lot of overlap between the 2. We recorded this conversation on November 16th, 2023, and and I think it was a really good one. So here we go. Here is my conversation with Aaron.
Enjoy. Aaron Francis. Great to connect with you. Like we were talking off air just now. I feel like I feel like I just got off a different call with you because I just, like, stopped listening to your podcast, like, 45 minutes ago, but here we are live in the flesh.
Aaron
Yeah. It's good to be here. I was just listening to you and Jordan also. And I was I listened to that episode the other day, and you said my or I think Jordan said my name when he was talking about, you know, setting up a a studio and a workspace and YouTube. And I was like, hey, these are my friends talking about me, but I can't talk back.
Brian
So it's it's good to
Aaron
be here where I can talk back to you.
Brian
It's so funny. Right? Like, that happens to me, like, a a bunch. Like, somebody whether it's, like, someone like you and Ian or or someone else would, like, mention me me by name in in their podcast. And it really takes me by surprise.
Like Mhmm. You know, because I I usually tune into to a bunch of folks in our industry and then and we're talking about and we're thinking about a lot of the same topics and and it just re and it's almost like, wait, did I hear that correct? It's so weird. Yeah. And, like, we feel like we're famous, but we're totally not.
It's like a group of, like, a 100 of us who just listen to each other's podcast.
Aaron
That is exactly right. Yeah. It's I I found that, like, you get you get unfair, you get unfair, like, accolades or perception by having a podcast. It's like, oh wow, he's got a podcast. It's like, yeah, but it's the same people.
It's like the same, like you said, 50 or a 100 people, and we all have podcasts and we all talk to each other. So it's like, I don't think it really counts for very much, but boy, is it fun.
Brian
I I always make, the the fun joke, which I think is sort of true when I'm at micro comp or you and I got to hang out in person for the first time Mhmm. This last time. I always feel like when I'm there, like, basically, all of our podcast listeners are there in the room, and and that's all of them. There's there's not many more outside of that room. Room.
Aaron
You know? Yep. That's exactly right. And when you tell, like, when you tell someone outside of our industry, like, maybe like a normal person that's not one of us that you have a podcast, they're like, oh, wow. You're like, you know, armchair expert or you're like, you know, any of the NPR podcasts, and you kinda have to explain,
Brian
no. It's very, very different than that. Or or my parents, they're like, oh, podcast. Oh, that's nice. Yeah.
I'm not interested in that one. Yes. Yes. Exactly. With my wife.
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. I asked my wife if she watches my, my videos or listens to my podcasts. She's like, I don't think so. Which one?
Yeah. I didn't.
Brian
What's the name of it again? Oh, like the one that I've been doing for like 10 years. Yeah. No. Yeah.
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Brian
So I I feel like you've been you've become known for many things in in this industry. But one thing that has come up again and again from your, from you talking about it or on the podcast airwaves or Twitter and whatnot is this, this phrase that, that I think you, you sort of coined at least for yourself with this era of maximum effort.
Aaron
Mhmm.
Brian
And, for when I first heard you talk about it, I it immediately resonated, and I was immediately excited that someone is, like, voicing this idea that, like, you don't have to like, not everything has to be calm and work life balance. Mhmm. And Yep. Like, of of course, you have to have balance. Of of course, we we spend time with our kids and our families and and we take time off.
Like, that's a given. Mhmm. But the hustle is doesn't have to be a bad word, you know? It's it's gotten kind of a bad rap. So I I just think that I I just wanna like commend you on like bringing that to light and, like, sharing it publicly.
Like, look, like, if you wanna build something, if you're ambitious in your career, yeah, you gotta you probably gotta work a lot more than 40 hours in a week. You know?
Aaron
Yeah. And it's okay. Like, it's okay to want things out of your life and try really, really hard to get them. And I think it's interesting that, like, in our in our little world, there is a huge focus on, like, you know, being calm and, you know, working around the rest of your life and lots of things that are really, really great. And I think it's probably one of those things where it's like a pendulum has swung one way, and now it's swinging back the other.
And, you know, there's a there's a, like, a theme or a thread of a conversation that has just continued on for, like, the past, you know, 50 years or whatever. But the way that I see it now and the way that I, like I think part of the thing is it made me feel a certain way to watch people, not denigrate, but also, like, not really not really celebrate working hard. Mhmm. And it was a certain it it almost feels like there's a certain group of people in our community or on Twitter that have, quote, unquote, made it for whatever, you know, whatever vector access you wanna call making it. Usually, that's, like, money or having a big SaaS application or something.
They've made it, and then they're like, hey. I've made it. And you know what? It turns out working less is better than working more. I'm like, yeah.
I bet. I've Yeah. I I I totally believe that. But at some point, like, you just have to work really, really hard to get to that place where you can, you know, be that semi retired, like, SaaS operator. And I'm just I'm not there.
And I felt this tension between what I, like, want in the future and what people are telling me is really good. And my the reality of, like, where I am and where I am is very much in the building phase. And I think for me, giving it a name of, like, this is this is the era that I'm in. It won't last forever. It is a specific era, and the era that I'm in is the maximum effort era, and I need to just try really, really hard if I wanna get certain things out of my life.
And that, like, just naming it and releasing the fact that I'm not in my, you know, show up to my desk at 11 AM, answer some emails, and then go play with the kids at 2 PM. That was helpful for me.
Brian
Totally. And it's so much about the mental game, especially when we're when we're doing this, like, build in public thing, and we're on Twitter, and we're on podcast. And and it's it's too hard at least for me to, like, not compare myself to my friends and their SaaS businesses and their and their career trajectories. Right? But I I I really respect what you're saying here because it's like, it's it is a pendulum, but it's also a pendulum for each individual person based on Mhmm.
Your your current circumstance and the stage of where you're at in in life and in career. Right? With with the folks who like quote unquote may made it and who talk about this this concept of like, oh, it it turns out like you could work less or, oh, it's actually a lot simpler to to be successful with this this or that business. I think I think most people generally mean well, and there could be some truth to the idea of, like, it's actually just 1 or 2 key factors that make a a difference in the trajectory of, of a business. Like you, you nail 1 marketing channel, you hit product market fit with the right product for the right customer at the right time.
Like that's true. Like that stuff doesn't have to be comp. It usually doesn't end up being very complicated once you find it. But when you're, when you're on the path to finding it and you're searching and you're, and as my buddy Jordan likes to call it, like, you're you're wandering the desert. Mhmm.
You know? There's this period of runway which can last years. And and it's weird. Like, I find myself kinda back in that spot now. I Mhmm.
I had I I had gained a certain level of, like, financial freedom and with 1 or 2, like, I like to think of them as, like, base hits businesses, but those have sort of like run their course. Now I'm sort of back to, to not square 1, but like back to thinking through like, all right, I do kind of have to hustle or piece together or start to split my focus between building something or sustaining something and then trying to pay the bills or, or bill or diversify my bets, if you will. I think that's another thing that I, that I struggle with with, like, the narrative in the industry, which is, like, I hear this a lot. It's like Mhmm. You gotta focus on one single business and Yeah.
And there's a lot of and and this one really starts to, like, get to me a little bit because there's a lot of like sentiment around, like you cannot be successful unless you are only doing one business. Yep. And I think it's a very different situation when you already have one business that is profitable and sustainable versus trying to spin up something on the side so that you can get out of your current situation. Right? Right.
You're you're like, there's just no way around it. Like, you logistically have to split your time at at some point. You know? I'm curious how you think about that with with, like, everything you
Aaron
wanna like, Single bet versus, you know, many small bets thing is just so weirdly contentious on Twitter. People are just so, like, sure that it must be one way or the other. And shockingly, I think there needs to be more nuance around the discussion, which is, you know, not really what Twitter was built for. I think I I think I think a lot of things. One is I think personally, I am more, like, I'm more given to trying to keep many things moving forward.
And I've had to I've had to, like, kind of define how I'm gonna do that recently, because as you know, but not everyone does. I have 2 year old twins. I have twins on the way. I mean, I'm they literally could be here at any moment. So I'm about to have 4 kids under 3, and I have a full time job.
Right? And so there's a lot of stuff that I wanna do with my life. And in terms of the single bet versus the many small bets, I have found that having many small but somewhat related activities going on all kind of going the same general direction, has been the way, 1, the way that I want to live my life, and 2, has been the way that I have found success. And so I think the conversation around, should you go all in on one thing and or should you do a bunch of loosely related things, it it just super depends. It it depends on what your what what you want out of your life.
It depends on how you work personally. It depends on what your goals are professionally. It depends on it depends on how much money you're making. Like, the whole thing, the whole conversation is dependent. Yeah.
Would I personally have a have a a SaaS application that I'm trying to grow and then start a new SaaS that I then have to grow? I wouldn't do that. But would I start like, you're doing, would I start a SaaS that I'm trying to grow and then do productized coaching or consulting? Yes. I would absolutely do that.
And, like, what I'm doing personally is I've got several different, like, content things going, and I find that all of those kind of help each other, kind of boost each other. They are a little bit discreet, but it's all the same universe, and they're all headed the same direction. And I find that each one helps the other, and I just really like doing a couple of different things. And I don't I don't think that that's necessarily bad.
Brian
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I'd I'd like to think about it, like, earlier in my career, I did a lot more things than I do now, but that was actually beneficial in many ways. Like, it it was a way to diversify income and generate an income, but it was also, like, by literally by doing different things, I become known for things.
Like, I like, creating and shipping things is is what makes people tune into what you're doing. Like, you can't just build an audience without actually doing anything. Like, you have people need a reason to to follow your story of what you're doing. So that I think that really helps.
Aaron
I've also found that, like, I don't know. I've done so many things, and I've been very public about them, and a lot of them have not worked. And, yes, that is that can be very embarrassing to be like, I'm doing this thing and then later be like, oh, well, that didn't super work.
Brian
Yeah.
Aaron
But the way that I've ended up where I am, which I think is a good place for me, is I've done a lot of things, and the things that are now working are the things that people gave me positive signals on early on.
Brian
Yeah.
Aaron
And so, like, if I'm putting 10 things out there and everyone on Twitter is saying, wow, these two things are great, that's very helpful. It's huge. Yeah. And, like, I don't know how you get there. Maybe I don't think I'm as smart as other people think they are, but I don't know how you get there out of thin air.
Like, the only way that I know how to get there personally is to experiment, put the stuff out there, and people say like, Aaron, it's great that you're building a SaaS. I don't care about that. What I really want from you is I want you to make more YouTube videos and I want you to teach me how to record screen casts. And it's like, oh, okay. Well, since you are the market, maybe I should listen to you instead of banging my head against the sass wall that nobody cares about.
Brian
Yep. Dude, you're you're speaking to so much of of where I'm finding myself after years of of doing that too. Alright. But I had a question for you that I'm actually really wondering about about you and your and your era of of maximum effort here. Like because you like you said, you you you are doing the the job.
You Mhmm. You do have a growing family. You've got but you I also see that you are involved in multiple different products or Mhmm. Even beyond just products themselves, like different types of path. Right?
So Mhmm. Hey. Real quick. This podcast is sponsored by Instrumentl Products. That's my product studio where I and my small crew, we take new product ideas from concept to launched.
I'm a full stack product designer and developer, and I love collaborating with fellow founders, creators, and SaaS companies to bring that spark of energy into new product ideas. Think of instrumental products as your shortcut to shipping that next idea and getting it into the hands of your customers as efficiently as possible. Got something to ship? Let's talk. Visit instrumentalproducts.com to learn more.
Like, would you say that, like, your goal at this point is to is to grow your entrepreneurial entrepreneurial career as a creator? Like a Mhmm. Like a YouTube content creator, Twitter newsletter, like a course creator with screencasting.com or sell products or or grow a SaaS product or or both? Like, how are you thinking about, like, your your ideal pathway to to growing in this industry?
Aaron
Yeah. I have a pretty I have a very short answer, and then I can expand not products, just content. And that that's one of the things that's one of the things that I've, like, learned by trying things recently. You know, my partner, Colleen and I, business partner, Colleen, and I were working on a a SaaS product for a really long time. It just really went nowhere, and it was like it just we just kept working on it, and it was just going nowhere.
And then, you know, I started doing some content stuff for work, which I work at PlanetScale database company, and I started making videos. And I did 1 or 2 videos for my personal YouTube channel and people, it just like one, it was really, really easy for me. I felt like, this is I could just make content all day long.
Brian
Mhmm.
Aaron
This is fun. And then 2, the response was, Aaron, we want you to make more content. Please give us more videos. And so I was working on both of those things at once, and one was really hard and was not working. And one was really easy, and it worked really well.
And I was like, what am I doing here? Yeah. And so my my my new, like, the galaxy of Aaron, the empire, but, like, in a not bad way, the empire of Aaron in a good way, is create as much content as I possibly can, whether that's, you know, for work or for my personal YouTube or screencasting.com. Because the thing that people continue to tell me is we really like the way that you teach and, like, you're you're good at teaching and you're an encouragement. And I'm like, that's all I that's, like, what I want to do with my life is be an encouraging teacher.
And I think there are a lot, a lot, a lot of people that can make really good SaaS applications, and I don't know if I'm one of them, but I think there are maybe not as many people that can, like, do the public content creation because it's frankly really scary and really intimidating. And so I'm trying to lean into what I'm good at and what people are telling me they want from
Brian
me. I love it, man. You know, we're going to go deeper on YouTube growth and video content in general and in the next section here. But, you know, I had a, I don't know if this is a note or a question, but it's like figuring out our path of, of least uncertainty. You know, it seems like for you, you you've landed on this concept of I I love how you just said it, like, not products, just creating content.
Like, that's that's the path for you. And and that seems like the path of least uncertainty. People are responding. They're, they're showing you positive reinforcement. Like, yes, you're on the right track with this.
It feels good for you, but obviously a place to your strength. Right. I mean, I'm, you know, it's weird. I, I think I'm, I'm somewhat coming to a point of alignment, but a little bit differently right now. So, you know, I've I've started to become, like, a little bit more public on on Bootstrap Web about where I've ended up at this point with my SaaS product, Clarityflow, which is still very much going.
And I and I intend for this SaaS business and products to continue. But I'm now the so Clarityflow itself is so before this, it it was called ZipMessage. And before that, I had a SaaS called Process Kit. And before that, I actually had a little SaaS attempt called ops calendar and then a couple of other smaller ones in between, like Sunrise KPI.
Aaron
Sunrise. I remember that.
Brian
Yeah. And so so I've been on this journey to trying to make a SaaS business work.
Aaron
Mhmm.
Brian
You know? And I had a, a thing called audience ops, which is like a productized service business that did fairly well, profitable, paid my bills for a number of years there. But a a big part of that goal of having that business was to free me up to to get to a SaaS. And Mhmm. And and about every 2 or 3 years for the past 7 or 8 years now, I've been trying to get a SaaS idea to work.
And now here I sit with this SaaS and I'm now 3 years into it. And it hasn't reached that, like, escape velocity where it's Mhmm. 100% profitable and sustainable. And, and it's just a thing that I can like grow sustainably forever. It, it, it has a runway and, and the runway is gonna be running it.
And so it now here I sit as, as we come up on like the turn into 2024, it's like, I don't have the energy or really, frankly, the the interest to just start again with another SaaS Yeah. Idea. You know? But I, but it's also like, I like, I I'm, I'm coming to terms with the, with the idea that like, you know what, maybe the SAS dream is just not going to pan out for me. Yep.
But the content creator path is something that I sort of dabbled in, in the past. I I actually made pretty good money when I was selling the productized course, but I've always treated like the content and the creator and the and the video and the podcasting stuff as, like, sort of just for fun while I try to do a real, quote, unquote, real business. A
Aaron
real no. That is a 100% correct. Yes. Yes.
Brian
I really feel that.
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. But, like, my
Brian
thinking on it now is, like, I'm still interested in doing SaaS products.
Aaron
Mhmm.
Brian
As long as those are the side project, those need to be the the little plants that I can, like, water every now and then. But the main moneymaker or the main profit engine or the main interest and focus area needs to, I sort of need to go back to my roots and get back into the creator mindset, you know?
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. I I I mean, in terms of, like, giving up the dream, I really, I like, I felt that big time. I was like, wait. Everything I like, the startups for the rest of us and micro conf, everything is build a SaaS app.
And, you know, I don't think that's technically true. Rob has talked many times about stair stepping and but, you know, my perception of everything is SaaS is the dream and SaaS is the only way. And I think SaaS is amazing, and I would love to have a profitable profitable SaaS application. But I also think there are other paths. And as I've gotten into this content creating stuff, I've found one that I enjoy it a lot more, which cannot be like, it cannot be discounted that I'm having a lot of fun doing this.
We talk about burnout a lot, and I think the ultimate cure for burnout is fun and success. Like, I'm having a lot of fun, and it's working. Yeah. I've got a lot of energy.
Brian
Gotta camp.
Aaron
When when when you're not having when you're not having fun and it's not working, every day feels like a punch in the face. It's like, yeah. You're you're gonna you're gonna burn out.
Brian
For sure.
Aaron
That sucks.
Brian
You know, I I think yeah. Sorry. Go ahead.
Aaron
No. I was just gonna say, so I think that can't be I I think that can't be discounted, but also there there's money in content creation. Like, it's not it's not, you know, put in a ton of effort and get, you know, tens of dollars off of YouTube ads. Like
Brian
Yeah. There's other ways. Yeah. I definitely wanna dig into that whole model of YouTube and, like, the creator style business because, like, the the thing that I'm sort of getting excited about now, like, this month is I'm I'm breaking out of that, like, living in fear. I think I think for a while, I was living in fear of if this SaaS doesn't work, then I'm a total failure at entrepreneurship in general.
And, and, and I'm, and I'm coming to terms with like, look, there are many ways to be successful in you using the skillsets that people like us have, whether it's software, content creation, marketing, there's many ways to be successful and it doesn't have to actually follow the same linear path that a lot of our friends and peers have have been able to build. You
Aaron
know? Seem seemingly. You look at you look at somebody's path now, and it looks linear, like, in hindsight, but we we we have to remember. Let's take somebody who is a success in our community, Justin Jackson. You have to remember back to 20, whatever, 17, 18, 19 when he did the mega maker project, and he did a 100 things in a year.
And it was like, they were all completely random up to and including making a burrito was one of the episodes. It's like, I'm gonna make a 100 things, one of which is a burrito. And you look at that now, and you're like like, if you look at that at the as a point in time of whatever year it was, 2018 or 19, you think this guy is all over the map. What is he doing? And you look at Justin Jackson now, and he's like, I have a single SaaS application that makes enough money to employ a bunch of people, and I live this nice, easy lifestyle.
And you're like, wait. Those are just a point in time matters a ton, and, you know Yep. Justin's path was not linear. And for me, you know, for me, it's a little bit embarrassing to be like, hey. I tried this SaaS thing for 2 or 3 or 4 years, and it didn't work.
And I'm gonna, frankly, I'm gonna give it up. Like, this particular idea, I'm gonna give it up, and that sucks. Like, that's that's a public embarrassment. But I realized that, like, I would much rather I would much rather be embarrassed and move on and continue to, like, plow forward into what I want my future to be than for the sake of not being embarrassed, work on this thing that doesn't work for the next several years. Like, what am I gonna do with my life?
Like, for sure. I'd rather be embarrassed. So I think, like, we look at these people and think linear for sure, and then you listen to their podcasts from 6 years ago, and you're like, ah, you were you were all over the place, man.
Brian
Yeah. That that's very true. I mean but one one thing that Justin, of the idea of, like, the the idea matters. Like, the initial curve of the idea really, really matters because it, you know, I've I found myself with a lot of my SaaS attempts being like, they reach some level of success. They're not total failures.
You know, but they're not knock it out of the park, home run rocket ship growth. And, you, you do sort of there's there is sort of like a luck factor. Of course you gotta like spot these opportunities, but like, you know, nailing that product market fit is is such, if if you don't fully nail it, you you can go years and just be in this, like, mediocre state. But
Aaron
Yeah. I think the one one of the ideas that Justin has really nailed is, like, the wave. He he talks a lot about, like, riding the wave of the market, and I think that's one of his one of his crispier, like, best clear ideas. And that is, like, when I was receiving feedback about content I was creating, that was in my mind. I was like, oh, this is what he's talking about.
This is the wave of the market pushing me towards this thing, and, like, that is making this really easy because the market is telling me what to do.
Brian
Yeah. So just to, like, sort of, like, wrap up this this segment or this episode on on, like, this maximum effort thing, I want to sort of, like, maybe get some clarity for for listeners. And I'm curious to know from you, because I I still feel kind of exhausted thinking about all the things that you're doing. You know? How are you actually managing energy from day to day?
I I mean, I I understand that it involves putting in extra hours, probably more than most people are For sure. Are comfortable with. Mhmm. But even just beyond the sheer hours and the scheduling and the logistics, like, I Yeah. Personally, I don't have I I can't, like, devote a lot of energy at nighttime to work projects.
I I kinda have to be on Netflix at that point. Like, how are you thinking about, like, managing your creative energy, especially creating content? I mean, how do you kinda stay connected by that?
Aaron
Yeah. So everything I'm about to say is descriptive of my life and not prescriptive to anyone, so nobody come at me for for any of this. I definitely work more hours than is sustainable long term. That's that's the first thing. I don't do I don't do late nights every night, but last night, for example, I was up recording videos at 1 AM.
And part of that is I'm about to go out on paternity leave, and so I'm trying to bank videos for PlanetScale. And that's just like a personal decision. Nobody, you know, nobody at PlanetScale is forcing me to do it, but I am very invested in the growth of the PlanetScale YouTube channel. And so I'm just, like, I'm just working super late at night. And I think, you know, the I think the first thing to note is, like, I've eliminated a lot of things in in my life.
I don't I don't I just don't do a lot of other things right now. And I think a lot of new parents probably can resonate with that, that they just don't do a lot of other things. Like, I unfortunately, I don't play indoor soccer anymore. That kinda ended around COVID, and I haven't picked it back up even though I would love to. I don't watch sports just because I don't super care.
I don't watch a lot of TV, which I do love, but I just don't do it right now. And my wife is a full time stay at home mom, and so, like, during the day, I'm not on dad duty. During the day, the kids are at school, and then my wife, you know, will pick them up. And so during the day, I'm, like, fully into work. And then around 5:30 or 6, like, I'm out of here.
I am out of this room. I am going to help with with dinner and playtime and wrestle and then bedtime. And then after that, I do come back in here and continue to work. And so right now, my schedule is a lot of, like, work and kids, and that's about it. I mean, what about with that?
Brian
What about, like, relaxation? How are you unwinding? How are you give like, literally giving, like, the brain some some rest? I mean, for for me, like, actually, like, watching TV is in pretty essential for me. Like Yeah.
Like, I I actually need to watch a show for 2 hours every night to to, like, turn my brain off and just be in consumption mode and get into sleep, and then I and then I come back hard in the morning. You know? Yeah.
Aaron
How how are you? One one is that I I switch projects. I mean, that that is helpful for me. Like, I'll go from recording a a recording a planet scale video on databases to potentially writing an article or doing a little bit of coding or something like that. And I'm like, that's that's refreshing to me because there's a big mental shift from I'm, like, I'm in, like, public persona mode where I'm on camera trying to be excited and keep people's attention, and then I can turn off all the lights and put on my hoodie and, like, code, and that feels like relaxation to me.
That's like, oh, thank god. I can finally just be quiet. And then I also I also take a lot of walks these days. So I'll throw in I'll throw in a podcast or an audiobook, and I'll just walk around the block for, like, 45 minutes or an hour. Even at 9:30 at night, I'll just, like, walk in the dark, and it's just that
Brian
is very Yeah.
Aaron
Yeah. It's really great. It's really relaxing, and I find that, like, all of, like, stuff starts to fall into place while I'm while I'm walking. Like, the brain starts to sift every everything and starts to generate ideas, and then I come back and I'm like, Hey, that was a pretty good idea. I should write that down.
Brian
For sure. I do I, I try to work out every day now and it's the first thing that I do in the morning. And usually I'm doing like strength stuff, like 3 days a week, but on the alternate days, I'm, I'm walking like 2 or 3 miles in the morning and it's and, and I'm at the point now I've been doing it for a couple of years where it's like, I have to, I like, I feel uncomfortable the rest of the day if I don't get get those steps in. Like, it it's Yep. Somehow, like, mentally refreshing for sure.
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. I I love I love taking walks because I can just cruise and it our block is not huge, but I just cruise in as many circles as I need to go in. I just continue to go until I feel like, okay. My I've settled I've settled down the noise a little bit.
I can come back in and start to produce a little more. Love it.
Brian
So that's our chat on the era of maximum effort. Again, I just wanna say, like, so much of of what you talk about and where you're at right now is really resonating in many ways with where I'm at right now, so this is really exciting. So, you know, thank you, Aaron.
Aaron
Yeah. Absolutely. I love I love talking about it, and so thanks for thanks for bringing it up. Awesome.
Brian
That does it for today's episode of the Fullstack Founder podcast. As always, the show notes include links to the YouTube channel for this podcast where you can catch these full interviews on video. And my YouTube channel, that's where I'm building products in public. See you next week.