Zombification

Ian

Hello?

Aaron

Ian, I've got one question for you.

Ian

Oh, hot. Hot. Coming in hot here. Alright. What you got?

Aaron

What's a good word?

Ian

Oh, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. Yeah.

Aaron

It's pretty good.

Ian

It's pretty good. It's pretty good. Yeah. That's all I got for you. I thought that It's

Aaron

not great.

Ian

Not great. Cat. Okay. Better than what? Is it the is it

Aaron

the system, the wrist, or is it something else that's amiss?

Ian

You had that one you had that one queued up for a week, didn't you? No. No. No. No.

Actually, I've been thinking

Aaron

about I've been thinking about other ones for a week, but that one just literally just came to me in the moment.

Ian

Organic. Wow. Very impressive. Thank you. Very impressive.

Cyst on the wrist is, doing pretty good. Yeah. No. It's, like, it's basically normal. So they act it and back to normal there.

Guts are pretty much normally with this, the medicine working, so that was good. Yeah. So that that's all pretty good. You're in tip top shape. I wouldn't go that far.

Nah. It's a little far.

Aaron

I was giving you

Ian

I was giving

Aaron

you a little credit there.

Ian

I'm still like you know? I didn't know. There's, like, still I would say I'm, like, 85%. Still something. I just feel, like, not totally back.

You know? I don't know. I don't know if one of these, like you know, your body goes through a big thing, and then you're kinda, like it just takes a while to recover still. I don't know. It's busy.

Sun's been home. He's going back today. Lot going on. But, yeah, I mean, I've definitely been worse. So I'm I'm not like I'm not like, I don't know.

What's the when you ask the how what's the good word? What's the bad response? The the

Aaron

I think it's either we're making it or we're making it in there.

Ian

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm definitely above that. So that's That's good. Yeah. What's going on there at the Francis household? Oh, man.

Children and All the children. Wives and helpers and all the stuff.

Aaron

Just the just the one wife. Many children, one wife, many helpers. You know, not a not a whole lot. We did a so did, like, a baby dedication thing at our church for the youngest two. It's like, it's like the Protestant version of baby baptism.

It's like

Ian

Okay. We kinda just make it we kinda just make it up

Aaron

because we don't super believe

Ian

in baby baptism. So it's like,

Aaron

we we promise to, you know, to raise

Ian

our children to do something. But yeah.

Aaron

Yeah. Exactly. So that was nice. We had, you know, the whole both sides of, the family showed up for church, and we walked down to the front with all the kids. And I

Ian

thought it was a production that happened.

Aaron

Oh, such a production. But it was great. You know? Lots of fun. Our families were there.

Our, like, our home group was like, our church group was there. And so we had to see tons of people, and, it was great. The kids did super great. The big ones, you know, down front in front of the whole congregation was kinda like, are they gonna freak out? And, no, they didn't.

It was fine.

Ian

They just held it together.

Aaron

They held it together. So nobody got any family nearby,

Ian

or do people have to fly in? Okay.

Aaron

Everybody's everybody's nearby. Jennifer has one sister out in Lubbock who, didn't come in for this because it was, you know, just a little thing. But, yeah, everybody my parents are here. Her parents are here. Her sisters are here.

My my siblings are around here. I've got a few down in Houston area. But, yeah, everybody's everybody's in Texas. If they weren't, we would leave.

Ian

There you go. Out of here. No way. You're not giving up that zero taxes. Come on.

Aaron

Nobody gets killed there. No. I was just talking about this last night. We do, like, a supper club with some friends once a month.

Ian

Oh, nice.

Aaron

And you can tell that, like, we're getting old because the topics are like, how do you get into preschool, and what's the deal with property taxes?

Ian

And last night, we were talking about property taxes, and they're freaking insane.

Aaron

They're insane down here. It's terrible. It's like two and a half, 3% of appraised value every year. And so you never you just never own your property.

Ian

Right. I don't know what I said. I guess it's 10. Yeah. It's probably around it's about that two to 3%, I guess.

You know? Two to 3%.

Aaron

And you have state income tax?

Ian

Yeah. Don't come to New York. If you leave Texas, don't come to New

Aaron

York. Worry. That was not on the table.

Ian

That's right. Don't go to New York City. You You all go to New York City because I haven't been extra

Aaron

booked on. Yeah.

Ian

An extra 2% tax in New York City income tax.

Aaron

Income tax?

Ian

Yeah. City tax. Living by the city? Yes. No.

Aaron

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Ian

Pay a big privilege to, live in the greatest place where you're

Aaron

going to be. And get urinated on. That sounds awesome.

Ian

Never been urinated on yet.

Aaron

Yeah. Yeah. Yet. You don't spend too much time in the city.

Ian

You must be attracted to the people. The people that you attract them in, the urinators. Yes. That guy. He's so crisp looking.

Yeah. Let's pee on him. He's from out of town. Let's pee on him.

Aaron

I probably do give off a very out of town vibe when I'm in Ubud City. Yeah. That's definitely good.

Ian

See you. Those guys who look like you there.

Aaron

Yeah. So Yeah. But I bet I bet they're a lot, I bet they're a lot harsher. I bet they're a lot more confident. They're just, like, bumping into people.

They're out walking here, that kind of stuff. You know? I have to

Ian

tell you, the nicest people on Earth are New York City. You'll never have nicer street interactions in New York City. Everywhere else, nobody will talk to you. Nobody will look at you. It's all terrible.

New York City, the people are used to be on the street. You see people helping people all the time. I do I do like that odd in our guard.

Aaron

The odd clip of, like, a mom trying to walk down or up from the subway, and somebody, like, grabs the front of the stroller without saying a word, walks up the stairs, and walks off. I'm like I've

Ian

literally seen that myself. I've seen it in person.

Aaron

That's perfect. I love that. Like It

Ian

just happened.

Aaron

In the in the argument between, like, kindness and niceness, that is kindness. Like, you don't have to be you don't have to be flowery or soft or, like, you know capitalist. No. It's just like, I will do this thing for you because it is kind, but I I'm just gonna walk off. Like, we're not best friends.

It's not the South.

Ian

It's obvious you needed this assistance. I'm gonna grab the front. We're gonna go down, and then I'm gonna go on my way, and that's it. Like Yep.

Aaron

I do

Ian

love it. Yep. That that part is great. That part is

Aaron

that is a nice thing about, like, I feel like living in a big city like that,

Ian

there is more of a

Aaron

sense of, like, we're living in a society, you know, to to quote Jerry.

Ian

It's like, there are

Aaron

there are rules here, and often times, those rules get broken. But when you see the rules playing out like they should, it's like, yeah. This is a society. I like this.

Ian

Yes. It's so hard to have a society not in a city. This is one of the things where I'm very torn. And when we get older, I wanna live in a city at least part of the time because, yeah, I want the people like, just peep not where you have to make like, what you were just saying. Like, I don't know.

You don't we don't have to force it. Like, there's so much forcing it when you live in the suburbs or suburb like places like you live. Where you know what I mean? You have to force it. Like, you can't just there's not serendipitous interactions on the same level.

You know

Aaron

what I mean? Like Here's my counterpoint, though.

Ian

Mhmm.

Aaron

And you say there's too much forcing it. I say there's not enough forcing it because peep people move out. People don't live within, like, bump in proximity of each other, and then they decide that, like, society is dead. Or, like,

Ian

you

Aaron

can't have friends. Like, oh, you have friends.

Ian

The the

Aaron

way that you have friends is you plan something.

Ian

Right. Well, that's what I mean. Anything. You you plan anything. You have to force it, and then you will force it.

Right? Because, you know, it's a lot of work to continuously force it, and then that's it.

Aaron

To continuously be intentional about it. I don't think there's, like, a like, a force is like, hey. I'm having a supper club. I know that none of you wanna come, but you have to come because of some weird, like, social rule. Like, organizing or being intentional about it is, hey.

I know that everyone wants to get together, and everyone's lonely all the time. And so I've planned this event. Does anyone want to come? And everybody's like, yes. I wanna come.

This is amazing.

Ian

We should do something like that. We used to do stuff. We used to do events. We used to do parties. It does get so much harder as the kids get older.

It's very counterintuitive. But, like, your age kids, we were that was, like, we were at peak, like, doing stuff. And then once you get into, like, you're the chauffeur and you're driving people places and dropping them off, pick them up, and the stuff happens after school and stuff happens later. And you're picking people up at 09:00, and then it's like, do I really wanna do the dinner party? Like Yeah.

At 08:00 on Saturday when all night during the week, I've been out till 09:00 driving people around or doing whatever, running errands or going grocery shopping. There was no other time. Like, it is much harder at that point, I will say.

Aaron

So Well I

Ian

don't know. But I don't know. I do know that. I don't we also get tired of forcing it. So because there's some of that too.

We gotta get back into forcing it. So we gotta do like it when you force it, like you're saying.

Aaron

Well, yes. We gotta get back into planning things. I agree. Planning things. I think planning things is hugely underrated, and I think there's latent demand for like, everyone wants with a broad brush, everyone wants to be doing something with friends.

Right? Yeah. Everyone is in some regard lonely and thinks that everyone else is doing stuff without them when really everybody is all sitting at home thinking everyone's doing stuff

Ian

without me. Yeah.

Aaron

And so the, you know, the planners will inherit the world in terms of friendship

Ian

because they just, like, give people a reason to get together.

Aaron

And it's like, oh, this is amazing.

Ian

And it's also there's this trickier bit, I think, as the kids get bigger because, like, you have. And and for people like us, now you're in the full tier of the work. And you were before even remotely work. When you remotely work for somebody else or you work for yourself, like, you don't have work as the the default, like, yeah, I make friends at work. Right?

And I even know you guys. I I have friends who I work with. You know, in the employee, they have different friends, but they're not coming over. Right? Like, they're they're 2,000 miles away.

So We're not

Aaron

we're not going out for happy hour every other Friday.

Ian

Right. So so you don't have work as of default. Key sort of kid parent friendship time is, again, the young kid age, like, the preschool. I know you end up spending a lot of time at school, and so you end up being with the parents a lot. But, again, once it gets time middle school and done by high school, like, you're not there's not, like, stuff at the school that the parents are all doing together and stuff, so you kinda don't make those newer connections with the parents.

So you do end up in, like, it's a little tricky of, like, where do you actually meet people? Like, where do I go meet new people? It's not, like, such an easy question nowadays, and people aren't necessarily looking for stuff to do because people are busy. You have, obviously, phones and distractions not, you know, a hundred years ago where people are just like, I walk up the street to my local place. Also because we all live in the suburbs, so you can't walk up the street, which is like a whole other

Aaron

Can you imagine walking

Ian

up the street? Walking up the street would be so good.

Aaron

Driving by all those big trucks that are spraying diesel exhaust on you. I don't understand how anyone does it.

Ian

There is not a diesel exhaust back then. No. I'm a hundred fifty years ago.

Aaron

Everything was just lead and fumes.

Ian

So Yeah. Exactly.

Aaron

Basically the same.

Ian

That was horse poop you were stepping in. You know? But Yeah. That was alright. So, anyway, yes.

This is all it's all of a complicated question. And you're tired. You're old and you're tired. Oh, boy. Tired.

You're tired. You're tired.

Aaron

I get that.

Ian

Just one of those. We we

Aaron

just do once a month. Mhmm. We do once a month. We rotate houses

Ian

For the dinner party.

Aaron

For the dinner party. And, whoever's house it's at is responsible for everything. And so that. The one like that, Rob.

Ian

That's a good rule. The real deal.

Aaron

Every, what, three, four months, you have to cook dinner and dessert and wine or whatever for eight or 10 people.

Ian

But

Aaron

the other times, you literally walk in the front door without the pretense of, like, hey. What can I bring? Can I bring the salad?

Ian

It's like That's huge.

Aaron

Feed me. I'm here.

Ian

And it's great. Yeah. If it was you had if everybody was if it was potlucking it, then that's just gonna work for you every month,

Aaron

and

Ian

that's annoying. Then you're annoyed. You're like, no. I got, I gotta go get the stuff or the salad. Maybe I'll get

Aaron

some more of those. Yeah.

Ian

Right. Yeah.

Aaron

Give me a break.

Ian

Okay. Interesting. Now you got so this is, like, ten, five couples or something like that?

Aaron

Like that.

Ian

Yeah. That's interesting. Mhmm. It's interesting. Mhmm.

Yeah. I might oh, there's maybe something here. Jamie's listening to this. She usually listens. So Jamie, it's a good idea.

Maybe we should talk something like this. Get some people together. Get get go ahead. I

Aaron

was gonna say, and it and it's easy. Like, it's, it's not intimidating to offer this to another set of couples. Right? It's like, hey. You wanna you wanna get together every now and then for dinner?

Like, we can start at my house. And then at that dinner, the first one, you can just say, should we do this again? This was great. Does anyone wanna host next time? And then you're kinda like, you're kinda off to the races.

You know? You gotta slow play. You gotta lure the people out of their hiding.

Ian

What are you gonna do, of course, on this stuff? What are you gonna do? Southern hospitality. Southern hospitality with Aaron Francis. That's what we need.

Aaron

The other one the other one is is, guy's breakfast. You gotta get a guy's

Ian

breakfast. A guy's breakfast.

Aaron

Every every three or four weeks, you get together with the boys, and you have some some bad tacos or some Waffle House or something.

Ian

We can't even get breakfast tacos here. This is the problem.

Aaron

If I

Ian

can get breakfast tacos, maybe I'd do it. But

Aaron

All those taxes and no tacos. That's crazy. Yeah.

Ian

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron

That's the other one. You gotta you gotta get a little you gotta get a little guy's breakfast going.

Ian

Okay.

Aaron

That's the good stuff, man.

Ian

Interesting.

Aaron

Here's the here's the trick to here's the trick to a successful guy's breakfast

Ian

Mhmm.

Aaron

Is it has to be it has to be a big enough group so so that, like, two or three or four people not coming isn't a big deal. So you gotta have, like, you gotta have, like, I wanna say six to 10 people in the

Ian

mix. Oh, okay. Kind of a hurdle. Kind of a hurdle. It's a little tricky.

I know I go with that right now. You can start you can start smaller if

Aaron

you have committed guys. Build

Ian

them up. Yeah. You

Aaron

could. And then the other trick is, it's got to be you gotta have a spot, and you gotta have a time. Mhmm. Because if it's like if it's like every now and then, you're texting six or eight guys, and you're like, hey. When do you how how what's when's who who can it's never gonna work.

Ian

Alright. You're never gonna work. It's gotta be a standing meeting.

Aaron

Yes. You have to be comfortable with saying the first Friday morning of every month at 7AM, I'm gonna be at

Ian

the taqueria or whatever. Right? Right. Right. And

Aaron

you have to be comfortable with being the only person there.

Ian

Because that

Aaron

that will definitely happen. But there's something comforting about, never having to ask, hey. Is anybody going to this thing? Because you know that the organizer is always going to be there. So it's a nice way to reminders?

Yeah. You can send reminders. Mhmm. But it's a nice way to frame, like, hey. I go to this place every first Friday or every other Friday for breakfast.

If you guys wanna join, I will be there at seven. And, eventually, people start to think like, oh, yeah. I should go I should go to that thing. I should go to that breakfast and see who's there. And it's, like, way lower pressure than, like, having to organize on the fly every month or every couple weeks.

Ian

I like that idea. That's also another good Jamie idea. Jamie, that's a good idea for you. Because Jamie's into that kind of thing. I could see her.

But it's a woman the woman's version of the same thing. Woman's breakfast. Just a standing thing and bite some people.

Aaron

The standing thing is very, very powerful. We did a Yeah. Back when back when I was, quite young and single, I was, you know, 23 or four or something. Mhmm. And all my friends had just gotten married, and I just moved back from College Station to Dallas.

And I was like, man, everybody's married and, like, probably hanging out with their wives and stuff. So what am I gonna do? And so I started a standing there was this restaurant around here that did these awful, god awful $2 margaritas every Monday night. Oh, yeah. Terrible.

But when you're 23 and you're broke, you're like, $2 for a margarita? That sounds awesome.

Ian

Right.

Aaron

So every Monday night, we would go to we would go to Ozona's and have $2 marks. And it it just, like, expanded from three or four people to, like, 15 to 20 to 25 because

Ian

Oh my goodness.

Aaron

Everybody wants to have a place to go. Like, everybody wants to belong. And if you just know there's a group at Ozona's every Monday night at eight, people are gonna show up.

Ian

You're just always bringing the people together. Gotta bring the people together. I'm telling you, I think this is a course. We're giving it away for free here, but most people haven't listened to this.

Aaron

That's right.

Ian

You gotta sell this. I think it'll be a cool little side thing.

Aaron

How to have friends.

Ian

Yeah. Yeah. How to make friends and influence people or

Aaron

That's right. That's a good title. I should write that down.

Ian

You should do that. I like this. Alright. Alright. I do want to this is, like, a thing in the area I'd like to push on a little bit.

Definitely been, coasting. Like, not as engaged with the other humans as I should be. Mhmm. So Mhmm. This is interesting.

Mhmm. I've built up a thing. I sort of have a thing similar to this, but, with the the PLO game I've been playing in recently where it's like, the sort of a group that's generally there, and so that's kind of formed around this game. The thing with poker people, though, is just sort of degenerates, obviously. Yes.

They are. It's sort of its own little world. It's not like people I would necessarily choose to hang out with, but it is a group of humans I do, occasionally hang out with every, you know, other week or so. So there's a little bit of that, but it's not quite obviously the same as a, nice group dinner with the, the wives and everybody together. So

Aaron

Upstanding members of society.

Ian

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I get both sides. You know?

Ying and yang.

Aaron

I will tell you. I was part of a regular, poker house game for a little bit until

Ian

look at that.

Aaron

Until I got, I got disinvited, but I was a regular for a while. Yeah. It was great.

Ian

Crushing? You were you were taking all their money, so they

Aaron

disinvited you? I was coming I was coming primarily as, like, a buffer, like, as a favor.

Ian

As an extra

Aaron

As an extra person, and I I stopped being needed. They found, like, more people.

Ian

Regular.

Aaron

Yeah. So it was like my friend, probably my closest friend in the world, was hosting this game, and it's a bunch of attorneys. And he he is also an attorney, and, like, they just didn't have enough people. And I'm a I'm a good everyman. You know?

I can I can yuck it up with new folks? And so

Ian

I played for a long time, and

Aaron

it was great. We'd start on a it also got a lot harder after we had the second set, but it would start on, like, a Saturday, like, two or three. And we would play until, you know, six or seven, and we'd order pizza and then have drinks and sit around and talk for, like, thirty, forty five minutes, and then we would continue to play for, you know, for a little bit after that.

Ian

And it was great, Scott. I didn't realize you were that hardcore into the poker. Okay. Oh, yeah.

Aaron

I easily, every time, lost 50 to a hundred dollars.

Ian

So Yeah.

Aaron

It was great. I love the game.

Ian

What what kind what kind of attorneys are these playing for low stakes like that? Come on. They got up the they got up the stakes a little bit here.

Aaron

I don't know. You just you know, you don't Alright.

Ian

Keeping it friendly.

Aaron

Yeah. You can't have a fun, friendly house game for a thousand dollars. You know? That's not that's not quite as fun.

Ian

I guess so. That's what all the juice is, though. You know?

Aaron

Yeah. Well, that's where you go to the poker rooms with the degens that aren't your friends that you can just, like take their money. Ruthlessly crush. Yeah.

Ian

Oh, it is kinda great taking your friend's money, though, too. You know? There's something glorious about taking your friend's money.

Aaron

Just having your money taken by a friend, which is the experience I have had, is less fun,

Ian

I must admit. I'm sure it's great to be on

Aaron

your side.

Ian

No, man. Alright. What's going on? What do we got this week? I think we need some more technical.

Yeah. Technical this week. You you put a tech topic on here. Let's start with yours. Like, what

Aaron

do you got here? Tell me.

Ian

So a while back on Blue Sky, I think, Marcel maybe, what K. Posted about, performance issues and Laravel and who's seen performance issues Mhmm. So on and so forth. And I've never really seen any with Laravel that I would other than, components. Like, if you have a bunch of components on a page, then it gets Blade components.

Yeah. Blade components. Yep. So K. Whatever, put in my 2¢, and a guy showed up who, he's been around for a while.

Aaron

I know this guy.

Ian

Yeah. What's the name? What I

Aaron

don't know. But I know

Ian

his space.

Aaron

Mike And I know

Ian

his avatar. John Jonathan Kostya. There you go. Out there. That's exactly right.

Yeah. So he's been around a while. Yeah. I I know Space interacted them here and there on Twitter and whatnot. And, so he said he was working on a package to fix this, and he released it today, and it's called Dagger.

Aaron

He released

Ian

it? Yes. It's released. And so, you can check it out.

Aaron

He is the blade whisperer.

Ian

Yeah. He has another package that does some blade stuff, I think.

Aaron

And I think he has the, like, the the, like, syntax or, like, code style formatter for blade. Like, he's the only one that's ever been able to do it because blade is not real. It's just a bunch of regexes.

Ian

Right. Yeah. That's right. So it's very well documented. There's a bunch of docs, and I haven't gone too deeply in it.

But the basic idea here is that you have a you make a dagger component instead of a blade component. And it's basically working blade component. But it basically has a whole precompilation step so that everything's precompiles that no matter how sort of deeply nested things get, there's it's all prerendered and figured out. And so I think there's also no, no class based components, which I assume would be much slower because then you'd have to, like, instantiate the class always, which is, I think, is kinda what gets blade components into troubles. Like, if you have to instantiate 2,000 classes, then that just takes a long time.

So, yeah, so it renders everything out into, like, I assume, I haven't looked this deeply into, you know, various loops and things and pre renders the template into the blade template in some fashion. And so it's all there, and so it can just do normal PHP stuff instead of, you know, again, instantiate classes. And yeah. And so that's your high performance bleed component. And so I think it's really cool.

I mean, I know I think he had even interacted with Taylor a little bit. I don't know if he updated Taylor yet, about the idea of maybe doing you know, obviously, Taylor, I think, would, like, in core to have a faster version, because I think, you know, his end, this is one of the things that comes up most in terms of Laravel performance. Because it's just something that could hit you without any load at all. It's just like you could just be working on your local machine. And if you have especially things like data table or whatever that just has all 300 rows of a data table and every cell's a component, it's just gonna be slow a lot of times.

And so yeah. So I think doing it as a package is kinda interesting and then see how it goes. Maybe at some point, either it gets pulled in or it gets at well the bit, into something that could work in the core, but I don't know. I think it's pretty interesting. I don't know.

Have you hit this issue?

Aaron

I haven't. No. Because, I haven't done a lot of I haven't done a lot of blade components. And to my knowledge and my understanding, you you can get hit with this pretty easily when you're, using Livewire, which is no fault of Livewires. But when you're using Livewire, you've got a ton of like, you're relying pretty heavily on components.

And Right. Presumably, you have a lot of, like, interactivity, and you've got, you're doing a lot more with Blade once you pick up Livewire. And so some of Blade's shortcomings, become more obvious when you're using Livewire. Again, that is not a Livewire problem. That is a Blade problem.

My so I just found Dagger. It's, it's on GitHub, so I was just looking through it. Here's here's here's a good, bet for us. How long until how long until, let's get his name right, Jon Koster is a Laravel Inc. Employee.

That's the real question.

Ian

Everybody gets tired by Larabel Inc. I don't know. I don't know about that. Could happen. Right?

Ho hopefully, for him, it happens. That would be good for him.

Aaron

Gonna happen. Are you crazy?

Ian

He's, what his employment situation is, but, yeah, just assuming this all works, which I don't have any reason to believe it doesn't, then He's gonna

Aaron

be he's totally gonna become the blade czar for sure.

Ian

Yeah. Just I'm in charge of blade. I like it.

Aaron

I think he's the one he's the only one that has written, like, I don't know if it's I don't know if it's an LSP because I don't know what an LSP is, but he's the only one that's written, like, a blade parser to any degree. He's obviously conquered this blade performance stuff. And I remember Taylor at one point tweeting, like, you know, I'll I'll give you $10,000 if you can, like, do this thing.

Ian

And I

Aaron

was like, oh, damn. This must Blade must be an issue here. So I just I don't know. This is, to me, this is a job application and a very, very good one.

Ian

Yeah. The, docs are quite impressive. I mean, yeah, there are. This is so is covered in there. And it also is, like, there's some interesting stuff where it's cross compatible with things like I think some of the, like, like, push and the stacks and things like that that work across and because I assume it just compiles it into, like, the blade version in the rendered template or whatever.

So, so you can kind of, like, intermix a lot of that stuff. Yeah. I don't know. It looks it looks good. We might have a need of something like this ourselves.

I haven't had direct need of this in a while, but, some of the, like, HubSpot update to Plunk Mhmm. Could could possibly use this depending how we end up building that out. Yeah. I don't know. So I thought it was cool.

It's been a while since I've been intrigued by a package. So, yeah, I saw this. I was like, yeah, man. This is like hopefully, I I hope that he gets hired, and then I hope, yeah, it comes into the core because I just think blades should just always be really fast. You know?

It's like

Aaron

It should be.

Ian

It's one of the only areas that's not blazing fast, and, and it is for, you know, kinda your standard use case. But like you said, when you get into interactivity, whether it's Livewire or, you know, just other sorts of big rendering of it seems like one of those things where, like, in your fake hello world type things you see, it's like, oh, it's all fine. But then when you actually build something and it's like the customer wants Yep. 1,500 rows or 5,000 rows, and they want it all on one screen. Right?

Then then that's a whole different world. Right? Then it's like, oh, when you render 5,000 rows with 10 columns, that's, you know, a zillion cells, and each one of those will play

Aaron

cell has an icon. Right.

Ian

Yeah. Because then you draw a top on top of it. Yeah. So now you're rendering, like, 50,000 component renders, and it actually performs like crap. Yeah.

I think that would be cool to get that as, like, you know, in some way, the idea is a bit integrated, itself integrated, whatever the case may be, assuming it works. But I'm sure, like you said, I know Taylor's been for a while. I know they actually did some work. I think they got it quite a bit faster. I think they did.

Wanna say in Laravel 11 or something, they did make some improvements in 10 or 11. That did help it a lot. But, but, yeah, I think obviously, so this kind of prerendering idea seems to me to be probably the only real way to do it.

Aaron

I think probably so. I missed is there a build step?

Ian

There is some kind of build step. And then there's, like, a JSON file that's, like, it's cached.

Aaron

There's a manifest, which makes me think there's a build stat.

Ian

Yeah. There definitely is. But I don't know if it's just happening dynamically in some way. It just you might not have to, overtly build it. I don't think I've seen it.

Run time build it. I think so. I think if it's a check and it sees something changed or something like that, then That's a good way to do it. But I don't

Aaron

Yeah. It doesn't it doesn't look

Ian

like making this up right now. I mean,

Aaron

I haven't seen, like, c build runner or anything.

Ian

Right. I would think, like, at the top here would be, like, then you have to run this console command

Aaron

or whatever. Yeah. Insulation merely says require it, run Dagger install, and that's it. So Yeah. There's there's not, like, a build process or a build script or anything.

Ian

Yep.

Aaron

Good for him.

Ian

Yeah. So, anyway, that's a little Laravel corner there. Thought that looked pretty cool. You have a similar one on here.

Aaron

I do. It's the year it's the year of, Laravel again for, like, the past ten years. Have you been following Simon Hamps' explorations for native PHP on iOS?

Ian

Little bit. I have. Yeah. I haven't, like, gone super deep on it, but I see him posting about it. And I'm like, this sounds insane, but also

Aaron

It does sound insane.

Ian

Intriguing. Yeah. You It's why I don't this is the year of the, like, where can we push

Aaron

What is

Ian

Laravel, yeah, into weird place? What if the terminal did all kinds of stupid stuff? What if we ran Laravel in iOS? I'm saying stupid in the, you know, in the

Aaron

In the awesome nineties.

Ian

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. In the nineties.

Aaron

I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So native PHP from my as far as I understand it, has has kind of a a weird history.

I don't actually know who's, like, in charge or, like, started native PHP. I feel like Yeah.

Ian

I think it was him. Right?

Aaron

I know. I can't tell.

Ian

I feel like he was not even You talked about it. He was in Marcel.

Aaron

I know.

Ian

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was Marcel. I thought Marcel was in the loop here somehow, but I never see Marcel talking about it.

And I always see someone talking about it.

Aaron

Where'd he go?

Ian

So I don't know. I don't know. I was like, did I make that up? Maybe I made it up, and it was some other because Marcel does does 18,000,000 things. Right?

So I don't know. He's it could just be it could have been some other thing that was very similar to this, but isn't this. And I would not just definitely this.

Aaron

Marcel spoke on native PHP desktop at one of the Laricons.

Ian

I think this is how they do herd. Right?

Aaron

I don't actually think Marcel has shipped any native PHP. I don't think herd is native PHP. I think it's Swift.

Ian

I'm pretty sure that that is

Aaron

not true. I'm pretty sure that's not true.

Ian

Really? I think

Aaron

I think that is not true.

Ian

Okay. Alright.

Aaron

Yeah. There was a time there was a time when I was gonna, tinker with a desktop application, and I asked Marcel, should I use native PHP? And he said, no. Not yet. So I don't think I don't think heard that they're shipping and charging people for is native PHP.

So I think this this is gonna be a hundred well, there's a % chance that this is wrong. Mhmm. But I think Simon started native PHP, and then Marcel came in, and they, like, ended up partnering up and helping.

Ian

And

Aaron

now Simon is running PHP native PHP iOS. I don't know if that's right. That's the that's kind of my memory. Doesn't matter.

Ian

Yeah.

Aaron

So it started on the desktop, and then Simon has been pushing to get PHP running on iOS such that he can build, you know, full featured applications on mobile using PHP,

Ian

which Wild.

Aaron

Is wild. And, like

Ian

I guess it's just rendering HTML. Right? Like, I assume yeah. Okay.

Aaron

Yeah. So the real question is, will it get through iOS approval, which is the process he's currently in right now. Because if it if it gets booted for having ex executable code that's, like, like, runtime executable. I think

Ian

Right.

Aaron

They don't like that very much. So

Ian

That's my understanding.

Aaron

Yeah. We'll see if it gets through. I hope it gets through because he's given a talk on it at Laracon EU. So I hope it works.

Ian

Yeah. Because that's a problem that the emulators have. Like like, game emulators and stuff, they're like, no. Could you have the runtime executing? And Yeah.

That opens up a million, you know, security holes and all that.

Aaron

I from what from what I've seen, I think he has said that all of the executable code is shipped in the binary, and there's no way to send new stuff over the wire

Ian

to execute.

Aaron

And I think that's the issue that most of these run into is, like, hey. We'll just ship a web view, and then we'll render whatever we want from a remote server. And they're like, no. It's not really an app.

Ian

Right. If you wanna pull in new PHP code that you dynamically execute, and then that's the problem. Yeah.

Aaron

I think that's the problem. So, hopefully, he gets he gets by, and that doesn't become, you know, sticky wicket because that that's

Ian

kinda game

Aaron

cool. Kinda game over if it is. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Ian

Not a

Aaron

lot of point in pressing forward if you can't publish it. Yeah. But I'm excited. I think it I think if he pulls it off, it'll be really interesting.

Ian

For sure.

Aaron

And it really makes like, it makes, it makes Livewire a much more, like, interesting option to use on mobile because the server and the thing, like, the, you know, the front end, are zero milliseconds apart. And so using using Livewire on, native PHP and iOS would be really interesting. And you get to say all in PHP. There's no round trip server penalty beyond just, like, you know, internal network ops, which should be fine. And you can do anything.

And so I'm I'm excited. I hope I hope he pulls it off. And I still wanna build a desktop app with with native PHP, but I don't know I don't know the status. It seems like it's kind of stalled out or slowed down a little bit.

Ian

Yeah. Well, this would presumably, bump it up, right, if this works. And it's, like, cool because, like, they're definitely I mean, I think nowadays, but, well, people kinda wanna build mobile apps. Right? It's like desktop apps are interesting for specific edge case use cases, but if you had most people wanna build a mobile app.

It's like if you're building a native app. And, yeah, and I think I definitely had mobile app ideas, but it's like, well, like, to get in there and learn swift or whatever. That's like adds just, like, a huge learning curve that I don't have time to mess with. And so, yeah, if you could, like, build out a v one that's like, yeah, maybe if it's not optimal, it can't literally do everything Swift could do or it's a little slower or what you know? Like, who cares?

Because it's just v one. And if it if it takes off, you can always build a proper, fully native everything version. Yep. Or if this just works fast enough and you never have to do that, even better. But, like, definitely for that, like, prototyping early versions, like, to be able to stay in PHP would be super nice, make it all much more doable.

So Mhmm. Even things for, like, with HubSpot, we wanna do, at some point, like you know, having mobile apps is such a pain in the butt. We don't really focus on them because it's not, like, a main thing. Not most of the users don't use the mobile apps, so it's, like, this edge thing. So it's like, well, do we just do the responsive, you know, in, progressive, you know, web UI type of thing, which is fine.

But then, like, the users do use it. Obviously, they don't necessarily know how that all works, which you could help them, blah blah. But it's it's still, like, a weird sort of thing. And it would be cool if it if you could maybe have even just to making a shell app, this would be nicer if you could then, like, the other ways you could build a shell app, which are really kind of annoying and have some weird downsides themselves. So, yeah, even for, like, other simple use cases like that, it could be really cool to know that, like, hey.

PHP is in there, and if we wanna tweak some stuff, we know how to write it and all that stuff. So yeah. I don't know. It's interesting.

Aaron

Yeah. I'm I'm I'm excited. I'm pumped to see what he's gonna speak on or or the the demos he's going to do at Laracon EU. I think it's gonna be fun.

Ian

Did Laracon EU, did we get a schedule yet? No schedule? No schedule yet. They're going to the last minute here with the schedule.

Aaron

Minute. No schedule?

Ian

No schedule. You hate to see that. How's your stuff going? Are we are we ready? Are we ready with the library?

Aaron

Ready. What is ready? No. We're not ready. So let's see.

Do you remember what percentage done I was last week?

Ian

You had gone from 80 to 50?

Aaron

Alright. Let's knock off another 10. We're we're 40% done now.

Ian

Yeah. Well, you're heading the right direction.

Aaron

We're heading the right direction. It is, the road expands before me continuously, but, it is it's it's very good.

Ian

Okay.

Aaron

If if I may yes. If I may, pat myself on the back, it is it is quite good. I'm very happy with it. Mhmm. I have gone I have gone deeper into the depths of darkness than I expected in terms of, how this is working.

I've got

Ian

your theme last few months here.

Aaron

Boy, isn't it? I've got, so I I I won't spell any of the the good stuff, but let's just say I've got, JavaScript code that writes JavaScript. Mhmm. I've got PHP code that writes

Ian

PHP. Wrong there. Mhmm.

Aaron

I've got JavaScript code that writes PHP, and I've got PHP code that writes JavaScript.

Ian

So I got the whole quadrant covered.

Aaron

That's right. Everybody is writing everything all the time.

Ian

Okay.

Aaron

And it's great. I'm doing I'm doing, parsing of PHP abstract syntax trees.

Ian

Oh my goodness.

Aaron

It's it is we're all over the place, baby, and it's good. It's very good. I'm excited. I showed it to Steve. Steve is Steve is kinda like my my avatar for this.

Like, if I can get Steve interested, then I know I've got something good. And I texted him a screenshot last night, and he said something like, this is it. Holy crap. Like, this is the way I wanna learn Laravel. And I was like, oh my god.

Ian

Oh, boy. Holy

Aaron

cow. Steve.

Ian

Wow. Mhmm. Man, I'm excited for us to get out there so we can have a proper conversation. I know.

Aaron

I know.

Ian

Sounds like a bit this sounds like something that's gonna require quite a bit of maintenance. Whoops. Quite a bit of maintenance. But not sound like, you throw it up there, and it's good to go. No.

No. No. Still be I'll be intrigued about the that whole end of this story here.

Aaron

Yes. And I think it's becoming more, as, you know, as I get closer on it and as Steve and I talk about it more and more, I think it is becoming more of a, pillar of the business. So it's not just going to be like, hey. Let's do this to get attention and then sell database courses. I think this is becoming more of a leg of of a

Ian

proper, like, operating unit. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Aaron

Mhmm.

Ian

Alright. Well, you can't give us any more juice right now, so we're gonna have to buy some help. But soon. Let's see. Oh, wait.

So let's see. That's was that two weeks away? I guess two weeks. Two Mondays now.

Aaron

Not great. Not great.

Ian

And you started to talk yet

Aaron

in your head at least? The answer is no. But, yes, in my head in my head, I have. I've, you know, run through five or six different openings, and I think I I found one I think I found one that's gonna work. Because you really gotta you know, with a big reveal, you gotta, like, you gotta wow them.

Because if you do a big reveal and it's like, oh, boy, that guy that guy is kind of an idiot. So, I think I have a good a good opening and a good powerful initial demo, and then we can kinda get off into the weeds. But I think it's gonna work.

Ian

You mean you got 30, 40 minutes? I think twenty. Twenty minutes?

Aaron

I know.

Ian

Woah.

Aaron

I asked Kaneko, hey. How how long are these talks? Because, I had no idea how long the talks were.

Ian

Right.

Aaron

He was like, twenty minutes. And I said,

Ian

I've got a little bit more than that.

Aaron

And he's like, oh, don't worry. We're not gonna pull all you off the stage. You can go twenty five. And I'm like, first of all, what is with these lax rules? Rules

Ian

are rules. Yeah. Everybody go 25, then you're gonna have it's gonna be an extra two hours at the end of the day. Like

Aaron

Unbelievable. Rules rules are not made to be broken. They're made to be followed. So, yeah. So I'll I'll probably push right up to 25 and then still not have enough time to cover Wow.

Ian

You're gonna There may be niceties there. You're gonna have to really jump in.

Aaron

I know. There's there's always time for jokes, but there's not gonna be time for, like, a lot of stories or anything.

Ian

No stories.

Aaron

There's a chance I'll do, like, ten to fifteen minutes of live coding and then Mhmm.

Ian

Five to ten

Aaron

minutes of slides to just be like, here are all the other things we can do.

Ian

Right. Because,

Aaron

you know, live coding by its nature takes a little bit longer than just, like Right. Next next next. So, yeah, that's that's my current, like, rough outline is I'll do a slide opening. Yeah. Of course.

Ian

With twenty minute talk, you can do that at coding.

Aaron

Come on. No risk. No reward. So do an opening with a few slides to to hit them with the hit them with the pizzazz right off the bat, hop into the editor, show them that it actually works, hop back out, breeze through some stuff, blow some minds, kiss some babies, shake some hands.

Ian

I like it. Yeah. That's the goal. Oh, man. Oh, man.

For you. I'm nervous.

Aaron

I'm nervous for me too. This is where the magic happens, though. When you when you're when you're down and out, you think you can't do it, this is where it happens.

Ian

You fly in Sunday or Saturday?

Aaron

Who knows? Monday morning at all. Monday morning right out to the stage. Yeah. Let's see.

What's today? No. That's not right. That's not right. Yes.

I check-in. I fly in. It looks like I get there. Oh, it's hard to say because I don't understand time zones at all, but I get there Sunday morning. Sunday morning Amsterdam time.

Yeah.

Ian

I wish you were going in Saturday.

Aaron

Cool. Me

Ian

and Yeah. Day. You know? You get that day. I hate the day.

Although, maybe you're not talking till Tuesday. Do you know for sure you're talking Monday?

Aaron

Hard to say. There's no schedule yet.

Ian

There's no schedule.

Aaron

Well, I don't

Ian

know. But you know. So you don't know.

Aaron

I don't know. So

Ian

Alright. So maybe you will have an extra day. Who knows? Maybe.

Aaron

We'll find out.

Ian

That's worse, though. You don't wanna be the extra day to be the first day of the conference. You'd rather go the first day. No. Good.

Good. I think

Aaron

I I think I would rather be early on the first day or maybe late on the second day.

Ian

Mhmm.

Aaron

Is that wild?

Ian

I I would I would never wanna be late on the second day. Voice is gonna be gone. You know, a lot talking to people in between the night, the Monday night, whatever goes on.

Aaron

Yeah. I think I would I think I would always rather go on the first day.

Ian

I'd always rather go on the first day for sure. Definitely.

Aaron

Because then then the after dark party is typically after the first

Ian

day. Steam.

Aaron

You get to clacks.

Ian

Get to hang.

Aaron

Get to go to the the loud bar and shout in each other's faces.

Ian

Can I have a $2 margarita?

Aaron

What up? A $2 mark?

Ian

That's Yeah.

Aaron

Alright. Can I go? If you're listening, I wanna go on the first day. Also, let me know when I'm going.

Ian

Can I go, like, the official full showrunner at this point here?

Aaron

That's a good question. I have

Ian

no idea. I know. Okay. No clue. Got no clue.

Talent. Just show up.

Aaron

Show up. Yep.

Ian

Tell you where to go with the day of, you will be there.

Aaron

Mic on and push me out the door, and I go out and do the thing. Yeah.

Ian

I like it. I like it.

Aaron

Kaneko is the one that's communicating with us. I am not clear if he is running, like, organizing it, or if he's just him seeing it or what. I have no idea.

Ian

Stuff happening. People will be there.

Aaron

People will be there. Yep. My job is to show up. I hope he's going there. I've been I've been in the opposite situation before.

Ian

Well, I think it'll be more than five or It'll be more than five.

Aaron

Yes. I do I do think that is correct.

Ian

I think you're in the clear there.

Aaron

Yep. I think so.

Ian

You got the you know, they still haven't made the Laracon the multitrack, so they're holding on to the single track. So

Aaron

Please hold on to the single track. Please. Please. Please. Keep the single track alive.

I don't like multitrack.

Ian

I think you could do, like, a hybrid y where, like, maybe for, like, a more one of the mornings, there's, like, a few different tracks or something. Maybe That

Aaron

would be fine with the

Ian

whole thing. You know?

Aaron

The I I like the shared experience of the single track conference.

Ian

It seems nice. You can have the the conversations with people at night are much cleaner because, you know, everybody sounds so

Aaron

context. Yeah.

Ian

The other thing about the first day is everybody's there the first day.

Aaron

The second

Ian

day, not everybody's there sometimes. People are cruising out. There's just always less people the second day. Hate that. So that's the other thing where the first day is kinda nice.

You get the maximum. Mhmm. That

Aaron

happened that happened to me at Laracon EU the first time I spoke.

Ian

Oh, really?

Aaron

I was the last speaker, and, Taylor and Abigail had left by then. I was like, god.

Ian

Oh, you freaking dang it.

Aaron

This was my big coming out party, and he was gone.

Ian

They're like, Eric, can you turn off the lights on your way out the door here, buddy?

Aaron

You don't have to sweep up, but it sure would be nice if you did the guy. Yeah.

Ian

There is a little fee if we don't sweep up. So if you could just hit it once with the broom, that'd be great.

Aaron

Yeah. That's that's too bad.

Ian

Yeah. I just saw a thing about, a lot of conferences dying off. And I think, like too. Yeah. It's like the post COVID, you would think maybe they're gonna come back, but they haven't really come back, and they're kinda going the other way.

And I don't know. I think there is something there. You're a conference guy.

Aaron

What's your take on that?

Ian

I don't know. I think it is weird. Maybe as people go back to the office, there'll be more of a tape. Because the whole thing with conferences is it's like the businesses nobody's going to pay for a conference on their own. Everybody only wants to go to conference if it's a write off.

And Right. And or it's not their money in some fashion. Right. You know, where they have some budget. It's a work vacation.

Work is sending them. So I don't know. It is a tricky case. Hard for me to kinda put myself in the big company mindset at this point, but I do think there is probably a little bit of a tricky case. Like, if you're already working from home, now we're sending this conference.

People are dubious about what you're doing to begin with sometimes, potentially. And so, like All

Aaron

you're doing is taking pictures and putting them on Twitter about partying with your friends. Like So

Ian

I don't know. Maybe as people, it seems like we're gonna be swinging back to, like, a lot of people working in the offices here. So if that happens, I could see that maybe helping. You know, some people have the theory of, like, budget tightness. I don't know if I buy too much into that because it's just, like, it's not that much money.

It's not like this is not moving the needle that much if you're, like, have some no conference edict at your company. So, like Mhmm. I don't know about that. I feel like it's a more a subtler some more, like, cultural, more people feel like they get a lot information and don't necessarily even wanna go even for the work cation. Right.

It's it's like, whatever. I have access to all these resources, all this video stuff in Dev Land. Like, everybody knows you're not learning a lot at the conference at this point. Like, you know, hopefully, you pick up a nugget or two, but you're not, like, going there. And now I know react after I come home.

You know what I mean? Like, maybe you get No. It is not. It's not wet. But

Aaron

It's not the best medium to learn hard technical stuff in-depth. Yeah.

Ian

Especially with the dev

Aaron

stuff. Has been.

Ian

Yeah. Yeah. Because I feel like marketing and stuff like that has a little advantage there because it's like, oh, I can learn about, like, this technique Yes. In thirty minutes, and now I know it. Like, I literally know the technique, and now I can go implement it.

Whereas, like, in the dev stuff, it's not really like that. It's like, if I if it's, like, a new language okay, I'm just literally getting a taste, and now I know there's a hundred hours work beyond that if I wanna actually learn it. Or even if it's in something you know, like, pretty much anything above, like, hey. This is a package that does this. Okay.

Fine. Like, now I know about that. But anything else, I'm still gonna still more work there. Still always just kind of setting you up with some knowledge as opposed

Aaron

to giving

Ian

you a complete picture of something.

Aaron

Which I think that point is the most, the most salient in terms of, like, education is it's exposing you to to something that you wouldn't per perhaps

Ian

would sign out on your own. Yeah.

Aaron

So I'm thinking back to, like, what's a good one? Like, Jake Bennett's state machines talk at I think it was maybe Laracon Nashville or maybe Laracon Dallas.

Ian

I don't know. That. Yeah. Mhmm.

Aaron

Like, I've heard about state machines. I've never sought out education on state machines.

Ian

Alright.

Aaron

But, like, watching his talk made me realize, oh, I should use state machines

Ian

more. Useful. This is really valuable. And so

Aaron

stuff like that, I think, is super valuable, a great educational reason to go to conference conferences. But I don't even think education is the reason to go to conferences. Right.

Ian

That so that brings us to, like, the main reason, which is the networking, meeting people, adjusting with your take as well. But, again, that gets weird. That's where, like, you have these solidities from the business perspective. It's like, what am I paying for? Like, I'm paying for you to pay me people.

Aaron

To go get your next

Ian

job? Right. What? I'm paying for the Yeah. To get your next job.

I'm paying for you to make these connections. Again, in other avenues, I think there's more of a pure business case. I think as a developer, I think the business case is kinda weak for, like, well, if I know these 10 other people, that's going to bring some type of tangible value back to my current job. You know? I don't know.

Maybe. Maybe.

Aaron

I I can't make the business case for it, because I don't have a bunch of employees that wanna go to a conference that I'm paying for. But I can make the personal case for it all day every day.

Ian

So that that is the hard part. Right.

Aaron

Because I think as an individual I think as an individual, you should go to as many relevant conferences as you can or as you want to. Because, like, yes, being on social networks is great because you, like, get to kinda, you know, make some friends there. But going to a conference and actually meeting the people and hanging out with them Yeah. And, like, getting to know them on, like, a personal level, that is that is 10 times better than just hanging out on Twitter. And you come back, and you're able to, like, message all these people and start these groups and start a podcast and work on projects together.

Like, you know these people. And so Yep. I think the personal case for going is maybe it's, like, maybe one of that most high leverage things you can do, like, for your career is, like, go meet the other people that are crazy enough to go to one of these conferences.

Ian

Yep. Totally agree. Definitely. All all the people I've met at conferences over the year, you just make a whole different type of connection that then did that and even helps you in social media and all these other places if you release a package, whatever. Like, having had those in person connection, those are the people who would then really, like, cheer you on the hardest a lot of times.

So, yeah, definitely, from the personal perspective, it's certainly worth doing. But then I feel like people don't necessarily wanna pony up for that. I don't know. Do they pony up personally? I wonder how many people do that.

You know?

Aaron

I don't know. It's expensive.

Ian

I'd be I'd be curious to know, like, at Laracon, how many people are paying their own way.

Aaron

Yeah. It's interesting you said, like, it helps you on social media because I do find this weird thing where it's like, oh, I met this person in, like, in real life, and I go find their Twitter, and they've got, like, 32 followers. And I'm like, it doesn't matter. I like this person. I met them.

I like them. I'm gonna follow them. We're friends now. And and it's just so interesting because I'll I'll see a stranger on Twitter, and I'll go and I'll, like, I'll click on their profile. I'll go I'll scroll their feed to be like, what do you tweet about?

Do I wanna see that? Oh, what it's such a rigorous process of, like, adding someone to my following because I don't wanna follow-up. Yeah. But then, you know, I meet somebody at a conference, and I like them. And I'm like, sure.

Yeah.

Ian

That's it.

Aaron

That's great. I love it. Yeah. Yep. Very interesting.

Ian

That's it. The other I mean, we probably talked about this before, but the other big thing about conferences, just, a lot of personal note here, you wanna try to be a speaker sometimes. Oh, yeah. You just gotta push yourself and be a speaker

Aaron

Yes.

Ian

Or in some way involved, like, if you wanna go to conferences or whatever. But, like, anytime you're in some type of elevated position at the conference, it just everything it just it just greases the wheels of everything. And everybody knows you. Everybody comes up to you. Everybody follows you on social media.

All that stuff. You get all the benefits when you are a speaker or somehow involved in the production in some way. Big big advantage. So Yep.

Aaron

What's the huge show? Advantage. Yes. Big time.

Ian

And and it never goes bad. Like, you know what I mean? Like, a handful of talks everywhere, it's like, it went bad. You know? It's like, even when it goes bad, it's not that bad.

Like, it's fine. And Even when

Aaron

it goes bad, everybody's on your side and, like, gosh. I cannot believe that happens. Like Especially

Ian

in our ecosystem, I feel like it's not like there's a lot of, like, people who then get a, you know, beat on you for being an idiot or whatever. Like, it's a pretty positive community. So, that's the thing though. There's not that many events. So that's where, like

Aaron

No.

Ian

That part's sort of tricky. There's more events, then you're more speaking slots, of course, but, obviously, Laravel Inc can only throw some money.

Aaron

We we gotta do a mostly technical comp, and it's gotta be, like, micro comp, but back in, like, 2012.

Ian

Right. Well, that's right. It's like so this is where the economics of it are very tricky with the with the reality, which is the ideal conference is, like, 90% networking. Yeah. Like, a lot of networking or, like or I think talks that are even maybe a little different format or maybe more some more impromptu kinda talks.

That used to be a big thing back in, like, early two thousands was, like, I figured it was unconferenced type things. Right? You just sign up for a room, and it's like, I'm just gonna talk about this. Like, that's how I saw the jQuery launch. He was like, hey.

I'm gonna be launching this thing. And I just went into that room, and I saw him launch jQuery. Right? And it's like

Aaron

Oh, man.

Ian

So, like, he it's like lower commitment for the speakers because it's not like your name's plastered and this is expectation. It's like, while you maybe prepared something, nobody necessarily knew you were preparing something, and you just signed up, and it's like whoever's there. So, yeah, so you want that. But then, again, how do you get people to pay for that in the future? Because, like, when you go to your boss, like, hey.

It's this conference. We're like, there there's no learning. Like, it's not

Aaron

Like, there's there's no there's no agenda.

Ian

It's it's called an unconference. It's just a hangout. Okay. It's a hangout. Hangout.

We go hang out with a bunch of people. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So it's a little tricky there, but, I mean, you can always hedge that a little bit because if you do it, like, things like do it in New York City or do it in San Francisco.

Aaron

Oh, yeah.

Ian

Like, maybe Dallas.

Aaron

Maybe Dallas.

Ian

Dallas pull it off. I don't know. But where you have a lot of developers already. So, like, just from the city, you could get the two or 300 people you need to kinda do it Yeah. Even if nobody flew in and some people will fly in.

So I think that type of thing can help. Although, it's also very expensive to do it in those big cities. So Or

Aaron

what is what is Tailwind's doing in Tailwind's doing something in Miami? That's that's conference esque, but not. Right. Right? That's like a that's like a Meetup

Ian

plus plus only. Yeah. I kinda like that for us, actually. One night only. When you get multiple days, it adds, like, four times the work.

If it's, like, one day, this is what it is. It's, like, six hours. I mean, their thing's only even gonna be this next one coming up is only gonna be, like, a hundred people or something you said too. So it's even, like, kinda just a lighter hangout sort of thing. I kinda like that.

That that could be interesting.

Aaron

Could be interesting. That.

Ian

No. Kinda like a I kinda like I really like the idea of a one day thing, actually. It's just a lot less. It's a lot less overhead.

Aaron

Yeah. That would be great. One day thing with a with a, like, pseudo official lunch the day of. So if people get in early and wanna, like, go lunch and hang out

Ian

in the

Aaron

space, then there's the event and then a pseudo, you know, official, unofficial lunch the day after. And so Yeah. Like, if you wanna

Ian

the day after.

Aaron

Stay around the day after and

Ian

Yeah.

Aaron

Go to, you know, out to lunch or to the zoo or whatever people do.

Ian

Yeah. You could do that. But, yeah, I like that. That could be a good sign.

Aaron

On that for for developers who are business people as well.

Ian

Right. Alright. Give us your comments on that down below as the kids Yeah.

Aaron

Most mostly technical comp.

Ian

Hey. So if TikTok goes away, do you care? I'm a TikTok man. I don't think we've ever talked about TikTok.

Aaron

I've never been a TikTok man.

Ian

Okay. No. I'm not a TikTok man. I'm sorry. Don't even care a little bit.

Never let the kids don't have social media accounts. I'm sure they get some social media here and there if they don't have the accounts. So doesn't matter on that front either.

Aaron

Whatever you let them have, don't let them have TikTok.

Ian

Forget the, like

Aaron

I don't I don't I don't follow enough because I don't care. They're, like, is it Chinese? I'm I'm led to believe it's some sort of Chinese spying device.

Ian

Yeah. The influence device, I think, is more of the concern.

Aaron

Device. Yes. That that is probably more accurate.

Ian

Potentially spying, I guess.

Aaron

But yeah. That that part is that part is bad. I don't have a problem with it being a Chinese app, but the fact that they're like, hey. Let's control the minds of Americans. Okay.

That's probably bad. My real my real problem with it is it is like it's a zombification tool. It just turns kids into zombies.

Ian

It is. It is. It's crazy. Rough.

Aaron

We had a babysitter one time, and we came home. We're like, hey. You know, did TV work?

Ian

Did you watch something? What did you do? I was

Aaron

like, oh, no. I just

Ian

looked at said TV. Yeah. Just looked at TikTok. We were gone for three hours. The videos were, like, thirty seconds.

Swipe, man. What are

Aaron

you doing?

Ian

Yeah. I know. I know.

Aaron

I was like, good lord. Like, I get I get being addicted, which we should talk about sometime because I have some

Ian

I

Aaron

have some new, anti addiction tools for

Ian

Oh, okay. Yeah. We can do that.

Aaron

I get I get being addicted, but, like, TikTok is is weapons grade. It is it is another level

Ian

of Yeah.

Aaron

Addiction and and brain rot in my opinion.

Ian

I tend to agree. It's also really funny. Like, this where you know, obviously whatever. I don't wanna get into the deep politics of it. But the idea of, like, when you even see the things about how, like, in China, TikTok is, like, it's, like, all educational stuff.

But yeah. And then, like, in America, obviously, it's just, like, all insane stuff. Right? It's just normal stuff too, so I'm sure I know people who use it and like it, and they're like, I don't think they're, like, necessarily on beheadings all day or whatever, but it's like you know, or crime in New York City. Right?

Or all these things that could if you push the algorithm, it's like, oh, like, if you're in the red state, we're gonna push to you how San Francisco and New York are falling apart.

Aaron

Mhmm.

Ian

And if you're in a blue state, we're gonna push to you how these hicks are doing whatever. Right? You know, whatever. So, you know, I think that is probably bad and not optimal to allow an adversarial government to do. Crazy.

Aaron

Crazy.

Ian

So yeah. I don't know. But but it is interesting seeing people like, my kids are like, oh, yeah. They're like, all our friends are totally freaking out. Like, they they can't believe it.

Like, this is the end times that, you know, TikTok's going away. So

Aaron

I I'm sure. I mean, when I when I block Twitter on my phone, I still pick it up, and I'm like, oh, shoot. It's blocked. So I get it. Like, I fully am sympathetic to that, but I think it's worth it's worth fighting that urge because it's, you know, it's not a good thing.

Ian

It's all crazy. But okay. So you're not a TikTok man, though. So you're not you're not in there. You you didn't call yourself to sleep the other night being, like, a kid's TikTok.

No. Okay. Nope. Nope. Well, what's your I don't know.

Do you wanna give us your tips or no? You wanna save that

Aaron

for another day? Day? I got a whole I got a whole thing on getting my brain back. But here's here's what I'll we can end on. It's it's slightly different, but I wanna get your take on it as the godfather.

Ian

Got it.

Aaron

I have a theory about, so I was on, somebody's podcast the other day talking about PHP and, like, you know, why it's still here, like, like, shape of the community, that sort of thing.

Ian

Mhmm. And just

Aaron

out of out of the clear blue sky, I came up with this concept of the, like, the evolutionary pressure that shaped the PHP community into what it is today. And I stated that that evolutionary pressure was, PHP has never been cool. Like, it's never been the cool kids that use PHP. Cool kids have always been probably Ruby and then now JavaScript.

Ian

Yeah. Mhmm.

Aaron

And so that evolutionary pressure has led the PHP community primarily to care about, shipping things and putting things out there versus being, like, super into the way that our ecosystem, like, does a certain, you know, engineering type thing.

Ian

Right.

Aaron

So my my stipulation and this is what I want your take on. My stipulation is that the PHP community is very much a, hacker's community and a community of, like, predominantly, like, product builders and not, technological naval gazers. What is your response?

Ian

I totally agree. I think it's, I think it's people who are not necessary for various reasons, I don't think it's only, like, product shipping, but I think it's people who are not necessarily concerned as a top priority. I won't not not not at all, but as a top priority of, like, let's call it, like, code, sophistication, or, like, even quality, let's say. Not they want their code to be bad. They are not like, boy, what is the optimal pattern

Aaron

Mhmm.

Ian

For optimal performance of this. When I show it to my friends, they're gonna be very proud of how smart I was, the biggest like, that's not the vibe it's generally had. It's more like, yeah, what this is a tool. So how can I use this tool to do the thing I want to do? And sometimes tools are imperfect and the person using them is imperfect, And we're okay with all that because we're not primarily concerned with the tool in and of itself.

We're concerned with being able to do whatever it is we wanna do, and it being flexible. That's where, like, it you know, PHP hasn't really broken too much over the years because it kinda leans into that. Like,

Aaron

it's Yeah.

Ian

Spending this, like, it stayed alive by being like, hey. If we break it for everybody, then that's gonna be the point where people will be like, well, maybe I should just use Ruby.

Aaron

Mhmm.

Ian

This is the time because it's gonna be hard to do this next upgrade, so I should just look for something else instead. And no. It's like we just keep it making it easy for the most part with a few little exceptions. And, yeah, and big deal with things like WordPress that I think have been super important, and that feeds in, like, this, like, basic CMS thing that feeds into, like, people can just pick it up. And they start by using CMS, but they wanna do something, so they pick up a little PHP.

And Mhmm. That's, like, a nice community where you can do that, and people aren't yelling at you that you're an idiot because you're not you know, your code isn't sophisticated enough and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I totally agree. And I think it's a working futures language. It's a working yeah.

It's like your it's like the tool belt of your Mhmm. Carpenter kinda thing. You know? It's, like, practical and functional. It is weird.

I do think it there's always this pressure, and you see it obviously now. Like, it used to be the Ruby people. Now it's the JavaScript people are like, no. No. No.

Like, perfection is important. We gotta have the the lay the TypeScript on top of the JavaScript on top of the thing. It's all gotta be perfect and structured frameworks and this and all the stuff. You know, everybody needs to get paid $500,000 to make this code because you have to know 8,000,000 things to do it. And, like, there's, like, that energy there a lot, I feel like.

Right? And yeah. So, hopefully, PHP still has a bright future. Share. I I would hate for it to go away because I love the PHP, and I love this vibe it has.

And Oh, it's not going

Aaron

it's not going anywhere. It's only getting stronger.

Ian

That's what I hope. That's what it seems like.

Aaron

I've got that.

Ian

I think

Aaron

that is I think that is Laravel is PHP at this point, just so everybody's clear. WordPress is something WordPress

Ian

is something WordPress is still a

Aaron

lot of it. Different. It is written in PHP, but it is fundamentally different than, like, PHP, the programming language.

Ian

It's unfortunate. You see, it's it's actually I mean, WordPress and Laravel are kinda the same thing because everybody uses WordPress as a framework. Like, WordPress is just a framework for different types of tools. Right? And so, like, I wish WordPress wasn't sort of losing its mind.

And, I mean, how if it's really losing its mind lately? But even before that, it's always kinda kept to itself. I feel like it's its own little world.

Aaron

Own ecosystem for sure.

Ian

And I feel like it would be nicer if, like, WordPress and Laravel were somehow not the whole, like, put WordPress on Laravel thing, but just, like, the ecosystem wide. I feel like there's something there to, like, getting those worlds together more, in some way because those are the two big tentpole

Aaron

Yeah.

Ian

Brain worms.

Aaron

I don't know.

Ian

Essentially. I don't I don't buy it. It's out of the way.

Aaron

They're great. I'm happy for them,

Ian

but I

Aaron

don't think Yeah. I don't think the, near the train shall meet. I don't I don't think they'll

Ian

I don't know about that. I think I know I've I think I've heard Taylor talk about this, and I think it is an issue in general is that when you have people how do you get the next developers? Right? So, like, we're all here. That's the problem.

Developers. Yeah. Right. And so, like, to me, like, WordPress is the most natural path into PHP even more than Laravel because that's where you get just a pure tinkerer. Like, I was using this thing.

I ran this website. Now I need to do something. And okay. Let me figure out how this works to go into this template. I see these functions.

I figure out what all that means, and I can tweak it and whatever. You know, Laravel's already a step above that. It's like, okay. I have to, like I want I have a whole idea for something that's already a full, more complete idea. I'm gonna use this framework to build it.

We have to understand a fair amount of stuff kind of already and still way lower requirement than, like, if you wanna do a JavaScript based, version. But I do feel like for that getting people from the grassroots, that that's kind of an interesting path. Whereas, like, the JavaScript angle. I think that's where, like, schools are gonna go to. It's like, oh, if you wanna be a professional developer, you're gonna do all this JavaScript y stuff.

And that's gonna be those kind of things. But I don't know. PHP's ever gonna work. PHP's never been the language of The college. SaaS.

Right? And even the boot camps and things like that. So I think you need a way in and, like, to me, WordPress is that way in. So there's something there. Maybe I don't know.

Laravel not having its own WordPress fully. Like, you have the paid CMSs. Mhmm. And then there are obviously open source CMSs on Laravel, but none of them are obviously, you know, the tiniest fraction of WordPress. So I don't know.

Something there.

Aaron

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if that I don't know if I buy that that's the route people take. I think if

Ian

Mhmm.

Aaron

I I feel like building something on a CMS and building an app, I feel like are different paths in people's minds. So, like, if you're gonna build something on a CMS, you might pick WordPress. Although this these days, you'll probably pick who knows what Webflow, Squarespace, whatever any

Ian

of these other ones are.

Aaron

And if you're gonna, like, if you're like, I wanna build a SaaS or some sort of application, you're gonna pick next on Supabase or some one of these other things. I think the challenge is not, like, Laravel getting over to get those, you know, content system starters. It's getting those Next JS starters. And I think, you know, they just hired Tony I think his name is Lee, Tony Le

Ian

Right.

Aaron

To build starter kits. And I think that, like, that's what people

Ian

want. Right.

Aaron

And I I continually am, like, slapped in the face by this because I continually think people wanna learn things deeply. And then I look at what's selling and, you know, in the broad ecosystem, and it's like, this starter kit sold 4,500 copies at $300 each. And I'm like, oh, people don't wanna learn things. They just wanna have things done for them. That's

Ian

interesting. They like it. They like it.

Aaron

So I think the starter kits are gonna go a long way. And and

Ian

Tell me, though. I I I think I do have a different view of that, honestly. Yeah. Because to me, the starter kit isn't for people who don't know how to program and are just learning or have an idea. Like, they they can be for that, but they don't even know that exists.

Like, the starter kit like, I would buy a starter kit because it's like, hey. I know all this bullshit template stuff. I like, all the, like, boilerplate crap that is super annoying, and I just wanna get to the part where I get right to my business logic. And I don't wanna build the login, and I don't wanna build the page log in. Manage staff and all that an invite system and all the stuff.

Right? I just don't wanna do any of that. I wanna have I wanna get all the way as deep as I can into the business logic. Because most of the time, I don't even finish these projects. And the closer I get to actually doing the part that's the part that the thing is gonna do that's custom, the closer I am to actually shipping something versus, like, spending two weeks on all the stuff you need to even do to get to the part where you do the business logic.

So I kinda feel like the people who are new to programming or newish to programming, that that's not even like a they're still a step behind that. Like, they thought to get their feet wet or a taste for it someplace else first.

Aaron

Know. I watch these people that, like, follow Mark Liu, the the ship fast guy. I don't know

Ian

if Wow. You've heard of this.

Aaron

I I don't do not follow him, but I know who he is. Okay. And I feel like he is basically he's like a kinda like a Peter Levels that can code a little bit better. Mhmm. And his whole vibe is, like, he's got the whole, like, ship anything you want and do a hundred projects in a week and see what works.

Right. And he sells a starter kit, and that's the one I'm referencing that sold, like, 4,500 copies or something. And I think from what I can tell from the outside, his audience is primarily, like, people that are very new to programming or haven't been programming at all. And they buy a starter kit and then kinda, like, use AI and whatever else, like, hack around inside of this, like, starter kit framework.

Ian

That's even something kinda different, don't you think? Because it's like, that's not if he just released a starter kit and didn't build the audience of people who aren't programmers but wanna be, it would do nothing. Right? So, like, Laravel could ship a bunch of starter kits, but I think most of the people using these Laravel starter kits are gonna be people who already know Laravel.

Aaron

Already use Laravel.

Ian

Yeah. Maybe 95% people know Laravel. They're like, great. Like, I'd like Jetstream. And now this is, like, a step beyond Jetstream where I can Right.

Have, like, big chunk of my app ready to go of all the boilerplate crap. And now I can just get to the business logic, and I don't have to do all that stuff anymore. And or, or, you know, I'm building a back office system, or I don't care if it looks like every other Laravel app. Who cares? Like, it's fine because I just needed to do what I needed to do, and I can skip all those steps.

And I'm sure you get some new people in there, but I think they need a guide like that who's like, hey. You wanna learn to program? This is the best place to learn to program. Right? And, yes, we have the starter kit and AI tools and Lara Cat.

We have all this stuff. Right? Like, we have all the courses and whatever to help you once you decide you wanna do it, but we have to get the people

Aaron

I'll do that.

Ian

I'll do that. Know they wanna do that. Yeah. They get the people for us. Oh, yeah.

Doing that. I'm working on it, Ian. I'm working on it.

Aaron

What do

Ian

you think I'm doing over here? Your audience, though. That's not in

Aaron

your stick. It's not. No.

Ian

That would be a change of sticks. Yeah. I don't know. Can you change your stick like that under the Aaron Francis banner? I think it's a little tricky to run two sticks.

Aaron

It's tricky to run two sticks. The sticks are malleable, though. And as long as long as we're not, you know, as long as we're a half step off of the current schtick, it's fine. Yeah. I don't wanna be I don't wanna be the, like, ship fast, ship crap, throw stuff against the wall guy.

That's never gonna work because I don't actually believe any of that. Right. I do believe ship fast, but I think you should take pride in what you do because this is your one wildlife. But, you know, I don't know. I think I could get I could get to a place where I'm, like, bringing net new developers into Clearwell.

I have historically occupied the lane of teaching intermediates more advanced things, which I enjoy, but, you know, the market for that was small in charging.

Ian

Right. There's a bigger market elsewhere. I actually think the Peter leveled coding style is actually the superior for getting new people in. Because, like, PHP, that's, like, the real beauty of PHP. Right?

It's like, hey. Take this one file. Yeah. Throw it on a server. Learn how to FTP it to a server, right, or do some upload thing.

And, oh, you can output something dynamically. Okay. Then you can learn how to do the next thing. And the next thing, it's all in this one file. Right?

And, like, that's, like, where you can think somebody in who wasn't a computer science major or whatever and all stuff. Because, like, once you get down into class, you know, you get that starts to get fairly complicated pretty quickly. And especially once now GitHub, oh, we're gonna use React, and we're gonna have an API, and then we're gonna talk to API, whatever. Like and even things like Livewire or whatever. Like, it all it requires the mental model of what's going on, which is pretty hard to grasp early on, I think, for a lot of people.

Like, if you don't really understand HTML and the server and how the network isn't Yep. Interconnected between them and stuff like there's a lot there that you have to learn before you're gonna really even be able to

Aaron

do Yes. You're 50 layers of abstraction.

Ian

Mhmm.

Aaron

So it's gonna be hard to bring somebody up to speed.

Ian

The more you're like, hey. This is just a thing on a server. You just edit the thing on the server. It's produced on the server. Yep.

That's kinda and you point your browser at it. You know, like, that for the very early people. Obviously, pretty quickly you move past that and then whatever you layer up from there. But, like, yeah, that real baseline of, like, how do I get people in? Like, even Laravel, like, it's gonna be very hard for somebody who's never programmed to start with Laravel.

Yeah. You know, because there's just a lot you kinda have to know. And so I do think there's something there. There's a spot there in our world for that for sure. Yep.

So maybe it'll be the Aaron Francis will be there.

Aaron

Maybe so. Maybe project x or, this thing I'm announcing at Lyric Honey U. Maybe that'll be a step in that direction.

Ian

Maybe it will be. Who knows? We don't know.

Aaron

We don't know. We call that foreshadowing, folks. It's a literary device. Alright. Else.

Ian

No. I think you're good.

Aaron

That was a as far as mostly goes, that was mostly technical.

Ian

It's mostly technical.

Aaron

Yeah.

Ian

Well, people can't complain. They got they got several weeks now. This should hold them over.

Aaron

Yeah. They

Ian

got a little technical. They got

Aaron

a little how to make friends up front, but then we went mostly technical.

Ian

Yeah. Exactly. Alright. Thanks, everybody. I'm not reading the stuff.

We're done reading the stuff. Go to mostlytechnical.com. That's it. All the stuff's linked from there. Everything you possibly want, that's where it is.

Aaron

If you can't find us, that's on you.

Ian

We don't want your business then. Alright? Yeah. We're a higher level dev right now. Exactly.

Alright. See you later. Alright. Bye. Thanks, everybody.

Bye.